41 replies to this topic

[MJ82]

Hello all,

 

I could really do with some advice and support - and also feedback on the regime I am following for benzo withdrawal.

 

My background: I have been intermittently on Lexotanil for the last few years - probably no more than a couple of months at any one time. The last round (and I will never return to this poisonous drug) was about a month ago when I tapered off under the guidance of my prescribing psychiatrist, after having been on up to a maximum of 4.5mg as needed at any one time, intermittently, over a period of two months most recently.

 

My withdrawal symptoms compared to others are not severe in one sense (i.e. physically I am fine), though very troubling to me in another sense (mentally, emotionally). These include:

 

- Occasional mild burning sensations on my face that come and go

- Impaired cognitive functioning, poor memory and recall - some days are worse than others

- Some days my mood is in the toilet and I feel terribly depressed - it feels neuro-chemical.

- Anhedonia, I don't feel pleasure, joy or love very much at all some days and am not my normal self 

- Emotional blunting (I have been crying a lot lately, though some days I simply can't even connect to my feelings i.e. I feel flat/numb)

 

 

The last two are constant and the others come in waves.

 

What I am doing so far to assist in withdrawal is cardio exercise at least a few times a week (average 30 mins), maintaining a healthy diet (which has never been a problem) and I am taking various supplements, which include the following daily regimen below:

 

- Turmeric (400 mg)

- Omega 3 (2000 mg)

- Ginkgo (80 mg)

- Sharp Thought (contains PS-DHA - phosphatidylserine - 1 capsule = 223 mg)

- Multivitamin 

- B50 Complex

- Magnesium (100 mg)

- Alpha Lipoic Acid 100 mg, include Vit C & E)

- Probiotic capsule (50 billion)

- L-Tyrosine (500 mg)

- 5-HTP (50 mg)

 

I know there are other supplements and herbs etc that people do take to boost GABA, but I am wary of this as (in my limited understanding), this is only a temporary fix that can recycle the same problems down the line - artificial sources of GABA cause GABA receptors to further down-regulate? 

 

I am really keen to know a few things: 

 

Firstly, are there supplements/herbs etc that one can take to re-sensitise the brain's GABA receptors? 

 

What else can assist with brain repair and healing - especially as it relates to anhedonia and emotional blunting? I have read about the glutamate theory/association with anhedonia and have read that some find NAC helps because it lowers glutamate. I just don't want to mess with my brain chemistry any further without knowing how things work and cause and effect. For example, would CDP-choline help or is it risky?

 

Any advice would be much appreciated. Please only respond if you have information relating to my questions above. I have read many horror stories but also success stories and I do believe I will heal eventually. 

 

Thanks.

MJ

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by MJ82, 19 March 2018 - 10:49 AM.

[Eryximachus]

I would recommend Seroquel 50mg per night to start, increasing as necessary so that you sleep.  It will not fully take the edge off, but it helps a lot and you WILL sleep well. If you are worried about weight gain, take 2x per day 500mg of metformin.  

 

I would also take some kind of beta blocker. 

 

Seroquel will make you drowsy/slow for a couple of weeks. I would give it 8 weeks before you stop it.  Gabapentin is the next best choice after seroquel, but could prolong withdrawals. 

 

There really is nothing else but time.  

 

If you can't get a psychiatrist to get you this stuff, it's all available from the Indian pharmacies like ReliableRX.  Dirt cheap. They have the XR version of Seroquel, which is patented and expensive. You don't need it.  

Edited by Eryximachus, 19 March 2018 - 05:21 PM.

[BioHacker=Life]

You have PAWS. Take flumazenil if you have not used benzos for a month and it will reverse what your describing.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3102259

 

Eur J Pharmacol. 1986 Dec 2;132(1):31-8. Periodic benzodiazepine antagonist administration prevents benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms...

 

" Every third day administration of the benzodiazepine antagonist, Ro15-1788, during a similar period of continuous diazepam exposure, significantly decreases withdrawal behaviors."

" It is postulated that physical dependence reverts to a drug naive state after each exposure to the benzodiazepine antagonist. This treatment may represent a possible therapeutic approach for preventing the (time dependent) development of physical dependence and the accompanying severe withdrawal symptoms."

 

Looks like low doses taken early on with benzos may help prevent dependence and withdrawals effects. Amazing!

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/22291380

 

 

J Psychopharmacol. 1992 Jan;6(3):357-63. doi: 10.1177/026988119200600303.

A pilot study of the effects of flumazenil on symptoms persisting after benzodiazepinewithdrawal.

 

The potential of the benzodiazepine antagonist flumazenil (Ro 15-1788) to lessen persisting benzodiazepine withdrawalsymptoms was demonstrated in 11 patients who had been drug free for between 1 month and 5 years. Doses ranging from 0.2 to 2.0 mg divided into three intravenous injections over a few hours relieved long-standing symptoms to varying extents. These included clouded thinking, tiredness, muscular symptoms such as neck tension, cramps and shaking and the characteristic perceptual symptoms of benzodiazepine withdrawal, namely, pins and needles, burning skin, pain and subjective sensations of bodily distortion. Mood disorder, when present, also improved but the reduction in anxiety and depression may have reflected relief of physical symptoms. The onset of maximum response was sometimes delayed by as much as a day but was usually prompt. Side effects were reported to be either absent or typically described as lightheadedness or dizziness, lasted only a few minutes and were usually well tolerated. The benefits last between a few hours and several days despite flumazenil's otherwise short duration of action. However, symptoms did return to varying degrees in most cases, suggesting the need for repeated doses.

 

 

Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2010 Aug;96(2):148-51. doi: 10.1016/j.pbb.2010.04.023. Epub 2010 May 6.

Reduction of aggression during benzodiazepine withdrawal: effects of flumazenil.

 

Benzodiazepine withdrawal has been associated with hostile and aggressive behavior. The benzodiazepine antagonist flumazenil has reduced, increased or not affected hostility and aggression in animal and human studies. In the present study we analyzed data collected in a placebo-controlled study of the effects of the benzodiazepine antagonist flumazenil in patients previously treated for benzodiazepine dependency, and healthy controls. The aim was to analyze the effects of flumazenil on hostility and aggression. Ten patients and 10 controls received, on two separate occasions, cumulative doses of flumazenil (0.05, 0.1, 0.25, 0.5 and 1mg at 15min intervals) or placebo. Withdrawal symptoms were rated after each injection. Patients had been free from benzodiazepines for 47 (4-266) weeks on the first occasion. A three-way interaction (groupxtreatmentxdose) was found, and was explained by: 1) patients rating aggression and hostility higher than controls at all times during placebo, while 2) during the flumazenil provocation i) the initial significant difference between patients and controls was no longer significant above the 0.5mg dose, and ii) patients rated aggression and hostility significantly lower above the 0.5mg dose compared to base-line. The results suggest that self-rated aggression and hostility in patients treated for benzodiazepine dependency was reduced by the partial benzodiazepine agonist flumazenil.

 

 

Addict Biol. 2002 Oct;7(4):385-95.

Intravenous flumazenil versus oxazepam tapering in the treatment of benzodiazepine withdrawal: a randomized, placebo-controlled study.

 

Flumazenil (FLU), a benzodiazepine (BZD) partial agonist with a weak intrinsic activity, was previously found unable to precipitate withdrawal in tolerant subjects submitted to long-lasting BZD treatment. The potential use of FLU to treat BZD withdrawal symptoms has also been evaluated tentatively in clinical studies. In the present experiment, FLU (treatment A) was compared with oxazepam tapering (treatment B) and placebo (treatment C) in the control of BZD withdrawal symptoms in three groups of BZD dependent patients. Group A patients (20) received FLU 1 mg twice a day for 8 days, and oxazepam 30 mg in two divided doses (15 mg + 15 mg) during the first night, oxazepam 15 mg during the second night and oxazepam 7.5 mg during the third night. FLU was injected i.v. in saline for 4 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the afternoon, in association with placebotablets. Group B patients (20) were treated by tapering of oxazepam dosage (from 120 mg) and with saline solution (as placebo) instead of FLU for 8 days. Group C patients (10) received saline instead of FLU and placebo tablets instead of oxazepam for 8 days. FLU immediately reversed BZD effects on balance task and significantly reduced withdrawal symptoms in comparison with oxazepam and placebo on both self-reported and observer-rated withdrawal scales. The partial agonist also reduced craving scores during the detoxification procedure. In addition, during oxazepam tapering, group B patients experienced paradoxical symptoms that were not apparent in FLU patients. Patients treated with FLU showed a significantly lower relapse rates on days 15, 23 and 30 after the detoxification week. Our data provide further evidence of FLUs ability to counteract BZD effects, control BZD withdrawal and normalize BZD receptor function. The effectiveness of FLU may reflect its capacity to upregulate BZD receptors and to reverse the uncoupling between the recognition sites of BZD and GABA, on the GABA(A) macromolecular complex, that has been reported in tolerant subjects.

 

Psychopharmacology (Berl). 1997 May;131(2):153-60.

Effects of flumazenil in the treatment of benzodiazepine withdrawal--a double-blind pilot study.

 

Flumazenil, a partial benzodiazepine agonist with low intrinsic activity, was tested for potential use in patients experiencing withdrawal symptoms after traditional treatment for benzodiazepine dependency. On two occasions, separated by 1-13 weeks, ten patients treated for benzodiazepine dependency and ten controls received cumulative doses of flumazenil (0.05, 0.10, 0.25, 0.50 and 1.00 mg at 15-min intervals) or placebo, with assessments of withdrawal symptoms and physiological variables after each dose. As expected, there was an overall difference between patients and controls, with patients scoring higher on negative and somatic items and lower on positive psychological items. Flumazenil reduced symptoms thought to be important in withdrawal in patients treated for benzodiazepine dependency. In contrast to the patient group, controls reacted in the opposite direction with increases in negative experience when given flumazenil. Further research may develop flumazenil as a therapeutic option in the treatment of benzodiazepine withdrawal.

 

[Voulezvous]

Do you know of a method using flumazenil if benzos haven’t been discontinued?
I was having great success decreasing from 4 mg daily Xanax to only one, at night.
But I didn’t stick it out very long. I’m back to 3 mg Xanax a day. I’d really love to quit.

I’m not a candidate for treatment for overdose. Just built up tolerance.

Edited by Voulezvous, 20 March 2018 - 05:26 AM.

[BioHacker=Life]

Do you know of a method using flumazenil if benzos haven’t been discontinued?
I was having great success decreasing from 4 mg daily Xanax to only one, at night.
But I didn’t stick it out very long. I’m back to 3 mg Xanax a day. I’d really love to quit.

I’m not a candidate for treatment for overdose. Just built up tolerance.

 

Yeah there's a few studies on it it would get you back to your native or baseline dose so probably 1 mg.

 

Here's one interesting one.

 

Eur J Pharmacol. 1986 Dec 2;132(1):31-8. Periodic benzodiazepine antagonist administration prevents benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms in...

 

" Every third day administration of the benzodiazepine antagonist, Ro15-1788, during a similar period of continuous diazepam exposure, significantly decreases withdrawal behaviors."

" It is postulated that physical dependence reverts to a drug naive state after each exposure to the benzodiazepine antagonist. This treatment may represent a possible therapeutic approach for preventing the (time dependent) development of physical dependence and the accompanying severe withdrawal symptoms."

[Voulezvous]

Thank you!

[Voulezvous]

Flumazanil and Ro15-1788 are synonymous?

[BioHacker=Life]

Yep.

[MJ82]

Thank you for the replies.

I am really interested in knowing whether any of the supplements I am taking will have an adverse effect of downregulating other neurotransmitter receptors I.e. serotonin and dopamine if I stay on them? Particularly L-Tyrosine and 5-HTP?

I do not want to create more problems for myself..

[Voulezvous]

I have L-Tyrosine but I haven’t been very good about sticking with it. I’ve used 5-HTP in the past but once the bottle was empty I didn’t replace it, and honestly never noticed anything either way. But taking them together might be another story.
I wish I had something more helpful to say.

Thank you for the replies.

I am really interested in knowing whether any of the supplements I am taking will have an adverse effect of downregulating other neurotransmitter receptors I.e. serotonin and dopamine if I stay on them? Particularly L-Tyrosine and 5-HTP?

I do not want to create more problems for myself..

[Eryximachus]

flumazenil does not have a good track record for success, and most psychiatrists do not use it. Recovery clinics use it, but relapse is common and PAWS type issues tend to persist.  

 

 

[BioHacker=Life]

flumazenil does not have a good track record for success, and most psychiatrists do not use it. Recovery clinics use it, but relapse is common and PAWS type issues tend to persist.  

 

? You seem to not be aware of what it does. No most psychiatrists don't prescribe an IV drug normally used for overdose or detox. If you had hyperinsomina you can get it prescribed.

 

Has far as PAWS goes it's been shown to be effective. I think it would be much more effective if taken chronically to upreg the receptors more meaningfully based on the mode of action studies. But here are some of the PAWS ones which showed it was effective and safe.

 

 

Eur J Pharmacol. 1986 Dec 2;132(1):31-8. Periodic benzodiazepine antagonist administration prevents benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms in.

" Every third day administration of the benzodiazepine antagonist, Ro15-1788, during a similar period of continuous diazepam exposure, significantly decreases withdrawal behaviors."

" It is postulated that physical dependence reverts to a drug naive state after each exposure to the benzodiazepine antagonist. This treatment may represent a possible therapeutic approach for preventing the (time dependent) development of physical dependence and the accompanying severe withdrawal symptoms."

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/22291380

 

 

J Psychopharmacol. 1992 Jan;6(3):357-63. doi: 10.1177/026988119200600303.

A pilot study of the effects of flumazenil on symptoms persisting after benzodiazepinewithdrawal.

 

The potential of the benzodiazepine antagonist flumazenil (Ro 15-1788) to lessen persisting benzodiazepine withdrawalsymptoms was demonstrated in 11 patients who had been drug free for between 1 month and 5 years. Doses ranging from 0.2 to 2.0 mg divided into three intravenous injections over a few hours relieved long-standing symptoms to varying extents. These included clouded thinking, tiredness, muscular symptoms such as neck tension, cramps and shaking and the characteristic perceptual symptoms of benzodiazepine withdrawal, namely, pins and needles, burning skin, pain and subjective sensations of bodily distortion. Mood disorder, when present, also improved but the reduction in anxiety and depression may have reflected relief of physical symptoms. The onset of maximum response was sometimes delayed by as much as a day but was usually prompt. Side effects were reported to be either absent or typically described as lightheadedness or dizziness, lasted only a few minutes and were usually well tolerated. The benefits last between a few hours and several days despite flumazenil's otherwise short duration of action.

 

 

Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2010 Aug;96(2):148-51. doi: 10.1016/j.pbb.2010.04.023. Epub 2010 May 6.

Reduction of aggression during benzodiazepine withdrawal: effects of flumazenil.

 

Benzodiazepine withdrawal has been associated with hostile and aggressive behavior. The benzodiazepine antagonist flumazenil has reduced, increased or not affected hostility and aggression in animal and human studies. In the present study we analyzed data collected in a placebo-controlled study of the effects of the benzodiazepine antagonist flumazenil in patients previously treated for benzodiazepine dependency, and healthy controls. The aim was to analyze the effects of flumazenil on hostility and aggression. Ten patients and 10 controls received, on two separate occasions, cumulative doses of flumazenil (0.05, 0.1, 0.25, 0.5 and 1mg at 15min intervals) or placebo. Withdrawal symptoms were rated after each injection. Patients had been free from benzodiazepines for 47 (4-266) weeks on the first occasion. A three-way interaction (groupxtreatmentxdose) was found, and was explained by: 1) patients rating aggression and hostility higher than controls at all times during placebo, while 2) during the flumazenil provocation i) the initial significant difference between patients and controls was no longer significant above the 0.5mg dose, and ii) patients rated aggression and hostility significantly lower above the 0.5mg dose compared to base-line. The results suggest that self-rated aggression and hostility in patients treated for benzodiazepine dependency was reduced by the partial benzodiazepine agonist flumazenil.

 

 

Addict Biol. 2002 Oct;7(4):385-95.

Intravenous flumazenil versus oxazepam tapering in the treatment of benzodiazepine withdrawal: a randomized, placebo-controlled study.

 

Flumazenil (FLU), a benzodiazepine (BZD) partial agonist with a weak intrinsic activity, was previously found unable to precipitate withdrawal in tolerant subjects submitted to long-lasting BZD treatment. The potential use of FLU to treat BZD withdrawal symptoms has also been evaluated tentatively in clinical studies. In the present experiment, FLU (treatment A) was compared with oxazepam tapering (treatment B) and placebo (treatment C) in the control of BZD withdrawal symptoms in three groups of BZD dependent patients. Group A patients (20) received FLU 1 mg twice a day for 8 days, and oxazepam 30 mg in two divided doses (15 mg + 15 mg) during the first night, oxazepam 15 mg during the second night and oxazepam 7.5 mg during the third night. FLU was injected i.v. in saline for 4 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the afternoon, in association with placebotablets. Group B patients (20) were treated by tapering of oxazepam dosage (from 120 mg) and with saline solution (as placebo) instead of FLU for 8 days. Group C patients (10) received saline instead of FLU and placebo tablets instead of oxazepam for 8 days. FLU immediately reversed BZD effects on balance task and significantly reduced withdrawal symptoms in comparison with oxazepam and placebo on both self-reported and observer-rated withdrawal scales. The partial agonist also reduced craving scores during the detoxification procedure. In addition, during oxazepam tapering, group B patients experienced paradoxical symptoms that were not apparent in FLU patients. Patients treated with FLU showed a significantly lower relapse rates on days 15, 23 and 30 after the detoxification week. Our data provide further evidence of FLUs ability to counteract BZD effects, control BZD withdrawal and normalize BZD receptor function. The effectiveness of FLU may reflect its capacity to upregulate BZD receptors and to reverse the uncoupling between the recognition sites of BZD and GABA, on the GABA(A) macromolecular complex, that has been reported in tolerant subjects.

 

Psychopharmacology (Berl). 1997 May;131(2):153-60.

Effects of flumazenil in the treatment of benzodiazepine withdrawal--a double-blind pilot study.

 

Flumazenil, a partial benzodiazepine agonist with low intrinsic activity, was tested for potential use in patients experiencing withdrawal symptoms after traditional treatment for benzodiazepine dependency. On two occasions, separated by 1-13 weeks, ten patients treated for benzodiazepine dependency and ten controls received cumulative doses of flumazenil (0.05, 0.10, 0.25, 0.50 and 1.00 mg at 15-min intervals) or placebo, with assessments of withdrawal symptoms and physiological variables after each dose. As expected, there was an overall difference between patients and controls, with patients scoring higher on negative and somatic items and lower on positive psychological items. Flumazenil reduced symptoms thought to be important in withdrawal in patients treated for benzodiazepine dependency. In contrast to the patient group, controls reacted in the opposite direction with increases in negative experience when given flumazenil.

[Voulezvous]

Is flumazenil approved for hyperinsomnia?
I talked to my psychiatrist about it yesterday for Xanax tolerance, for both anxiety and sleep. He wasn’t interested or willing. I gave up on ambien a long time ago, so he wanted to try it again.

I wonder if it doesn’t go well, if I’m persistent about flumazenil next month- if it’s approved, he might agree to try it. But definitely only if it’s an accepted treatment for hyperinsomnia.

Do you know?

[Voulezvous]

I’m wondering if flumazenil would reset tolerance of Ambien as well. I found this, haven’t read it yet but I thought someone might be interested.

https://dc.uthsc.edu...t=dissertations

[BioHacker=Life]

Is flumazenil approved for hyperinsomnia?
I talked to my psychiatrist about it yesterday for Xanax tolerance, for both anxiety and sleep. He wasn’t interested or willing. I gave up on ambien a long time ago, so he wanted to try it again.

I wonder if it doesn’t go well, if I’m persistent about flumazenil next month- if it’s approved, he might agree to try it. But definitely only if it’s an accepted treatment for hyperinsomnia.

Do you know?

 

No it's an offlabel usually. It's been studied for it and it's been in the press.

 

https://www.cnn.com/...ired/index.html

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...nil hypersomnia

 

Usually made by compounding pharmacies in a topical cream or sublingual form. I'm using the sublingual liquid I got from an RC supplier.

 

I'd say don't wait and try it now why suffer when you could find out pretty quickly if it works for you.

[BioHacker=Life]

I’m wondering if flumazenil would reset tolerance of Ambien as well. I found this, haven’t read it yet but I thought someone might be interested.

https://dc.uthsc.edu...t=dissertations

 

Found what I read it would work on any drug that affects GABA-A. I definitely slept better in years after my first dose.

[Voulezvous]

I misunderstood. I thought you were saying hyper-INsomnia. Ha ha. I have extreme insomnia. Sleeping pills don’t work anymore on me. This is one of the main reasons I want to decrease my tolerance of Xanax, hoping it would work again for sleep.

Is flumazenil approved for hyperinsomnia?
I talked to my psychiatrist about it yesterday for Xanax tolerance, for both anxiety and sleep. He wasn’t interested or willing. I gave up on ambien a long time ago, so he wanted to try it again.

I wonder if it doesn’t go well, if I’m persistent about flumazenil next month- if it’s approved, he might agree to try it. But definitely only if it’s an accepted treatment for hyperinsomnia.

Do you know?

No it's an offlabel usually. It's been studied for it and it's been in the press.

https://www.cnn.com/...ired/index.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm...nil hypersomnia

Usually made by compounding pharmacies in a topical cream or sublingual form. I'm using the sublingual liquid I got from an RC supplier.

I'd say don't wait and try it now why suffer when you could find out pretty quickly if it works for you.

[Eryximachus]

 

flumazenil does not have a good track record for success, and most psychiatrists do not use it. Recovery clinics use it, but relapse is common and PAWS type issues tend to persist.  

 

? You seem to not be aware of what it does. No most psychiatrists don't prescribe an IV drug normally used for overdose or detox. If you had hyperinsomina you can get it prescribed.

 

Has far as PAWS goes it's been shown to be effective. I think it would be much more effective if taken chronically to upreg the receptors more meaningfully based on the mode of action studies. But here are some of the PAWS ones which showed it was effective and safe.

 

 

Eur J Pharmacol. 1986 Dec 2;132(1):31-8. Periodic benzodiazepine antagonist administration prevents benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms in.

" Every third day administration of the benzodiazepine antagonist, Ro15-1788, during a similar period of continuous diazepam exposure, significantly decreases withdrawal behaviors."

" It is postulated that physical dependence reverts to a drug naive state after each exposure to the benzodiazepine antagonist. This treatment may represent a possible therapeutic approach for preventing the (time dependent) development of physical dependence and the accompanying severe withdrawal symptoms."

 

 

I am well aware of what it does. You're citing a medical journal article that was probably published before you were born. I mean, 1986? Really?  

 

Find me something from the 21st century. 

 

Bottom line: benzo withdrawal is not that bad. For most people who use therapeutic doses, even for years, there is no withdrawal. For abuse, not much seems to help but time. 

 

PAWS itself appears to be an internet driven phenomenon.  Benzos were brought to market not long after antibiotics.  We've got 60 years of history here, and not until BenzoBuddies came out did the world start freaking out that suddenly drugs from the 1950s were the scourge of mankind. 

 

Bottom line: my recommendation stands.  Taper and tough it out first. If you can't take it, seroquel, metformin, and a beta blocker.   Works like a charm.  If you can't take the seroquel sides, gabapentin is the next step, but that can have withdrawal and requires more frequent dosing.  

 

Nothing else is worth mentioning.  

[Voulezvous]

From 2014
https://www.ncbi.nlm...19/#!po=66.4634

From 2009
http://journals.sage...269881108100322

flumazenil does not have a good track record for success, and most psychiatrists do not use it. Recovery clinics use it, but relapse is common and PAWS type issues tend to persist.

? You seem to not be aware of what it does. No most psychiatrists don't prescribe an IV drug normally used for overdose or detox. If you had hyperinsomina you can get it prescribed.

Has far as PAWS goes it's been shown to be effective. I think it would be much more effective if taken chronically to upreg the receptors more meaningfully based on the mode of action studies. But here are some of the PAWS ones which showed it was effective and safe.


Eur J Pharmacol. 1986 Dec 2;132(1):31-8. Periodic benzodiazepine antagonist administration prevents benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms in.
" Every third day administration of the benzodiazepine antagonist, Ro15-1788, during a similar period of continuous diazepam exposure, significantly decreases withdrawal behaviors."
" It is postulated that physical dependence reverts to a drug naive state after each exposure to the benzodiazepine antagonist. This treatment may represent a possible therapeutic approach for preventing the (time dependent) development of physical dependence and the accompanying severe withdrawal symptoms."

I am well aware of what it does. You're citing a medical journal article that was probably published before you were born. I mean, 1986? Really?

Find me something from the 21st century.

Bottom line: benzo withdrawal is not that bad. For most people who use therapeutic doses, even for years, there is no withdrawal. For abuse, not much seems to help but time.

PAWS itself appears to be an internet driven phenomenon. Benzos were brought to market not long after antibiotics. We've got 60 years of history here, and not until BenzoBuddies came out did the world start freaking out that suddenly drugs from the 1950s were the scourge of mankind.

Bottom line: my recommendation stands. Taper and tough it out first. If you can't take it, seroquel, metformin, and a beta blocker. Works like a charm. If you can't take the seroquel sides, gabapentin is the next step, but that can have withdrawal and requires more frequent dosing.

Nothing else is worth mentioning.

Edited by Voulezvous, 22 March 2018 - 09:52 AM.

[Eryximachus]

From 2014
https://www.ncbi.nlm...19/#!po=66.4634

 

 

 

You can't read. And you just want to promote a bullshit theory. 

 

This is not a study. It is a hypothesis that the development of a depot (long esterized injectible) form of flumazenil could overcome the ridiculously poor success rate of the drug for anything other than it's original design goal - treating overdoses.  

 

Maybe it will work, maybe it won't.  But at the moment, it hasn't been developed and it hasn't been tested.  Cling to the dream all you want. At moment, that's all it is. A dream.  You're just randomly pulling articles from the NIH and not reading them. 

 

This is always the danger on this forum. People fixate on specific drugs and ignore clinical reality. They read a headline of a study, but lack the intellectual ability or willpower to read.  It's just BS back and forth.  

 

NO PSYCHIATRIST USES FLUMAZENIL FOR BENZO WITHDRAWAL. NONE.  

Edited by Eryximachus, 22 March 2018 - 08:53 PM.

[Voulezvous]

Research didn’t end in the last century. I showed nothing more and nothing less with those examples.

[Voulezvous]

I joined to learn about NSI-189. Psychiatrists don’t prescribe it, but there’s a good amount of available information that people share. We’re all on this forum at our own risk.
I’m interested in finding out if there have been studies on transdermal or sublingual flumazenil to reduce benzo tolerance. So I’m asking the only person I know who’s also talking about flumazenil. It’s available as a research chemical, as are many things people use.
I’m well aware that this is a potent drug. I’m well aware that measurements would have to be very very small to avoid devastating consequences.
I’d like to say I’m touched by your concern, but you’re showing contempt- not concern.

I agree with you about the pitfalls of this type of forum. You aren’t mitigating them by being an asshole. If you have knowledge, and you’re concerned, you could contribute to the conversation and be a part of fleshing out the pros and cons of trying a risky venture. I’d absolutely welcome that.

From 2014
https://www.ncbi.nlm...19/#!po=66.4634

You can't read. And you just want to promote a bullshit theory.

This is not a study. It is a hypothesis that the development of a depot (long esterized injectible) form of flumazenil could overcome the ridiculously poor success rate of the drug for anything other than it's original design goal - treating overdoses.

Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. But at the moment, it hasn't been developed and it hasn't been tested. Cling to the dream all you want. At moment, that's all it is. A dream. You're just randomly pulling articles from the NIH and not reading them.

This is always the danger on this forum. People fixate on specific drugs and ignore clinical reality. They read a headline of a study, but lack the intellectual ability or willpower to read. It's just BS back and forth.

NO PSYCHIATRIST USES FLUMAZENIL FOR BENZO WITHDRAWAL. NONE.

I joined to learn about NSI-189. Psychiatrists don’t prescribe it, but there’s a good amount of available information that people share. We’re all on this forum at our own risk.
I’m interested in finding out if there have been studies on transdermal or sublingual flumazenil to reduce benzo tolerance. So I’m asking the only person I know who’s also talking about flumazenil. It’s available as a research chemical, as are many things people use.
I’m well aware that this is a potent drug. I’m well aware that measurements would have to be very very small to avoid devastating consequences.
I’d like to say I’m touched by your concern, but you’re showing contempt- not concern.

I agree with you about the pitfalls of this type of forum. You aren’t mitigating them by being an asshole. If you have knowledge, and you’re concerned, you could contribute to the conversation and be a part of fleshing out the pros and cons of trying a risky venture. I’d absolutely welcome that.

From 2014
https://www.ncbi.nlm...19/#!po=66.4634

You can't read. And you just want to promote a bullshit theory.

This is not a study. It is a hypothesis that the development of a depot (long esterized injectible) form of flumazenil could overcome the ridiculously poor success rate of the drug for anything other than it's original design goal - treating overdoses.

Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. But at the moment, it hasn't been developed and it hasn't been tested. Cling to the dream all you want. At moment, that's all it is. A dream. You're just randomly pulling articles from the NIH and not reading them.

This is always the danger on this forum. People fixate on specific drugs and ignore clinical reality. They read a headline of a study, but lack the intellectual ability or willpower to read. It's just BS back and forth.

NO PSYCHIATRIST USES FLUMAZENIL FOR BENZO WITHDRAWAL. NONE.

[BioHacker=Life]

 

 

 

 

? You seem to not be aware of what it does. No most psychiatrists don't prescribe an IV drug normally used for overdose or detox. If you had hyperinsomina you can get it prescribed.

 

Has far as PAWS goes it's been shown to be effective. I think it would be much more effective if taken chronically to upreg the receptors more meaningfully based on the mode of action studies. But here are some of the PAWS ones which showed it was effective and safe.

 

 

Eur J Pharmacol. 1986 Dec 2;132(1):31-8. Periodic benzodiazepine antagonist administration prevents benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms in.

" Every third day administration of the benzodiazepine antagonist, Ro15-1788, during a similar period of continuous diazepam exposure, significantly decreases withdrawal behaviors."

" It is postulated that physical dependence reverts to a drug naive state after each exposure to the benzodiazepine antagonist. This treatment may represent a possible therapeutic approach for preventing the (time dependent) development of physical dependence and the accompanying severe withdrawal symptoms."

 

 

I am well aware of what it does. You're citing a medical journal article that was probably published before you were born. I mean, 1986? Really?  

 

Find me something from the 21st century. 

 

Bottom line: benzo withdrawal is not that bad. For most people who use therapeutic doses, even for years, there is no withdrawal. For abuse, not much seems to help but time. 

 

PAWS itself appears to be an internet driven phenomenon.  Benzos were brought to market not long after antibiotics.  We've got 60 years of history here, and not until BenzoBuddies came out did the world start freaking out that suddenly drugs from the 1950s were the scourge of mankind. 

 

Bottom line: my recommendation stands.  Taper and tough it out first. If you can't take it, seroquel, metformin, and a beta blocker.   Works like a charm.  If you can't take the seroquel sides, gabapentin is the next step, but that can have withdrawal and requires more frequent dosing.  

 

Nothing else is worth mentioning.  

 

 

No you're not but maybe someday you'll realize. I cited all the research rather than offer no research and make a bias statement solely based on the year of the study rather than the data the study produced and it's validity.

 

Using antagonists for receptor upregulation is a sound and studied biochemical effect. It's proven to reduce symptoms of PAWS. It should be first line for all ex benzo users being superior than anything else in resolving the underlaying cause of PAWS. Receptor dysfunction induced by down-regulation and receptor reduction.

Edited by BioHacker=Life, 23 March 2018 - 01:41 AM.

[Keizo]

From my own experience Cerebrolysin has helped quite a bit. I used it after ~3 months being completely off benzos. Greatly helped with brain fog and tension. In general though it seems to be slightly calming, anti-stress, anti-depressant, generally improving cognition, from my experience and what I've read other say. NSI-189 was something I considered as well, but I can't comment on it.

 

If you are still on benzos I'd go to a doctor, get a taper and possibly some prescribed zombie meds as already suggested. 

[Voulezvous]

I’m on a taper now because my doctor is insisting. It’s a problem because my high stress crisis situation isn’t ending, it’s lasting years and gotten worse.

I know Xanax isn’t supposed to be used for a very long time. The things my doctor has given me to ease down have all either made me sick and/or intensified anxiety. The best has been gabapentin for how much it helps mentally, but I get sick to my stomach every time I take it. But I have to function though. I took a gabapentin this morning and am toughing it out. From experience I can predict what will happen if I take the 2nd and god forbid 3rd dose today.
I’ll look up Cerebrolysin. Sounds interesting. Thanks.

Edited by Voulezvous, 24 March 2018 - 09:31 PM.

[Eryximachus]

Research didn’t end in the last century. I showed nothing more and nothing less with those examples.

 

The research, unequivocally, indicates that the treatment you suggest DOES NOT WORK.

 

The entire point of the article YOU CITED was to propose the hypothesis that an esterized injectable form of the drug YOU CLAIM WORKS BUT DOES NOT could overcome the fact IT DOESN'T WORK.   

 

My god, you make a claim that Drug X works.  You cite a paper as evidence that Drug X works, when the very paper says quite clearly that Drug X DOES NOT work and proposes a chemical modification of Drug X that COULD WORK and warrants further study. 

 

Have you found any such studies? NO.  

 

LongeCity is a fantastic site, but I am not going to back down with retards regurgitating nonsense and giving false hope to people.  The only way to get the drug you propose is to go to shyster rehab clinic that will cost a fortune. As the article YOU CITE indicates, the success rate is abysmally low.  

 

You want to sit here and have this argument not because you care about this fellow coming to us for help. You are here to feed your ego.  You are a broken soul, a narcissist, desperate to find some meaning in your life and you have chosen this as your little battle. Well, sorry pal.  Another person's life is at stake here. You don't know if this guy as $30K to spend on the treatment you propose.  Chances are, if the OP followed your foolish advice, he would A) not recover and B) lose a lot of money that he likely does not have.  

 

In short, you are demonstrating why narcissism is so dangerous. You are putting another person's life at risk, all for your ego.   Were you a doctor, proposing this bullshit, you would be risking your license depending on the jurisdiction. There is a reason detox clinics using the drug you claim works are concentrated in low regulation states like Florida and Texas.  In New York, that shit is illegal.  

Edited by Eryximachus, 25 March 2018 - 09:02 PM.

[Eryximachus]

joined to learn about NSI-189. Psychiatrists don’t prescribe it, but there’s a good amount of available information that people share. We’re all on this forum at our own risk.
I’m interested in finding out if there have been studies on transdermal or sublingual flumazenil to reduce benzo tolerance. So I’m asking the only person I know who’s also talking about flumazenil. It’s available as a research chemical, as are many things people use.
I’m well aware that this is a potent drug. I’m well aware that measurements would have to be very very small to avoid devastating consequences.
I’d like to say I’m touched by your concern, but you’re showing contempt- not concern.

I agree with you about the pitfalls of this type of forum. You aren’t mitigating them by being an asshole. If you have knowledge, and you’re concerned, you could contribute to the conversation and be a part of fleshing out the pros and cons of trying a risky venture. I’d absolutely welcome that.

 

 

Dude, NSI-189 is in clinical trials. It is a new substance. Flumazenil is not new. It came to market likely before you were born.  NSI-189 is cutting edge research. Flumazenil is a long discredited hypothesis.  And we have the major issue that we DON'T KNOW your status.  The reality is the drug could induce a seizure, and you could die.  Am I being an asshole but giving a shit and not wanting you die?  Fine, so be it.  

 

I gave a good protocol.  Seroquel, gabapentin and propranolol help most people tolerate the withdrawals.  Why would you risk a disproven treatment over something that most progressive psychiatrists will try first? 

 

It's your life, do what you want.   

[Eryximachus]

 

 

 

 

 

? You seem to not be aware of what it does. No most psychiatrists don't prescribe an IV drug normally used for overdose or detox. If you had hyperinsomina you can get it prescribed.

 

Has far as PAWS goes it's been shown to be effective. I think it would be much more effective if taken chronically to upreg the receptors more meaningfully based on the mode of action studies. But here are some of the PAWS ones which showed it was effective and safe.

 

 

Eur J Pharmacol. 1986 Dec 2;132(1):31-8. Periodic benzodiazepine antagonist administration prevents benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms in.

" Every third day administration of the benzodiazepine antagonist, Ro15-1788, during a similar period of continuous diazepam exposure, significantly decreases withdrawal behaviors."

" It is postulated that physical dependence reverts to a drug naive state after each exposure to the benzodiazepine antagonist. This treatment may represent a possible therapeutic approach for preventing the (time dependent) development of physical dependence and the accompanying severe withdrawal symptoms."

 

 

I am well aware of what it does. You're citing a medical journal article that was probably published before you were born. I mean, 1986? Really?  

 

Find me something from the 21st century. 

 

Bottom line: benzo withdrawal is not that bad. For most people who use therapeutic doses, even for years, there is no withdrawal. For abuse, not much seems to help but time. 

 

PAWS itself appears to be an internet driven phenomenon.  Benzos were brought to market not long after antibiotics.  We've got 60 years of history here, and not until BenzoBuddies came out did the world start freaking out that suddenly drugs from the 1950s were the scourge of mankind. 

 

Bottom line: my recommendation stands.  Taper and tough it out first. If you can't take it, seroquel, metformin, and a beta blocker.   Works like a charm.  If you can't take the seroquel sides, gabapentin is the next step, but that can have withdrawal and requires more frequent dosing.  

 

Nothing else is worth mentioning.  

 

 

No you're not but maybe someday you'll realize. I cited all the research rather than offer no research and make a bias statement solely based on the year of the study rather than the data the study produced and it's validity.

 

Using antagonists for receptor upregulation is a sound and studied biochemical effect. It's proven to reduce symptoms of PAWS. It should be first line for all ex benzo users being superior than anything else in resolving the underlaying cause of PAWS. Receptor dysfunction induced by down-regulation and receptor reduction.

 

 

It is not that simple.  And the particular antagonist you describe requires IV administration non-stop for the effect you propose to work.  Thus, the suggestion that it could be esterized somehow and a depot injectable product created. 

 

And come on - how many opioid addicts require opioid antagonists?  We barely understand how these drugs work.  In the vast majority of cases, with almost every single drug, the only solution is time.  Whether you're dealing with a cocaine addict, someone coming off of anabolic steroids, a heroin addict. There are drugs that help, but they usually are just a crutch at best.  There is no magic cure all for any drug to which your body adapts.  The only solution is time. 

 

And to the fellow with the problem I responded to before - I did not see you were from Dubai.  If you have speaking Arabic for a long time, my harsh tone is understandably disturbing.  I do apologize.  But, I saw the xanax comment.

 

First, you need to start on long acting benzo.  If you are on 4mg of Xanax per day, you need to start with about 40mg of Valium. Titrate down 5% per week.  This should not be too bad, but the last 2.5mgs will be tough.  I recommend you switch to Seroquel 50mg per day at bedtime at that time with Propranolol 40mg per day in the morning.  Increase the Seroquel up to 200mg, 50mg per week, but don't go higher than 80mg for the propranolol.  You're already trying gabapentin, but it's not going to help you until your benzo receptors are clear.  You should not add gabapentin to the Seroquel/Propranolol cocktail until  you are at least 4 weeks out from your last diazepam dose.  The stuff has a very long half life. 

[BioHacker=Life]

 

 

 

No you're not but maybe someday you'll realize. I cited all the research rather than offer no research and make a bias statement solely based on the year of the study rather than the data the study produced and it's validity.

Using antagonists for receptor upregulation is a sound and studied biochemical effect. It's proven to reduce symptoms of PAWS. It should be first line for all ex benzo users being superior than anything else in resolving the underlaying cause of PAWS. Receptor dysfunction induced by down-regulation and receptor reduction.

 

 

It is not that simple.  And the particular antagonist you describe requires IV administration non-stop for the effect you propose to work.  Thus, the suggestion that it could be esterized somehow and a depot injectable product created. 

 

And come on - how many opioid addicts require opioid antagonists?  We barely understand how these drugs work.  In the vast majority of cases, with almost every single drug, the only solution is time.  Whether you're dealing with a cocaine addict, someone coming off of anabolic steroids, a heroin addict. There are drugs that help, but they usually are just a crutch at best.  There is no magic cure all for any drug to which your body adapts.  The only solution is time. 

 

And to the fellow with the problem I responded to before - I did not see you were from Dubai.  If you have speaking Arabic for a long time, my harsh tone is understandably disturbing.  I do apologize.  But, I saw the xanax comment.

 

First, you need to start on long acting benzo.  If you are on 4mg of Xanax per day, you need to start with about 40mg of Valium. Titrate down 5% per week.  This should not be too bad, but the last 2.5mgs will be tough.  I recommend you switch to Seroquel 50mg per day at bedtime at that time with Propranolol 40mg per day in the morning.  Increase the Seroquel up to 200mg, 50mg per week, but don't go higher than 80mg for the propranolol.  You're already trying gabapentin, but it's not going to help you until your benzo receptors are clear.  You should not add gabapentin to the Seroquel/Propranolol cocktail until  you are at least 4 weeks out from your last diazepam dose.  The stuff has a very long half life. 

 

 

No it doesn't. It works topically and sublingually and is prescribed for hyperinsomina. Regular dosing mimicking iv studies and research showing chronic use upregs receptors is a solid and logical approach to resetting benzo receptors.

 

All of them do due to receptor downregulation. This is no different than using nootropics to upreg receptors. Telling people to do nothing is dangerous and shortsighted.

[Voulezvous]

I appreciate this a lot. I’m hanging in there pretty well actually, just going au naturel. This was my second day in a row taking only one mg of Xanax, down from 3. A few months ago I was taking 4 a day. I’m seeing my doctor later this week and I’m going to ask to switch to Ativan or Valium and keep it at a dose that I’ll have to ration.

I’ve been taking magnesium, epa omegas, other vitamins and minerals, inositol, tyrosine, and a lot of water. The depression and anxiety are bad, but honestly I don’t think it’s that much worse. I mean it is worse, but survivable. This is without any exercise. If I could make myself do that I know it would help.

I’ve taken seroquel before and hated it. It kept me up all night. I already have miserable insomnia. I tend to not respond well to things most people like. I’ve tried a lot of meds and have had bad reactions to several. This makes me even more wary of flumazenil.

? You seem to not be aware of what it does. No most psychiatrists don't prescribe an IV drug normally used for overdose or detox. If you had hyperinsomina you can get it prescribed.

Has far as PAWS goes it's been shown to be effective. I think it would be much more effective if taken chronically to upreg the receptors more meaningfully based on the mode of action studies. But here are some of the PAWS ones which showed it was effective and safe.


Eur J Pharmacol. 1986 Dec 2;132(1):31-8. Periodic benzodiazepine antagonist administration prevents benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms in.
" Every third day administration of the benzodiazepine antagonist, Ro15-1788, during a similar period of continuous diazepam exposure, significantly decreases withdrawal behaviors."
" It is postulated that physical dependence reverts to a drug naive state after each exposure to the benzodiazepine antagonist. This treatment may represent a possible therapeutic approach for preventing the (time dependent) development of physical dependence and the accompanying severe withdrawal symptoms."

I am well aware of what it does. You're citing a medical journal article that was probably published before you were born. I mean, 1986? Really?

Find me something from the 21st century.

Bottom line: benzo withdrawal is not that bad. For most people who use therapeutic doses, even for years, there is no withdrawal. For abuse, not much seems to help but time.

PAWS itself appears to be an internet driven phenomenon. Benzos were brought to market not long after antibiotics. We've got 60 years of history here, and not until BenzoBuddies came out did the world start freaking out that suddenly drugs from the 1950s were the scourge of mankind.

Bottom line: my recommendation stands. Taper and tough it out first. If you can't take it, seroquel, metformin, and a beta blocker. Works like a charm. If you can't take the seroquel sides, gabapentin is the next step, but that can have withdrawal and requires more frequent dosing.

Nothing else is worth mentioning.

No you're not but maybe someday you'll realize. I cited all the research rather than offer no research and make a bias statement solely based on the year of the study rather than the data the study produced and it's validity.

Using antagonists for receptor upregulation is a sound and studied biochemical effect. It's proven to reduce symptoms of PAWS. It should be first line for all ex benzo users being superior than anything else in resolving the underlaying cause of PAWS. Receptor dysfunction induced by down-regulation and receptor reduction.

It is not that simple. And the particular antagonist you describe requires IV administration non-stop for the effect you propose to work. Thus, the suggestion that it could be esterized somehow and a depot injectable product created.

And come on - how many opioid addicts require opioid antagonists? We barely understand how these drugs work. In the vast majority of cases, with almost every single drug, the only solution is time. Whether you're dealing with a cocaine addict, someone coming off of anabolic steroids, a heroin addict. There are drugs that help, but they usually are just a crutch at best. There is no magic cure all for any drug to which your body adapts. The only solution is time.

And to the fellow with the problem I responded to before - I did not see you were from Dubai. If you have speaking Arabic for a long time, my harsh tone is understandably disturbing. I do apologize. But, I saw the xanax comment.

First, you need to start on long acting benzo. If you are on 4mg of Xanax per day, you need to start with about 40mg of Valium. Titrate down 5% per week. This should not be too bad, but the last 2.5mgs will be tough. I recommend you switch to Seroquel 50mg per day at bedtime at that time with Propranolol 40mg per day in the morning. Increase the Seroquel up to 200mg, 50mg per week, but don't go higher than 80mg for the propranolol. You're already trying gabapentin, but it's not going to help you until your benzo receptors are clear. You should not add gabapentin to the Seroquel/Propranolol cocktail until you are at least 4 weeks out from your last diazepam dose. The stuff has a very long half life.