2523 replies to this topic

[Answers]

Well I did do two days of the mitochondria protocol then hopped on to the c60/fusion.

I guess I'll just take more fisetin whilst doing the fission instead?

One thing I'm not doing now is taking the amino acids every 3 hours. I did it for the first day on c60 but stopped.

I take 75mcg levothyroxine when I wake up and I trial various herbal supplements to combat various problems but that's always changing and some are lesser known. Unfortunately I am going to have to return to trialling things as I can't rely solely on c60. I'm also taking taurine.

For fusion I do

3 grams DHM in capsule form
2 grams sunflower lecithin
3.75 grams AAKG(each capsule is 1250mg)

Wait 10 minutes

Liposomal glutathione 1 gram

Wait 20 minutes

2 grams lysine
2 grams methionine
4g c60 capsules (pure olive oil c60)

I take the above at the same time.

For fission it's the same dose of AAKG plus 1 gram nicotinamide and 100mg fisetin taken at the same time.

[Kelvin]

The newly created stem cells need methionine and lysine for the whole cycle for food. If they are not fed methionine and lysine they will struggle to form properly.

Also there shouldn’t be any other drugs or supplements taken while on the protocol because of the risk they will interfere with process.

Using Fisetin is recommended as is taking the fission stack for both fission days.

Since you have taken 3 cycles now you should be ready to add 5-HTP in the next cycle or two.

[Kelvin]

I took my variation of the C60 protocol again this Saturday.

This time I did not need so much lysine and methionine. I could go 2 to 3 hours before taking 1 gram of lysine and methionine easily without getting tired. In contrast, when I first did the cycle last February I needed to take 2 grams of each every hour to 90 minutes or else I would get VERY tired.

If I need less lysine and methionine that means my stem cell pools are much less depleted than they were when I started last year and so my body has less need for those amino acids.

I think people here can take how long they can go without lysine and methionine as a proxy measure for how full or empty their stem cell pools are.

Also, I used 5-HTP again but this time I saw no cognitive boost, unlike the last few times I took it. I interpret this to mean I have maxed out the benefit I can get from 5-HTP.

Edited by Kelvin, 21 February 2023 - 09:40 PM.

[Answers]

The newly created stem cells need methionine and lysine for the whole cycle for food. If they are not fed methionine and lysine they will struggle to form properly.

Also there shouldn’t be any other drugs or supplements taken while on the protocol because of the risk they will interfere with process.

Using Fisetin is recommended as is taking the fission stack for both fission days.

Since you have taken 3 cycles now you should be ready to add 5-HTP in the next cycle or two.

So I have to take methionine and lysine every 2-3 hours? Is it ok to take them with food?

Just nervous about taking 5htp because it has the potential to worsen me as I probably have too much serotonin already.

Not sure if this protocol will be enough to do what I'd like by resensitizing desensitized receptors, reversing dysautonomia/chronic fatigue style symptoms and repairing suspected damage to Brocas area.

Basically aiming for neuro repair and homeostasis

Edited by Answers, 21 February 2023 - 10:45 PM.

[Answers]

Also, if as I am reading SSRIs and other antidepressants cause epigenetic changes even in stem cells, wouldn't any new stem cells being created carry the same, chemically altered epigenetic code?

[Kelvin]

If you don’t feel tired take 1 gram each of lysine and methionine every 2 to 3 hours.

Yes, they will work with food or an empty stomach. I have had them after eating and they reversed my tiredness (eating a large meal did not, by itself, seem to satisfy my hungry stem cells).

Would you be able to take 50 mgs of 5-HTP? How much of an SSRI and which type causes a negative reaction in you?

I doubt any epigenetic effects would be significant with this protocol because you would only take an SSRI with the protocol, so maybe someone would take 5-HTP 3 or 6 times a year.

And the mito protocol with PQQ plus using Fisetin on C60 fission days will help eliminate defective cells (including many epigenetically damaged ones)which you may need to do if you are suffering from diseases.

The 5-HTP addition to the protocol is not going to cause much additional epigenetic damage.

Edited by Kelvin, 21 February 2023 - 11:58 PM.

[Kelvin]

For the mito protocol, keep in mind that you cannot eliminate epigenetically defective mitochondria without PQQ.

PQQ exposes epigenetically damaged mitochondria which are otherwise hard for the body to detect and destroy with apoptosis.

[Answers]

That's good to know about methionine and lysine.

Sorry I've not explained things well. I have permanent anhedonia and dysautonomia which was caused by antidepressants and is thought to be down to epigenetic effects, which is why it remains long after discontinuation and seems to be permanent. It is similar to PSSD.
I've took lots of PQQ in the past but it hasn't done a thing to reverse the above. Probably because the epigenetic effects of antidepressants aren't actual brain damage.
However I did sustain a suspected TBI which was a completely seperate incident.

My reason for doing this protocol isn't age reversal but to try and achieve some state of homeostasis by reversing those epigenetic effects in the brain/body, along with neural repair.

I can take 5htp if I have to, but I don't know if it's necessary or not and would rather avoid it. Because I am prone to muscle spasms and increasing serotonin appears to worsen this.

For neural repair/TBI, the part I want to reach is on the left side, as that is related to speech/language and inner voice I believe

Edited by Answers, 22 February 2023 - 12:44 AM.

[Kelvin]

PQQ must be taken with the other supplements in the mitochondria protocol.

If you took PQQ only in the past by itself it would not destroy epigenetically damaged mitochondria. The combination of fission with the biogenesis activity of PQQ and the demethylating effects of AKG is what exposes them for destruction by the body.

Do you think you could handle 50 mgs of 5-HTP?

Can you handle small amounts of any SSRI?

Because without an SSRI taken with the protocol I don’t know of a plausible (though not yet certain) way of circulating neural stem cells.

Unless you want to use mushrooms that have psilocybin, which also affects neurotransmitters.

The cycles you have taken without 5-HTP only expanded the stem cell pools in areas of your brain that already have them like the hippocampus.

Areas of the brain that do not have stem cell reserves (like the frontal lobes) will not benefit from what you have done to date unless something circulates them from areas like the hippocampus.

Edited by Kelvin, 22 February 2023 - 01:43 AM.

[Kelvin]

Another possibility is that you really need the mito protocol and add extra senolytics like 500 mgs of Fisetin and 500 mgs quercetin on fission days to kill defective cells before you see progress with the C60 protocol.

Edited by Kelvin, 22 February 2023 - 01:46 AM.

[Answers]

Thanks for explaining about the PQQ and fission.

I don't know if it's a good idea to try 5htp as I am prone to crashing and worsening from supplements that increase serotonin. Let alone an ssri which caused everything initially.

How does 5htp circulate stem cells?

I was hoping that they would go where needed.

Can I just add PQQ to the fission portion of the stem cell protocol? Aren't the other supplements practically identical?

[Kelvin]

Can you handle a small amount of SSRIs?

SSRIs in general cause neural stem cell circulation and neurogenesis in areas that already have them.

I and Turnbuckle speculated they might get stem cells circulated to areas in the brain that have no stem cells.

Absent using an SSRI the protocol will just fill stem cell pools in areas where the brain already has them, and you will continue to see no result.

If you add 50 mgs of 5-HTP you MIGHT see the stem cells circulate more broadly.

I don’t think adding PQQ to the C60 protocol is a good idea because it causes biogenesis and biogenesis might interfere with the development of the stem cells.

Reserve PQQ only for the mito protocol, not the C60 protocol.

I would suggest doing 20 rounds of the mito cycle with PQQ and senolytics on the mito fission days instead of the C60 protocol to get a handle on epigenetic damage.

Besides, PQQ won’t help circulate neural stem cells so no reason to add it to the C60 protocol.

Edited by Kelvin, 22 February 2023 - 02:34 AM.

[Answers]

No, none at all.

If the newly created stem cells only impact the hippocampus then there doesn't seem to be much point in the whole protocol as it's limited in what it can do. But I note that others see benefits from c60 for various ailments.

And if only the hippocampus is affected, how does this reverse aging?

[Kelvin]

Let me clarify that ANY part of the body with stem cells can benefit through the anti aging properties of the protocol.

My point was that some parts of the brain have stem cell reserves and others like the frontal lobes don’t. I wasn’t claiming that only the hippocampus would be the only body part to be helped by the protocol.

The reason I suggested 5-HTP was as a way to circulate stem cells to areas of the brain that do not have them and because, based on my anecdotal experience, I noticed a cognitive boost from 5-HTP and the C60 protocol that I didn’t experience without it.

So you have three options to possibly get stem cell renewal going in the brain more broadly -

1) Take the C60 protocol with 50 mgs 5-HTP to test if your symptoms improve (we already know, as theorized before you started, that the protocol would not help without an SSRI to circulate neural stem cells)

2) Find some other compound with the protocol to try to circulate neural stem cells (I have no idea what that might be)

3) Not use an SSRI or other compound to circulate stem cells and stop using the C60 protocol.

In my opinion it would be better if you tried two C60 cycles using 50 mgs of 5-HTP so that you at least know that it doesn’t work

If you keep refusing to use a small amount of 5-HTP then you ran the risk that adding it WOULD help your condition, but you would never know that it helped because you did not try it.

The only thing you would be doing would be replacing neural stem cells that had been depleted from SSRI use, but it still wouldn’t circulate to areas of the brain that do not have stem cells.

Those are your only options.

Edited by Kelvin, 22 February 2023 - 02:29 PM.

[Answers]

Thank you for clearing things up. That part confused me a bit but now I think I understand.

Are there studies which show that 5htp circulates stem cells? I know that serotonin and it's receptors can impact them in different ways.

When you talk about stem cell circulation, is this the same thing as stem cell differentiation?

I will have to think about it but may just take the mitochondria protocol for now as you suggested

Edited by Answers, 22 February 2023 - 04:44 PM.

[Kelvin]

By circulation I mean proliferation followed by differentiation.

All SSRIs including 5-HTP do this, but you could use a different SSRI. The advantage with 5-HTP is that it is cheap and available over the counter.

Either way you might have to use an SSRI with the C60 protocol since I can’t think of another way you could ever get stem cells to the parts of the brain that have no stem cell pools.

As far as I know there is nothing else you could take beside an SSRI with the C60 protocol with even a hypothetical mechanism of doing what you want.

I would recommend trying the C60 protocol with 50 mgs of 5-HTP at least once so you know if it works or not and you are already setup for it. If it doesn’t work you will at least know it doesn’t.

See these research papers on another SSRI fluoxetine -


Antidepressants stimulate hippocampal neurogenesis by inhibiting p21 expression in the subgranular zone of the hipppocampus. PLos One 2011; 6: e27290.

https://journals.plo...al.pone.0027290


Fluoxetine Regulates Neurogenesis In Vitro Through Modulation of GSK-3β/β-Catenin Signaling

https://academic.oup...5/pyu099/785929


Neuronal Stem Cell and Drug Interactions: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis: Concise Review

https://stemcellsjou...02/sctm.19-0020

Edited by Kelvin, 22 February 2023 - 10:00 PM.

[Answers]

Thanks again.

Will substances which cause neurogenesis have the potential to circulate stem cells?

If not I will just have to leave the stem cell protocol and look for another method to repair the brain.

Increasing serotonin is too risky as I already deal with symptoms of serotonin overload.

Not to mention I can never take those drugs again as they are why my brain is in such a bad state

Edited by Answers, 22 February 2023 - 11:24 PM.

[Kelvin]

As I said before they have the potential to, though SSRIs are the best studied. Other neurogenesis agents may not cause neural stem cell proliferation.

Also, as far as I know there is no known way to regenerate areas of the brain like the frontal lobe that have suffered damage because they have no stem cells.

The protocol without 5-HTP does increase neural stem cell pools in areas that already have them so it would be beneficial to take a few more without an SSRI to rebuild at least those stores (aside from the hypothesis SSRIs plus the C60 protocol could deliver stem cells to those areas, granted this is a hypothesis but I’ve not seen of anything else that might be able to accomplish this).

Otherwise you should pursue the epigenetic healing effects of the mito protocol I already discussed.

Remember that the effects of the mito protocol start slowly for those with mitochondrial damage which you probably have in your case. So it may take up to 10 mito cycles for you to see improvement and up to 30 mito cycles to fully repair damaged mitochondria. Don’t use 500 mgs of Fisetin for more than 5 cycles in a row.

Edited by Kelvin, 22 February 2023 - 11:58 PM.

[Answers]

Is it completely impossible for stem cells generated by the protocol without 5htp to reach the frontal lobes? Won't any manage to get there?

Could resveratrol possibly be a substitute for 5htp?

And does just the mitochondria protocol have the potential to fix any neural damage in the frontal lobes or does it need the c60 etc?

Thanks

Edited by Answers, 23 February 2023 - 12:08 AM.

[Kelvin]

There is no evidence neural stem cells in areas like the hippocampus can reach the frontal lobes on their own.

Also, even if there were a way to get neural stem cells to the frontal lobes the neural stem cell pool would have to be replenished. The only way anyone has figured out how to replenish stem cells is the C60 protocol.

I don’t know about any other substance aside from SSRIs or other neurotransmitter reuptake inhibitors like psilocybin from mushrooms that would do this.

The mito protocol will help the frontal lobes if it is suffering from mitochondrial damage but doesn’t need new neurons.

But to generate new neurons in the frontal lobes would require stem cell reserves that it ordinarily doesn’t have access to. The mito protocol would not help at all to generate entirely new neurons, it would only repair the mitochondria of existing neurons.

This is why I’m telling you adding a small amount of an SSRI might be your only hope (still not guaranteed) of fixing that area if the mito protocol isn’t enough.

Edited by Kelvin, 23 February 2023 - 12:22 AM.

[Answers]

I see.

Sorry I am sidetracking a bit here but if I took lots of PQQ after the damage occured and it did not help, would this be an indicator of whether the damage is mitochondrial in nature? I know that the complete mitochondria protocol is required to discard damaged cells but wouldn't PQQ give existing mitochondria a boost?

Sorry for the constant questions, I just don't understand a whole lot about this and appreciate your help.

[Kelvin]

PQQ taken by itself will not kill damaged mitochondria.

Only the combination of a NAD+ booster like nicotinamide, AKG and PQQ will work for epigenetically damaged, or otherwise damaged, mitochondria. Then remember you need fusion to create healthy mitochondria.

Things that help healthy mitochondria frequently keep bad ones alive and nourished. If you took PQQ by itself in the past and it didn’t work that does not have any relevance to the mito protocol.

Edited by Kelvin, 23 February 2023 - 01:17 AM.

[Answers]

Sorry I didn't explain it very well. I mean the neuro-cognitive damage I sustained in a one off event.

I was wondering if taking PQQ before would have shed light on whether it could be down to bad mitochondria or neuronal damage.

After taking PQQ and other things I assumed it was not due to mitochondria as it did not help.

I know this was different to the mito protocol you promote which removes damaged cells

[Kelvin]

Taking PQQ by itself will not tell you if you suffered mito damage to your brain or not because it doesn’t destroy damaged mitochondria unless you use the full mito protocol . You can’t tell either way based on what you did.

If you do 10 rounds of the mito protocol and it didn’t work THAT would indicate your problems aren’t mitochondrial in nature.

Edited by Kelvin, 23 February 2023 - 01:41 AM.

[Kelvin]

On Saturday I tried another round of my variation of the protocol with 5-HTP and again noticed no cognitive improvement or other cognitive changes. This might mean I have reached diminishing returns with 5-HTP.

Also, I don’t need to take as much lysine and methionine as I did before when I first started. This suggests my stem cell reserves are full or close to full despite the fact I haven’t taken the protocol for 6 months.

[Blueflash]

Thanks, Kelvin, for your input on this thread. I too have noticed less need for lysine and methionine when taking C60 lately. Also, there is less of the physical boost in the gym I experienced in the past. I have done the mito protocol several times recently, and I seem to have more energy from it.

[Kelvin]

Thanks, Kelvin, for your input on this thread. I too have noticed less need for lysine and methionine when taking C60 lately. Also, there is less of the physical boost in the gym I experienced in the past. I have done the mito protocol several times recently, and I seem to have more energy from it.

Thank you.

If we need less lysine and methionine then that means our stem cell reserves are full.

Those reserves can be full only if the stem cells are symmetrically dividing, which means Turnbuckle’s Hypothesis is probably true.

This also means how strongly or weakly we desire lysine and methionine is a proxy measurement for how frequently individuals should do the protocol. If someone doesn’t need much lysine and methionine then they probably only need to do the protocol several times once every 3 to 6 months.

Presumably someone older would need more frequent cycles because a greater percentage of their cells would be old and need replacement than someone younger. But even for the elderly they probably don’t need to do the C60 cycle constantly if they don’t feel tired without lysine and methionine.

Edited by Kelvin, 01 March 2023 - 03:44 AM.

[Empiricus]

Thank you.

If we need less lysine and methionine then that means our stem cell reserves are full.

Those reserves can be full only if the stem cells are symmetrically dividing, which means Turnbuckle’s Hypothesis is probably true.

This also means how strongly or weakly we desire lysine and methionine is a proxy measurement for how frequently individuals should do the protocol. If someone doesn’t need much lysine and methionine then they probably only need to do the protocol several times once every 3 to 6 months.

Presumably someone older would need more frequent cycles because a greater percentage of their cells would be old and need replacement than someone younger. But even for the elderly they probably don’t need to do the C60 cycle constantly if they don’t feel tired without lysine and methionine.

 

Are there any symptoms of needing more lysine and methionine?  

 

If the C60 and DHM leave me feeling mentally exhausted, could that be an indication I should take more lysine and methionine?  

[Kelvin]

When I I first tried the protocol a year ago I had to take lysine and methionine frequently or else I would get both tired and very agitated for no apparent reason. But when I took them I got better almost immediately, although I still felt a bit of a mild tiredness until the day after the 2nd fission day.

Now that (apparently) I have topped off my stem cell reserves I can go longer without them and not really feel tired, or barely feel tired.

If you are feeling exhausted that would be consistent with a lack of lysine and methionine.

So increase your intake of them and see if that works.

If symptoms don’t improve, then stop the protocol and think of maybe lowering your dose of something.

Edited by Kelvin, 03 March 2023 - 05:43 PM.

[Gern]

Just a quick update because I don’t have all the metrics I wanted to track for a full update. The summary would be:

1) After 3 months on the protocol (exactly as layed out by Turnbuckle) my epigenetic age according to one source, TruMe labs, went from 9.4 years younger than chronological to 10.6 years younger than chronological age. This could easily be within the accuracy and repeatability of the test. If it is real, I’lltake it. 1.2 years younger in three months is excellent.

2) For subjective measures, age related aches and pains are gone.

3) My endurance and walking speed are up. I felt good enough after a month to start weight training and have made excellent progress for two months.

4) My hair line has advanced, hair density is better and my hair is about two inches longer. It’s all very obvious in pictures from six months ago vs today.

5) My hearing range has increased from 8-9 KHz to 12-13 KHz. It was never great, topping at 15 Khz in my twenties. Tinnitus is still ever present.

6) My shoes are a bit tight. I blame Turnbuckle.