672 replies to this topic

[sinkpoint]

Since he mentioned mtor and ampk. Likely rapamycin and metformin.

Edited by sinkpoint, 29 December 2018 - 10:07 AM.

[able]

Since he mentioned mtor and ampk. Likely rapamycin and metformin.

 

Rapa and Metformin are prescription.   

 

They are trying to develop a product(s) to sell, so  that would not include prescription drugs.

 

I'm not that up on mtor, but there are many natural products that activate AMPK.  So they likely combined some known, safe natural products they feel are more effective than what LEF and others offer.

Edited by able, 29 December 2018 - 04:33 PM.

[boroda]

I received a bottle of NMN (sublingual 125mg tablets)  from Alive by Nature. Taking sublingually х4 each day (spread through the day, not all at once).  I didn't expect to get much from it since I'm < 40 y/o so supposedly I should still have plenty of NAD+. But I'm feeling absolutely fantastic on NMN. I could compare it to a daily 10gr dose of piracetam - but without bad side-effects and even better - the effect is "cleaner" and more natural. NMN greatly improves my productivity (programming).

Edited by boroda, 07 January 2019 - 05:17 PM.

[Harkijn]

Thanks for posting boroda. I have been following this thread since it began and even took NMN for a short  time and hoped for  positive posts from  many NMN users. Perhaps more will follow suit?

[bluemoon]

I can only find one NMN trial underway: The Washington University has an eight week trial of 50 women aged 55 to 75 to see if there are glucose and cardiovascular benefits with NMN but only 250 mg in capsule form is used. The trial ends June 2020.

 

Does anyone know if David Sinclair's NMN trials are located somewhere?

 

 

[Heisok]

The answers for the candidate "activators" might be in the patent application which involves some of the information William shared. Thanks William.

 

"Resetting biological pathways for defending against and repairing deterioration from human aging" 2017-04-13 WO2017062311A

 

Looks like at the time the results for the 61 year old were based on using 3 ingredients and combinations of the 3 with the NMN. Page 88. NMN, Betain, H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) and NaSH (Sodium Hydrogen Sulfide) As William has indicated, their regimen has evolved since then into 5 of the "activators" The candidate activators for the 5 "activators" might be from the categories described at the bottom of the title page.

 

Results are on page 91.

 

Google patent page: https://patents.goog...2017062311A1/ja

 

Link to the patent application pdf file: https://patentimages...017062311A1.pdf

 

 

 

 

[Andey]

The answers for the candidate "activators" might be in the patent application which involves some of the information William shared. Thanks William.

 

 

Interesting read. Thank you

[LawrenceW]

Heisok.

 

Very well done!

 

Only change is H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) OR NaSH (Sodium Hydrogen Sulfide) 

 

We tested both and found them to be equally effective.  The only difference NaSH made your breath smell like rotten eggs which made the choice easy.

[Andey]

Only change is H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) OR NaSH (Sodium Hydrogen Sulfide) 

 

We tested both and found them to be equally effective.  The only difference NaSH made your breath smell like rotten eggs which made the choice easy.

 

  Can you give a hint on how often one needs to use it for activating antioxidant system? Paper says its 2 PM when NAD is low but is it every day or once or twice a week?

[LawrenceW]

With every dose of NMN.

[able]

It has been awhile since my last post on my personal NMN experience. I have been quietly continuing my experimenting with NMN dosing and application methods. I am sharing this information on an informal basis and it is not to be taken as any kind of medical recommendation or advice.

 

......

 

Reviewing my various dosing regimens since my last post.

 

July 1, 2018              July 18, 2018    2.5 weeks  NMN w/Act.   500                 2                      1,000              Oral tablet      Good

 

500 mg twice per day of oral tablet NMN with activator worked just fine.

 

 

July 19, 2018             Sept. 24, 2018   2 months  NMN w/Act.   50                    7                         350              Sublingual     Good

 

Put together some 50 mg NMN sublinguals and took 7 of them per day a minimum of 1 hr. apart.  We capsuled up the activator and took the entire daily dose 1^st thing in the morning.  The results were equal to the 1,000 mg/day of oral tablets.

 

 

Sept. 25, 2018          Oct.14, 2018    3 weeks      NAD+ w/Act. 50                    8                         400              Sublingual     Good

 

Got some 99.1% purity NAD+ and tabletted it up for sublingual use. I took 8 per day a minimum of 1 hour apart and took the activator dose first thing in the morning. Made enough for a 1-month supply but the arthritis came back so strongly that I quit taking the NAD+ after 3 weeks. This result was very surprising as our quest, as I understood it, was to raise NAD+ in the blood levels.  Upon reviewing numerous research documents, I now believe that our quest is to raise intracellular NAD+ levels.

 

 

Oct. 15, 2018            Nov. 15, 2018   1 month     NMN w/Act.   30                    8                         240              Sublingual     Good

 

After researching as much as we could on sublingual dosing, saturation limits and cross membrane transport times we have come to believe that NMN is a great candidate for sublingual dosing.  We also believe that the saturation limit is 15 to 25 mgs per application and the transport time is somewhere around 45 minutes.  To test that theory we put together some 30 mg NMN sublinguals and took 8 per day with a minimum of 1 hour between dosings.  I also took the daily activator dose first thing in the morning. After 1 month of this regimen we found that the resulting benefits were the same as the 50 mg, 7 times per day regimen.

 

 

Nov. 16, 2018           Dec. 2, 2018    3 weeks      NMN only      30                    8                         240              Sublingual     Good

 

Tried the same 30 mg NMN sublingual 8 times per day but without the activator and found that my arthritis had returned by the 3^rd week.

 

 

Dec. 3, 2018                                                             NMN w/Act.   400                 2                         800              Oral tablet

Dec. 3, 2018                                                             NMN w/Act.   30                    6                         180              Sublingual

 

 

I have now started on what I believe will be my personal maximum benefits for minimum NMN dosing regimen. 400 mg of oral NMN with the activator twice per day interspersed with sublingual NMN 6 times per day.  I will be going in for my full blood test after 3 months of this regimen.  I will post the results when I receive them.

 

 

Lawrence - Thanks for such detailed history.  There is something I don’t understand about the dosage you are now taking.

 

Were you able to test your NAD+ levels to gauge the limits on NMN dosage you recommend of 30 mg per dosage?

 

Or was that based on the response you found with your arthritis as it suggests in your experience posted above ?

 

I ask because it doesn’t line up with what I have noticed from taking NMN powder over the last 9 months or so.

 

I usually take a scoop of around 125 mg powder, in the morning and usually before exercise.

 

But I sometimes experiment with larger dosages, especially before exercise.

 

I have found that 4 scoops (roughly 500 mg) is WAY too much for me personally in a single dose.

 

It is not subjective - my heart rate increases close to 20 bpm.

 

I clearly find that 250 or 500 mg provides more “kick” than a 125 mg dose, so it doesn’t seem to have a limit of 30 mg.

 

I would certainly like to save some $ if I am wasting anything over 30 mg per dose, but it doesn't match up with my experience at all.

 

I am guessing the powder is getting distributed across a much larger surface area, so maybe the uptake is much more than with a tablet that comes in contact with membranes over a much smaller area. 

 

But this also doesn’t match up with your experience on travel time.  I get the increase heart rate within minutes, so it clearly is not taking 45 minute to take effect.  When you say 45 minute transport time, do you mean that it is in the system for 45 minutes,  or what?

 

 

 

 

Edited by able, 12 January 2019 - 10:36 AM.

[stefan_001]

@able you may want to factor in the test history of LawrenceW. He reported this regimen before:

 

- I began taking Nicotinamide Mononucleotide (NMN) on July 15, 2015 and took my last dose of NMN for our first test program on April 7, 2016. I took a 3,400mg of NMN dose twice daily.

 

That means he has used extreme mega dose of about 7gram / day of NMN for 10 months. I could imagine that has long lasting or permanent effects on his overloaded pathways and possibly triggered other homeostatic behavior that have not yet fully recovered. In any case that is in the unknown territory and hence should be taken into account when reading his reports - they may as well reflect the journey of normalizing pathways so he sees effects with less dose over time.

Edited by stefan_001, 12 January 2019 - 12:50 PM.

[stefan_001]

Heisok.

 

Very well done!

 

Only change is H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) OR NaSH (Sodium Hydrogen Sulfide) 

 

We tested both and found them to be equally effective.  The only difference NaSH made your breath smell like rotten eggs which made the choice easy.

 

You and your company are aware that the FDA requires that any peroxide to be broken down into oxygen and water before the product reaches consumers in case of oral use. Drinking hydrogen peroxide (as you claim your product is a drink) can cause vomiting, severe burns of the throat and stomach, and even death. Then again maybe nothing is true of this alleged use.

Edited by stefan_001, 12 January 2019 - 01:05 PM.

[Andey]

You and your company are aware that the FDA requires that any peroxide to be broken down into oxygen and water before the product reaches consumers in case of oral use. Drinking hydrogen peroxide (as you claim your product is a drink) can cause vomiting, severe burns of the throat and stomach, and even death. Then again maybe nothing is true of this alleged use.

 

  A lot of people take few drops of H2O2 in water for health benefits so I assume it is safe in this context.

[able]

@able you may want to factor in the test history of LawrenceW. He reported this regimen before:

 

- I began taking Nicotinamide Mononucleotide (NMN) on July 15, 2015 and took my last dose of NMN for our first test program on April 7, 2016. I took a 3,400mg of NMN dose twice daily.

 

That means he has used extreme mega dose of about 7gram / day of NMN for 10 months. I could imagine that has long lasting or permanent effects on his overloaded pathways and possibly triggered other homeostatic behavior that have not yet fully recovered. In any case that is in the unknown territory and hence should be taken into account when reading his reports - they may as well reflect the journey of normalizing pathways so he sees effects with less dose over time.

 

That scenario may be possible.  But since they seem to have used regular blood testing, would they have been likely to  have noticed anything "strange"?

 

I would guess that such extreme dosages of NMN or NR would put the liver at risk, but if that was not damaged, would likely just get pissed away.

[Oakman]

As NaSH and H2O2 are things I'm not willing to ingest, but research shows sulfur has positive effects on NAD+ levels when taken with its precursors, I've been using several sulphur compounds. That is, a garlic supplement, All-Gar, twice daily, plus 600 mgs NAC, with NMN and NR (until I ran out recently) and when exercising - MSM (several grams) with extra precursor to insure significant sulphur in my regimen. It's been about 6 months using these sulphur compounds, no problems to date.

 

"All•Gar starts with 400 mg. of allicin-rich Allium sativum garlic powder delivering about 5,000 mcg. allicin and stabilized allicin as diallyl trisulfide.  ... To this “high-allicin” garlic, we add 200 mg. of nutrient-rich green leaves from the wild bear’s garlic plant, Allium ursinum. This garlic variety grows wild in the European foothills and has high levels of adenosine, sulfur, magnesium, manganese, iron, zinc and phosphorous. ...  By combining both the bulb and the leaves of the garlic plant, All•Gar™ gives you more of what you take garlic for. More sulfur and minerals, twice the phosphorous and up to 10 times the amount of adenosine."

[LawrenceW]

  A lot of people take few drops of H2O2 in water for health benefits so I assume it is safe in this context.

 

I take 3 drops per day diluted in 6 to 8 ounces of water.

[stefan_001]

@oakman usefull list. I have used Taurine to increase H2S, was thinking to add NAC but going off topic here. Perhaps worth a thread sulfur benefits in combination with NAD+ boosting

Edited by stefan_001, 12 January 2019 - 05:31 PM.

[Oakman]

@oakman usefull list. I have used Taurine to increase H2S, was thinking to add NAC but going off topic here. Perhaps worth a thread sulfur benefits in combination with NAD+ boosting

 

Absolutely, forget about that! My cycling hydration mix is often Beet Juice concentrate, Taurine (2-3 grams), D-Ribose (5 grams), and MSM (3-5 grams)with a bit of some fruit juice. Does the body good! Also, how is it off topic when it's what our personal experience actually is?

Edited by Oakman, 12 January 2019 - 06:36 PM.

[stefan_001]

@oakman well NMN thread but personal experience yes. BTW here an interesting paper on NAC:
N-Acetyl Cysteine Functions as a Fast-Acting Antioxidant by Triggering Intracellular H2S and Sulfane Sulfur Production

https://www.scienced...451945618300333

 

Wrt Ribose I have seen many positive studies but  I have stayed clear from ribose because of a possible role in AGEs:
https://www.scienced...304416512000062

 

MSM havent really looked at yet.

[Phoebus]

well its the interaction of H2S boosters and NAD precursors that is intriguing. Its possible they are synergistic and working together their effects are amplified.  

 

Garlic extract is a great H2S booster, and has so many benefits its kind of a no brainer for me. 

 

Sounds like H2S performs many functions in the body including protecting the mitochondria. And isn't taking NAD boosters theoretically strengthening our mito? So theoretically they should work together 

 

https://www.hindawi....cl/2012/878052/

 

Edited by Phoebus, 12 January 2019 - 07:57 PM.

[LawrenceW]

Hello Able.

 

A lot of good questions.

 

Were you able to test your NAD+ levels to gauge the limits on NMN dosage you recommend of 30 mg per dosage?

 

To begin with I would like to state that I am not recommending anything.  I am simply sharing with the forum members my personal experience and the personal beliefs that I have developed over the last 5 years.

 

When we began this quest back in early 2014 there were no NMN studies or NMN human testing practices. As LabCorp does not offer a test for NAD+ blood levels we had to devise a different testing protocol to determine the efficacy of NMN supplementing. We began with full blood panels that you would receive at your annual physicals and added some inflammation tests.  At the time it was well recognized that the older you got, the higher your inflammation levels were and conversely the younger you were, the lower your inflammation levels.  NMN was put forward as an anti-aging solution so we felt that it would be appropriate to measure inflammation levels. We added Tumor Necrosis Factor alpha (TNF-α) and Interleukin-6 (IL-6) to the standard testing regimens. In October 2015 Y. Arai published Inflammation, But Not Telomere Length, Predicts Successful Ageing at Extreme Old Age: A Longitudinal Study of Semi-supercentenarians. This study gave us comfort that we were testing the correct parameters. Early on we found that it took a full 3 months of supplementation for the blood test results to stabilize. As it sits today our medical advisers have chosen to monitor the following blood markers for efficacy of supplementing and dosing with NMN.

C-Reactive Protein

TNF-α

IL-6

Glucose, Serum

Creatine, Serum

BUN

BUN/Creatine ratio

eGFR

AST (SGOT)

ALT (SPGT)

HgB A1C (Diabetes)

Cholesterol (Total)

Triglycerides

HDL Cholesterol

LDL Cholesterol

Testosterone

PSA

 

Early on I recognized that when the doses were too low the arthritic pain in my knuckles started to return.  So instead of having to wait the full 3 months to do a blood test I knew that the results would come in below expectations, so I would terminate whichever regimen I was on and start a new one.  If I had 3 full months on a regimen with no arthritis pain, then I knew that it was successful and worthwhile to spend the money on a new blood test.

 

With the 25 mg sublingual dose I started to get mild arthritis pain. The 30 mg sublingual dose was pain free and gave me the same blood analysis results as the 50 mg dose. I am currently 212 pounds so 1 mg per 7 pounds.

 

I ask because it doesn’t line up with what I have noticed from taking NMN powder over the last 9 months or so.

 

I usually take a scoop of around 125 mg powder, in the morning and usually before exercise.

 

But I sometimes experiment with larger dosages, especially before exercise.

 

I have found that 4 scoops (roughly 500 mg) is WAY too much for me personally in a single dose.

 

It is not subjective - my heart rate increases close to 20 bpm.

 

I clearly find that 250 or 500 mg provides more “kick” than a 125 mg dose, so it doesn’t seem to have a limit of 30 mg.

 

I would certainly like to save some $ if I am wasting anything over 30 mg per dose, but it doesn't match up with my experience at all.

 

I am guessing the powder is getting distributed across a much larger surface area, so maybe the uptake is much more than with a tablet that comes in contact with membranes over a much smaller area. 

 

My personal belief is that the membrane under the tongue is fully loaded or has hit its saturation point at a maximum of 30 mgs and probably somewhat less.  Therefore around 30 mg of whatever amount you place under the tongue is entering sublingually and the rest is getting swallowed.  We have noticed with participants that have very active daily cardiovascular routines, that the oral NMN really kicks in heavily such as you describe above.

 

But this also doesn’t match up with your experience on travel time.  I get the increase heart rate within minutes, so it clearly is not taking 45 minute to take effect.  When you say 45 minute transport time, do you mean that it is in the system for 45 minutes,  or what?

 

Travel time refers to the total time from when the NMN is first placed under the tongue until the last molecule has traveled through the membrane into the bloodstream. The first molecules to pass through may well do that very quickly and in the order of seconds or the minutes that you are experiencing.

 

Again, this is based on my personal experience and the feedback that I have received from our other participants.

Edited by LawrenceW, 13 January 2019 - 12:14 AM.

[LawrenceW]

  A lot of people take few drops of H2O2 in water for health benefits so I assume it is safe in this context.

 

For those that wanted some reference material

 

https://educate-your...jul03.shtml#top

[LawrenceW]

You and your company are aware that the FDA requires that any peroxide to be broken down into oxygen and water before the product reaches consumers in case of oral use. Drinking hydrogen peroxide (as you claim your product is a drink) can cause vomiting, severe burns of the throat and stomach, and even death. Then again maybe nothing is true of this alleged use.

 

Stefan

 

You do realize that H2O2 breaks down into oxygen and water as soon as it comes in contact with organic material.  NMN is organic as are the other activators. The H2O2 is added immediately before you drink the NMN making our method fully compliant with the FDA requirement.

 

3 drops of H2O2 added to 6 to 8 ounces of water will NEVER cause vomiting, severe burns of the throat and stomach, and even death.

 

Please stop spreading FUD on this thread.

Edited by LawrenceW, 13 January 2019 - 12:40 AM.

[Phoebus]

so you are taking the H2o2 right along with the NMN? 

 

are you not concerned the h202 will directly oxidize the NMN? wouldn't it be better to space them out? 

[LawrenceW]

so you are taking the H2o2 right along with the NMN? 

 

are you not concerned the h202 will directly oxidize the NMN? wouldn't it be better to space them out? 

 

 

Been doing it this way since 2015 and it seems to work just fine.

[sthira]

Stefan

You do realize that H2O2 breaks down into oxygen and water as soon as it comes in contact with organic material. NMN is organic as are the other activators. The H2O2 is added immediately before you drink the NMN making our method fully compliant with the FDA requirement.

3 drops of H2O2 added to 6 to 8 ounces of water will NEVER cause vomiting, severe burns of the throat and stomach, and even death.

Please stop spreading FUD on this thread.

I rinse my mouth out with hydrogen peroxide, and it's perhaus the best thing I've ever done for my teeth and gums. The trick is do not leave it in the mouth too long so it won't burn, and then rinse it out immediately afterward with water. Even so, I'm probably ingesting some of it, which I've always assumed breaks down into oxygen and water anyway.

[stefan_001]

@lawrenceW Ok, not harmful. Have you found any research that confirms some orally consumed drops of H2O2 activates the bodies antioxidant system? What do you mean by that actually? I would imagine that in practice you add some drops to your NMN drink and swallow it down immediately so in the stomach the H2O2 oxidizes whatever floats around and never leaves the stomach?

Edited by stefan_001, 13 January 2019 - 06:56 AM.

[boroda]

And what about taking NMN with Methylene Blue? Sounds like a highly synergistic combination.

[Andey]

When I wrote that there is a lot of people who take H2O2 I meant that there is a big movement in Russian speaking internet to take it.

Dosage is roughly the same as people use 20-30 drops of 3% solution that is equal to 2-3 drops of 35%.

People claim to cure all kind of things with it, including cancer. This practice is usually criticized as a woo-woo by sensible people here.

 

I rinse my mouth out with hydrogen peroxide, and it's perhaus the best thing I've ever done for my teeth and gums. The trick is do not leave it in the mouth too long so it won't burn, and then rinse it out immediately afterward with water. Even so, I'm probably ingesting some of it, which I've always assumed breaks down into oxygen and water anyway.

 

I imagine you use a 3% H2O2 for it, undiluted 35% could be too harsh for this. Just to be clear so nobody would harm himself.