672 replies to this topic

[OP2040]

Lawrence,

First of all, congrats.  It is very rare for eyesight to improve, even in young people.  So you seem to be doing something right.

 

As for the chart comparison, if you have the inclination it would definitely be worth it.  A lot can be told from an eye exam.  The problem is that just like a general practitioner doctor, your optometrist probably doesn't know much more than you can know with a google search.  If it were me, I'd ask to possess the charts and look up the interpretations myself.  The other alternative is just to chill out, have a beer/coffee/tea depending on your preferences, and just be happy that your eyesight improved.  It's easy to get burned out on this stuff after a while, and forget that, at least in the short term, we all just want our quality of life to improve.

[HaplogroupW]

 

  Do you guys think that there would be any point in asking him to compare between the oldest and the newest ones? Would there be any visible signs of health or age?

 

One feature that precedes the development of full-on macular degeneration is formation of drusen. If those were present in earlier images and reversed, that would be significant. I know of an internet anecdote of drusen reversing from a different intervention but don't want to go off-topic.

[Phoebus]

amazon has no listing for 'sublingual NMN'

 

where can one buy this? 

 

EDIT: okay found it on alivebynature's websit. GAH! they add stevia to it...why? i hate stevia with a passion, makes me sick. 

 

although I see they do have pure NMN powder. No reason you couldnt take take sublingually. 

Edited by Phoebus, 26 May 2018 - 11:28 PM.

[LawrenceW]

It has been almost 4 weeks since I dropped my 750 mg twice per day dose to a 500 mg (5.25 mg / kg) once per day dose of NMN.  About a week ago I noticed the first sensation of arthritis returning in the knuckles of my right hand.  As that sensation is still present this morning, I have decided to split the difference and increase my dosage to 500 mg twice per day. (10.5 mg / kg per day)

Edited by LawrenceW, 04 June 2018 - 01:51 PM.

[stefan_001]

So with going to 2 x 500mg you are at the same dose as with NR which you said didn't help your sympthoms?

[LawrenceW]

So with going to 2 x 500mg you are at the same dose as with NR which you said didn't help your sympthoms?

 

 

Hello Stefan.

 

Yes, that is correct. I will try this 2 X 500 mg of NMN per day dose for 4 weeks and if it does not clear up the arthritis pain, then I will try 1,250 mg per day.  I know that the 1,500 mg per day works as I was completely pain free while at that dose.

Edited by LawrenceW, 04 June 2018 - 04:24 PM.

[able]

@Lawrence - please let us know any results on that.  I believe the 2 dosage will be better than 1.  

 

I have gone with 6-8 smaller sublingual dosages, instead of 1-2, and find that far better for strength and endurance.   Seems like joint pain/arthritis should be effected the same way imo.

[amw]

Has anyone tried making a transdermal? The MW is less than 500, so it should pass through the skin. Is it hydrophilic or phobic? I'm wondering in phlogel ultra would work. What say you?

[Gingerbread Man]

Not at all. AlivebyNature, pure NMN. And the NR I tested was Elysium basis.

 

  To be fair, if your experience with NR was from Basis you really didn't test NR. You tested NR and Pterostilbene. I mixed them myself for a while to see the effects. For me NR alone is vastly superior. When I added the Pterostilbene within a month or so my joints and tendons began causing me pain. I removed the Pterostilbene and used just NR, within about a week the pains started going away.

 

  I do think your body will use NR and NMN differently (orally) and I wouldn't doubt the body would like a mixture or combination of the two.

[Phoebus]

Has anyone tried making a transdermal? The MW is less than 500, so it should pass through the skin. Is it hydrophilic or phobic? I'm wondering in phlogel ultra would work. What say you?

 

 

get the ABN pure NMN, add dmso, boom, now you have transdermal 

 

i would not do that with any other product, only the pure powder 

 

its currently on back order 

Edited by Phoebus, 06 June 2018 - 01:18 PM.

[LawrenceW]

Day 8 of the 500mg twice per day dose of NMN and the arthritis pain and stiffness in my knuckles is almost gone.  I will continue with this dose to see if it clears up completely.

[TMNMK]

Has anyone tried making a transdermal? The MW is less than 500, so it should pass through the skin. Is it hydrophilic or phobic? I'm wondering in phlogel ultra would work. What say you?

 

high density microneedle arrays might be fun to try: http://drugdelivery....z ADDR 2004.pdf

 

I believe that these can presently be bought, but don't know where. Might be expensive. They are working on ones that dissolve as well.

[Phoebus]

Day 8 of the 500mg twice per day dose of NMN and the arthritis pain and stiffness in my knuckles is almost gone.  I will continue with this dose to see if it clears up completely.

 

 

so your personal experience has been that NMN is superior to NR? 

[LawrenceW]

Phoebus.

 

I tried 500mg twice per day of NR for 3 months and my personal preference is NMN until something better comes along.

[LawrenceW]

Day 8 of the 500mg twice per day dose of NMN and the arthritis pain and stiffness in my knuckles is almost gone.  I will continue with this dose to see if it clears up completely.

 

Day 21 of the 500mg twice per day dose of NMN and I am pleased to report that the arthritic pain and stiffness in my knuckles has been gone since mid last week.  I will continue with this dose for another 2 months and get my blood test at the end of August. I weigh 95KG, so this dose is 10.5 mg/kg or 4.75 mg/lb per day for you folks that would like to customize your dose to your own body weight.. 

Edited by LawrenceW, 25 June 2018 - 02:46 PM.

[able]

Good to hear Lawrence - I've noticed similar with my knee pain totally gone.

 

It is so nice to go up and down stairs now without wincing and hold the handrail.

 

It was bothering me more and more the past few years, even though I was taking NR and NMN 500 to 1,000 mg a day.

 

I've been taking it sublingual - 250 mg, 4-6  times a day now for 6-8 weeks now.  Noticed the knee pain getting less and disappearing about 3 weeks ago. 

 

Have you noticed any improvement in Blood pressure?

 

About a month ago, I was able to stop the 10 mg of amlodapine I was taking and so far is still good at 120/70.

[Phoebus]

Good to hear Lawrence - I've noticed similar with my knee pain totally gone.

 

It is so nice to go up and down stairs now without wincing and hold the handrail.

 

It was bothering me more and more the past few years, even though I was taking NR and NMN 500 to 1,000 mg a day.

 

I've been taking it sublingual - 250 mg, 4-6  times a day now for 6-8 weeks now.  Noticed the knee pain getting less and disappearing about 3 weeks ago. 

 

Have you noticed any improvement in Blood pressure?

 

About a month ago, I was able to stop the 10 mg of amlodapine I was taking and so far is still good at 120/70.

 

 

so you are taking only NMN now? 

 

or both NR and NMN still? 

[able]

so you are taking only NMN now? 

 

or both NR and NMN still? 

 

 

I ran out of the rev genetics NR powder a few months ago.  

 

Even though it tastes nasty due to the chloride, I would probably still be taking both just to hedge my bets, but for now am just using nmn, until someone comes out with an NR powder.

[LawrenceW]

For about the past month I have noticed that I need my reading glasses less and less. I first started needing them 15 years ago when I turned 45.  I am happy to report that I can now read the Longecity.org forum on my phone without reading glasses and without having to blow up the font size. This is after almost 10 months of continuous NMN.

[bluemoon]

LawrenceW and able, 

 

After you take 500 mg of NMN twice a day for a while, have you considered taking only 500 mg of NMN for 8 to 12 weeks to see how blood test results

compare with 1000 mg a day? After all, isn't NMN likely to be similar to NR where NAD+ levels are boosted to around 100% for a month but then come down to 55% or possibly lower?

 

 

[able]

LawrenceW and able, 

 

After you take 500 mg of NMN twice a day for a while, have you considered taking only 500 mg of NMN for 8 to 12 weeks to see how blood test results

compare with 1000 mg a day? After all, isn't NMN likely to be similar to NR where NAD+ levels are boosted to around 100% for a month but then come down to 55% or possibly lower?

 

 

My guess is that NMN CAPSULES would be very similar to NR, and have a maximum effective dosage of around 1,000 mg per day, as you say.

 

That is for oral delivered capsules, that are subject to the GI tract and liver, which seems to have an upper limit.

 

However, I am taking it sublingual (as I believe Lawrence is now also).

 

My understanding is, a significant portion of each dose  is delivered direct to the bloodstream, where it can be utiliized by tissues other than the Liver.

 

It would be a total shot in the dark to suggest how much of that NMN in the bloodstream gets used elsewhere, before the liver filters it out.

 

 If it is 10%, I think that might imply the hypothetical useful dose might be 1,100.  

 

If you can utilize 50% of the NMN that goes direct to bloodstream, you might increase the maximum useful dosage to 1,500.

 

But that is just looking at the maximum dosage that is useful for the liver.

 

I want to constantly provide my bloodstream with the maximum amount  of NMN it can utilize. Since there is no idea what that is, I am likely dumping in more than needed.

 

One last little clue I use on dosage - The NAD+ clinics use 500-700 mg of NAD+ in a drip over 8-10 hours.    I would imagine they are using that dosage based on some experience.  Some of the research on sublingual absorption show other products achieve around 30% absorption.  IF NMN is similar, that would imply a 1,500 to 2,100 mg to match the dosage they are using for NAD+ IV.   I don't know if NAD+ and NMN would require similar dosages - just throwing that out.

 

Just my 2c worth of theory.  But I do notice the benefits from more frequent dosages and am too selfish to drop back down to lower amounts/frequency for science sake

Edited by able, 18 July 2018 - 07:09 PM.

[bluemoon]

 

Just my 2c worth of theory.  But I do notice the benefits from more frequent dosages and am too selfish to drop back down to lower amounts/frequency for science sake

 

But if there was a change, you'd likely feel different in a week or two. I didn't say that 1000 mg of NR was the likely effective maximum dose but just 500 mg based on the Elysium study: 500 mg shoots NAD+ levels 90% higher but then drops to 55% higher after 8 weeks. 1000 mg of NR brings NAD+ levels even higher but those dropped to 60% after 6 weeks.

 

From what I can tell, LawrenceW's blood work was about the same with 1,000 mg of NMN a day as 3,400 mg a day that he took for awhile, or am I getting that wrong? 

[LawrenceW]

From what I can tell, LawrenceW's blood work was about the same with 1,000 mg of NMN a day as 3,400 mg a day that he took for awhile, or am I getting that wrong? 

 

Hello Bluemoon.

 

You almost have it right.  My last blood work was after 3 months of 750mg twice per day.  Those results were almost identical to the previous 1,600mg twice per day. After the 750mg blood test I have been experimenting with different lower doses and methods of administration. I am currently on 500mg twice per day oral tablet. If I stay on this for 3 months, then I will go back in for my next blood work.

 

 

Edited by LawrenceW, 18 July 2018 - 09:37 PM.

[able]

I agree the scant evidence hints that 500 mg might provide the same, or nearly the same, benefit as 1000 mg.  On average. 

 

Some people might benefit from higher dosage.  

 

I think it was the Trammell theses, and something soon after, that hinted anything above 1,000 mg is likely ending up as elevated NAM in the urine.  I have not seen anything that shows more benefit from dosages of NR higher than 1,000 mg per day.

 

I noticed that Dr Sinclair used to say he takes 500 mg NMN per day, and now says he is taking 750 Mg per day.

 

 

[able]

Hello Bluemoon.

 

You almost have it right.  My last blood work was after 3 months of 750mg twice per day.  Those results were almost identical to the previous 1,600mg twice per day. After the 750mg blood test I have been experimenting with different lower doses and methods of administration. I am currently on 500mg twice per day oral tablet. If I stay on this for 3 months, then I will go back in for my next blood work.

 

Lawrence - do you mean 500 Mg oral CAPSULE?

 

or 500 Mg sublingual tablet?

[LawrenceW]

Able.

 

I went as low as the 500mg per day and felt the arthritis coming back into my knuckles fairly quickly.  The 500mg twice per day dose feels as good as the 750 mg twice per day dose, but I will know for sure after I get my blood work done at the end of August.  For me, at 205 lbs, 500 mg per day of NMN was too low.

[able]

Lawrence,

 

You said "tablets".  

 

The only tablets I know of are the sublingual tablets.

 

Did you mean Sublingual tablets?

 

Or, did you really mean "Capsules" that are swallowed?

 

Edited by able, 18 July 2018 - 09:48 PM.

[LawrenceW]

Lawrence - do you mean 500 Mg oral CAPSULE?

 

or 500 Mg sublingual tablet?

 

Hello Able.

 

We press our own tablets. We take these orally. We also press our own sublingual tablets.

 

Please see the attached file for my dosing log. 

Attached Files

•  LW dosing log.docx   15.99KB   40 downloads

[warner]

We press our own tablets. We take these orally. We also press our own sublingual tablets.

Please see the attached file for my dosing log. 

Looking at your log, I guess another obvious dosing test to do would be 500 mg/d as 4 x 125 mg sublingual tablets taken across the day (such as waking, lunch, dinner, evening - about 4-5 hours apart).  That would be a pretty simple routine for others to follow, and we have a ready source of such 125 mg NMN tablets from ABN.

[able]

Hello Able.

 

We press our own tablets. We take these orally. We also press our own sublingual tablets.

 

Please see the attached file for my dosing log. 

 

Nice.  

 

Why would you take oral tablets if you can take sublingual instead?  

 

I can't see how there would be any benefit from subjecting them to GI tract if you can avoid it.