4 votes
Posted 30 October 2018 - 04:54 PM
4) I am 175 lbs - is 875 too little/too much?
David "NMN" Sinclair, formerly known as David "Resveratol" Sinclair, said last year that he and his father, ages 48 and 79 respectively, had been taking 500 mg of MNM for a few years. Sinclair also said ten years ago that he weighed 160 lbs based on his taking 320 mg of resveratrol a day. This year he wrote that he is taking 750 mg.
Posted 31 October 2018 - 02:09 PM
David "NMN" Sinclair, formerly known as David "Resveratol" Sinclair, said last year that he and his father, ages 48 and 79 respectively, had been taking 500 mg of MNM for a few years. Sinclair also said ten years ago that he weighed 160 lbs based on his taking 320 mg of resveratrol a day. This year he wrote that he is taking 750 mg.
Not quite. He's taking 1000mg Resveratrol, 750mg NMN, along with some Metformin:
Posted 31 October 2018 - 02:49 PM
David "NMN" Sinclair, formerly known as David "Resveratol" Sinclair, said last year that he and his father, ages 48 and 79 respectively, had been taking 500 mg of MNM for a few years. Sinclair also said ten years ago that he weighed 160 lbs based on his taking 320 mg of resveratrol a day. This year he wrote that he is taking 750 mg.
yeah, his protocol is evolving based on new evidence and experience, is that a bad thing? I dont think so
Posted 31 October 2018 - 02:57 PM
yeah, his protocol is evolving based on new evidence and experience, is that a bad thing? I dont think so
Well, if that's the case, I wish he'd share his 'new evidence and experience', because from here, there doesn't seem to be rhyme nor reason to the dose changes.
Posted 31 October 2018 - 04:58 PM
Well, if that's the case, I wish he'd share his 'new evidence and experience', because from here, there doesn't seem to be rhyme nor reason to the dose changes.
Sinclair increased his resveratrol dose from 320 mg (based on his mouse study) to over 500 mg in 2008/2009 according to his blog. He said then he was sometimes taking over 500 mg at the time and said 1,000 mg in 2015. Apparently, he thinks more is better based on his experience since there have been no human trials comparing those doses.
The same holds for NMN and metformin. As I wrote, for whatever reason Sinclair has thought one needs between 500 mg to 1,000 mg of NMN for best results and has been in that range. In the recent talk, he mentioned his metformin dose was within the range of what a diabetic takes - it isn't an exact science.
Posted 04 November 2018 - 10:56 AM
Posted 04 November 2018 - 03:24 PM
I have started taking 125mg x 4 sublingual nmn tablets 2 weeks ago and the reason for this first time post is to report two profound effects:
. Improved sleep, with vivid dreams almost every night
. Improved calm energy. No more after lunch crashes. Always ready to go to the gym.
This seems too good to be true and there is probably a good dose of placebo running here. That being said I have been experimenting with all kind of supplements over this oast years and this is the first time I feel something profound.
Today, while searching for nmn and vivid dreams, I stumble in another article published this September that again links nmn with nerve / neuron damage. "Pharmacological bypass of NAD+ salvage pathway protects neurons from chemotherapy-induced degeneration".
Not sure what to make of this.
Congrats on the improved energy. I've found that taking advantage of the energy to exercise harder to really maximize the benefit.
As for the neuro- degeneration - that study shows in chemotherapy patients with damage to mitochondria, the buildup of NMN inside of cells is a problem.
It has nothing to do with exogenous NMN - that is just Dr Brenner being vague to try and confuse people.
From the study itself:
"However, elevating NMN was not sufficient to cause axon degeneration, as neurons treated with NAR and NMNsyn displayed an elevation in NMN but did not degenerate."
This thread was already derailed twice by this topic, and Micheal moved the discussion over to this thread.
Posted 04 November 2018 - 03:30 PM
I have started taking 125mg x 4 sublingual nmn tablets 2 weeks ago and the reason for this first time post is to report two profound effects:
. Improved sleep, with vivid dreams almost every night
. Improved calm energy. No more after lunch crashes. Always ready to go to the gym.
This seems too good to be true and there is probably a good dose of placebo running here. That being said I have been experimenting with all kind of supplements over this oast years and this is the first time I feel something profound.
Today, while searching for nmn and vivid dreams, I stumble in another article published this September that again links nmn with nerve / neuron damage. "Pharmacological bypass of NAD+ salvage pathway protects neurons from chemotherapy-induced degeneration".
Not sure what to make of this.
I don't see a reason for worry. From the study, "Collectively, our data indicate that maintaining NAD+ is not sufficient to protect DRG neurons from vincristine-induced axon degeneration, and elevating NMN, by itself, is not sufficient to cause degeneration." Note we are not talking about normal, healthy people here, but rather, individuals with,"chemotherapy-induced peripheral neuropathy".
^https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30257945
------------------
Concerning my own personal NMN experience - over the last 90 or so days I've taken NMN, mostly sublingual. High daily intake has been ~1300 mgs, average 440 mgs, with random 2-3 days/wk breaks. Higher doses were taken within a 4 hour window before and during HIT (cycling) in the morning to early afternoon. On off training days, either no or low dosing (125 -250 mgs).
What did it get me? As one would expect, regular exercise improves performance. Still, I feel NMN deserves credit for some of my increasing cycling performance (significant speed, endurance, leg muscle development as recorded in my cycling app) over those weeks, along with a maintenance of overall body muscle tone and strength, seemingly without needing to do anything else out of the ordinary. In saying that, I'm comparing this summer's changes to past summers, and this year was significantly better. Further, having finished exercising, I'm generally ready to do something else, without resting much or at all. Years past, I would typically take a nap.
Other stats: My average monthly resting heart rate has stayed steady at ~52 bpm, Max steady-state working HR ~150-160 bpm (high for my age), and my HRV score has increased somewhat (a good thing) to an rMSSD of 58, which is not bad for my age. Resting BP has been consistent at 110-125/60-75.
After taking NMN for this long, a bigger problem is "What is normal?" in determining improvements/changes going forward. As winter is near, I'll be switching mostly to the gym, and will likely lower my daily NMN intake significantly, and reduce it to a maintenance dose, because I simply won't be out there cycling for a few hours a day. It will be interesting to see what happens, as I'm now in the habit of tracking my body stats daily.
Posted 05 November 2018 - 02:54 AM
Well don't keep us in suspense. By how much did your times improve compared to the previous two summers?
This summer started the same as past years, with similar average speeds over the multiple trails I use locally for 20-30 miles/day, but not necessarily exactly repetitive. Taking typical average speeds from my Sport Tracker app in August each year; 2015 ...12-13.5 mph; 2016 ....11-12.5 mph; 2017....12.5-13.5 mph. However, when I started the NMN in Aug this year, I wanted something better to help get the real deal on NMN supplementation combined with exercise. After trying several apps, Strava allowed me to track the stats I needed well enough to see results, if any. Plus I'd need better than random speeds on different trails. Fortunately a new 8 mile connecting trail had just opened up between where I live and a nearby city. There's one great 4 mile stretch on it, where I can go flat out for the whole thing. I'm not trying to kill myself, so I keep Max HR under 160 bpm. And so every now and again during these three months of NMN, I'd take that test run to get results. Strava came through, producing the type of segment data I was hoping for. While the segment data doesn't directly compare with data from past years, the improvements shown over these months on high dose NMN speak for themselves. And to be clear, during all these years I've used various hydration/supplement combos to try to improve, to modest results. All I can say is adding NMN seemed to be different.
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Posted 05 November 2018 - 11:58 AM
Brand new Podcast between Dr. Attia and David Sinclair. Oral NAD precussors don't work.
https://peterattiamd.../davidsinclair/
Posted 05 November 2018 - 03:03 PM
This is the Podcast that came out 2 weeks after Sinclair's. Attia says that intravenous would work. It would seem that sublingual would also work. Attia cites the following paper to back up his argument. The paper was not out when he had interview with Sinclair.
http://scihub.tw/htt...et.2018.03.018 This is a breakthrough paper with tracers following the journey of the precursors though the body.
at 1:56
https://peterattiamd.com/ama03/
I am thinking about changing to sublingual dosing of a NAD precursor (NMN/NAD) myself from oral after reading the paper.
https://alivebynatur...elivery-method/
Posted 05 November 2018 - 03:09 PM
This is the Podcast that came out 2 weeks after Sinclair's. Attia says that intravenous would work. It would seem that sublingual would also work. Attia cites the following paper to back up his argument. The paper was not out when he had interview with Sinclair.
http://scihub.tw/htt...et.2018.03.018 This is a breakthrough paper with tracers following the journey of the precursors though the body.
at 1:56
https://peterattiamd.com/ama03/
I am thinking about changing to sublingual dosing of a NAD precursor (NMN/NAD) myself from oral after reading the paper.
the link to the study does not work
also, why would sublingual work but oral not work at all? If you take it orally, some does get into the bloodstream, just like sublingual. Does not make sense to me.
Posted 05 November 2018 - 03:45 PM
Most of it gets into the bloodstream with IV or sublingual. Been estimated that 5% get into blood stream orally.
Unlock above cite with this http://sci-hub.tw/
Posted 05 November 2018 - 04:20 PM
I guess you got some bits confused on the 2 podcast. I don’t hear anything from Sinclair that NAD precursors don’t work. In fact, he is very enthusiastic about them.
1:31. - They extend lifespan in mice by giving them JUST NMN in drinking water, starting at 600 days!!!
1:15 - Jumpstart fertility - great progress - will be publishing soon
1:20.
His group shares resources with other teams that study 8 pathways of aging
He believes sirtuin is a unifying theory that might combines all pathways. And that Sirts aren’t damaged, but just lack of NAD+ keeps them from being effective.
Also, I noticed he contradicts himself, somewhat. In the Q&A on reddit he said he wasn’t aware of any bioavailability problem with oral NMN.
But at 1:14:23 he says
Metrobiotech has been working 5 years on ways to improve NR/NMN. Several ways to improve, including better BIOAVAILABILITY, better stability, better efficacy.
Edited by able, 05 November 2018 - 04:20 PM.
Posted 05 November 2018 - 04:20 PM
Most of it gets into the bloodstream with IV or sublingual. Been estimated that 5% get into blood stream orally.
Unlock above cite with this http://sci-hub.tw/
who estimated that?
also, I cant open that link at all, not sure what 'unlock' it means either.
Posted 05 November 2018 - 05:08 PM
Brand new Podcast between Dr. Attia and David Sinclair. Oral NAD precussors don't work.
Interesting podcast Pampaguy, thanks for posting.
Your post might suggest that Sinclair has been converted to sublingual NMN but he doesn't say that. Actually he is positive about oral NR as well as oral NMN. It is only in the last minutes that he floats a teaser about combining NMN with a rapalogue for better results.
Posted 05 November 2018 - 05:12 PM
Can't help but be a "Debbie Downer" here, isn't this supposed to be the "NMN Personal Experience" thread, the last eight posts are anything but .... There are other threads for your discussion.
You're so right Oakman. I apologize for posting a reaction here. I got carried away.
@ Pampaguy, perhaps open a new topic about this if you think it worthwile?
Posted 05 November 2018 - 05:53 PM
I personally think that the proper delivery method of taking NMN is very relevant to this discussion. I'm discussing switching from oral to sublingual and the reasons why.
In fact the above quoted paper infers that the only people getting anything out of taking NMN orally are the companies selling it. Switching on the delivery method is very personal experience.
Posted 05 November 2018 - 06:29 PM
You're so right Oakman. I apologize for posting a reaction here. I got carried away.
@ Pampaguy, perhaps open a new topic about this if you think it worthwile?
No worries, it's an interesting discussion by itself and it's easy to get caught up, done it myself..
Posted 05 November 2018 - 06:33 PM
I personally think that the proper delivery method of taking NMN is very relevant to this discussion. I'm discussing switching from oral to sublingual and the reasons why.
In fact the above quoted paper infers that the only people getting anything out of taking NMN orally are the companies selling it. Switching on the delivery method is very personal experience.
Absolutely how you take NMN for best results is relevant to everyone's use of NMN, but this is for personal experience, that is yours and my experience, not Dr Sinclair or some study. That is why there are different threads for different variations on the topic of NMN. If you start taking NMN sublingually and have something noteable to share, this IS the thread.
Posted 06 November 2018 - 01:11 AM
Hello
I have a few points and a few questions. the Alivebynature website has stopped selling NMN capsules. They still sell the powder and SL tabs. The powder is more cost effective. They are now touting a liquid delivery method. they say to mix the liquid into a squeeze or dropper bottle as a weeks worth at a time where it will maintain stability over 1 week. This is using the powder. They also claim that any oral precursors are a hoax claiming only a small amount of absorption. They say Basis is actually NR chloride. One question I have with SL dosing is this: How long does one have to keep it under the tongue or in the mouth to be sure it is fully absorbed? Anyone who can answer that should have some evidence to back it up. i usually try and keep the powder there for 10 min. But then it starts leaking out from excess saliva and I swallow. the SL tabs dissolve more quickly so I find it is gone in just a minute or two. are the dosages absorbed equivalent?? Would a liquid form need to be held under the tongue for 10 minutes or something else?
ABN also makes NAD+ in SL tabs and powder form The same questions apply for this. and can this also bee made into a liquid form? ABN doesn't address this question that I could find.
I ordered a few months ago the following from ABN: 3 bottles of 12gm NMN powder, 1 bottle of SL tabs and 1 bottle of NAD+ I first received the 3 NMN bottles of powder. a month later I received the SL tabs. a few days later another package came that I assumed was the NAD+ but instead it was another 3 bottles of powder! I have to call them about that! Obviously the 36gms NMN powder costs more than the NAD+
finally I came across this article published in JournalWatch (NEJM) with commentary:
Reversal of Vascular Aging in Mice Nicotinamide mononucleotide, a dietary supplement, increased capillary density and endurance in old mice. As mammals age, the number and function of their vascular endothelial cells diminishes. In humans, this begins at about age 40. This vascular aging leads to diminished muscle mass (promoting frailty), and it contributes to many age-related diseases. Regular exercise moderates vascular aging, but exercise becomes progressively less potent as we age. An international team reports that the supplement nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) increases levels of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+), which stimulates production of a molecule in endothelial cells that promotes response to angiogenic signals. Dietary intake of this supplement increased capillary density, improved blood flow through muscle, and increased endurance in old (but not young) mice. This effect was augmented further by exercise. Promotion of angiogenesis in the mice did not lead to excess cancers, but the number of mice studied was too small to exclude that possibility confidently.
COMMENT This study in mice might not apply to humans. Moreover, only skeletal muscle was studied. Thus, we cannot conclude that shrinkage of the microvasculature can be reversed in other key organs (e.g., heart, liver, bone, brain). Whether this supplement improves human health or not, our patients are likely to ask about it, because NMN is widely available for human use. — Anthony L. Komaroff, MD Das A et al. Impairment of an endothelial NAD+-H2 S signaling network is a reversible cause of vascular aging. Cell 2018 Mar 22; 173:74.
Posted 06 November 2018 - 01:34 AM
Hello
I have a few points and a few questions. the Alivebynature website has stopped selling NMN capsules. They still sell the powder and SL tabs. The powder is more cost effective. They are now touting a liquid delivery method. they say to mix the liquid into a squeeze or dropper bottle as a weeks worth at a time where it will maintain stability over 1 week. This is using the powder. They also claim that any oral precursors are a hoax claiming only a small amount of absorption. They say Basis is actually NR chloride. One question I have with SL dosing is this: How long does one have to keep it under the tongue or in the mouth to be sure it is fully absorbed? Anyone who can answer that should have some evidence to back it up. i usually try and keep the powder there for 10 min. But then it starts leaking out from excess saliva and I swallow. the SL tabs dissolve more quickly so I find it is gone in just a minute or two. are the dosages absorbed equivalent?? Would a liquid form need to be held under the tongue for 10 minutes or something else?
ABN also makes NAD+ in SL tabs and powder form The same questions apply for this. and can this also bee made into a liquid form? ABN doesn't address this question that I could find.
I ordered a few months ago the following from ABN: 3 bottles of 12gm NMN powder, 1 bottle of SL tabs and 1 bottle of NAD+ I first received the 3 NMN bottles of powder. a month later I received the SL tabs. a few days later another package came that I assumed was the NAD+ but instead it was another 3 bottles of powder! I have to call them about that! Obviously the 36gms NMN powder costs more than the NAD+
finally I came across this article published in JournalWatch (NEJM) with commentary:
Reversal of Vascular Aging in Mice Nicotinamide mononucleotide, a dietary supplement, increased capillary density and endurance in old mice. As mammals age, the number and function of their vascular endothelial cells diminishes. In humans, this begins at about age 40. This vascular aging leads to diminished muscle mass (promoting frailty), and it contributes to many age-related diseases. Regular exercise moderates vascular aging, but exercise becomes progressively less potent as we age. An international team reports that the supplement nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) increases levels of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+), which stimulates production of a molecule in endothelial cells that promotes response to angiogenic signals. Dietary intake of this supplement increased capillary density, improved blood flow through muscle, and increased endurance in old (but not young) mice. This effect was augmented further by exercise. Promotion of angiogenesis in the mice did not lead to excess cancers, but the number of mice studied was too small to exclude that possibility confidently.
COMMENT This study in mice might not apply to humans. Moreover, only skeletal muscle was studied. Thus, we cannot conclude that shrinkage of the microvasculature can be reversed in other key organs (e.g., heart, liver, bone, brain). Whether this supplement improves human health or not, our patients are likely to ask about it, because NMN is widely available for human use. — Anthony L. Komaroff, MD Das A et al. Impairment of an endothelial NAD+-H2 S signaling network is a reversible cause of vascular aging. Cell 2018 Mar 22; 173:74.
I am fascinated by the difference in dissolve time between individuals.
You keep the powder under your tongue for 10 minutes? I find anything up to 500 mg is totally gone in 20 seconds or less. Not swallowed, but absorbed.
Research says anything over 20 mg or so is not transported by blood vessels immediately. So, maybe it is in tissues and slowly gets into capillaries?
But I also wonder - the research is using tablets, that have a smaller surface area. Perhaps a scoop of powder disperses over a much larger surface area than a tablet, so has access to many more capillaries and can be transported more quickly than a tablet?
That totally unsupported theory is why I feel the powder is likely more effective. Research does show that other parts of the mouth are somewhat less efficient at absorption - something like 20-25% vs 30-35% for sublingual.
Are they selling a liquid NMN now? Interesting - I haven't seen that.
Edited by able, 06 November 2018 - 01:54 AM.
Posted 06 November 2018 - 04:00 AM
Hello
One question I have with SL dosing is this: How long does one have to keep it under the tongue or in the mouth to be sure it is fully absorbed? Anyone who can answer that should have some evidence to back it up. i usually try and keep the powder there for 10 min. But then it starts leaking out from excess saliva and I swallow. the SL tabs dissolve more quickly so I find it is gone in just a minute or two. are the dosages absorbed equivalent?? Would a liquid form need to be held under the tongue for 10 minutes or something else?
I posted this before somewhere, and the article gives detailed info on this subject. Ignore the drug they are talking about, the article is mostly a generic sublingual explanation, that is, the Results and Discussion section - Mechanistic Model for Oral Mucosal Absorption Based on Literature. Really quite interesting.
.
Posted 06 November 2018 - 04:35 AM
Here is the issue for me with SL method: So you put a pill or powder under your tongue and the powder or tablet dissolves. the NMN is now dissolved in the liquid. The liquid is under the tongue. How does one know the rate of absorption of the NMN as it is sitting under the tongue within the saliva? How quickly does it absorb into the blood vessels? Is it possible that it absorbs very slowly? How can one tell? After 1o minutes I still have some of the taste of the powder in my mouth. If one takes 125mg under the tongue does it all get absorbed? how can one know?
Posted 06 November 2018 - 04:51 AM
Here is the issue for me with SL method: So you put a pill or powder under your tongue and the powder or tablet dissolves. the NMN is now dissolved in the liquid. The liquid is under the tongue. How does one know the rate of absorption of the NMN as it is sitting under the tongue within the saliva? How quickly does it absorb into the blood vessels? Is it possible that it absorbs very slowly? How can one tell? After 1o minutes I still have some of the taste of the powder in my mouth. If one takes 125mg under the tongue does it all get absorbed? how can one know?
No, the full dose definitely does not get absorbed. The research Oakman and I quoted shows it is 25-35%, with many variables.
How can one know? Not until someone pays for clinical trials.
I don't see that it is critical to know exactly what % gets absorbed. As long as you believe it is more than 1%, it is better than swallowing a capsule, imo.
It sounds like you have a different experience than me, as the powder is totally gone instantly for me, with no aftertaste. For me, I know some % gets absorbed very quickly, as I get a profound stimulative effect (20 bpm elevation in heart rate) when I tried 2 spoons of 500 mg at once.
So I have no idea what % is getting absorbed by sublingual delivery, but I know is better than 0.
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