Posted 07 July 2018 - 07:26 PM
Cheap NMN from China under threat...by Chinese company:
http://www.freepaten...18/0162895.html
and Sinclair:
http://www.freepaten...18/0163243.html
Edited by stefan_001, 07 July 2018 - 07:28 PM.
Posted 07 July 2018 - 07:48 PM
Cheap NMN from China under threat...by Chinese company:
http://www.freepaten...18/0162895.html
and Sinclair:
Interesting. I see the law firm for that Chinese company is in Henderson, NV, same as the shipping for Alivebynature.
Coincidence, or is that why they have the best prices and quality?
Posted 07 July 2018 - 09:08 PM
Interesting. I see the law firm for that Chinese company is in Henderson, NV, same as the shipping for Alivebynature.
Coincidence, or is that why they have the best prices and quality?
That sounds like too much for a coincidence. So the Chinese folks got on top of a good process.
Posted 23 October 2018 - 02:05 PM
omg pro health nmn has so much lead in it sorry for previus post its 30 parts per bilion lead in 125 capsule they masked the number by posting in pars per million on they re website
Where did you source the 30 parts per billion test result?
Posted 23 October 2018 - 03:39 PM
Where did you source the 30 parts per billion test result?
no source they posted this on theyre website you can check it out right now its under product they are doing a usual scan they are posting in parts per million not pats per billion i got followed at start and thats why i asked where do they buy it from because i thought its cheap im sorry again was very stupid of me
Posted 11 January 2019 - 01:03 AM
Alive by Nature NMN seems to be the "go to" supplement around these parts (I also use it) but does anyone have thoughts on the other NMN suppliers such as Genex Formulas and Maac10, as far as the quality is concerned?
Edited by cjacek, 11 January 2019 - 01:05 AM.
Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:43 AM
Back in May 2018, I tried both Maac10 and Genex brands. Both seemed fine then as far as I could tell.
I notice Maac10 posts a test report on Amazon, but it doesn't show their company name or the testing company name, so not sure if that any good or not.
Genex doesn't have a test report posted.
They both have a 4 star average of reviews on Amazon. Significantly better than Niagen, but not as good as the 4 1/2 average for all the ABN products.
Personally, I think sublingual is far better, and likely why ABN has such better reviews.
But I'd guess they aren't total junk and maybe worth a try, if you want a capsule instead of sublingual delivery.
Edited by able, 11 January 2019 - 09:44 AM.
Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:14 AM
Back in May 2018, I tried both Maac10 and Genex brands. Both seemed fine then as far as I could tell.
I notice Maac10 posts a test report on Amazon, but it doesn't show their company name or the testing company name, so not sure if that any good or not.
Genex doesn't have a test report posted.
They both have a 4 star average of reviews on Amazon. Significantly better than Niagen, but not as good as the 4 1/2 average for all the ABN products.
Personally, I think sublingual is far better, and likely why ABN has such better reviews.
But I'd guess they aren't total junk and maybe worth a try, if you want a capsule instead of sublingual delivery.
Hi, are the NMN tablets easy to crush? I find the powder really cumbersome and wanted to see if I could mix a couple of crushed ones daily with my dog's food. Thanks
Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:37 AM
Back in May 2018, I tried both Maac10 and Genex brands. Both seemed fine then as far as I could tell.
I notice Maac10 posts a test report on Amazon, but it doesn't show their company name or the testing company name, so not sure if that any good or not.
Genex doesn't have a test report posted.
They both have a 4 star average of reviews on Amazon. Significantly better than Niagen, but not as good as the 4 1/2 average for all the ABN products.
Personally, I think sublingual is far better, and likely why ABN has such better reviews.
But I'd guess they aren't total junk and maybe worth a try, if you want a capsule instead of sublingual delivery.
Thanks able. Yeah, I've seen that test report too and also wondered why it didn't have their company info and also details on the testing company on there. They also don't ship to Canada, I just found out, so it seems a moot point. Yeah, I like the take-it-and-forget-it twice per day in water powder (from ABN) but would prefer the capsules if they still had 'em, for the absolute accuracy of dosing. That's one of the reasons I got interested in alternate suppliers. The sublingual tabs and taking the powder that way too is fine but demands frequent doses and is not easy to adhere to by some. The sublingual may indeed work better but the much easier to stick with twice per day thing in water does the trick too. So I guess if I'll be shopping for suppliers, it'd be good to ask them for recent test reports? Thanks again.
Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:42 AM
Hi, are the NMN tablets easy to crush? I find the powder really cumbersome and wanted to see if I could mix a couple of crushed ones daily with my dog's food. Thanks
Yes, very easy. I just did it to see. I used a small wooden spoon on a small wooden board (you can use any spoon or flat part of a knife) and applied some downward pressure (with slight rocking) and the tablet basically turned to some nice tasting powder.
Posted 12 January 2019 - 06:32 PM
Cjacek - What do you mean about "demands frequent doses" ?
I don't believe there is any requirement for frequent dosages when taking sublingual. You can take 1 or 2 per day, same as with capsules. But they claim there is a benefit from spreading the dosages out throughout the day, to keep it in the bloodstream more, before the liver filters it out.
You can take 4 capsules, or swallow 4 tablets (500 mg). If sublingual, 50-100 mg might go direct to the bloodstream. The rest goes to the liver and works the same as a capsule.
If you choose to spread those 4 tablets out over 2-4 doses throughout the day, more of it will go to blood and avoid the liver for some time. But certainly not required to spread them out.
But afaik, there isn't anything about taking it sublingual that would demand more frequent dosage - its just an option to further improve the effectiveness.
Edited by able, 12 January 2019 - 07:17 PM.
Posted 15 January 2019 - 05:18 AM
You can take 4 capsules, or swallow 4 tablets (500 mg). If sublingual, 50-100 mg might go direct to the bloodstream. The rest goes to the liver and works the same as a capsule.
Hello Able.
I haven't been able to find much research on sublingual transport other than this.
No bitter taste
Dose lowers than 20mg,
Small to moderate molecular weight
Good stability in water and saliva
Partially non ionized at the oral cavities pH
Undergoing first pass effect
From this paper: SUBLINGUAL MUCOSA AS A ROUTE FOR SYSTEMIC DRUG DELIVERY
I was wondering if you had a source for your statement of "If sublingual, 50-100 mg might go direct to the bloodstream"?
Thanks
Posted 15 January 2019 - 06:08 PM
Hello Able.
I haven't been able to find much research on sublingual transport other than this.
No bitter taste
Dose lowers than 20mg,
Small to moderate molecular weight
Good stability in water and saliva
Partially non ionized at the oral cavities pH
Undergoing first pass effect
From this paper: SUBLINGUAL MUCOSA AS A ROUTE FOR SYSTEMIC DRUG DELIVERY
I was wondering if you had a source for your statement of "If sublingual, 50-100 mg might go direct to the bloodstream"?
Thanks
Lawrence - Sorry, but I’ve never done any research on sublingual, other than browsing that paper when you posted it last year.
I know Alivebynature claims something like 30-35%, which would be 150 mg or more. That seems quite optimistic to me, which is why I said 50-100mg.
As I mentioned in the other thread, there is no way that 20 mg is a hard limit for absorption of NMN, based on the effect I have had with 250-500mg of the powder elevating heart rate, while 125 mg does not.
I think there are a few things going on.
First, its not a hard stop at 20 mg, but lower effectiveness above 20 mg make it harder to control the throughput. That paper is looking at drugs like nitro-glycerine, which require a tightly controlled dose to be delivered, so using higher dosages with too much variability is not an option. Not a problem with something like NMN where the variability in absorption won’t kill you.
Second, I see in that paper you reference, they note PH matters a lot on absorption:
"absorption of some drugs via oral mucosa is shown to increase when carrier pH is lowering (more acidic)…
acidic stimulation of the salivary glands, with the accompanying vasodilation, facilitates absorption and uptake into the circulatory system…
The more acid the taste, the greater the stimulation of salivary output"
I don’t know what the PH is for NMN, but you can tell it is fairly acidic by the sour, acidic taste.
Third, the powder I take is diffused very quickly, across a much broader area than a tablet. For me, 200 mg is absorbed instantly - flat out gone - with almost none being swallowed. Much different than sucking on or chewing a tablet.
So I’d guess those factors are why I find the NMN powder delivers a lot more than 20 mg per dose sublingual.
I take it that 20 mg noted is why you guys are designing your new product like that, to save cost, which makes sense.
Maybe that is not to far from the max you can get from tablets without decreasing returns on absorption, but if it's not too late I would recommend a little higher dosage.
I do note that the ABN tablets don’t seem nearly as effective. I have tried taking 4 at once before a workout and don’t experience the increased heart rate I do with 500 mg of the powder.
Have you considered a spray? From that same paper, I notice that is FAR more effective for sublingual, which would hold down the cost considerably: For Nitroglycerine,
“90% efficiency ... decreased to 48% with sublingual tablets and 28% with the oral dose”
Edited by able, 15 January 2019 - 06:20 PM.
Posted 19 January 2019 - 05:33 PM
@able how do you think the NMN is able to elevate heart rate? Have you measured your blood pressure when that happens?
I did measure blood pressure once and it seemed a bit higher, but my bp fluctuates quite a lot so hard to say. I'll try some more, and also will try with 500 mg of NR sublingual to see if I can notice the same heart rate increase - seems like it should.
I don't really know the mechanism. I do notice the same thing when taking NAD+ powder, with somewhat smaller dosages. I have seen research that NAD+ IV quickly raises NAD+ in hypothalamus, which is master regulator of metabolism. Seems like that would elevate heart rate, but I don't really know if that is the pathway.
Reports from people in the NAD+ clinics usually report a tight feeling in the chest, often described as a bit uncomfortable. I don't recall mention if that includes increased heart rate.
Posted 05 February 2019 - 01:06 AM
Sometimes I carry the little tin with me and take throughout the day whenever I think about it - 6,8,10 a day.
But I think the powder is much more effective. I use a little spoon to take about 250 mg at a time, 2-4 times a day. Sometimes mixing with some of the tablets.
I don't think there is any "right" dosage, and the 8 small dosages a day is more a goal. They'd sell a lot more if they made recommendations that didn't seem such pita.
IMO, 250 to 500 mg of the powder is better than the 1,000 mg capsules Dr Sinclair says he takes, as much of those end up as NAM.
But I would be surprised if he is actually taking just the NMN. They already have results from testing their super NMN combo pill, MIB626. Although not yet published, he knows the results are good and it's free for him, so doubt he is still taking plain old NMN like us.
Metro International Biotech has conducted multiple IRB-approved human safety and bioavailability trials at a prominent Boston hospital, which demonstrated MIB-626 is well tolerated in healthy human volunteer subjects and raises blood levels of NAD+ and related metabolites.
Metro International Biotech intends to file an IND in mid-2019 for Phase 2 trials in Frederich’s Ataxia.
Metro International Biotech intends to file an IND in mid-2019 for Phase 2 trials in mitochondrial myopathy.
Edited by able, 05 February 2019 - 01:07 AM.
Posted 05 February 2019 - 02:33 AM
The plastic spoons they provide are clumsy. I actually bought these little sugar teaspoons on amazon
I dump that under the tongue and is gone in 15 seconds or so. I keep seeing some people say it takes minutes for them, and am mystified there is so much variation between people.
Tastes fine - slightly sour, but not bad at all. I used to mix in a little sweetener, but am used to it now and don't bother anymore.
Posted 07 February 2019 - 01:19 AM
Guys, is it just me, or have the people over at Alive By Nature gone absolutely ape crazy over their sublingual tabs? I mean, l love their NMN pure powder, have been ordering it for a long time, good people to deal with but they seem to be so invested in their "sublingual delivery" method, that they basically started trashing the only proven by science oral administration. Even though most of their sublingual tabs end up in the gut anyway. They seem to employ marketing and theory rather than proven science to push their sublingual products and there's lots of people that are buying into it. I'm real conflicted, 'cause they have good products, I've been a customer but seems a bit disingenuous of them. And I'm not necessarily suggesting that sublingual delivery is ineffective. I'm just dumbfounded that they're misinforming as to the normal proven oral administration. I hope you understand the point that I'm trying to make. Thoughts anyone?
Posted 07 February 2019 - 01:58 AM
Guys, is it just me, or have the people over at Alive By Nature gone absolutely ape crazy over their sublingual tabs? I mean, l love their NMN pure powder, have been ordering it for a long time, good people to deal with but they seem to be so invested in their "sublingual delivery" method, that they basically started trashing the only proven by science oral administration. Even though most of their sublingual tabs end up in the gut anyway. They seem to employ marketing and theory rather than proven science to push their sublingual products and there's lots of people that are buying into it. I'm real conflicted, 'cause they have good products, I've been a customer but seems a bit disingenuous of them. And I'm not necessarily suggesting that sublingual delivery is ineffective. I'm just dumbfounded that they're misinforming as to the normal proven oral administration. I hope you understand the point that I'm trying to make. Thoughts anyone?
Seems like the same argument going on right now over on the Joe Rogan podcast thread.
What do you mean they are "trashing the only proven by science oral administration" ?
Are they saying NMN capsules don't work, or just that they think sublingual is better?
I don't think it is right to say that capsules have no effect.
But I agree the powder is far better than taking a capsule. I personally have zero doubt.
There is no clinical testing with humans taking NMN sublingual, so the best anyone can do now is make educated guess on how much of a dose of sublingual gets to blood.
If they are wrong and it is zero, they are convincing some people to use a tablet and not really getting any additional benefit.
But I think its basically the same cost as a capsule, so not sure they are ripping us off, or that their marketing is dangerous or anything to get upset about.
Seems like Prohealth is following their lead and has come out with almost identical sublingual tablets and powder, with the same recommendations on dosages.
Hopefully we'll see the competition drive prices down some now.
Edited by able, 07 February 2019 - 02:02 AM.
Posted 07 February 2019 - 08:44 AM
@able: What I meant by "trashing the only proven by science oral administration" is that they're angling so much of their efforts on the sublingual delivery methods and product line, which I agree is unproven as far as any human or animal clinical testing (as far as the sublingual is concerned), that they are actually going out of their way to discount or deem "inferior" (their actual words) any oral means of NMN delivery (NMN taken with water), which was the foundation on which NMN was proven clinically to work and raise NAD+ levels in animals and humans. Not to mention the newly discovered specific NMN transport in the gut of all places. But this company seems so invested in their sublingual angle that they don't seem to care. I agree sublingual is an "educated guess" at best and it may indeed work well but no one really knows. We do, however, know that oral works well and has been proven to raise NAD+ levels in clinical trials. Perhaps there are limitation to this approach but it's the only one we have for sure that we know works. Maybe add things to it to make it more bio-available or prevent possible homeostasis, I dunno, but at least work in this framework and not misinform. And yet ABN is doing just that on both their official site and also Facebook posts. And while they don't specifically say "capsules don't work", they do use alternate language to make it seem like that. They say, for example, "capsules" or oral NMN gets "destroyed" or "digested" by the stomach, that oral NMN is an "inferior" product and such things... It all started when I asked for them to bring back the capsules version of their powder. I tried to respectfully ask them about this but it's an uphill battle especially when several members on there keep on echoing the company's misinformation. I think people are confusing advertisement claims and science. And I don't want to hit them harder by criticizing them on their public Facebook page by saying "sublingual remains unproven" because they'd probably delete my posts and stop selling me product. But it remains frustrating because I tell 'em to stop telling people that capsules or taking NMN in water doesn't work well, while touting the benefits of the unproven sublingual. I have no issue if they promote both methods but why misinform like that? Yes, they are trying very hard to convince people on their sub tablets while trashing anything else. Isn't it a surprise then that the tabs are sold out on their site? And now copy-cats started popping up as you mention. Anyway, I do hope more companies come on board, with good quality certified product and prices go down 'cause I now see ABN stopped offering a lower cost "3 jars" deal on their powder. And I don't think they're doing dangerous marketing (if misinformation or pseudoscience isn't dangerous), I just feel that they have so much vested interest in the sublingual way that they don't wanna hear anything else... Too bad. I just wish they'd stick to a straight forward basic product line, like the quality powder they have.
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So we have ProHealth and Alive By Nature...seem to be about the same price which is $$$. Any other suppliers (with certificates of purity) that might be a little cheaper? 