34 replies to this topic

[paul]

When I first started taking nootropics, the racetams in particular I thought my life had been change by them, I felt that I had become a new, better more intelligent person, I would engage myself in as many thing as possible and with these added abilities had the confidence to do anything. Sadly this feeling only lasted about four months before I began to doubt them. With Life Mirrage posting such positive reports I feel I may have been subjected to a placebo effect. True I had added confidence and therefore applied myself more but now think that this was only brought about by the belief that I had changed into a superior person. After this honeymoon period ended, despite continuing my nootropic regime I have felt lower than any other period in my life .Have never been depressed before but over the last four months have been very down and doubted myself constantly. My exam results this year have been no better than the last. I now believe that the nootropic sensations I had are due to me reading to many positive reports on this website and deluding myself that these actually work. LM always claimed that after a period of time you would no longer notice your added intelligence because you would be used to it, however I believe this is complete ballshit! Is there really any one on this forum that have used the drugs longer than 8 months (unsponsored by a drugs company) who still believe in these drugs, even Da sense is now only taking only deprenyl.
I have been taking modafinil for only 10 days but have found the effects astonishing compared to other nootropics. The increased awakness means you’re more in the mood to do things and exert yourself to your full potential. It seems that you will only learn something if you push yourself to do it and while on this stuff your boundaries seem endless. I find that I am picking up on things which i would normally miss, e.g. when I am watching a film just before bed I am concentrating on what is being said and my recall the next morning from it is excellent. On a normal occasion I would be feeling sleepy and would take in little of what is being said. When you have felt the high that i did to begin with and then it is no longer there then naturally you want it back. I have studied pharmacy at university for three years now and have spent a considerable amount of time looking at clinical trial regarding these drugs and can only see evidence backing modafinil and ampakines. I am slightly worried that the effects I am feeling are due to a placebo effect again but would rather take something that has undergone the vigorous trials that it takes to get a drug onto the NHS market than go by peoples subjected experiences. I have only heard about these diminished verbal abilities from people on this site, and although worried about them am going to give this drug a go. If there is anyone that has taken modafinil for an extended period of time please share your experiences as I am scared about its long term effects.
Sorry to be all doom and gloom but I do believe that for people interested in improving their intellect hope is on the horizon and it will come from ampakines. Type it into google and you will see what I mean. Cortex have nearly completed phase two trials and the results have only been positive.

[jackinbox]

I'm wondering why it's taking so long to get ampakines on the market. The placebo effect is something we all are subject to. Meanwhile, I got some results that goes definetely beyond the placebo effect. The only nootropics that I'm 100% sure to have a effect on me is Piracetam. Sometimes, I "forgot" that I took it an hour before and I suprise my self talking fluently like I never do. Since I got clear results from one so-called nootropics, it brought me to think that others compound may have an effect, even if they are not well studied. I'm thinking of doing a blind study of the nootropics on my self. I have to find a way to not be able to know if I take the placebo or the real thing but to know it later.

[xanadu]

da sense is right, that stuff is apparently a stimulant. It may have a different structure than amphetamines but I'll bet you it has some of the same effects long term. That great feeling you had in the honeymoon period has to be paid back, with interest. Stick to a healthy diet, take vitamins and build your energy back up.

[benson123]

I've heard that Modafinil is hepatoxic.

[~ prometheus ~]

they say that there's no such thing as a free lunch.
if any drug can prove this adage wrong, my money would be on modafinil.

[johnmk]

I've heard that Modafinil is hepatoxic.

It isn't.

[xanadu]

they say that there's no such thing as a free lunch.
if any drug can prove this adage wrong, my money would be on modafinil.

You'd lose your money, most likely. Piracetam seems to have all positives and no negatives, what's wrong with that? Same for sensible vitamin consumption and the right minerals and supplements. They make you healthier and have no downside. Or did you mean free as a give away? With stimulants, there is always a downside.

[patch]

I first became interested in nootropics after reading the hype about modafinil. It looked like the miracle I've been waiting for so I jumped right in. First I tried Focus Formula, then Neurogenex. Both were mixtures of various things--vinpocetine, huperzine-A, ginkgo, DMAE etc. One of them made me significantly dumber when I took it, but the other was interesting. It seemed to make me more creative--it did something, I'm not sure what though. It did not improve my performance at math or reading or puzzles such as su doku. After a week or so all effects seemed to wear off.
I read the book Smart Drugs, and ordered some Piracetam and Aniracetam. I took the piracetam (with choline citrate) for a couple days and it didn’t seem to do anything at all. Next I took aniracetam for about a week. I was a little bit wired, and was more sociable and was definitely sharper mentally. However, I think this improvement can be attributed to this drug’s stimulant effect. In the past I’ve taken Adderall and Ritalin and they had similar effects (but much stronger). Note that any intelligence-boosting effects were inconsistent and short-lived, and over time these drugs have the opposite effect. I expect aniracetam is the same way.
I know that I didn’t give piracetam a fair trial, since I only took it for a couple days and the benefits are supposed to be cumulative. This is partly because I’m worried about the depressant effect of choline (which I find very noticeable), but also because I just don’t trust the stuff. Even if it actually works (a big if), how do we know it doesn’t do the opposite in the long-run, like amphetamines and their effect on the dopamine system? One of the boldest claims about piracetam, that it causes a permanent increase in intelligence, is pretty scary if you think about it. It changes your brain permanently? What if it’s doing damage?
I also started taking modafinil a couple weeks ago, and am also very happy with it. I only take 100 mg a day but it works. It wakes you up and mildly stimulates your brain. I’ve been much more motivated and less error-prone at work. I’ve found that I read faster with it (through improved concentration) and am more curious and energetic, and therefore my problem solving is better. I agree 100% about stimulants being a short-term gain. Modafinil seems to be different since it's so mild, but still I don’t plan on taking it continuously for any stretch of time.

[xanadu]

Patch, you sound about 19. Hopping from one thing to another isn't going to work. You tried pir for a couple days and gave it up. You tried a mixture of things and gave it up. Now you are on modafinil and love it. That is not a nootropic nor a smart drug, it's a stimulant like amphetamines. You are headed for a crash. I could say eat right and take vitamins but I would be wasting my breath. You'll see in time.

"I don’t plan on taking it continuously for any stretch of time."

They never plan on it, it just happens.

[paul]

It may well be a stimulant but it is not like amphetamines. I do feel the need to be cautious with this drug because it may have potential for addiction but if you are confident you do not have an addictive mentality think you will be ok. Da sense, you talk about this crashing and burning but are you basing this on purely the fact that it is a stimulant? It is true that this would happen with an amphetamine but this novel drug seems to be in a class of its own. Coffee gives you a boost without many later side effects so why is it not possible for this to do the same? It seems only to have effects in certain regions of the brain, with no peripheral action so do you think that it could be possible in time to be safer than caffeine? The thing is we don't know since the mechanism of action is not fully understood. All we can go on is:
1. Peoples experiences - looking on remedy finder this drug is rated pretty well. There are people who have been taking it for 5 years for chronic fatigue and report it to be a life saver. Surely if these people who could be described to be already "burned out" are managing ok on it then that is very positive. Looking on other forums eg avant there are also positive reports. The media are also quite hyped up about it because of the amount of people in the city who are taking it and the amount of money the company cephalon are making from its sales for of label uses. There is no interest whatsoever in the nootropics, why is this? Possibly because this is the only lifestyle drug which is showing positive efficacy and at the same time presenting few side effects.
2. clinical trials - On this forum you will be directed to numerous clinical trials showing the effectiveness of the nootropics. However there is a difference between the these small non government based trials and the ones that it takes to get a drug like modafinil onto the European and American medicine market to be legally prescribed by doctors. The difference is that these are vigorously controlled, take about 5 years to conduct and involves thousands of people. The main side effects found were nausea, headaches and constipation.
You are taking a risk taking it long term since it has only been around for abut 7 years. However Adrafanil a similar compound longer and main side effect liver disturbances and if there were any reports of long term brain damage we prob would of heard of them. I think that for the positives it presents as a drug I am prepared to take a risk with long term use but I encourage anyone with any experience of side effects, positive effects or long term use to write a comment To help people like me weigh out the benefits of this drug with possible negatives.
Also Da sense, bought some deprenyl at the same time, but not used it as yet, you still experiencing positives? How come you are fine taking this but seem very catious with modafinil, surely increasing your dopamine levels at an age where they should be normal could turn out to be more dangerous? Increased dopamine levels are found in people with schizophrenia but yet it has been licensed for depression very recently. Myself i am less inclined to try this since one of its metabolites is in fact AMPHETAMINE and the amount of reports ive heard of people feeling confused and as if their memory has almost been wiped after just a few days use is overwhelming.

[paul]

Da Sense, has a dose of 100mg ever done anything for you do you think you developed a tolerance? Might start on a low 2.5mg dose of deprenyl and see how it goes but at the mo im sticking with modafinil, fingers crossed I dont develop a tolerance but if I do will post again. I do realise that there is a possibility of getting a low but hope I will be able to see it coming in time. At the moment dont want to miss out on taking something that I feel could help me achieve a lot more than I otherwise could.

[guyledouche]

How in the world are all you guys getting Modafinil? I thought you had to have a prescription in order to get that stuff.

Edited by guyledouche, 05 April 2006 - 11:43 PM.

[patch]

Da sense, 600 mg is a huge dose. I got a prescription for 200 mg a day (for ADD) and I take 100 mg in the morning and it works over the next 12 hours or so. If I take the other 100 mg it keeps me up half the night.
No doubt modafinil is a stimulant. Supposedly it works through the glutamate system rather than the dopamine system but I’m not so sure. It would be interesting to see what reaction people with damaged dopamine systems (due to amphetamine etc.) have to modafinil.
According to www.selegiline.com, deprenyl is “an irreversible and (relatively) selective MAO-B inhibitor”. MAO-B breaks down dopamine, so less MAO-B means more dopamine. That’s why it’s used for Parkinson’s. But if you permanently increase the amount of dopamine in your brain, then your brain will get used to it (receptor downgradation). So deprenyl would have the same downside as stimulants, wouldn’t it?

[zoolander]

FYI.


Modafinil monograph

Edited by zoolander, 05 April 2006 - 07:16 AM.

[london710]

good article:

http://www.newscient.../mg18925391.300

Get ready for 24-hour living

* 18 February 2006
* Graham Lawton
* Magazine issue 2539

"A new wave of drugs will make it a breeze to go days without sleep, and give you a good night's shut-eye in two hours - are you ready for 24-hour living?

SO MUCH to do, so little time. Between a hectic work schedule and a thriving social life, Yves (not his real name), a 31- year-old software developer from Seattle, often doesn't have time for a full night's sleep. So he swallows something to make sure he doesn't need one. "If I take a dose just before I go to bed, I can wake up after 4 or 5 hours and feel refreshed," he says. "The alarm goes off and I'm like, let's go!"

Yves is talking about modafinil, a stimulant that since its launch seven years ago has acquired a near-mythical reputation for wiring you awake without the jitters, euphoria and eventual crash that come after caffeine or amphetamines. Yves has been popping modafinil on and off for the past three years and says it is "tremendously useful". "I find I can be very productive at work," he says. "I'm ..."





-you might need to pick up a copy of the mag for full article. good article, goes on to talk about new drugs in the pipeline for superior sleep cycles, if i remember correct.

kas

[paul]

Thats the thing, with this drug you can actually feel it working, you feel mentally more stimulated, you can't really say the same for the nootropics. I have seen other reports like this where the user has felt no side effect or tollerance. If this drug really does turn out to safe long term just imagine how much more productive you could be in your life, you would have the edge over everyone!

[fntms]

I use modafinil, but only because it enables me not to fall asleep during my work day if I haven't slept enough the previous night. I get no useful mental stimulation out of it, no increase in drive or mood (or barely), at 50mg x 2 or x 3 as needed.
It's very useful that way I find...

[guyledouche]

guyledouche
You do. Or you can get it airsealed.com without prescription. But I strongly advise you talk to your doctor before taking it. Airsealed.com is primarily a place to get it cheaper.

Thanx for the info da_sense. I dont have a doctor(cant afford one). Modafinil is primarily safe right? If I get some Im not gonna take it every single day. Just once a week, maybe twice.

[hormesis]

Anyone have any experience with
pharm-marketing.com

They're offering Modafinil powder at
$1200/kg.

http://www.pharma-or...973d6836425dc27
Compared to $6599/kg



Could be a good deal. Thoughts?
Anyone know of a better source?

7. Modafinil (Provigil)
Chemical Name: 2-[(diphenylmethyl)sulfinyl]acetamide
CAS NO.: [68693-11-8]
Structural Formula:

Molecular Formula: C15H15NO2S
Molecular Weight: 273.36
Appearance: White to off-white crystalline solid
Solubility: practically insoluble inwater and cyclohexane. It is sparingly to slightly soluble in methanol and acetone
Melting point:164-166 DEG C.
Residue on ignition: 0.2% max
Loss on drying: 0.5% max
Assay: 98.5% min
Heavy metal: 20 ppm max
Uses: It is a wakefulness-promoting agent for oral administration
Packing: Aluminium or iron tin lined with plastic bag.

[dangerousdave]

Modafinil IS stimulant. I'm basing it on my own experience as well. I've been "playing" with powder for the last few days. First time I exactly mesured it. About 200mg doesn't do more than 200mg caffeine for me, maybe even less. 400mg keep me altert, some increased heart beat. Over 600 mg puts me in GREAT mood. I mean really great, but it doesn't feel that right or happy. Not like amphetamines or MDMA. Over 500-600mg and I can't sleep that night regardless if i took it in the morning or afternoon.
At ANY doses, even 200mg if taken in morning i start to feel some anxiety in the afternoon. At 200mg it's not much. At larger doses (needed to keep me very alert) i get VERY anxius by afternoon. 2 months ago I had to take benzos wich I never take to get rid of the almost panic attack state caused by modafinil.
That's why I think what goes up must come down. Maybe others experiences are different, but this is me. I also tried tablets, same thing.

Could you let me know what brand your using...?

I'm pretty sure those amounts are considered a stupidly heavy dose from what I've read. BUT what you said sounds very similar to my (limited) experience so far -- except for the anxiety bit. I've been using Modalert, which I've read in many places is way inferior to other brands...

[doug123]

The authors of that impressive Neva Press article about Adrafinil (the "mother" molecule for the Vig) termed Adrafinil a nootropic (for those of us "unscientific" folk); so it depends what your definition of nootropic is. A nootropic drug, in my "medical" definition would seem to define a drug that would positively affect cognition or memory.



I have taken US "Provigil", "Mexican "Modiodal" (which is actually made in the USA, believe it or not!), and Indian "Modalert" or "Modafil." I have noticed no difference in the effects from any of these brands. And I have been taking modafinil or adrafinil for about four years now. I depend on it to work such that if it did not I could easily tell -- I get all pumped up on 300mg modafinil before I go to the gym -- and after a two and a half hour work out, I still have energy -- but I can go right to bed a couple hours later.

I guess it could be placebo effect, but it would have to be a darn powerful sugar pill to have that much kick. Also, days of a big exam, I often awaken SUPER early -- like 3 am sometimes if it's a big test -- and you bet I would pass right out without 250mg modafinil. But that's just me. I sound like I'm addicted to the stuff, eh? Well I'm a competitive person when it comes to school and workout -- so anything that can give me an "edge" without a barrage of negative side effects, I am into it. And modafinil has been used in clinical studies as far back as the early 1980's -- when it was tested as a "vigilance agent" in elderly folks. Thus far there have been scant reports of any significant side effects of this novel drug. So I think it's pretty safe.

I would not be at adverted to sending a sample of Sun's modafinil to Integrated Biomolecule for an assay. I think the cost would be about $250 for the active in one pill. Anyone want to pitch in?

[roberts_cole]

Hi everyone :D I would like to preface my comments by stating that I am a physician who was experiment with "nootropics" for approximately 8 years on and off. I have tried nootropics including piracetam, aniracetam, deprenyl, as well as a few others. With both pracetam and aniracetam, I subjectively felt that it may have some positive 'noootropic' effects including improvements in the flexibility and creativity of my thinking. However, both of these seemed to decrease my mental energy during study sessions in medical school. I would find I would literaly 'hit the wall' after a set number of hours and would no longer be able to focus/study without sleep. In fact, during periods of reduced sleep, I found that both of these nootropics actually seemed to have negative effects. In short, I only found these nootropics to use at times in which I was writing medical publications. Several of my medline publicatios were written while taking these nootropics. [however this is a pseudonym]

Deprenyl--in short, did absolutely nothing positive for me and seemed to cause me to have a dysphoric mood experience. Your experiences with this may vary, however...

***My most positive experience with a nootropic, for use as a study aid, was without question centrophenoxine. I found that it dramatically improved my concentration and recall, but little else. I did not experience any improvements in my ability to think, in fact, to some extent it seemed to reduce the flexibility of my thinking, much like I would expect something like ritalin would do as well. However, with the use of centrophenoxine, I was able to elevate my grades to the top 10% of my class from the top 30%. IMO, a program such as medical school mostly taxes one's memory ability as opposed to any other mental faculties.

Lately, I have been experimenting with Modafinil. I would advise anyone else who does this to have baseline liver function tests taken as well as routine monitoring of their LFTs. It is true that adrafinil is more hepatotoxic, but it is better to be safe than sorry... Though I have only used this drug for a few days, I can report that it certainly improves wakefullness during periods of reduced sleep. As well, it seems to dramatically improve my ability to concentrate. I suspect these are the only benefits that this drug has to offer. I also will note, that at doses of 200mg I started to feel somewhat more anxious.

Final note, several years ago I tried Hydergine. I recall it having a mild stimulant effect with a definite improvement in concentration. However, my overall experience with this drug was negative. I recall experiencing somewhat of an up and down flux in my energy reflecting changes in my blood levels. I suspect it has a short half life, but am not certain of this. I would not advise using this drug as my overall opinion is that it is not very good.


warm regards,

[ikaros]

I did not experience any improvements in my ability to think, in fact, to some extent it seemed to reduce the flexibility of my thinking, much like I would expect something like ritalin would do as well.

Hello. It's good to hear healthy criticism on nootropics as it helps to discriminate between useful and nonuseful. It's interesting you mention that ritalin would decrease mental flexibility, because this is what I've tried to pinpoint for some time why it seems to have a negative effect on my cognition apart from increasing concentration and mental energy. I feel it abolishes my creativity extensively, making me blind to see more abstract connections between things. Any particular idea why it does that?

[Ghostrider]

My most positive experience with a nootropic, for use as a study aid, was without question centrophenoxine.  I found that it dramatically improved my concentration and recall, but little else.  I did not experience any improvements in my ability to think, in fact, to some extent it seemed to reduce the flexibility of my thinking, much like I would expect something like ritalin would do as well.  However, with the use of centrophenoxine, I was able to elevate my grades to the top 10% of my class from the top 30%.  IMO, a program such as medical school mostly taxes one's memory ability as opposed to any other mental faculties. 

Interesting notes. I would have to say Centro and pyritinol might have been the only nootropic that I have tried where I *might* have felt something beyond placebo. I ordered both at the same time and tried 250 mg Centro + 400 mg Pyritinol and it seemed like my concentration improved. However, I have repeated the experiment and tried each individually with only mixed results. Nothing bad, but just was not sure if the substances were doing anything. Modafinil (Modvigil) was good for about the first three or four hours. I felt really alert and did not notice mental fatigue after studying for over an hour. However, around hours 5-6, I felt this feeling of perpetual brain fart -- similar to what I felt when I experimented with Adrafinil for the first time. By the way, how did you get modafinil? Did you write yourself a prescription? This may seem very naive, but can doctors do that?