10 replies to this topic

[Forever21]

Saw it on Reddit

 

https://www.reddit.c..._taking_herbal/

 

 

Just wanted to bring this up as I have never seen this discussed - ALWAYS google "(insert herb here) liver enzyme"/"(insert herb here) CYP). A ton of herbs have an effect (on their own not harmful) on various enzymes in the liver, and some of these enzymes are involved in the metabolism of popular drugs like caffeine, alcohol, or amphetamine derivatives.

The result of this, is that some herbal supplements may increase OR decrease the half life of caffeine and other drugs. Particularly when it comes to increasing you should be aware because it can result in caffeine affecting your sleep quality or increase side-effects such as feeling hyperstimulated throughout the day, etc.

Even more potentially risky, inhibiting certain liver enzymes might increase the toxic or carcinogenic potential of some substances due to prolonging or completely inhibiting the metabolism of certain toxic by-products. For this reason it is not a good idea to take piles of supplements all affecting different enzymes - so this might mean not having 4+ different herbs on the go at the same time, at least not without good research into this side of things.

Food for thought! Might be wise to form a sidebar list with popular herbal supplements cross referenced against drug-enzymes affected.

 

[Galaxyshock]

Sounds bullshit, the net effect on the enzymes even with a lot of herbs is probably weak. It's not the herb's fault if you damage yourself with substances like alcohol and amphetamines. I would only worry about mixing St. John's Wort with prescription drugs as there's some actual interaction.

[capob]

It is true that taking multiple herbs is risky (just like taking too much of one (like EGCG) can become detrimental), and, moreover, it is particularly risky because studies are geared towards individual herbs, and, thusly, you likely won't find any study cautioning against your particular concoction, and you'll have to determine the potential compounding effects yourself.  Best to do general blood testing before and after.

[chris85]

It seems many herbs increase detoxification of the body by stimulating liver function, this includes St. John's wort, but extends to adaptogenic herbs like ginseng and others. I haven't heard so much about it being the other way round i.e. herbs causing decreased liver detoxification, but it probably does happen somewhere.

 

The reason there is so much talk around St. John's worts interaction, I think, is not that it is unusually dangerous in terms of interactions, but is the best studied herb. Therefore, more interactions are actually known, opposed to unknown.

Edited by chris85, 26 March 2018 - 11:27 AM.

[Nate-2004]

This is a gross overgeneralization. Almost everything you eat or drink other than water competes for enzymes in one way or another, this is a little overblown and in some cases, the bioavailability of extracts is improved through a competitive inhibition of these enzymes. It's probably a good idea not to take them all the time or every day though.

 

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 26 March 2018 - 01:50 PM.

[chris85]

It's not just an overgeneralisation, I am not sure it is based on any science. There are cases where herbs increase the removal of alcohol and pharma drugs, but the extent to which this is a bad thing for people who don't need drugs at least, is not clear. It may even improve health generally for all we know. A few examples are here;

 

Moore, Linda B., et al. "St. John's wort induces hepatic drug metabolism through activation of the pregnane X receptor." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 97.13 (2000): 7500-7502.

 

Lee, F. C., et al. "Effects of Panax ginseng on blood alcohol clearance in man." Clinical and Experimental Pharmacology and Physiology 14.6 (1987): 543-546.

 

 

Edited by chris85, 26 March 2018 - 03:27 PM.

[pamojja]

 

For this reason it is not a good idea to take piles of supplements all affecting different enzymes - so this might mean not having 4+ different herbs on the go at the same time,

 

Following the principle of always starting low and increasing gradually for avoiding not only adverse reactions, but always possible allergic reactions to new supplements (if even only to particular binder/fillers), I haven't encountered even one with botanicals since starting 9 years ago.

 

By gradually increasing to about 80 distinct botanical extracts in the 100mg to 2200mg range, additional to 100 in the 10mg to 100mg range per day in average for 9 years. Additional to all essential nutrients (vitamins, minerals, amino and fatty acids).

 

However, I immediately do get adverse-effects if I add a pharmaceutical to this mix. For example already 1 baby aspirin gave me bloody stool, and metformin initially caused nausea and diarrhea.

 

My N-1 of course doesn't says anything definitive and shouldn't be used for generalizations. Because we all come with different preconditions, which can very well make one react more readily to botanicals, and contrary to me have no adverse reaction to pharmaceuticals at all.

 

Such a high number of distinct botanicals came about, because I started to use Ayurvedic combination products (beside those available in the west), especially during my yearly 6-week vacations in Southern-India and after with what I've brought home.

 

Interestingly every year in India all my liver enzymes and kidney function marker have always been best. While inflammation (CRP and ESR) always increase. Also didn't have any sickness-leave since 9-years, while on vacations infections (ear, urinary) and cold and fevers (thypoid) abound.

 

 Is it true that taking multiple herbal supplements = risky, toxic, pro-cancer

 

Being diagnosed with a mercilessly progressing disease made me of course less risks-avoiding to proceed to such an extreme protocol, which I don't recommend anyone unless very well self-educated and aware of always possible risks. My health-story and stack here: http://www.longecity...nal-remissions/

Edited by pamojja, 26 March 2018 - 03:46 PM.

[gamesguru]

a lot of this comes down to moderation.  you can have four herbs "in the stack" even if you only take one or two of them on any given day.  gives your liver a rest

 

i find it hard to characterize any individual herb (among the commonly accepted) as carcinogenic.  i'm sure given long enough you could dig up a study or two showing, maybe perhaps, that ginseng induces certain types of, say, brain and thyroid cancer.  but this is all just fringe logic at this point.  utter hogwash.  and i would wager that the increase in risk is insignificant, or barely significant at best.  but sensationalists will run with cancer fears like paranoids run with the "omg no wai facebookz selling ur data 4 mega evil" trends

 

but then there's the case studies where people take one herb but they take it to the extreme.  the lady with lipton green tea and fluorosis or the one with st johns wort and kidney failure.   but then you find out they were drinking two gallons a day, or taking 20 pills a day, or something ridiculous like that and you tell yourself to worry a little less

[Nate-2004]

Also the reason why it's generalizing language is half the stuff people take are not even herbs at all. Cinnamon is a spice, so is Curcumin. Also, what the hell is sulforaphane because glucorophanin is from broccoli, a cruciferous vegetable, and enzymes like myrosinase are certainly not herbs.  Garlic is a spice, glucosamine sulfate is what? Berberine is from a tree, not an herb. L-theanine isn't an herb either, it's an amino acid extracted from tea leaf.  None of these things except sulforaphane affect liver enzymes, while the sulforaphane doesn't inhibit but rather induces several.  Almost nothing I take is herbal in the slightest and I take a lot of stuff.

Edited by Nate-2004, 26 March 2018 - 06:03 PM.

[pamojja]

Also the reason why it's generalizing language is half the stuff people take are not even herbs at all.

 

 

ALWAYS google "(insert herb here) liver enzyme"/"(insert herb here) CYP)

Right away thought (insert herb here) was just a thoughtless simplification, but really meant botanicals. Overall with CYP the first which comes to mind is grapefruit, a fruit and not a herb.

[chris85]

Herb can mean more or less any plant, depending on your definition.

 

2 : a plant or plant part valued for its medicinal, savory, or aromatic qualities. planted parsley, basil, and rosemary in her herb garden.

 

But, there is a different botanical definition, not often used.

 

I wouldn't call a banana a herb though, personally.