672 replies to this topic

[MikeDC]

Supposedly, NMN Is better for physical performance (true for me) and NAD+ is for mental performance (I have not noticed that).

What do you mean by NAD+? NMN turns to NAD+ inside cells.

[WillNitschke]

The more I've been reading and studying these health topics (an incredibly complex subject), the more I tend to be in agreement with you on the age issue. I've 52 so your age of 61 could be a significant factor here, as you claim to be experiencing benefits from the supplement that I am not. The other possibly significant difference is that you're also using a much higher dose.

 

BTW, I found the 'demand' for references from two nitwits on my earlier comment in the "personal experiences thread" rather amusing... 

 

It's a strange thing about anecdotes - most people say they don't mean much, unless it is their own.

 

I personally have seen great improvement in endurance and muscle building over the last 18 months with NMN.

 

At 61, I have 44 years of consistent training.  Some periods of slack, and some periods where I focused more on running or riding, but in the gym an average of 2 days a week over those years.

 

I'm not saying it helped me get stronger than in my 20s, but I definately restored the performance lost over the last 15-20 years.

 

Perhaps you are still able to lift the same as younger and haven't seen much dropoff yet?   If so, I wouldn't expect NMN to help you get stronger.

 

Also, I often take 1 gram a day (but a lot of variation and skip several days).

 

I also prefer the powder.

 

So those might be reasons we notice different effects.  

 

Or perhaps there is a biological reason I benefit from it and you don't.  But I really doubt the 15-20% improvement  I have seen  is placebo.

 

Edited by WillNitschke, 21 September 2019 - 09:54 AM.

[LawrenceW]

I first started taking NMN dietary supplements on July 11, 2015. Over the past 4 years I have tried daily dosages ranging from 40 mgs per day to 6,800 mgs per day. I have tried liquid, pills, capsules and sublingual. My criteria for success was not to simply raise the NAD+ level in my blood, but to measurably affect my blood bio-markers in a positive manner.

 

The following bio-markers have changed since I began my NMN supplementation.

 

BUN - When your kidneys are not healthy, they have trouble removing BUN and leave more of it in your blood.   My BUN improved by 50% by dropping from a pre-NMN 14.0 to 7.0.

 

Glomerular filtration rate (GFR) is a measure of the function of the kidneys. This test measures the level of creatinine in the blood and uses the result in a formula to calculate a number that reflects how well the kidneys are functioning, called the estimated GFR or eGFR. The higher the number the better your kidney is functioning. If your number drops below 60 it is time to see your doctor. My eGFR increased from 74.4 to 93.0. An approximate 25% improvement of my kidney functions.

 

If your bilirubin levels are higher than normal, it’s a sign that either your red blood cells are breaking down at an unusual rate or that your liver isn’t breaking down waste properly and clearing the bilirubin from your blood. My Bilirubin number improved 37% by dropping from 1.6 to 1.0.

 

The HbA1c test is a common blood test used to diagnose type 1 and type 2 diabetes and to monitor how well you're managing your diabetes. 5.6 and lower is normal. 5.7 to 6.4 is considered to be pre-diabetic. 6.5 and above is considered diabetic. My HbA1c dropped from a pre-diabetic 6.0 to a high normal of 5.6.

 

My cholesterol numbers had always been pretty good and within normal ranges.  They all improved somewhat. 

 

Cardiac risk of 3.03 to 5.37 is considered to be in the normal range. Mine was an already low risk of 1.92 but dropped to an even lower risk of 1.26. As my doctor commented “I now have less risk of a heart attack than a 20-year-old.”

 

Testosterone increased 47% from 227 to 335.

 

Aging results in chronic low-grade inflammation that is associated with increased risk for disease, poor physical functioning and mortality. Strategies that reduce age-related inflammation may improve the quality of life in older adults. 

 

C-reactive protein (CRP) is produced by the liver. The level of CRP rises when there is inflammation throughout the body. It is one of a group of proteins called acute phase reactants that go up in response to inflammation. My CRP dropped from 0.7 to a low of 0.31.

 

Tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF-α), a protein in your body that causes inflammation and helps coordinate the process. My TNF-α dropped from 1.8 to 1.2.

 

Interleukin 6 (IL-6) is an interleukin that acts as a pro-inflammatory cytokine. My IL-6 dropped from 1.2 to less than 0.7.

 

Biological Age - One of the major impediments in human aging research is the absence of a comprehensive and actionable set of biomarkers that may be targeted and measured to track the effectiveness of therapeutic interventions. In this study, www.aging.ai designed a modular ensemble of 21 deep neural networks (DNNs) of varying depth, structure and optimization to predict human chronological age using a basic blood test. You can track your own biological age at :  http://www.aging.ai/aging-v3/?m=us#form_inp

 

According to www.aging.ai, in March 2010 when I was 52, my biological age was 43. Currently, I am 61 and my biological age is now 33. Nine years chronologically older and ten years biologically younger.

 

Physically:

 

I dropped about 20 pounds of fat and replaced that with 10 to 12 pounds of muscle.

 

Years ago, I was diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis. Within 3 weeks of beginning NMN I noticed that all the small joints in my hands were pain free and loose.  By 3 months all my major joints were also pain free and loose.

 

My hair is darker and my bald spot has not gotten any bigger.

 

My vision has improved both for distance and reading.

 

The crow’s feet around my eyes have noticeably flattened.

 

I sleep longer and wake more rejuvenated.

 

My energy level feels like when I was 20 years younger.

 

I stand taller and have been told that I have a much younger gait.

 

All of the above is what I consider to be my benefits from my NMN supplementation regimen.

 

[WinnieBeeRich]

Thanks for the update and congrats on coming back to 33 yrs old, Lawrence. I could live with coming back to 30. 

 

Looking forward to more about dosing and activators. Take your time.

[bluemoon]

  You can track your own biological age at :   http://www.aging.ai/.../?m=us#form_inp

 

I put in all the data I have with everything normal except my HDL is too low at 32. I'm also at a BMI of 30 so right at obese - not good. Still, I'm 50 and was told I'm really 37. People usually think I'm 5 years younger, but I definitely feel 50.

[LawrenceW]

Hello Bluemoon.

 

What regimen are you on and for how long? 

 

Apparently the aging.ai database is now over 200,000 individuals, so you can feel fairly comfortable that your bio-markers indicate that you now have the blood of the average 37 year old coursing through your veins!

[bluemoon]

 

What regimen are you on and for how long? 

 

 

Just 250 mg of NR for two years and 300 mg for the past six months.

[Aak]

I wonder what the age is that people should commence taking nmn, would taking it in your 30/40s be detrimental in any way or just a waste of money by not noticing much benefit that you would receive by taking it at an older age, I d recall a news program about this that dr Sinclair had said it may benefit infertility which would put its use I’d think to a younger audience? .
Those that have commented that they had skin benefits (other then Lawrence stating that it was his lines which improved) what where the benefits? Did it help any skin damage or age spots ?

[smithx]

No one seems to be taking seriously the reports about potential dangers of NMN, like axonal degradation.

 

Not sure why that is.

[LawrenceW]

No one seems to be taking seriously the reports about potential dangers of NMN, like axonal degradation.

 

Not sure why that is.

 

 

Hello Smithx.

 

This topic has already been discussed at great length in this thread:

 

https://www.longecit...al degradation

 

I tend to agree with Warner, the Topic Starter's conclusion that:

 

"Okay, so the way I read this is that the glaucoma researchers (Williams et al.) are on the right track, pushing cheap NAM or finding ways to activate Nmnat, but that they missed the role of SARM1 in all of this.  Furthermore, they mistakenly assumed that promoting higher NMN levels (via Nampt or NR or NMN supplementation) might further neuron destruction, when in fact such strategies provide modest protection (by maintaining NAD levels in the face of rising SARM1), although not as protective as higher Nmnat activity (as with Wlds mutation)."

[smithx]

These are actually different additional references to NMN axonal degradation:

 

Accumulation of NMN promotes axonal degeneration in cases of physical injury as well as in chemotherapeutic-induced mouse models of peripheral neuropathy (Di Stefano et al., 2015; Di Stefano et al., 2017). In one experiment, NMN levels rose 2.5 fold (≈ 4 nmol/g) after axonal injury (Di Stefano et al., 2015). Although the rise is due to the inability of the required enzyme to reach its place of action, exogenous delivery of NMN also promoted axonal degeneration. Additionally, NR is converted to NMN so if the enzyme (NNMAT) is overwhelmed or not functioning well, it could lead to an accumulation of NMN and axonal toxicity. Bypassing NMN production has been shown to protect neurons from chemotherapy-induced degeneration (Liu et al., 2018).

 

Therefore, it is important to consider that creating a state of NAD+ excess and increased levels of metabolites could have unintended effects in the CNS or elsewhere.

 

There seem to be quite a lot of potential risks associated with NAD replenishment supplementation. See: https://www.longecit...on-supplements/

 

This topic has already been discussed at great length in this thread:

 

https://www.longecit...al degradation

 

 

[LawrenceW]

Smithx.  Why are you regurgitating your post from 1 year ago?

 

 

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 11:07 PM

The abstract says:

 

Quote

 ... Collectively, our data indicate that maintaining NAD+ is not sufficient to protect DRG neurons from vincristine- induced axon degeneration, and elevating NMN, by itself, is not sufficient to cause degeneration. Nonetheless, the combination of FK866 and NAR, which bypasses NMN formation, may provide a therapeutic strategy for neuroprotection.

 

They are talking about a specific syndrome which occurs during vincristine chemotherapy where NMN goes too high and causes neuronal damage.

In the paper they state:

 

Quote

Perhaps someone else knows how to calculate this. I'm not sure what the "/10**6 cells" portion means in terms of calculations.After 16 h of vincristine treatment, NMN levels increased from undetectable to 14.5 ± 6.8 pmol/10**6 cells and NAD+ fell to about 40% of control levels

 

But 14.5 - 6.8 pmol is 11.7 pmol and if it were 11.7 pmol/ul then that would (unless I'm calculating wrong) be only 3mg/L !

The number of liters of water in a 70Kg adult human is estimated here (http://www.physiolog..._adult_man.html) as 42.

 

If this were correct (and I'm pretty sure it isn't), then this potentially neurotoxic level of NMN would be achieved at 3*42 or only 126mg of NMN!

 

The authors of the paper state that the problem is seen with vincristine, but they do call out NMN as a potential neurotoxin.

 

Could someone else go through this and come up with how many mg of NMN is equivalent to this pathological level (albiet measured in vitro) mentioned in this study?

 

 

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 11:07 PM

The abstract says:

 

Quote

... Collectively, our data indicate that maintaining NAD+ is not sufficient to protect DRG neurons from vincristine- induced axon degeneration, and elevating NMN, by itself, is not sufficient to cause degeneration. Nonetheless, the combination of FK866 and NAR, which bypasses NMN formation, may provide a therapeutic strategy for neuroprotection.

 

 

They are talking about a specific syndrome which occurs during vincristine chemotherapy where NMN goes too high and causes neuronal damage.

In the paper they state:

 

Quote

After 16 h of vincristine treatment, NMN levels increased from undetectable to 14.5 ± 6.8 pmol/10**6 cells and NAD+ fell to about 40% of control levels

Perhaps someone else knows how to calculate this. I'm not sure what the "/10**6 cells" portion means in terms of calculations.

 

But 14.5 - 6.8 pmol is 11.7 pmol and if it were 11.7 pmol/ul then that would (unless I'm calculating wrong) be only 3mg/L !

The number of liters of water in a 70Kg adult human is estimated here (http://www.physiolog..._adult_man.html) as 42.

 

If this were correct (and I'm pretty sure it isn't), then this potentially neurotoxic level of NMN would be achieved at 3*42 or only 126mg of NMN!

 

The authors of the paper state that the problem is seen with vincristine, but they do call out NMN as a potential neurotoxin.

 

Could someone else go through this and come up with how many mg of NMN is equivalent to this pathological level (albiet measured in vitro) mentioned in this study?

 

 

 

[smithx]

Good point. The most recent paper does say:
 

However, elevating NMN was not sufficient to cause axon degeneration, as neurons treated with NAR and NMNsyn displayed an elevation in NMN but did not degenerate. It is possible that the augmented level of NAD+in this setting was protective

 

Smithx.  Why are you regurgitating your post from 1 year ago?

 
Memory lapses? That would be worrisome.

[Aak]

My queries are probably better suited to another thread sorry for that

[Elusive]

Hi Lawrence,

I would suggest looking into 

Berberine  & Indole-3-Carbinol.

 

May be you find them useful. 

 

Thanks!

[Elusive]

I also think people who are below age 40, will not experience any drastic feelings of well-being. 

 

What I have seen on various forums and talking with friends who enjoy NMN is that it seems to make older people really young but doesn't do much for younger people.

 

Lawrence... do you take TMG for the Methyl Donor depletion that some people usually experience with NMN supplementation?

 

Thanks!

[labrat70]

Sublingual NMN is my self-experiment for this year, and I think I'm getting a little hair regrowth along my receding hairline (age 48).  A couple of surprising features though are that:

1.  It took about 8 months before anything happened.  Once the new hair stubs appeared though they seem to grow at a normal rate.

2.  It seems to be only in the temple areas and not along my forehead

 

It's hard to photograph in enough detail, but I'll try to document it between now and January.

 

Protocol was:

ABN sublingual NMN 4 x 125mg per day (spread out) + 2x ABN "NAD+ Energizer" per day

4 days on, 3 days off for 8 months

 

No other observable or subjective affects in feel, look, or bloodwork.  My weight was down a smidge but that's due to mild diet changes.

 

I plan to continue until January then decide what to try for 2020.

[NaHanyate]

LawrenceW,

Do you take day(s) off weekly from your NMN regimen? It seems that quite a few people do, and if that’s beneficial, I would like to do that too. I would welcome comments on this from anybody else as well.

[p75213]

Has anybody been following Lawrence's routine for 3 months or more? In particular taking NMN and washing it down with 3 drops of h²o² in a large glass of water (6 to 8 Oz's I think)? If so, have you been able to prevent homeostasis? I know he takes other activators but I'm not too sure what they are.

[p75213]

In our current iteration we are using a 5 compound formulation to activate a total of 9 anti-aging pathways that sustains the NMN activation at its peak anti-inflammation levels.

May I ask what are the 9 anti-aging pathways? Make that 7 as you mentioned mTOR and AMPK.

Edited by p75213, 18 October 2019 - 09:11 AM.

[jroseland]

This thread is HUGE. Since a number of us have used NMN should I create an NMN survey so that we can organize get some statistical data about the effects of NMN? Would you contribute to this...?

 

[LawrenceW]

This thread is HUGE. Since a number of us have used NMN should I create an NMN survey so that we can organize get some statistical data about the effects of NMN? Would you contribute to this...?

 

 

Yes

[bluemoon]

This thread is HUGE. Since a number of us have used NMN should I create an NMN survey so that we can organize get some statistical data about the effects of NMN? Would you contribute to this...?

 

It will be interesting to see what your NMN survey reveals with very few responses at different doses, with pterostilbine / resveratrol or without, etc.

[jroseland]

Great. I've created a NMN biohacker survey here

https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/106948-nmn-biohacker-survey/

Hope everyone contributes their NMN experiences 

It will be interesting to see what your NMN survey reveals with very few responses at different doses, with pterostilbine / resveratrol or without, etc.

 

 

Yes

 

[LawrenceW]

Great. I've created a NMN biohacker survey here

https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/106948-nmn-biohacker-survey/

Hope everyone contributes their NMN experiences 

 

Great start.  Couple of things:

 

On the question how many times per day you limit it to 1, 2 or 3.  I take mine 6 times per day and some of our big guys are 7 or 8 times per day.

 

Do you have any blood test data indicating health improvements thanks to NMN?

1.  BUN
2.  Cardiac risk
3.  Hgb A1C
4.  Total cholesterol
5.  Triglycerides
6.  C-reactive protein
7.  Tumor Necrosis Factor Alpha
8.  Interleukin-6 Plasma

Only allows you to choose one.

 

I would also add "Do you take anything  to deal with homeostasis?"

[p75213]

Great start. Couple of things:

On the question how many times per day you limit it to 1, 2 or 3. I take mine 6 times per day and some of our big guys are 7 or 8 times per day.

Do you have any blood test data indicating health improvements thanks to NMN?

• BUN
• Cardiac risk
• Hgb A1C
• Total cholesterol
• Triglycerides
• C-reactive protein
• Tumor Necrosis Factor Alpha
• Interleukin-6 Plasma

Only allows you to choose one.

I would also add "Do you take anything to deal with homeostasis?"

Homeostasis is the reason I stopped taking c60. When I first started taking it I thought, this is fantastic. But after a few months the effectiveness seemed to diminish. I tried cycling on and off but it never felt the same so I quit.

Since then I've tried shilajit with the same response. Initially a fantastic energetic feeling which wears off after a few months.

It seems if homeostasis is not addressed this is the normal response.

[TheFountain]

After Starting NMN my testosterone measured 950.

 

I am 34, my biological age is 12. 

[Andey]

After Starting NMN my testosterone measured 950.

 

I am 34, my biological age is 12. 

 

 

 Thats quite high testosterone for 12yo.

 

 How did you measure biological age?

[TheFountain]

 Thats quite high testosterone for 12yo.

 

 How did you measure biological age?

 

Well, i'm covered in pimples too. I think there might be a correlation. 

[Andey]

Well, i'm covered in pimples too. I think there might be a correlation. 

 

 ))

 Ohh.. I thought you did some fancy epigenetic dna testing or something. 

 BTW it would be interesting what it would show