672 replies to this topic

[LawrenceW]

That may be true but then why do you (or anyone else) think Charles Brenner, a leading NR researcher, said that he raised his NR dose from 250 mg to 500 mg in 2017?

 

 

From this October 2016 Chromadex Press Release 

ChromaDex (CDXC) Announces Publication of Data on NAD+ Precursors NR, NMN

 

"Dr. Charles Brenner, found that effective supplementation with NMN depends on conversion to NR."

 

 "This enabled them to determine that NMN is converted to NR before entry into liver cells and cannot be converted to NAD+ without the presence of NRK1."

 

Both these quotes were recently proven to be wrong by this report.  

Slc12a8 is a nicotinamide mononucleotide transporter

 

So to answer your question, it appears that the good Dr. is willing to say anything to increase the sales of NR.

Edited by LawrenceW, 23 January 2019 - 01:38 AM.

[Nat1971a]

Hi All

Quick report on my experience. Recently switched from niagen to sublingual nmn. And have been experimenting with different dosages. Yesterday and today I decided to trial 1x sublingual nmn with 1 x swallowed truniagen. This is a superior combination. I now feel like the hulk. About me. I am 47 healthy male

[Nat1971a]

Forgot to mention that I also took 1 broccomax yesterday but not today

[stefan_001]

@nat1971a the logic for combining is there, smart move. If possible could you share the dosing you use please?

[Nat1971a]

Day 1
1 x alive by nature sublingual 125mg
1 x truniagen swallowed 250mg
1 x broccomax 30mg

Day 2
1 x. Alive by nature sublingual 125mg
1 x truniagen swallowed. 250mg

[bluemoon]

@nat1971a the logic for combining is there, smart move. If possible could you share the dosing you use please?

 

What is the logic behind that?

[stefan_001]

What is the logic behind that?

 

I have posted several times the expression atlas links for the NRKs and for the possible NMN transporter Slc12a8. If more research confirms the Slc12a8 fucntion then both have different paths with and different expression in various tissues. So they act partly complementary. The NRKs still seem to be "bigger movers" but there is now a logic to take both.

 

@Nat1971a thanks for the dosing info.
 

[Nat1971a]

My logic is as follows:-   

 

Goal is to increase NAD & decrease CD38

 

 

Dr. Chini’s research has shown that CD38 increases by up to two-and-a-half times in the fat tissue of older individuals.........

Published research shows that CD38 appears to be the main NAD-destroying enzyme in mammalian tissues and plays a role in age-related NAD-decline.  https://www.elysiumh...nic-and-harvard

 

 

Some natural CD38 inhibitors are:

camomile tea

brocolli sprouts

celery

 

 

Solution is to combine brocolli sprouts (broccomax) with NMN & Niagen. Brocolli Sprouts has numerous other benefits.

[smithx]

This seems of interest to the above discussion:
 
Flavonoids as inhibitors of human CD38
https://www.research...s_of_human_CD38

Table 1 Effect of flavonoid-like natural products on the catalytic activity of human CD38			
			
No.	Compound		IC50a(lM)
			
1	Luteolinidin		6.0 ± 0.5
2	Kuromanin		6.3 ± 0.6
3	Delphinidin		14.6 ± 1
4	Pelargonidin		16.3 ± 2.0
5	Malvidin		17.0 ± 2.2
6	Quercetagetinidin	14.2 ± 1.8
7	Peonidin		20.9 ± 1.2
8	Cyanidin		21.8 ± 2.6
9	Diosmetinidinb		32.1 ± 1.8
10	Petunidin		39.2 ± 2.1
11	Fisetinidin		70.3 ± 3.9
12	Luteolin		8.2 ± 0.2
13	Myricetin		24.8 ± 1.8
14	Quercetin		37.9 ± 0.1
15	Robinetin		37.9 ± 2.1
16	Quercetagetin		48.6 ± 2.9
17	rac-Taxifolin		>100
18	rac-Catechin		>100
19	Piceatannol		>100
20	trans-Resveratrol	>100
			
a The IC50 values represent means ± SD of three independent experiments.	
b The 40 position is methylated.
		

In this table, the compounds are arranged from most inhibitory to least inhibitory.

Edited by smithx, 30 January 2019 - 03:31 AM.

[Phoebus]

Whats the difference between luteolin and luteolinidin? Quercetagetinidin and quercetin?

 

 

[male_1978]

My logic is as follows:-   

 

Goal is to increase NAD & decrease CD38

 

 

 

Ok i am not a doctor and i might not have a qualified oppinion here.

 

But the fact, that CD38 increases with age might not be an argument that we should reduce it.

 

It could as well be a beneficial reaction to something else. E.g. if more DNA repair is needed because of more damage, i would not conclude that reducing damage repair is useful. We first have to clarify whether more or less CD38 is harmful or beneficial.

[smithx]

DNA repair requires a lot of intracellular energy in the form of ATP.

 

Reduced NAD+ also causes reduced ATP production. This inhibits DNA repair.

 

If CD38 is reducing ATP, that's a bad thing.

 

It's certainly not impossible that there is something else it is doing that's good, but no one has cited anything in that direction so far.

 

 

Ok i am not a doctor and i might not have a qualified oppinion here.

 

But the fact, that CD38 increases with age might not be an argument that we should reduce it.

 

It could as well be a beneficial reaction to something else. E.g. if more DNA repair is needed because of more damage, i would not conclude that reducing damage repair is useful. We first have to clarify whether more or less CD38 is harmful or beneficial.

 

[Phoebus]

 

 

It's certainly not impossible that there is something else it is doing that's good, but no one has cited anything in that direction so far.

 

CD38 is a key regulator of enhanced NK cell immune responses during pregnancy through its role in 2 immune synapse formation

 

https://www.biorxiv....349084.full.pdf

 

Innate immunity is regulated by CD38

 

 

http://www.academia....yclase_activity

[smithx]

Good references. So it appears that too little CD38 activity in immune cells could reduce immunity.

 

The question is: how much is the right amount of CD38?

 

If the claim that it is excessively upregulated in older people, then decreasing it could put it back into an optimal range.

 

On the other hand, if it's upregulated for a reason, perhaps to help kill increased numbers of cancer cells which form in older people, inhibiting it could be a big problem.

 

More data is needed!

 

 

 

CD38 is a key regulator of enhanced NK cell immune responses during pregnancy through its role in 2 immune synapse formation

 

https://www.biorxiv....349084.full.pdf

 

Innate immunity is regulated by CD38

 

 

http://www.academia....yclase_activity

 

[Ambrosia]

Hi All

Quick report on my experience. Recently switched from niagen to sublingual nmn. And have been experimenting with different dosages. Yesterday and today I decided to trial 1x sublingual nmn with 1 x swallowed truniagen. This is a superior combination. I now feel like the hulk. About me. I am 47 healthy male

Good stuff mate, I’ve been doing sublingual NR with great results so far. I’m about to order some NMN to try this combo, I wonder if it would also help with negative feedback loop?

[Phoebus]

Good references. So it appears that too little CD38 activity in immune cells could reduce immunity.

 

The question is: how much is the right amount of CD38?

 

If the claim that it is excessively upregulated in older people, then decreasing it could put it back into an optimal range.

 

On the other hand, if it's upregulated for a reason, perhaps to help kill increased numbers of cancer cells which form in older people, inhibiting it could be a big problem.

 

More data is needed!

 

 

CD38 is iflammatory and is associated with cancers such as prostate cancer via NF-κB cytokine production. 

 

https://www.cell.com...11124716315510=

 

My personal theory is that reducing over all chronic inflammation levels with multiple methods is the best way to suppress CD38 and keep it  optimal levels. 

 

 

CD38 Is Expressed on Inflammatory Cells of the Intestine and Promotes Intestinal Inflammation

 

https://journals.plo...al.pone.0126007

[Harkijn]

In another thread able pointed to this very recent NMN review. The authors state that NMN itself has a direct inhibitory effect on CD38. If confirmed that would diminish the need for NMN users to take, say, apigenin.

(btw there are several interesting dormant threads on CD38 on Longecity )

Attached Files

•  klimova2019.pdf   1.08MB   17 downloads

[Phoebus]

So Sinclair is doing 1 gr/day. As stated on the Rogan podcast

 

ABN's pure NMN powder is $70/12grams

 

1 gr/day would be $177/month. 

 

that is actually not that bad I guess. But it is more than i have been doing thats for sure. 

[yanli]

So is the consensus on NMN that it truly works?

If that is the case, what are the recommended dosages? Sinclair talked about 1 gram a day, right?

Also, which companies sell legit NMN? Which ones were the ones used in the study on mice?

[LawrenceW]

Fredrik, on 06 Feb 2019 - 08:24 AM, said:

Thank you LawrenceW. That paper though (not a study) says absolutely nothing about NMN/NR with no references to any trials comparing those molecules via sublingual vs oral route.

 

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

As with every other aspect of NMN supplementation, we are early and have choices to make.  Dr. Sinclair first made his announcement on NMN in Dec. 2013. We could either wait for the studies to get published  or do self experimentation.  We decided that we were too old already and did not have the years to wait for the studies to get published (we would still be waiting 5 years later). As you may or may not be aware, we began self experimentation under medical supervision late in 2014. After 6 months of 1 individual supplementing with NMN, our medical supervisor was comfortable in that he could find no side effects and cleared the next 6 (of which I was one) individuals to begin supplementing.  Since that time we have proven to our selves and confirmed with blood tests that the vast majority of benefits that have been written about in the mouse and rat studies translate to humans.  Over the years we have proven to our selves as to what we believe the optimum oral dose to be.  It was very comforting to us that almost a year after we settled on  the 1,000 mg daily oral dose that Dr. Sinclair stated that he was now taking 1,000 mg per day. 

 

In April 2018 we (now 70 individuals) began experimenting with sublingual administration of NMN.  After testing both dosing amount and frequency and comparing them against our blood work results for the 1,000 mg oral, we proved to our selves that:

 

A. We believe that a 30 mg per dose is the largest amount of NMN that is transported sublingually per dose. We believe that the membrane is saturated at that amount and any extra NMN is simply swallowed.

B. We found that 8-10 doses of 30 mg of sublingual per day a minimum of 1 hour apart gave us the same blood work results as 1,000 mg taken orally.

C. We believe that as with oral supplementation, homeostasis kicks in at around 4 weeks.

D. We believe that by keeping multiple anti-aging pathways in balance that the triggering of the homeostatic negative feedback loop can be avoided.

 

These are our personal findings and beliefs and we look forward to some day in the future, when some one else publishes their studies, as to the accuracy of our findings.

 

So the question remains.  Do you want to wait until some or all the studies have been published or do you want to self experiment and find the answers for your self?

[LawrenceW]

Duplicate

Edited by LawrenceW, 06 February 2019 - 06:16 PM.

[midas]

 

Fredrik, on 06 Feb 2019 - 08:24 AM, said:

 

 

Exactly.

 

As with every other aspect of NMN supplementation, we are early and have choices to make.  Dr. Sinclair first made his announcement on NMN in Dec. 2013. We could either wait for the studies to get published  or do self experimentation.  We decided that we were too old already and did not have the years to wait for the studies to get published (we would still be waiting 5 years later). As you may or may not be aware, we began self experimentation under medical supervision late in 2014. After 6 months of 1 individual supplementing with NMN, our medical supervisor was comfortable in that he could find no side effects and cleared the next 6 (of which I was one) individuals to begin supplementing.  Since that time we have proven to our selves and confirmed with blood tests that the vast majority of benefits that have been written about in the mouse and rat studies translate to humans.  Over the years we have proven to our selves as to what we believe the optimum oral dose to be.  It was very comforting to us that almost a year after we settled on  the 1,000 mg daily oral dose that Dr. Sinclair stated that he was now taking 1,000 mg per day. 

 

In April 2018 we (now 70 individuals) began experimenting with sublingual administration of NMN.  After testing both dosing amount and frequency and comparing them against our blood work results for the 1,000 mg oral, we proved to our selves that:

 

A. We believe that a 30 mg per dose is the largest amount of NMN that is transported sublingually per dose. We believe that the membrane is saturated at that amount and any extra NMN is simply swallowed.

B. We found that 8-10 doses of 30 mg of sublingual per day a minimum of 1 hour apart gave us the same blood work results as 1,000 mg taken orally.

C. We believe that as with oral supplementation, homeostasis kicks in at around 4 weeks.

D. We believe that by keeping multiple anti-aging pathways in balance that the triggering of the homeostatic negative feedback loop can be avoided.

 

These are our personal findings and beliefs and we look forward to some day in the future, when some one else publishes their studies, as to the accuracy of our findings.

 

So the question remains.  Do you want to wait until some or all the studies have been published or do you want to self experiment and find the answers for your self?

 

 

And we have ONE persons word for ALL of this with no corroborating evidence....You would have thought out of 70 of you, you could do far better than what we see here.

 

Call me cynical but...this is all just hearsay from ONE individual and we have no way of verifying any of it....

 

I'l wait for the science thank you very much.
 

Edited by midas, 06 February 2019 - 07:48 PM.

[Hebbeh]

And we have ONE persons word for ALL of this with no corroborating evidence....You would have thought out of 70 of you, you could do far better than what we see here.

Call me cynical but...this is all just hearsay from ONE individual and we have no way of verifying any of it....

I'l wait for the science thank you very much.

Umm....this is the personal experience thread.

[midas]

Umm....this is the personal experience thread.

Which is fine but when you mention another 70 peoples experiences to back up what you are saying without any evidence then it's beyond 'personal experience'

 

I thought this was supposed to be a science based forum, some evidence of these claims should be submitted, surely?

 

Dont you think that if there were another 70 people involved in this we would have heard from at least one or two of them on this forum?.....I do.

 

One persons word, that's all we have here. No science and nothing we can check to see if any of it is true...I'm not even slightly convinced.

[Fredrik]

LawrenceW

 

Why are you copying and pasting my posts and your replies from the "Dr. David A Sinclair on Joe Rogan"-thread in here? I have never posted that in this thread.

 

Is it to maximize exposure to your NMN-company that you keep re-posting the same text in several threads. To drum up business. Just strange.

Edited by Fredrik, 07 February 2019 - 08:07 PM.

[LawrenceW]

LawrenceW

 

Why are you copying and pasting my posts and your replies from the "Dr. David A Sinclair on Joe Rogan"-thread in here? I have never posted that in this thread.

 

 

Fredrik.

 

I felt that my answer to your post was more relevant to the NMN personal experience thread so I posted it over here.  

[Phoebus]

Why is ABN constantly out of NMN powder ? what the hell? 

 

https://alivebynatur...mononucleotide/

 

every time I try to order its out of stock, get your sht together ABN 

[Fredrik]

Fredrik.

 

I felt that my answer to your post was more relevant to the NMN personal experience thread so I posted it over here.  

 

Lawrence.

 

I don´t think you felt that at all. Our discussion about the lack of science supporting the ideá of sublingual NMN being superior to oral NMN isn´t relevant in this personal experience thread and I think you know that. I was not talking about personal experiences at all, just published science. 

 

The readers can make up their minds why you may have wanted to copy and paste my posts and repeat the selling points of your commercial NMN enterprise in several threads at once.

[bluemoon]

 

 

The readers can make up their minds why you may have wanted to copy and paste my posts and repeat the selling points of your commercial NMN enterprise in several threads at once.

 

What brand of NMN is he selling?

[Fredrik]

What brand of NMN is he selling?

 

I don´t think he has been public with the source of his NMN. You will have to ask him.