2523 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

As I understand fasting triggers mito fusion and the first part of the protocol also triggers fusion. What I do not get is fasting triggers autophagy and apoptosis which we achieve with the second part of the protocol. So when I hear fasting is used in the c60 study I always thought it is the second part of the protocol achieving this instead of the first part. Still quite confusing for me as I intuitively feel going into a fasting state using nicotinamide rather than stearic acid. Just trying to wrap my head around this

 

What fasting promotes depends on the conditions --

 

Here, we address these questions by examining mitochondrial morphology under nutrient deprivation. Our results demonstrate that mitochondrial elongation is induced shortly after starvation. This mitochondrial tubulation is reversible and depends on the specific nutrients depleted. Mitochondrial elongation does not occur when autophagy is induced by serum depletion or glucose elimination. Rather, mitochondrial elongation is a specific response to deprivation of glutamine and/or amino acids, with faster, more extensive mitochondrial tubulation upon additional depletion of glucose and serum. We demonstrate that starvation-induced mitochondrial elongation is mediated by down-regulation of Drp1, leading to unopposed mitochondrial fusion. The mitochondrial elongation response is further shown to protect mitochondria from autophagic turnover under starvation conditions. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3121813/

 

 

 

The following was found in humans--

 

Mitochondrial fusion protein (Mfn2) significantly increased in endurance-trained subjects in both fasted and high-fat diet state. Mfn2 protein content tended to be higher in the fasting state but significantly increased following the high fat meal in the endurance-trained subjects.

https://onlinelibrar...1002/jcsm.12611

 

 

 

So a combination of fasting, following by a high fat meal would produce the greatest fusion. If the rats in the Baati trail were fasted and then fed olive oil, that would have produced the highest level of fusion proteins. Assuming their mitochondria respond in the same way, of course.

 

Rats are easy to get into a fasting state as their metabolic rate is 6 times that of humans. I can't expect most people to fast for this, thus I use things like stearic acid and DHM to get fusion.

 

Mitochondrial fission is necessary for both mitophagy and apoptosis. This is achieved with nicotinamide in the second part of the protocol, which increases NAD+.

 

Nicotinamide Treatment Facilitates Mitochondrial Fission through Drp1 Activation Mediated by SIRT1-Induced Changes in Cellular Levels of cAMP and Ca 2...These results suggest that NAD+-mediated SIRT1 activation facilitates mitochondrial fission through activation of Drp1 by suppressing its phosphorylation and accelerating its dephosphorylation. https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/33802063/

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 12 September 2022 - 09:53 PM.

[Empiricus]

I have been on unsweetened dark chocolate (100% cocoa) for Fusion days with C60 which works really well for me, but now thinking to upgrade.  I have some Myricetin in stock that I should finish before I switch to DHM for long term.  Would there be some rough dosing equivalence between Myricetin vs DHM? like how much 1g of DHM = xx mg Myricetin?

 

According to Turnbuckle's hypothesis, it's really important that your mitochondria are in fusion when you take the c60, otherwise the c60 can be detrimental.  

 

Therefore, I think it's not such a good idea to experiment too much with fusion promoters on this protocol.

 

If you want to substitute non-recommended stearic and dihydromyricetin alternatives, better to do it on Turnbuckle's mitochondria protocol.  That protocol incorporates a robust feedback mechanism that would allow you to test out a possible alternative fusion promotor.  Once you've tested the supplement there, and have some data showing it's actually putting you in fusion, then you're safer trying it out on this protocol. 

Edited by Empiricus, 13 September 2022 - 06:07 AM.

[Empiricus]

 

Rats are easy to get into a fasting state as their metabolic rate is 6 times that of humans. I can't expect most people to fast for this, thus I use things like stearic acid and DHM to get fusion.

 

Wouldn't ketosis be almost a good as fasting?  That's easier in my experience.  And as with fasting, it could save money on supplements.  

[Learner056]

I love your suggestion, though I am not aware of 'feedback mechanism' that you are referring to, maybe I missed reading it, could you elaborate a little? 

 

My vision improved rapidly on Fusion as well BP and pulse got down even before C60 (which I use topically for aesthetics on face/scalp only, though it wants to power my arms more so, which is a plus too).  PQQ seems to be best for aesthetics so far.  On fission, my vision goes back somewhat, but I think over time this might get fixed also.   I think my body is deeply adapted to glycolysis side of fusion (because I ate overwhelming refined sugar more than any other human has, and 99% of life).  But I do get a sense that on Fission it clearly switches me into OxPhos, as my aches vanish totally (i.e. elimination of Lactate as fuel source).  I think taking PQQ during Fusion may over time switch me to OxPhos side of Fusion too.  These are some secrets, I am trying to understand quickly before I transition to version 2 of myself completely and loose my older version 1, as I have a feeling (which I might be wrong) that back on glycolysis fuel, while it gave aches, but one thing it took better care of were my stem cells.

 

That protocol incorporates a robust feedback mechanism that would allow you to test out a possible alternative fusion promotor.  Once you've tested the supplement there, and have some data showing it's actually putting you in fusion, then you're safer trying it out on this protocol. 

 

Edited by Learner056, 13 September 2022 - 07:28 AM.

[Empiricus]

I love your suggestion, though I am not aware of 'feedback mechanism' that you are referring to, maybe I missed reading it, could you elaborate a little? 

 

Refers to exercises -- dumbbell curls, or whatever -- you're supposed to do next morning after taking the fission or fusion supplements.  Then you plot how many you were able to do on a chart.  If you score higher on fusion days, your fusion supplement is likely working.

My vision improved rapidly on Fusion as well BP and pulse got down even before C60 (which I use topically for aesthetics on face/scalp only, though it wants to power my arms more so, which is a plus too).  PQQ seems to be best for aesthetics so far.  On fission, my vision goes back somewhat, but I think over time this might get fixed also.   I think my body is deeply adapted to glycolysis side of fusion (because I ate overwhelming refined sugar more than any other human has, and 99% of life).  But I do get a sense that on Fission it clearly switches me into OxPhos, as my aches vanish totally (i.e. elimination of Lactate as fuel source).  I think taking PQQ during Fusion may over time switch me to OxPhos side of Fusion too.  These are some secrets, I am trying to understand quickly before I transition to version 2 of myself completely and loose my older version 1, as I have a feeling (which I might be wrong) that back on glycolysis fuel, while it gave aches, but one thing it took better care of were my stem cells.

 

Personally, I'm not able to sense when my cells are in a fusion state.  

 

If you've developed that skill, perhaps you don't need to do the exercise endurance tests.  

 

Edited by Empiricus, 13 September 2022 - 08:50 AM.

[QuestforLife]

What fasting promotes depends on the conditions --

 

 

The paper you reference ( https://onlinelibrar...002/jcsm.12611)on inducing fusion by depletion of glutamine and other AAs is actually wrong - it has been superseded with new information (see my recent post above). You need to fast from AAs to induce mild fusion, but then supplement with glutamine and leucine and arginine to induce hyper-fusion (whilst still restricting the other AAs). 

 

How well this will work in combination with the high saturated fat (SA) is not known, however. 

[Empiricus]

Since I don't have an oven for cooking Mito Brownies, instead I added GMS to some scrambled eggs.  They tasted OK.  Should I wait 3 hours before taking the c60 and other stuff?  

 

Actually, I don't understand the point of the brownies, but I feel like I should be replacing them somehow.  Are brownies only intended for people who only choose to use food grade steric acid (or food grade mango butter) and don't want to use GMS or dihydromyrocetin?   Are brownies basically for people with high blood pressure who don't tolerate a lot of GMS?  Would others be well advised to take more GMS at the time of c60, and not worry about cooking brownies?

Edited by Empiricus, 13 September 2022 - 03:00 PM.

[ambivalent]

A couple of years ago there was some discussion about using DMSO in one of the protocols, possiby in senolytics - I used it with Fisetin. Someone then linked a study demonstrating that, rats, if I recall, taking DMSO at very low concentrations, perhaps 1/1000, experienced apoptosis in brain cells. And so DMSO was rejected out of caution. 

 

Given the exapansion space of the fusion protocol, to pass the blood brain barrier, might this be worth including assuming DMSO is selective in killing off weaker cells and presumably DMSO might encourage cells in other organs into apoptosis?

A couple of years ago there was some discussion about using DMSO in one of the protocols, possiby in senolytics - I used it with Fisetin. Someone then linked a study demonstrating that, rats, if I recall, taking DMSO at very low concentrations, perhaps 1/1000, experienced apoptosis in brain cells. And so DMSO was rejected out of caution. 

 

Given the exapansion space of the fusion protocol, to pass the blood brain barrier, might this be worth including assuming DMSO is selective in killing off weaker cells and presumably DMSO might encourage cells in other organs into apoptosis?

[ambivalent]

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/19100327/

 

 

"Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) is a solvent that is routinely used as a cryopreservative in allogous bone marrow and organ transplantation. We exposed C57Bl/6 mice of varying postnatal ages (P0-P30) to DMSO in order to study whether DMSO could produce apoptotic degeneration in the developing CNS. DMSO produced widespread apoptosis in the developing mouse brain at all ages tested. Damage was greatest at P7. Significant elevations above the background rate of apoptosis occurred at the lowest dose tested, 0.3 ml/kg. In an in vitro rat hippocampal culture preparation, DMSO produced neuronal loss at concentrations of 0.5% and 1.0%. The ability of DMSO to damage neurons in dissociated cultures indicates that the toxicity likely results from a direct cellular effect. Because children, who undergo bone marrow transplantation, are routinely exposed to DMSO at doses higher than 0.3 ml/kg, there is concern that DMSO might be producing similar damage in human children."

 

Interesting comment from private correspondence with one of the paper's authors:

 

https://www.longecit...ty/#entry779141

 

"In private correspondence, one of the authors of the first of the abovementioned studies confirmed that the the toxicity found is confined to the human developing CNS: "Yes, our data indicate that this type of damage could be occurring in the human developing brain. From previous work in rodents we know that this type of damage does not occur in adult brains. The exact line where the damage stops occurring in humans is unknown at this time." [my emphasis]

 

When pressed on the issue of whether the toxicity could be occurring in the adult hippocampus, where neurogenesis continues to occur throughout a person's lifetime, the author confirmed that no toxicity was found in the adult hippocampus: "When we have looked at the adult hippocampus using our methods we have not seen this type of damage in the hippocampus." [my emphasis]"

 

 

 

Edited by ambivalent, 13 September 2022 - 07:52 PM.

[Learner056]

I just marvel at your beautiful mind: 

a) I think: Guanosine + Ribose = GTP

One can find guanosine 5g for $28.  I don't know if Guanosine is related to Guanidine (a muscle stimulant) or Guanfacine (Attention deficit drug, which so many suffer from).

 

b) While I really like PQQ.  I do worry about taking it during Fusion.  I consistently read that OxPhos is great for differentiation/fission, while Glycolysis for self-renewal/fusion?  I have not observed any negatives with PQQ, but I worry if I'm sub-duing the self-renewal potential?  Maybe you people have some good rationale for including PQQ in fusion?. 

 

One wonders if direct supplementation of the guanosine nucleoside would be easier (if possible)?

 

Edited by Learner056, 13 September 2022 - 08:14 PM.

[Kelvin]

Given the exapansion space of the fusion protocol, to pass the blood brain barrier, might this be worth including assuming DMSO is selective in killing off weaker cells and presumably DMSO might encourage cells in other organs into apoptosis?

I’d want to be 110% certain it isn’t killing healthy neurons before even thinking of including it.

Remember that parts of the brain like the frontal lobes do not have stem cells to replace old neurons with.

Besides, shouldn’t the regular senolytics already used in the protocol be killing senescent neurons?

Why make the protocol more complex With an additional variable?

This protocol is already plenty experimental as it is.

Edited by Kelvin, 14 September 2022 - 12:30 AM.

[ambivalent]

I’d want to be 110% certain it isn’t killing healthy neurons before even thinking of including it.

Remember that parts of the brain like the frontal lobes do not have stem cells to replace old neurons with.

Besides, shouldn’t the regular senolytics already used in the protocol be killing senescent neurons?

Why make the protocol more complex With an additional variable?

This protocol is already plenty experimental as it is.

 

 

I understand though, its worth pointing out DMSO has been used therapeutically for decades, one guy drunk it here, diluted obviously, every day.  There is even a 60 minutes feature in the 70s on it - I do seem to remember the proponent may in his very late years developed dementia or alzheimers, but of course that would have been after much use one assumes and obviously may not have been causative. So a drop in a cup of distilled water is likely not too much to worry about.

 

The intitial idea was to use DMSO as a transporter because of its incredible solvency but the apoptosis might provide some benefit within this protocol. 

 

Yes, it is experimental and no more than a thought to explore.

I’d want to be 110% certain it isn’t killing healthy neurons before even thinking of including it.

Remember that parts of the brain like the frontal lobes do not have stem cells to replace old neurons with.

Besides, shouldn’t the regular senolytics already used in the protocol be killing senescent neurons?

Why make the protocol more complex With an additional variable?

This protocol is already plenty experimental as it is.

 

 

I understand though, its worth pointing out DMSO has been used therapeutically for decades, one guy drunk it here, diluted obviously, every day.  There is even a 60 minutes feature in the 70s on it - I do seem to remember the proponent may in his very late years developed dementia or alzheimers, but of course that would have been after much use one assumes and obviously may not have been causative. So a drop in a cup of distilled water is likely not too much to worry about.

 

The intitial idea was to use DMSO as a transporter because of its incredible solvency but the apoptosis might provide some benefit within this protocol. 

 

Yes, it is experimental and no more than a thought to explore.

[Turnbuckle]

DMSO is highly not recommended. It is good for the occasional smashing injury (such as to your fingers) when applied topically, but don't take it orally or in great amounts. See Dimethyl Sulfoxide Induces Both Direct and Indirect Tau Hyperphosphorylation. Wallhack previously posted other dangers of DMSO here. 

[eighthman]

I'm writing this carefully in the aftermath of nearly losing my life.  Last week, I underwent emergency surgery for a bowel perforation of unknown origin. The surgeon kept suggesting it was from a past appendectomy  - but that operation was 50 years ago. He said I had a lot of scar tissue.

 

I awoke in intense pain during the 48 hr period during which I do the protocol here.  I realize that correlation is not causation.  I mixed the stearic acid with lots of lecithin as mildly warm goop and managed a small BM despite great pain. I guess I was 'cleared out' but rushed to hospital knowing something was very wrong.

 

So, did the mix cause some irritation and weakened intestine?  Heal some old scar with stem cells but not enough?  Or was this all coincidence after age 70?

 

I am an adult and accept responsibility for my actions. On google search, I don't see anything specific that might trigger my unfortunate events. I would appreciate learned input.

 

 

[ambivalent]

Well first off, this isn't a recommendation but an entry point for discussion: what might be the benefits of DMSO - then we can juxtapose the risks.

 

Second, this is "stem cell self-renewal with C60" thread.  In stating in bold type for DMSO to not be recommended for this protocol there is, obviously, an implicit recommendation of c60oo. Certainly you are neither taking nor affirming c60oo because it has has an adequate safety profile  - kmoody all but put a skull and cross bones on c60oo, describing it as both extremely unstable and toxic under light exposure. Now you haven't carried out studies to refute it and have presumably discarded the risks based on your own personal experience.

 

I wouldn't touch c60oo, nor would you, were the possibility of its benefits merely modest - I believe it probably is safe, but I have my doubts which is why I haven't recommended it to date, to others - which I trust dispels any lingering employment doubts. Due to your own personal experience, it seems, you've become inured to the risk, as have I.

 

Now, DMSO, has been used extensively and popularly for decades, so taking this stuff well within the boundaries of  those regular use would seem pretty safe unless  especially unlucky.  If its really readily bad for humans we would likely know, as anything therapeutic that's non profit making for BP is broadly briefed against. True, we might not know, which is why its best to stick to modest infrequent doses  

 

When initially mentioned a couple of years back to incoorporate within one of the protocols, you were quite enthuiastic about DMSO, though understandably turned off but the apoptosis study. But that has somewhat been refuted in adult brains if we are to believe comment of correspondence with a researcher in the linked thread, but also risk mittigation is supported by its long term usage by some individuals - Mikey, here for example.

 

So to take DMSO modestly, experimentally to see if there is some benefit to the protocol is a risk worth considering for some - c60oo represents a greater present risk given it doesn't have the widespread or length of usage amongst the broader population and has some damnng lab research.

 

As for the references, well there seems some refutation for adults in the apoptosis study and as mentioned widespread usage. I in fact took, maybe a tablespoon of 50:50 DMSO: distilled water dissolved with some amino acid complex, and felt it rapidly in my muscles, weirdly, but suffered no ill effects except the smell, obviously. After reading about the brain cell death study, I was a little worried, given the concentration levels cited and mine taken, but have been fine, I used it as a mouthwash too as well as putting a drop in a fisetin mixture. I haven't touched it since. Anyhow, I've been OK, that I know off, and I took quite a large concetrated dose. 

 

Now, there would seem to be little to be concerned with taking a drop or two: the tau-hyperphos mouse study was high dose, we wouldn't approach those levels. And these are mice, where I assume its easier to trigger hyopthermic reactions given their surface to mass ratio, than with humans - and I never noticed a reaction like that, only with Niacin have I experienced such a loss of heat. The point isn't to dismiss the study based on anecdotal evidence, but that the dosing very likely matters. And if not wanting DMSO on the inside, then best not have it on the outside either, it obviously easily penetrates the skin.

 

On the two risks pointed out in those references, cell apoptosis and AD deposits. I assume your stem cell protocol, which now crosses the BBB, and an AD the protocol mittigate some of these risks. 

 

Everyone's risk profile is different, but given the decades history of human taking of DMSO, to warn off folk from very modest experimental dosing of DMSO within the protocol on safety grounds, while taking c60oo seems a little odd. In particular for those who have taken DMSO orally, in the past or indeed likely applied topically, then there is limited additional risk in a few diluted drops more. 

 

c60oo, is about risk/reward trade off as would be DMSO. That's why many of us are here and the post was designed as an entry point to that discussion.

 

 

   

Edited by ambivalent, 15 September 2022 - 02:29 PM.

[Empiricus]

I'm writing this carefully in the aftermath of nearly losing my life.  Last week, I underwent emergency surgery for a bowel perforation of unknown origin. The surgeon kept suggesting it was from a past appendectomy  - but that operation was 50 years ago. He said I had a lot of scar tissue.

 

I awoke in intense pain during the 48 hr period during which I do the protocol here.  I realize that correlation is not causation.  I mixed the stearic acid with lots of lecithin as mildly warm goop and managed a small BM despite great pain. I guess I was 'cleared out' but rushed to hospital knowing something was very wrong.

 

So, did the mix cause some irritation and weakened intestine?  Heal some old scar with stem cells but not enough?  Or was this all coincidence after age 70?

 

I am an adult and accept responsibility for my actions. On google search, I don't see anything specific that might trigger my unfortunate events. I would appreciate learned input.

 

Sorry to hear what you went through. Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

I think it would be extremely helpful if you could provide a more detailed account of your implementation of the protocol on this occasion.    

 

For example, you say you "mixed stearic acid with lots of lecithin."  That doesn't sound like a step described by Turnbuckle. So it would be helpful if you could elaborate.  If we know all the steps you took with great precision, we may be able to identify something specific that should be avoided in the future. For example, how many grams of stearic acid? What brand, etc.  And so on for all the supplements.  

 

****  

I was reading reviews of Bulk Supplement's GMS on Amazon the other day, and I noticed several reviewers referred to GMS having hurt their stomach or intestines.  

Edited by Empiricus, 15 September 2022 - 04:18 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I don't want this thread to get into an off-topic discussion of the merits of DMSO when it isn't even part of the protocol. Use it if you want, but I strongly recommend you don't take it orally. As for C60, its sensitivity to light is well known. Years ago I pointed out that a few minutes of red light could turn its oil vehicle rancid, and thus the amber bottles it was sold in were insufficient. A black zip lock bag around the container, or metal container are far better. And keeping it in the freezer is also a good idea. It will keep for years that way. C60 is safe, but derivatives are not necessarily safe. Some can be quite dangerous, as one of the researchers on the rat paper pointed out 5 years before that longevity study was published. 

 

From 2007: Available data clearly shows that pristine C60 has no acute or sub-acute toxicity in a large variety of living organisms, from bacteria and fungal to human leukocytes, and also in drosophila, mice, rats and guinea pigs. In contrast to chemically—either covalently or noncovalently—modified fullerenes, some C60 derivatives can be highly toxic. Furthermore, under light exposure, C60 is an efficient singlet oxygen sensitizer. Therefore, if pristine C60 is absolutely nontoxic under dark conditions, this is not the case under UV-Visible irradiation and in the presence of O2 where fullerene solutions can be highly toxic through 1O2 formation.

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/18217343/

 

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 15 September 2022 - 04:06 PM.

[Empiricus]

Last night I did the fusion part of the protocol and experienced some mild unpleasant side effects.  Here's how my implementation of the protocol differed from Turnbuckle's most recent version:

 

1.5 hours before T1

- 10 grams of GMS in scrambled eggs (no brownies)

 

45 mins before T1

- 8 ounces of ribeye steak and 3 ounces of yogurt

 

T1

- 8 grams of GMS powder in mixture

- 1 tsp from a new bottle of SES 99.99% c60 in olive oil

- 5 or 10 grams of dihydromyricetin by Nature Bell (Case where I forgot whether I had already added it, so I added more). 

- other supps as per Turnbuckle's protocol.

 

About an hour later, when I got up I experienced dizziness and had to lie down.  I got up a second time time, and still felt dizzy so went to bed.  In the morning my thinking was fuzzy, as in not very sharp.  I suspect these symptoms are related to the dihydromyricetin, because on many previous occasions I have tolerated large doses of GMS just fine.  

Edited by Empiricus, 15 September 2022 - 04:49 PM.

[eighthman]

Reply to Empiricus

 

In the past, I did the brownies with stearic acid baked in. However, the added dihydromycetin made them difficult to eat. Instead, I tried doing hot chocolate with about 9 grams of the stearic acid mixed with about 5 g of lecithin to emulsify it.  Later, I would swallow the dihydromycetin separately.

 

The whole protocol tends to make me a bit nauseous so I reduced some amounts of lysine and dihydromycetin.  I haven't tried the GMS yet, just the straight stearic acid granules

[ambivalent]

I'm writing this carefully in the aftermath of nearly losing my life.  Last week, I underwent emergency surgery for a bowel perforation of unknown origin. The surgeon kept suggesting it was from a past appendectomy  - but that operation was 50 years ago. He said I had a lot of scar tissue.

 

I awoke in intense pain during the 48 hr period during which I do the protocol here.  I realize that correlation is not causation.  I mixed the stearic acid with lots of lecithin as mildly warm goop and managed a small BM despite great pain. I guess I was 'cleared out' but rushed to hospital knowing something was very wrong.

 

Sorry to hear this eigthman and hope you are recovering well.

 

Might this perforation be triggerd by ulcers? I seem to remember reading of an australian researcher speculatiing stomach ulcers resulted from a particular bacteria - gave himself the bacterial infection, then the stomach ulcers followed, then cleared it with antibiotics.  

 

Which in turn goes back to speculation linking c60 to protecting bacteria - there have been anecdotes, including from me, of incidents of bacterial infection flare ups triggered by c60. This was the possible how:

 

https://www.longecit...-10#entry699034

 

The c60-ROS sponge theory had some weight too.

 

Gut flora can differ wildly from person to person, obviously, so obviously if there is a connection with c60 to a particular bacterial strain, then it may not show up. 

 

Stearic acid raises blood pressure - iirc - so obviously might have been a catalyst. 

Edited by ambivalent, 15 September 2022 - 06:20 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Last night I did the fusion part of the protocol and experienced some mild unpleasant side effects.  Here's how my implementation of the protocol differed from Turnbuckle's most recent version:

 

1.5 hours before T1

- 10 grams of GMS in scrambled eggs (no brownies)

 

45 mins before T1

- 8 ounces of ribeye steak and 3 ounces of yogurt

 

T1

- 8 grams of GMS powder in mixture

- 1 tsp from a new bottle of SES 99.99% c60 in olive oil

- 5 or 10 grams of dihydromyricetin by Nature Bell (Case where I forgot whether I had already added it, so I added more). 

- other supps as per Turnbuckle's protocol.

 

About an hour later, when I got up I experienced dizziness and had to lie down.  I got up a second time time, and still felt dizzy so went to bed.  In the morning my thinking was fuzzy, as in not very sharp.  I suspect these symptoms are related to the dihydromyricetin, because on many previous occasions I have tolerated large doses of GMS just fine.  

 

 

GMS dissolves in hot water, and you don't need that much as it is fast acting once dissolved. Fusion can do bad things to your BP. The first time I tried GMS, my BP shot up past 200 with 5g. With some people it might actually decease BP. So you ought to test it next time.

 

I haven't tried the GMS yet, just the straight stearic acid granules

 

Stearic acid granules will not digest. If you are taking it that way, you will not get fusion.

GMS dissolves very nicely in hot water, and you don't need that much as it is fast acting once dissolved. Fusion can do funny things to your BP. The first time I tried GMS, my BP shot up past 200. With some people it might actually decease BP. So you ought to test it next time.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 15 September 2022 - 06:06 PM.

[ambivalent]

 

I don't want this thread to get into an off-topic discussion of the merits of DMSO when it isn't even part of the protocol. Use it if you want, but I strongly recommend you don't take it orally. As for C60, its sensitivity to light is well known. Years ago I pointed out that a few minutes of red light could turn its oil vehicle rancid, and thus the amber bottles it was sold in were insufficient. A black zip lock bag around the container, or metal container are far better. And keeping it in the freezer is also a good idea. It will keep for years that way. C60 is safe, but derivatives are not necessarily safe. Some can be quite dangerous, as one of the researchers on the rat paper pointed out 5 years before that longevity study was published. 

 

 

I'm not going to push the discussion if no one wants it, I doubt I would have be taking it anytime soon.

 

Yes I remember you did mention that, but still stuff can happen in transport, and I used to wonder about taking a swig then going out on sunny days. Nevertheless, it is still a risk, that quite a few wouldn't take and I wouldn't recommend currently since while it is under my risk threshold but not so for suggesting to others.

Edited by ambivalent, 15 September 2022 - 06:07 PM.

[ambivalent]

Stearic acid granules will not digest. If you are taking it that way, you will not get fusion.

 

I used to take it neat, and was pretty sure I got a fusion effect - a lot of endurance after being tired out from fission. It may not be as effective, but I was quite sure it worked without heating. 

[Turnbuckle]

Might this perforation be triggerd by ulcers? 

 

Surely, and it seems far more likely stearic acid had something to do with it rather than C60. And if so, he should switch to only DHM (once he recovers), which has a rep for improving colitis.

 

Stearic acid and other long-chain SFA have been shown to inhibit endothelial cell growth, as well as induce inflammation, apoptosis, and accentuate intercellular adhesion molecule 1 (ICAM-1) expression. Similar actions may also be occurring in the intestinal tissue.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4100336/

 

 

And he took quite a lot of GMS -- 18 grams.

[kurt9]

Years ago I pointed out that a few minutes of red light could turn its oil vehicle rancid, and thus the amber bottles it was sold in were insufficient. A black zip lock bag around the container, or metal container are far better. And keeping it in the freezer is also a good idea.

 

I keep mine (which is in an amber bottle) in a black bag in the back of a cupboard under the sink in my bathroom. The only time it is exposed to light is when I take it out to put in the fusion stack. I actually do this in the bathroom with only a night light on. It will go into the freezer once I've completed the cycles I want to do this fall.

[Repack Racing]

Last night I did the fusion part of the protocol and experienced some mild unpleasant side effects.  Here's how my implementation of the protocol differed from Turnbuckle's most recent version:

 

1.5 hours before T1

- 10 grams of GMS in scrambled eggs (no brownies)

 

45 mins before T1

- 8 ounces of ribeye steak and 3 ounces of yogurt

 

T1

- 8 grams of GMS powder in mixture

- 1 tsp from a new bottle of SES 99.99% c60 in olive oil

- 5 or 10 grams of dihydromyricetin by Nature Bell (Case where I forgot whether I had already added it, so I added more). 

- other supps as per Turnbuckle's protocol.

 

About an hour later, when I got up I experienced dizziness and had to lie down.  I got up a second time time, and still felt dizzy so went to bed.  In the morning my thinking was fuzzy, as in not very sharp.  I suspect these symptoms are related to the dihydromyricetin, because on many previous occasions I have tolerated large doses of GMS just fine.  

 

Empiricus,

 

Thanks for sharing your experience. To Turnbuckles point - those doses are very high, much higher than the protocol.  It's a good rule of thumb that more isn't always better.  In fact, often "less is more."  I also highly recommend easing into any new supplement. Since you already had experience with high dose GMS, it was probably the dihydromyricetin, of which that's also a very large dose.  Start with a half-dose or less to see how you react. I have learned this lesson the hard way more than once. One good note is that your experience likely means you were getting a benefit.  BTW - I also feel a bit strange after dihydromyricetin sometimes.
 

[ambivalent]

Surely, and it seems far more likely stearic acid had something to do with it rather than C60. And if so, he should switch to only DHM (once he recovers), which has a rep for improving colitis.

 

 

And he took quite a lot of GMS -- 18 grams.

 

Certainly stearic acid triggered the reaction and might be the direct cause, as you suggest - though you would imagine it would have been a combination with something else too. One might too have imagined the protocol to possibly be reparative of any pre existing weakness or incurred through the protocol, which at least it is known it wasn't. 

 

Anyhow, not something I am giving advice on but merely to suggest a possible explanation.

Edited by ambivalent, 16 September 2022 - 08:58 AM.

[ambivalent]

I keep mine (which is in an amber bottle) in a black bag in the back of a cupboard under the sink in my bathroom. The only time it is exposed to light is when I take it out to put in the fusion stack. I actually do this in the bathroom with only a night light on. It will go into the freezer once I've completed the cycles I want to do this fall.

 

This shouldn't be labeled as "pointless, timewasting" - reminders of storing c60 oil safely should be periodic.  

[Turnbuckle]

Certainly stearic acid triggered the reaction and might be the direct cause, as you suggest - though you would imagine it would have been a combination with something else too. One might too have imagined the protocol to possibly be reparative of any pre existing weakness or incurred through the protocol, which at least it is known it wasn't. 

 

Anyhow, not something I am giving advice on but merely to suggest a possible explanation.

 

 

Keep in mind that the fusion part of the protocol increases stem cell numbers, but doesn't use them. That happens later.

[ambivalent]

Keep in mind that the fusion part of the protocol increases stem cell numbers, but doesn't use them. That happens later.

 

Yes, though eightman had been on the protocol for a while, so I would have assumed the weakness had accrued - those previous renewal cycles didn't offset the damage of the stearic acid, if that was the case.

Edited by ambivalent, 16 September 2022 - 11:41 AM.