2523 replies to this topic

[tolerant]

First of all, I would like to acknowledge that some of my posts in this thread and possibly in the Alzheimer's protocol thread were correctly marked down as off-topic and/or timewasting when one considers the overall way in which LongeCity forums operate and in particular the highly technical and experimental nature of the threads. Although from a purely ethical standpoint, I would possibly come to a different conclusion, but that is, again, off-topic.

 

So I took some time to understand what C60 is and isn't, which basically meant trawling through a massive LongeCity thread on the substance as its use and theoretical underpinnings were evolving, because it's not like there's a neat summary of it available anywhere. In fact, Turnbuckle's protocols and summarised thoughts are probably the best starting point for research by complete and utter laymen such as myself. I was also helped by one very friendly member who corresponded with me on this topic via PM and email. So I hope this post and my future posts will be more law-abiding.
 

My present thinking on this protocol is summarized below—
 
...
 
2. Filling stem cell pools produces a noticeable improvement in youthfulness, but overfilling them produces no further apparent improvement. Old cells don’t die just because new cells are available. With a pseudo-geometric progression of stem cells via fusion/C60 treatment, just a few cycles of the stem cell protocol may be all that is necessary. Three will make a difference (though it might take weeks to see it), and there may be no further improvement after a few dozen.
 
3. Eliminating old cells (and not just senescent cells) allows stem cell replacement and restoration of health. 
 
...

 

You are saying that (1) "filling stem cells", i.e. symmetrical division achieved with fusion and (2) "eliminating old cells" is what produces "improvement and youthfulness" and "restoration of health". Yet scores of reports of "miraculous" results by members of these forums over the past five or so years which were made when these two ideas were yet to be developed, i.e. when C60 was taken on its own without regard to stem cell pools and eliminating old cells. I understand that results are achieved from asymmetrical division because it is only new somatic cells which manifest as results, whether it is hair regrowing, wrinkles disappearing or mood improving. Can you please clarify?

 

...
 
7. The goal is then to increase the apoptosis of somatic cells and to bias their replacement by stem cells from full stem cell pools (#3 above) rather than by somatic cells.
 
And here I’m a bit up in the air. Could one maximize #7 by stimulating stem cells (ie, C60 without fusion) and stimulating apoptosis at the same time?

 
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the goal is to replace lost somatic cells with stem cells? But then why C60 without fusion? And, again, ultimately restoration of health will be achieved by stem cell differentiation, not by proliferation and accrual of stem cells, right?

 

So assuming that I'm just not reading these paragraphs correctly, a further question is: Can it be said that if urgent symptomatic relief is a goal, then it may be a good idea to take C60 without fusion to force proliferation of new somatic cells, and then go back refilling stem cell pools with fusion?

Edited by tolerant, 08 October 2018 - 09:33 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

Good questions.

 

First, the uncontrolled use of C60 does produce some apparently marvelous changes. I experienced that in 2012. But for myself and many who have taken it, the effectiveness fades over a period of time and aging resumes, perhaps even faster than before This is to be expected with asymmetric division as it depletes stem cell pools.

 

Second, pure symmetric division (proliferation) does not replace somatic cells, it just fills the pool. Even with fusion, however,  some stem cell division is likely still asymmetric, and some are used by the body normally, ie, sparingly. The goal after one has a full pool (and we don't actually know if it has a fill line), is to eliminate old somatic cells and replace them with zero age (or at least much younger) somatic cells minted from stem cells. My working hypothesis is that stem cells will more likely replace deleted somatic cells if stem cell pools are full and somatic cell deletion and stem cell differentiation occur at the same time.

 

As I've said before, for urgent relief as with surgery, then C60 sans fusion would seem to be a good idea. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 08 October 2018 - 10:15 AM.

[lost69]

don t know if this is really scientific and proven because i have very little free time to check studies this week but just saw this article about readiofrequency for superficial skin only

 

https://www.fightagi...ency-treatment/

[eigenber]

Is it time for a 'conclusions' section yet regarding the threads surrounding the Turnbuckle protocols on mitochondria/stem cell renewal?

For example, is there a consensus on sequencing?

That is, if one were starting the protocols, what should come first?

Should one do a senolytic treatment first? Clear out defective mitochondria? Or initiate the fission/fusion first? And at what stage should telomerase compounds be used? 

I understand this is all ongoing hypotheses testing, but it would be nice to have a summary or distillation of this thread and the Manipulating Mitochondrial Dynamics thread into a suggested 'prescription', if you can call it that.  

[Turnbuckle]

Is it time for a 'conclusions' section yet regarding the threads surrounding the Turnbuckle protocols on mitochondria/stem cell renewal?

For example, is there a consensus on sequencing?

That is, if one were starting the protocols, what should come first?

Should one do a senolytic treatment first? Clear out defective mitochondria? Or initiate the fission/fusion first? And at what stage should telomerase compounds be used? 

I understand this is all ongoing hypotheses testing, but it would be nice to have a summary or distillation of this thread and the Manipulating Mitochondrial Dynamics thread into a suggested 'prescription', if you can call it that.  

 

 

See this post.

[Graviton]

It's good to know that stearic acid isn't a bad thing long term. The reasons are vague, however. Maybe there's some effect from saturated oils being oxidation resistant, as they suggest, or maybe having more stearic acid biases stem cells a bit more to self-renewal, if you buy the hypothesis of this thread. In any case, their use of multivariate statistics and 3-D plots remind me of my old company. Once corporate management ordered the plants to use this stuff, total confusion ensued.

Do you think having fish oil is as effective as stearic acid for mitochondrial fusion?

 

It is hard to get pure form of stearic acid in U.S.

Edited by Graviton, 10 October 2018 - 04:37 PM.

[tolerant]

Turnbuckle, thanks for your response to my questions. I would like to hear from yourself and others who achieved results using the stem cell protocol enunciated in this thread, were those results conditional on also doing fission from the mito QC protocol?

 

Also, would the stearic acid which I got, which is neither food grade nor pure, i.e. it probably is half palmitic acid, still work for this protocol and the mito QC protocol? And what would be a gentle senolytic protocol? Which part of the senolytic protocol brings on fatigue? Would quercetin and fisetin on their own be gentle and sufficient over the long term? Especially given the recent study on fisetin. I notice that fisetin is part of your fission protocol. I assume that means that one wouldn't take it on fusion days. Is that correct?

 

Can I combine fusion/biogenesis from the mito Q protocol with stem self-renewal with C60 protocol? How would it look like?

 

Thanks. 

Edited by tolerant, 10 October 2018 - 08:29 PM.

[tolerant]

I now see that palmitic acid content in stearic acid products and its effect has been discussed in this post and the posts that follow. Turnbuckle mentioned a study which says that palmitic is not neutral as far as fusion is concerned. The study refers to palmitic acid causing "fragmentation", which I assume is fission. Is that correct? The study that instigated the stearic acid group buy doesn't seem to say that palmitic acid acts in the opposite direction to stearic acid as far as fusion is concerned, but cautions that "C16:0 increases cardiovascular and cancer risk whereas C18:0 decreases both". Edit: I now see that this study and quote have been referred to here and here, though not in relation to fusion/fission. I still wonder whether products such as Duda will overall increase fusion bias since I gather that some people have used it and reported good results.

 

And I would still like to know whether stem cell self-renewal, done once weekly, for example, can be done on the same day as fusion/biogenesis in this mito QC protocol, with 48 washout period for C60. If so, what would be the timing, and which supplements will be retained? I think this may be what eigenber meant four posts above this one, i.e. how can the protocols be put together. 

 

 

Edited by tolerant, 10 October 2018 - 10:34 PM.

[QuestforLife]

 

As I've said before, for urgent relief as with surgery, then C60 sans fusion would seem to be a good idea. 

 

Why not simply cause mito-fission using your other protocol to induce the necessary differentiation, once stem cell pools have been enlarged?

 

https://journals.plo...al.pone.0183358

[Turnbuckle]

Why not simply cause mito-fission using your other protocol to induce the necessary differentiation, once stem cell pools have been enlarged?

 

https://journals.plo...al.pone.0183358

 

And interesting paper that suggests nicotinamide would make a good addition for nudging brain stem cells into neurons, but the differentiation itself will still require C60.

[Kentavr]

Turnbuckle, there is one idea.

 

It is necessary to combine the senolithic and C60 in such a way that their time of action coincides.

 

For example, if the senolithic starts to work after 6 hours, and C60 - after 2 hours, that the use of C60 to produce after 4 hours.

The main thing is to choose a senolithic that does not interfere with the work of the C60.

 

Thus, at the time of apoptosis of the cell, symmetric division will occur.

[motorcitykid]

following what is suggested on turnbuckle post about redlight, yesterday night i added liposomal vit c (4g total), pqq, liposomal gsh and hydroxytyrosole and this morning i feel much much better.

 

BP 10 points down, reaction time 129ms (i could hit 15ms 2 times, i never got RT less than about 189ms) baseline these days was 220ms, HRV/rmssd good they did not change much during these days, energy levels good

 

i don t know if it is normal to feel like this after redlight/IR, like stemcell activation makes you feel bad/fatigue for few days, or if this was ROS and extra antioxidants corrected that.strange C60 and 1g N+R wasn t able to make any difference these days although C60 is antioxidants as well

 

 

IMO, the ultimate LED therapeutic experience is by far the Novothor ( a whole body light pod):   

 

https://mitochondria...nvention-award/

 

A fifteen minute session gives me the energy of a good cup of coffee without the jitters and caffeine crash. Truly remarkable.

 

[RWhigham]

motorcitykid  "IMO, the ultimate LED therapeutic experience is by far the Novothor ( a whole body light pod)"

Novothor specifications:

Number of Diodes:

• Red: 630 nm x 1200
• Red: 660 nm x 1200
• NIR: 850 nm x 1200
• Irradiance: 17 mW/cm2 (average density for the entire surface area)
• Suggested revenue model is $55 per 10-12 min session.

Homebrew alternative: 225 Ultrathin Red Lamp LEDS

• LED Qty: 225 pcs
• Light Panel Size: 11 1/4" L x 11 1/4" W x 1/5" H   = 816 cm2 per panel
• Wavelength: 660 nm
• Power: 16 W  = 19.6 mW/cm2 (average density over surface area)
• Price: $26.99

I have 5 of them (1125 diodes total). I have 3 of them hung on a bathroom door using "Damage-Free Hanging strips"  3M Command Decorating Clips, Clear, 80-Clip (17026CLRVP)  I find a few min exposure (with eyes covered) turning 45 degree at a time though a full 360 degree (8 positions) gives me quite a boost.  I can imagine building a full surround version but I don't have the space, so I just rotate myself.

 

Back on topic:  I have made Turnbuckle's brownies using food grade Kokum Butter, cutting it into 6 large brownies each containing 12 g of stearic acid. They are delicious and seem like a satisfactory solution.  I use the Kroger 16.3 oz Family Size Brownie mix which calls for 2/3 cup of oil. I melt enough Kokum butter in the microwave to make 2/3 cup and put it on my magnetic stirrer, then add the juice from 1/2 a medium size lemon to make it slightly acidic to improve the action of lipase, then add 5 capsules of Lipase Concentrate to break apart the Kokum triglycerides into highly absorbable free fatty acids. The warm Kokum butter turns creamy. I mix in the eggs and 1/4 cup of water that's called for, then add to the mix powder and blend it in. It blends quite easily.

 

Edited by RWhigham, 12 October 2018 - 03:47 AM.

[RWhigham]

Kokum butter brownies are best served cold right out of the refrigerator. Otherwise they are a bit soft and gooey. I am delighted with the way the kokum butter brownies turned out. I believe I finally have nailed the protocol.

 

I previously tried mango butter, but it has a lot more palmitic acid than kokum butter and I was not happy with it. 

 

Edited by RWhigham, 12 October 2018 - 04:09 AM.

[Empiricus]

I suspect it's rather easy to overdo red light.  A machine like Novothor or some of these powerful lamps now on the market may be overkill, particularly if used regularly for too many minutes at a stretch.  

[RWhigham]

I suspect it's rather easy to overdo red light.  A machine like Novothor or some of these powerful lamps now on the market may be overkill, particularly if used regularly for too many minutes at a stretch.  

NovoThor sales literature explains that too little or too much is well known to be ineffective, They recommend 10 min total body exposure twice a week in the NovoThor for rapid healing of tendons and synovial membranes--highly recommended for athletes.

 

We have found that  an 85 yr old with acute lumbar stenosis can walk significantly better when her lumbar spine is exposed for 6 min daily to one of the above red light panels.  The improvement is such that she would not consider trying a shorter or longer exposure.

[thedarkbobo]

Yet another offtopic, but would you or does anyone here use Metformin along all this?

 

Don't want to hijact this thread, it is just one of the more promising and researched substances with benefits.

[Turnbuckle]

 

Turnbuckle, there is one idea.

 

It is necessary to combine the senolithic and C60 in such a way that their time of action coincides.

 

For example, if the senolithic starts to work after 6 hours, and C60 - after 2 hours, that the use of C60 to produce after 4 hours.

The main thing is to choose a senolithic that does not interfere with the work of the C60.

 

Thus, at the time of apoptosis of the cell, symmetric division will occur.

 

 

Yes, timing and potential interference are obvious considerations, though it is not clear that they should be precisely coincident. And in this case we want asymmetric division.

[motorcitykid]

I suspect it's rather easy to overdo red light.  A machine like Novothor or some of these powerful lamps now on the market may be overkill, particularly if used regularly for too many minutes at a stretch.  

 

Regarding the Novothor: I've been doing 12-15 minutes, two/three times weekly for 7 months-never have I felt overkill with this routine. My workouts are stronger, I have more energy and I feel more grounded.

 

Thanks for sharing RWhigham!

 

If we're going to continue discussing LED options we should start another thread.

[RWhigham]

Kokum butter brownies are best served cold right out of the refrigerator. Otherwise they are a bit soft and gooey. I am delighted with the way the kokum butter brownies turned out. I believe I finally have nailed the protocol.

 

I previously tried mango butter, but it has a lot more palmitic acid than kokum butter and I was not happy with it. 

How is this Off Topic?  Goodby Turnbuckle

[lost69]

Regarding the Novothor: I've been doing 12-15 minutes, two/three times weekly for 7 months-never have I felt overkill with this routine. My workouts are stronger, I have more energy and I feel more grounded.

 

Thanks for sharing RWhigham!

 

If we're going to continue discussing LED options we should start another thread.

but is this combo with c60 protocol for stemcell renewal?do you use it without c60 washout?

[motorcitykid]

but is this combo with c60 protocol for stemcell renewal?do you use it without c60 washout?

 

No c60. I dosed c60 when it first rolled out here on Longecity but discontinued sometime after. I didn't experience any of the positives others were reporting (I would classify myself as a non-responder).

 

 I haven''t tried Turnbuckle's protocol, though it looks promising,

 

[orion22]

pls help mest up felt asleep and left the 400ml c60 with c8 oil  2 metters from the window on left side until 7am shod i trow it away or can i keep it no special glass used 

 

[tolerant]

...

 

I'm relocating here from Turnbuckle's Alzheimer's protocol thread after he advised me that my continuously deteriorating cognitive impairment is not likely the result of AD, but could be (along with my continuously deteriorating severe treatment-resistant major depression, anxiety, and other psychiatric symptoms) the result of prolonged use antidepressants. This post from the AD thread and the few below it sum up my situation.

 

...

 

 

NSI-189 is synergistic with the Turnbuckle stem cell protocol

 

In November 2015 I self-experimented with 30 mg NSI-189, 6 days a week for 4 weeks. After a mild headache for the first few days, there were benefits. I was more verbal, more productive at work and experienced noticeably increased skin/touch sensitivity. After about 3 months, those benefits returned to basal levels.

 

Recently I took 40 mg NSI-189 daily for 3 days coincident with 3 mg C60-MCT oil 1x/day and 10 gm stearic acid 2x/day. The effect was much, much stronger than before. Nights were restless and filled with vivid dreams. During the days I felt jittery and edgy, similar I image to drinking 4 or 5 shots of espresso. On day 3 I was lost in my thoughts. On day 5, my sense of smell was unusually acute: I was annoyed to smell a dog park a block away and paint from a construction site 3 blocks away. I was impatient with myself and others. Overall, this was not a pleasant experience. Maybe 20 or 30 mg/day for just 2 days with the Turnbuckle protocol would be a better dose for stimulating neurogenesis.

 

 

Has anybody following the protocol in this thread experienced mental health or cognitive benefits? If so, can you please briefly describe your experience?

 

I have now taken two 3 mg doses of C60 sourced from a local supplier: once on its own and once 3 hours following 10 g of stearic acid. Both times I felt a noticeable deterioration in cognition and a weird unpleasant "headspace". The unpleasant headspace seems to have resolved both times, but the impaired cognition is probably still there. I estimate it's been more than 48 hours since I took the second dose -- the cognitive impairment is so bad I can't be 100% when it was. So I thought I don't have the best oil, did some research on suppliers and concluded that www.carbon60oliveoil.com was considered the best. I ordered a small 30 ml bottle from them. Soon after I found out that C60 (1) does not cross the BBB and (2) is in fact toxic and does the exact opposite of what I need it to do when injected into the hippocampus. My own response to it is inconsistent with (1) but consistent with (2). Also, I have read through hundreds of posts of reports on C60 use dating back to 2013 and there are relatively very few which cite any adverse effect on mood or cognition. I include a recent post from Fafner55 made in this thread because it is one of the few reports of unpleasant mental effects of C60, albeit in combination with NSI-189. And we know that NSI-189 works through hippocampal neurogenesis, so does his experience suggest that C60 does in fact cross the BBB and does exhibit effect in the hippocampus?

 

It's all very confusing. If my mental state and cognition do not at least come back to baseline, I will have to look for a protocol for hippocampal stem cell self-renewal without C60, if such a protocol can be devised.

[lost69]

carbon60oliveoil is the one i am using because i have no free time to do it myself, i never had any problem with it.whatever the effect i guess it takes time for neural stemcells to repair damage.i d also start very low with doses (c60 may also have a detox effect and this may deteriorate your condition at first)

my experience with stearic acid from duda was feeling bad for few hours (nausea), i dont know if this was due to bad quality of stearic acid or because stearic acid even if pure is difficult to digest, then time after time i got used to it

 

the best one is of course made by 99,99% pure c60, but i don t think it is used by online suppliers, too expensive, most of them use 99.9% purity

 

 

Edited by lost69, 13 October 2018 - 07:18 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I have now taken two 3 mg doses of C60 sourced from a local supplier: once on its own and once 3 hours following 10 g of stearic acid. Both times I felt a noticeable deterioration in cognition and a weird unpleasant "headspace". The unpleasant headspace seems to have resolved both times, but the impaired cognition is probably still there. I estimate it's been more than 48 hours since I took the second dose -- the cognitive impairment is so bad I can't be 100% when it was. So I thought I don't have the best oil, did some research on suppliers and concluded that www.carbon60oliveoil.com was considered the best. I ordered a small 30 ml bottle from them. Soon after I found out that C60 (1) does not cross the BBB and (2) is in fact toxic and does the exact opposite of what I need it to do when injected into the hippocampus. My own response to it is inconsistent with (1) but consistent with (2). Also, I have read through hundreds of posts of reports on C60 use dating back to 2013 and there are relatively very few which cite any adverse effect on mood or cognition. I include a recent post from Fafner55 made in this thread because it is one of the few reports of unpleasant mental effects of C60, albeit in combination with NSI-189. And we know that NSI-189 works through hippocampal neurogenesis, so does his experience suggest that C60 does in fact cross the BBB and does exhibit effect in the hippocampus?

 

It's all very confusing. If my mental state and cognition do not at least come back to baseline, I will have to look for a protocol for hippocampal stem cell self-renewal without C60, if such a protocol can be devised.

 

 

Again, I suggest you look elsewhere for a solution to your problem. At the age of 38 and with a hippocampal volume in the 99th percentile, you don't need this. In fact, perhaps your hippocampal volume is already too large. Certainly if larger were always better, human beings would already have larger ones.  Two other points--

 

1. The paper your referenced re C60 was not using dissolved C60. C60 dissolved in oil does cross the BBB. From the Baati paper in 2012--

 

Whereas C60 particles were not detected in the brain after

intratracheal instillation [43], the presence of significant amounts

in the brain 24 hours after both oral and i.p. administrations under

our experimental conditions (Table 2) confirms that solubilized C60

can cross the blood brain barrier [25].

 

 

 

2. Anecdotal reports here suggests that C60 does react with certain drugs, even when those drugs were taken months before. Fluorine containing antimicrobials like Ciprofloxacin, for instance. See this thread.

[Graviton]

Based on the protocol of this thread, I wonder whether increasing UCP-1 expression is in the similar direction as this protocol or not

 

 

 

Lastly, in dietary supplementation with CLA + FO, some effects of each oil were maintained, such as improved mitochondrial biogenesis and fusion (attributed to EPA/DHA) and fission (attributed to CLA) in the liver, and uncoupling (attributed to CLA) and dynamics (attributed to EPA/DHA) in hippocampus. Moreover, this combination preserved mitochondrial density in BAT with a slight UCP-1 increase. In rats, CLA + FO supplementation increased BAT mass and UCP-1 mRNA expression, augmented food intake without affecting body weight, suggesting an elevated metabolic rate in these animals.

 

Edited by Graviton, 15 October 2018 - 03:26 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

It's in the opposite direction, Graviton. To wake up stem cells, mitochondria have to become more active, thus what you need is a UCP blocker and not more uncoupling. Supplements that increase ATP may be helpful, but blocking uncoupling pores is the main thing.

[Graviton]

Then, fish oil might not be the good choice for this protocol although there is a paper saying it induces mitochondrial fusion in liver.

[Turnbuckle]

For filing stem cell pools you want symmetric division (self-renewal). So ideally you want low ROS, blocked UCP, and fused mitochondria. A lot of things will tip the fusion/fission balance, but C:18:0 seems to be unique in this regard, with a robust activity--

 

We show here that C18:0 ingestion rapidly and robustly causes mitochondrial fusion in people within 3 h after ingestion. ... This work thereby identifies C18:0 as a dietary metabolite that is sensed by our bodies to control our mitochondria. This could explain part of the epidemiological differences between C16:0 and C18:0, whereby C16:0 increases cardiovascular and cancer risk whereas C18:0 decreases both.

 

Ingestion of the C18:0 drink caused mitochondria to fuse, both 3 and 6 h after ingestion: the fraction of neutrophils with fragmented mitochondria dropped significantly from 50 to 25% while the fraction of neutrophils with fused mitochondria increased significantly from 7 to 27% (Fig. 1c). This occurred in both healthy and diabetic subjects (Fig. 1e, g), and the response was quite robust, with 19 of the 21 subjects (90% of subjects) having more fused mitochondria after ingestion of C18:0.

https://www.nature.c...467-018-05614-6

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 15 October 2018 - 04:38 PM.