2523 replies to this topic

[QuestforLife]

@Ambivalent

 

If stem cell numbers fall, as they would from asymmetric division plus some natural apoptosis, then you'd get diminishing returns from continual stimulation, which is consistent with Turnbuckle's hypothesis.

 

You probably wouldn't get a 'crash' though, as somatic cells do the bulk of any required division, only being topped up by stem cells as required. Also C60 has other effects, like reducing inflammation, so this might 'hide' other delirious long term effects.

 

Mostly speculation on my part, please don't demand references!

Edited by QuestforLife, 01 August 2018 - 12:55 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I'm pretty sure I recall mentioned possibly by kmoody, that the molecule can hang around for weeks in the mitochondria. Unfortunately, I can't find the post, but I'm sure it was discussed several times, by others too.

 

On the subject of stem cell depletion. I was initially quite worried when, I believe it was you who initially speculated the possibility of stem cell depletion, of something of a shorter lived Dorian Gray effect. But there are long term users, dosing high, who have plateaued but without any spectacular drop-off. If c60 relentlessly triggered stem-cells we'd expect to witness something of a boom then bust, but it isn't not been reported by from long term users. Could there not be some homeostatic or self-regulatory response, to limit the availability of stem cells once the stem cell bank appears to be at risk of  running down? I dosed quite high in short bursts, months apart and consistently gained an initial response, which wasn't there when dosing at more regular intervals. There's is also the experience of Sensei and I believe some others to consider who received remarkable benefits at high doses - a threshold seemed to be reached where some quite astounding effects occurred, unfortunately there has been no feedback for some time on his second attempt on his high-dose protocol.

 

I wonder also, TB, if you've tried this protocol with your dogs, if they're still with us. I seem to recall there was a very positive response initially from c60, then 18 months later no effect. Maybe hav should try out this protocol to his cat who has been on the stuff for 5 years or more :-)

 

I dosed a 100 ml bottle over three days last weekend and experienced no adverse effects along with stearic acid* and some elements of your protocol. I took the steric neat or with water, but no heating involved. I've made some observations but, naturally, I'll wait longer before reporting to be certain of the effects. I will probably take stearic acid for a few more days with no c60.

 

I may decide to reduce the dosage of c60 but the dosing recommended by your protocol is quite low and would result in a bottle lasting months, are there any concerns with multiple refreezing?

 

Excellent results and as always fantastic work TB. Thanks

 

* higher dose too, but not scaled to c60oo increase.

 

 

Why do people take high doses of anything? Generally because they perceive they are not getting it done at lower doses. And why do they stop? Generally when they stop getting positive results. Sensei stopped for 2 or 3 years and then restarted at a high dose, and apart from the expected effect on alcohol tolerance from its antioxidant effects, there is nothing in his restart thread particularly suggestive of stem cell effects. That he abruptly stopped posting months ago suggests he didn't get anything useful.

 

And yes, I did worry early on about depletion. But stimulation of stem cells into asymmetric division isn't going to result in an overnight bust. Expect a slow fading over years, so slowly that you may even forget how great it seemed at first. Symmetric division brings that back.

 

BTW, I wouldn't take stearic acid neat. Given that it doesn't melt in the body, no telling how long it will take to digest.

[Turnbuckle]

i used mitoq on this protocol and maybe i should stop it.the only difference using mitoq with stemcell renewal is a lower BP while no effect on BP when done without mitoq

 

Turnbuckle:

since it is quite expensive do you think it is best to avoid mitoQ or PQQ on your protocol?

 

i also use skq1 drops and they improve my vision so i think i ll keep this anyway

 

PQQ is probably all right but I haven't used it yet with this. As for MitoQ, I'm surprised that anyone would use it after the recent evidence of its toxicity.

[ambivalent]

 

Why do people take high doses of anything? Generally because they perceive they are not getting it done at lower doses. And why do they stop? Generally when they stop getting positive results. Sensei stopped for 2 or 3 years and then restarted at a high dose, and apart from the expected effect on alcohol tolerance from its antioxidant effects, there is nothing in his restart thread particularly suggestive of stem cell effects. That he abruptly stopped posting months ago suggests he didn't get anything useful.

 

 

In Sensei's case that is probably unreasonable deduction. There was, I believe an issue cited of both initially cost and subsequently (cancer) risk at the time for discontinuation.  Sensei was by nature at times both intense and transient. I'd say his absence is too ambiguous. I may be wrong about this, but I thought his dosing was closer allometrically to Baati, just by peer-group comparison especially high. 

 

Re SA, I'm quite sure I've had a response from it neat, I guess it doesn't matter too much if dosing SA regularly, providing it is eventually digested  - but I'll try with SA, lecithin and heated water, best not deviate too much and confound matters.

 

Re stem cells - I wouldn't say there was a slow fading of (personably observed) effects unless used regularly. I'd always notice an initial hit in stamina , breathing and nootropic buzz, then little with subsequent doses until a restart months later. 

 

Perhaps some of the retained effects were due to c60's antioxidant property, such as the effect on alcohol witnessed again by Sensei (which I always found to be inconsistent).

 

 

Edited by ambivalent, 01 August 2018 - 02:35 PM.

[Graviton]

 

Why do people take high doses of anything? Generally because they perceive they are not getting it done at lower doses. And why do they stop? Generally when they stop getting positive results. Sensei stopped for 2 or 3 years and then restarted at a high dose, and apart from the expected effect on alcohol tolerance from its antioxidant effects, there is nothing in his restart thread particularly suggestive of stem cell effects. That he abruptly stopped posting months ago suggests he didn't get anything useful.

 

And yes, I did worry early on about depletion. But stimulation of stem cells into asymmetric division isn't going to result in an overnight bust. Expect a slow fading over years, so slowly that you may even forget how great it seemed at first. Symmetric division brings that back.

 

BTW, I wouldn't take stearic acid neat. Given that it doesn't melt in the body, no telling how long it will take to digest.

 

If "stimulation of stem cells into asymmetric division isn't going to result in an overnight bust"(quote), wouldn't infrequent, intermittent dosing more suitable?

 

In your protocol, you take 3mg of C60 in a successive days, but I don't remember how long you take in a series.

For example, if you take 3mg of C60 and stearic acid for 3 days, there may be more chance that it will go around for more days than taking 9mg first day. Then, it may mean that you might need to take stearic acid for extended time compared to 9mg at once because C60 could fade down more slowly.

[QuestforLife]

One thing to consider with timings and digestion - according to the Baati study, oral doses took 8 hours to peak C60 in the blood of rats. I see no reason why humans would be faster.

You would still want to lead with stearic acid to make sure fusion had occurred before stimulation, but this shows that there is merit to the three day protocol, just to increase the chances that mitochondrial fusion is coinciding with peak stimulation via C60.

[lost69]

how can i recover from this type of damage that probably occured even if i dont feel it or had worsening of general blood tests (creatinine improved although already norm range baseline)?

 

stemcell renewal protocol?N+R fission/fusion protocol with most days on fusion?high dose C60 out of these protocols?high dose N+R for a limited time out of these protocols?

 

thank you very much for your suggestions

PQQ is probably all right but I haven't used it yet with this. As for MitoQ, I'm surprised that anyone would use it after the recent evidence of its toxicity.

 

Edited by lost69, 01 August 2018 - 10:47 PM.

[aribadabar]

As for MitoQ, I'm surprised that anyone would use it after the recent evidence of its toxicity.

 

Any idea if 500 nmol/L concentration is achievable in vivo at usual supplementation doses (10-20mg/d)?

And if not, how much does it take to reach such level in humans taking it orally/sublingually?

[Empiricus]

 

BTW, I wouldn't take stearic acid neat. Given that it doesn't melt in the body, no telling how long it will take to digest.

 

 

You mean to say you've been able to get Stearic Acid to dissolve prior to consuming it?  I've tried heating it in drinks and it still floats on top, so I just chug the flakes in a glass of water.  How long do i need to heat the stuff?  I wonder if this could explain why I'm not perceiving results from fusion days.  

Edited by Empiricus, 02 August 2018 - 04:31 AM.

[Graviton]

One thing to consider with timings and digestion - according to the Baati study, oral doses took 8 hours to peak C60 in the blood of rats. I see no reason why humans would be faster.

You would still want to lead with stearic acid to make sure fusion had occurred before stimulation, but this shows that there is merit to the three day protocol, just to increase the chances that mitochondrial fusion is coinciding with peak stimulation via C60.

 

Can you point out why three day protocol is particularly better? For small dose, wouldn't you expect shorter T(max)?

How do you know when stearic acid is digested? How long does mitochondria fusion last after stearic acid is digested? This question remains unknown.

Since no data is available, even 3mg protocol may not be in a timely manner between stearic acid and C60 oo.

If you find the pharmacokinetic data of stearic acid, please share with us

 

9mg protocol

 

This protocol is based on the guess that relatively higher dosage of C60 oo has a longer T(max), and t(1/2).

 

Day 0

 

Stearic acid(around in the evening)

 

Day 1

Stearic acid(around six hours before C60 oo)

Stearic acid(around three hours before C60 oo)(smaller dose such that total amount of day is not too much)

9mg of C60 oo

 

Day 2

Stearic acid(around in the morning)

 

Please criticize this protocol for improvement. Fat digestion is largely variable depending on one's digestion system ability and meals

Edited by Graviton, 02 August 2018 - 07:18 AM.

[QuestforLife]

Any idea if 500 nmol/L concentration is achievable in vivo at usual supplementation doses (10-20mg/d)?

 

Easily.

 

20mg in 5L of blood is 4mg/L

 

The molecular weight of mitoQ is 679g/MOL

 

So that's a concentration of 5.9uM or 5891nM

 

That's 10x the level of the study. So even if only 10% of the dosed mitoQ is reaching the target tissue, you are still in the danger zone.

 

As to repairing this damage, just recycle mitochondria with Turnbuckles mito protocol (N+R). We know this will work because in the study, mitoQ caused a loss of membrane potential. 

Edited by QuestforLife, 02 August 2018 - 08:10 AM.

[QuestforLife]

Can you point out why three day protocol is particularly better? For small dose, wouldn't you expect shorter T(max)?

How do you know when stearic acid is digested? How long does mitochondria fusion last after stearic acid is digested? This question remains unknown.

Since no data is available, even 3mg protocol may not be in a timely manner between stearic acid and C60 oo.

If you find the pharmacokinetic data of stearic acid, please share with us

 

9mg protocol

 

This protocol is based on the guess that relatively higher dosage of C60 oo has a longer T(max), and t(1/2).

 

Day 0

 

Stearic acid(around in the evening)

 

Day 1

Stearic acid(around six hours before C60 oo)

Stearic acid(around three hours before C60 oo)(smaller dose such that total amount of day is not too much)

9mg of C60 oo

 

Day 2

Stearic acid(around in the morning)

 

Please criticize this protocol for improvement. Fat digestion is largely variable depending on one's digestion system ability and meals

 

When I had stearic acid shortly after a meal, it makes me tired within about 1-2 hours.

 

When I had it first thing in the morning on an empty stomach I didn't feel this, which implies to me digestion is much slower/more spread out. This might mean it is less effective, but my reasoning was that after an overnight fast I'd expect more of my mitochondria to be fused anyway.

 

Your protocol is a good idea and was what I was driving at with following the 3 day protocol - as stearic acid should be in the system and causing mito fusion for at least some of this time.

 

This is all guess work though.

 

There are lots of other ways that might be better for causing fusion. Sulphoraphane, other H2S releasers like Allicin, Statins, etc.

 

But for now it's probably better to try and keep close to Turnbuckle's protocol and gather some results, ideally using epigenetic age tests.

[Nate-2004]

 

BTW, I wouldn't take stearic acid neat. Given that it doesn't melt in the body, no telling how long it will take to digest.

 

 

I've been taking it neat because it doesn't dissolve in hot milk or water with or without cocoa or lecithin. I was never sure how you got it to dissolve so I just started taking it neat again. Why wouldn't it melt in the stomach?

[Turnbuckle]

I've been taking it neat because it doesn't dissolve in hot milk or water with or without cocoa or lecithin. I was never sure how you got it to dissolve so I just started taking it neat again. Why wouldn't it melt in the stomach?

 

Is your stomach running at a temperature greater than 156.7 °F?

[Empiricus]

Experimented with Stearic Acid in the kitchen today.  I got serious and bought lecithin and crushed the 6 capsules into a mug, then I added a little hot water.  Then I crushed them some more.  Then I added a tablespoonful of stearic acid.  (I have no idea how many grams.  Maybe 5 or 7 grams?)  And then I nuked it in the microwave for 30 seconds until it was bubbling.  And then I stirred in cocoa powder, and then I nuked it again for 20 seconds.  And then I added some milk, stirred it and nuked it.  And I continued adding milk and nuking the mixture as the mug filled up.  I also added a bit of sugar.  When I finally drank it, it seemed the stearic acid mostly had been dissolved. I would say about 95% dissolved.  

 

By the way, I felt remarkably energized after drinking this concoction.  That's how the stearic acid is supposed to make you feel, right?  Because I've almost never felt particularly energized after taking it.  Maybe it was just that I'd been consuming it undissolved and that doesn't work.  

Edited by Empiricus, 02 August 2018 - 01:28 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I recommend you buy lecithin granules/powder, and use the following from my post 377--

 

For hot chocolate, I use 10 g food-grade stearic acid, a like amount of lecithin, Hershey's unsweetened cocoa, and low cal brown sugar, stirring the dry powders before adding milk and microwaving. Lecithin is absolutely required for dispersion in hot chocolate, but not for brownies. Using a box mix that calls for 2/3 cups of oil, I cut that back to 2 tablespoons and add 120 grams of stearic acid flakes, leaving the rest of the recipe unchanged. Then I mix at room temp using a power mixer, baking according to directions, dividing it 3x4 and freezing most of it for later use. 15-20 seconds in the microwave will thaw one brownie.

 

 

 

Hot chocolate with stearic acid will typically take at least 30 seconds more than normal in the microwave due to the latent heat absorbed in melting it.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 02 August 2018 - 01:39 PM.

[Nate-2004]

Is your stomach running at a temperature greater than 156.7 °F?

 

So I boiled some water, poured it onto 10g stearic acid, not melting. Interesting. Does it have to be boiling milk? Does water not work?

[Turnbuckle]

So I boiled some water, poured it onto 10g stearic acid, not melting. Interesting. Does it have to be boiling milk? Does water not work?

 

I'm giving you an F in home ec. Now lets move on. Enough about hot chocolate. Start a new thread about it, but don't clog up this one.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 02 August 2018 - 03:05 PM.

[Tyvek]

Hi, thanks a lot for your protocol, I will start doing it, starting today with C60, stearic acid, NAC, Taurine and TUDCA

 

I'm 26 so I don't know if there will be much results, but maybe that's the best time to start it. I will report later if I get noticeable effects from it.

 

About stearic acid, I think the best way is to eat it without anything else, but chew it really well until it is fine dust fully dissolved/suspended in saliva. That way it should be absorbed really well easily.

[Turnbuckle]

Hi, thanks a lot for your protocol, I will start doing it, starting today with C60, stearic acid, NAC, Taurine and TUDCA

 

I'm 26 so I don't know if there will be much results, but maybe that's the best time to start it. I will report later if I get noticeable effects from it.

 

About stearic acid, I think the best way is to eat it without anything else, but chew it really well until it is fine dust fully dissolved/suspended in saliva. That way it should be absorbed really well easily.

 

 

Why at the age of 26 would you be interested in age regression? I really don't recommend it for someone your age unless you have some specific problem, as the long term effects are completely unknown. Spend your money on something you need.

[ambivalent]

So I boiled some water, poured it onto 10g stearic acid, not melting. Interesting. Does it have to be boiling milk? Does water not work?

 

If you add more than the amount of SA as lecithin to the hot water it'll dissolve save a waxy like coating around the edge of the container. The SA granules I use are quite fine, so I'd not reckon it hard to digest and typically I've experienced an SA response within a couple of hours. Eg taking a lot of nmn I felt rather brain foggy (possibly fission induced) for several days in a row, took some neat SA tea time and the fog lifted by the evening. Similarly during this protocol, a stimulated effect within a few hours. Turnbuckle could try and see if there is a difference as I am sure he is well calibrated to the effects - it would be less hassle to take it neat. 

 

Anyhow, I have a separate question since we're navigating uncharted waters: what hypothetical risks if any are there of having an over supply of stem-cells?

Edited by ambivalent, 02 August 2018 - 09:16 PM.

[Tyvek]

Why at the age of 26 would you be interested in age regression? I really don't recommend it for someone your age unless you have some specific problem, as the long term effects are completely unknown. Spend your money on something you need.

 

 

Well I think it would work better if you start doing it when your body still has plenty of stem cells and not too much damage to repair.

 

I think it would be nice to still look young a few more years and that since I'm starting to notice the first effects of aging, these might be reversed easily when started early, and preventing these changes in the first place is probably easier than repairing them.

 

Reports are mostly positive and nobody reported serious side effects or problems, and the rats in the study didn't get any visible problems from using it half their life, so I guess it's relatively safe.

 

There may be unknown long term side effects, but I want to try it anyway. If something goes wrong, I'll only have myself to blame

 

I also broke my back a few years ago and I had pain in my right ankle for years since an accident and I would like to see if it can make these problems better, especially the back which is pretty annoying on a daily basis

Edited by Tyvek, 02 August 2018 - 08:51 PM.

[ambivalent]

Well I think it would work better if you start doing it when your body still has plenty of stem cells and not too much damage to repair.

 

I think it would be nice to still look young a few more years and that since I'm starting to notice the first effects of aging, these might be reversed easily when started early, and preventing these changes in the first place is probably easier than repairing them.

 

Reports are mostly positive and nobody reported serious side effects or problems, and the rats in the study didn't get any visible problems from using it half their life, so I guess it's relatively safe.

 

There may be unknown long term side effects, but I want to try it anyway. If something goes wrong, I'll only have myself to blame

 

I would have to say you have the trade-off wrong here. If TB is right about the signficant reversals then there is little lost in waiting a couple of years and potentially much to be gained. We overweight the present far too much, if things were to go wrong your future-self won't be too accepting of the choice you've made. I realise how tempting it is but at your age it is worth holding back.  

[Turnbuckle]

 

Reports are mostly positive and nobody reported serious side effects or problems, and the rats in the study didn't get any visible problems from using it half their life, so I guess it's relatively safe.

 

 

 

 

This thread and the use of this protocol go all the way back to March--4 months--while you have another 60 years, hopefully. A lot can happen. And you can't go by the rats. They didn't live long enough to use up their stem cells with asymmetric proliferation, whereas many humans using C60 saw fading after a time and a return of aging. Still, give it a shot if you want and let us know. The latest protocol is in post 377, and is always updated on my profile page.

 

Taurine is not part of it, btw.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 02 August 2018 - 09:21 PM.

[Graviton]

This thread and the use of this protocol go all the way back to March--4 months--while you have another 60 years, hopefully. A lot can happen. And you can't go by the rats. They didn't live long enough to use up their stem cells with asymmetric proliferation, whereas many humans using C60 saw fading after a time and a return of aging. Still, give it a shot if you want and let us know. The latest protocol is in post 377, and is always updated on my profile page.

 

Taurine is not part of it, btw.

Do you mean that rats in Baati's study didn't die of Hayflick limit? How do you get that information?

Wasn't it that they reach out telomere shortening? but, stem cell depletion wasn't a problem for them?

Edited by Graviton, 03 August 2018 - 08:49 PM.

[Graviton]

By the way, adding lecithin with stearic acid forms some cluster like chunk. This tastes less palatable than lecithin with fatty cluster.

Adding lecithin somehow seems to reduce sticking of stearic acid, but the taste and texture is still problem.

[Turnbuckle]

By the way, adding lecithin with stearic acid forms some cluster like chunk. This tastes less palatable than lecithin with fatty cluster.

Adding lecithin somehow seems to reduce sticking of stearic acid, but the taste and texture is still problem.

 

For the nth time, use it with hot chocolate or brownies. You can even stir it into a hot cereal such as oatmeal, but the taste will not be that good.

 

Do you mean that rats in Baati's study didn't die of Halflick limit? How do you get that information?

Wasn't it that they reach out telomere shortening? but, stem cell depletion wasn't a problem for them?

 

Who dies of the Hayflick limit? Have you ever seen that on a death certificate? In any case, rats can't die from it as their telomeres are very long, enough for several lifetimes. And while the original C60 paper did not address the cause of death of the treated animals, likely it was epigenetic aging and/or cancer. Rats get cancer frequently due to their long telomeres, and they are known to age faster epigenetically than humans. Even when human DNA is inserted into a rodent, it will age faster--

 

A large-scale integrated analysis of aDMPs [ageing-associated differentially methylated positions] in six different mammals reveals a strong negative relationship between rate of change of methylation levels at aDMPs and lifespan. This relationship also holds when comparing two different dog breeds with known differences in lifespans. In an ageing cohort of aneuploid mice carrying a complete copy of human chromosome 21, aDMPs accumulate far more rapidly than is seen in human tissues, revealing that DNA methylation at aDMP sites is largely shaped by the nuclear trans-environment and represents a robust molecular readout of the ageing cellular milieu.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29452591

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 03 August 2018 - 09:29 PM.

[Graviton]

Didn't Fathi Moussa mention that no rats got cancer? 

 

Edited by Graviton, 05 August 2018 - 09:16 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Didn't Fathi Moussa mention that no rats got cancer? 

 

 

In the paper they didn't say, but when interviewed Moussa said that none of the dead C60 rats had tumors, and when asked to be more specific, said they died of old age. So not terribly informative.

[Graviton]

Alongside this protocol, what do you think of regularly taking cycloastragenol and TUDCA for stem cell maintenance? Not just in the period of the protocol, but taking them daily basis

Edited by Graviton, 07 August 2018 - 12:36 AM.