2523 replies to this topic

[lost69]

would it be ok to use high-dose Hydrogen water with c60 on this protocol?

i find i have much more power if i take them both before heavy swimming compared to c60 alone

 

Stem cell self-renewal protocol, updated

 

 

Time 0 —

Stearic acid — 10 g, in hot chocolate or brownie (Mito fusion)

 

Optional—

Mito cofactors — e.g., one cap of LEF brand “Only Trace Minerals.” This can be taken at other times, preferably with meals to avoid nausea.

 

Time 1:00 —

TUDCA — 500 mg (Mito biogenesis & stem cell self-renewal)

PQQ — 40 mg (Mitochondrial biogenesis)

Jiaogulan — 800 mg (AMPK activator, or other such products, e.g., LEF brand AMPK activator)

L-Threonine — 5 g (Stem cell nutrition)

Core brand Liposomal Glutathione — .5 g (Master antioxidant, telomere protection/lengthening, see note 1)

ALA — 300 mg (Antioxidant, stimulates stem cell proliferation)

 

Optional—

Taurine — 5 g (Stem cell nutrition)

NAC — 600 mg (Enhances glutathione, works with taurine to produce H2S — see note 2)

Rose hips —  500 mg (Another AMPK activator)

 

Time 2:00 —

C60 — 1 teaspoon of .6 mg/ml in oil, 3 mg C60 (Mito and stem cell stimulant)

Vitamin C — 2 g (Antioxidant to protect telomeres and to promote hepatocyte growth factor for satellite cells)

 

Optional—

Potassium nitrate — 300 mg (With exercise, for satellite cells — see note 3)

Gym, 2:30

And later, if feeling fatigue, L-Threonine — 5 g

 

 

L-Threonine, taurine and NAC can be mixed into fruit juice. Mix dry powders first for best dispersion of NAC. Stearic acid in brownies or hot chocolate on an empty stomach speeds up the digestion and absorption. Digestion of raw stearic acid powder or flakes (which does not melt at body temp) will likely take a long and variable amount of time. Imagine digesting candle wax.

 

Suggested schedule—Three days in a row, then a break of two or more days.

 

 

 

Notes:

 

1. Glutathione and other antioxidants maintain and potentially lengthen telomeres during self-renewal. Liposomal glutathione is more available orally, and I used Core brand Liposomal Glutathione only as it had the highest rating on Amazon. I have not tried any others.

Glutathione Regulates Telomerase Activity in 3T3 Fibroblasts

 

2. H2S is important to stem cell differentiation, while taurine + NAC creates H2S and also promote cardiovascular health.

Boosting endogenous production of vasoprotective hydrogen sulfide via supplementation with taurine and N-acetylcysteine: a novel way to promote cardiovascular health

Hydrogen Sulfide Maintains Mesenchymal Stem Cell Function and Bone Homeostasis…

 

3. Satellite cells are stem cells found in muscle tissue. They are known to proliferate given exercise, nitric oxide (NO), and hepatocyte growth factor (HGF). The optional potassium nitrate will produce NO, while Vitamin C produces HGF. This may increase muscle mass over the effects of C60/fusion alone.

Release of Hepatocyte Growth Factor from Mechanically Stretched Skeletal Muscle Satellite Cells and Role of pH and Nitric Oxide

Chemical synthesis of nitric oxide in the stomach from dietary nitrate in humans.

Stimulation of hepatocyte growth factor production by ascorbic acid

 

[Turnbuckle]

I encourage you to try that, lost. Other interesting possibilities are MitoQ and similar products. 

[Blueflash]

My question was answered in the previous post

Edited by Blueflash, 15 May 2018 - 12:20 AM.

[lost69]

I dont know if this can be interesting Anyway on day 3 without tduca, lipogsh, taurine, nac.already on mito q and kept it during protocol
A lot more energy
Very fine wrinkles plumping up like right After dermaroll and difficult to see by first 24hrs
Bad thing i lost some fission lasting effects, BPgoing up like baseline,nightsweats again but less than baseline

I encourage you to try that, lost. Other interesting possibilities are MitoQ and similar products.

Edited by lost69, 14 May 2018 - 11:34 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

As for BP, I've noticed that fission runs about ten points down on average, and fusion about ten points up.

[lost69]

forgot to mention HRV which is all trending for the better since fission and trend confirmed on this stemcell renewal protocol

 

(age 49) HRV constantly over 50, RMSSD from around 17-20 to 25-30, morning readiness constantly 10

[Andey]

forgot to mention HRV which is all trending for the better since fission and trend confirmed on this stemcell renewal protocol

 

(age 49) HRV constantly over 50, RMSSD from around 17-20 to 25-30, morning readiness constantly 10

I believe that only RMSSD is a meaningful number here. `HRV` and `morning readiness` are probably just to simplify concept for end users.

rMSSD below 30 is not that good though at least in absolute terms.

Here is graph from HRV4 training app

Beware that its based on app collected data so its definitely skewed towards the athletic population.

Edited by Andey, 15 May 2018 - 12:21 PM.

[ceridwen]

I'm on mitoQ. My blood pressure is higher than normal but still within normal range

[Turnbuckle]

I noticed on another thread where one user of the nootropic drug NSI-189 found that the effects faded after a couple of months, and even made things worse. This effect is likely similar to the fading of C60, and the failure of other psychotropic drugs after a period of use. Neurogenesis is given as a mechanism for the effect of some anti-depressants and nootropics, but the bias between asymmetric and symmetric division is sensitive to the morphological state of the mitochondria. If one were to take apigenin or NAD precursors with them so that mitochondria became fissioned, the stem cell pool could be depleted with repeated use.

 

Our model sets forth asymmetric divisions as the prevalent mode of stem cell division in the adult hippocampus. This model also implies the gradual depletion of the stem cell pool. Moreover, it predicts that excessive activation of stem cells may lead to an accelerated decrease of the pool. By contrast, symmetric divisions may prevent the decrease of the stem cell pool and even lead to an increase.

 

https://www.nature.c...598-018-21078-6

 

 

 

This may also be the case with drugs like THC. In which case taking stearic acid and upping glutathione while avoiding NAD supplements might eliminate the memory problems that some experience.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 17 May 2018 - 10:54 AM.

[Nate-2004]

There's a lot of debate about adult neurogenesis right now, on how it happens and whether it even happens at all in humans.  

 

https://www.theatlan...says-no/555026/

 

As for cannabis, the key ingredient for staving off any memory loss is CBD and in my experience of using high CBD ratio vape cartridges I enjoy on occasion confirms this compared to prior experience. Though you may have a point, as they also discovered COX inhibition does the same thing in mice. I wonder if that's related to mitochondrial dynamics in some way. I have experienced some memory issues but this has been more of a slow progression over years and from what I gather, normal for my age. It's entirely verbal recall of words, especially names of celebrities. I think practicing with recall exercises will probably help reverse whatever is going on. My mother was the same way, but didn't bother trying to reverse it. Weird though that I don't have any problems recalling number sequences.

 

I posted earlier in this thread about the effects of cannabis on mitochondria, to which I suspect if you're trying to achieve fusion and stem cell proliferation, I would avoid it. It's probably fine during fission states.

 

As a 44 year old my experience of this protocol is that I definitely think I look and feel better, but this is all subject to placebo. I do plan to continue experimenting with this next pay period when I mix more C60 with both EVOO and MCT oil, separately. I want to test each one and see if there's a difference with either. Given the lack of success Ichor had with this, I'm cautious about the EVOO.

Edited by Nate-2004, 17 May 2018 - 01:02 PM.

[orion22]

 

I noticed on another thread where one user of the nootropic drug NSI-189 found that the effects faded after a couple of months, and even made things worse. This effect is likely similar to the fading of C60, and the failure of other psychotropic drugs after a period of use. Neurogenesis is given as a mechanism for the effect of some anti-depressants and nootropics, but the bias between asymmetric and symmetric division is sensitive to the morphological state of the mitochondria. If one were to take apigenin or NAD precursors with them so that mitochondria became fissioned, the stem cell pool could be depleted with repeated use.

 

 

 

This may also be the case with drugs like THC. In which case taking stearic acid and upping glutathione while avoiding NAD supplements might eliminate the memory problems that some experience.

 

so after 3 days of the protocol you take 3 days break witch you take nad+precursor?

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

I posted earlier in this thread about the effects of cannabis on mitochondria, to which I suspect if you're trying to achieve fusion and stem cell proliferation, I would avoid it. It's probably fine during fission states.

 

 

 

You have it backwards. I'm not suggesting that you use cannabis to achieve stem cell proliferation. I'm suggesting that if you use cannabis, that you also use stearic acid to insure a fusion state. A fission state would only increase the depletion of the stem cell pool.

[Turnbuckle]

so after 3 days of the protocol you take 3 days break witch you take nad+precursor?

 

 

I'm not taking any NAD precursors these days. But then I spent a year doing the fusion/fission protocol to get rid of defective mitochondria, and fission no longer does much. And that's my suggestion: do the fission/fusion protocol until you've gotten all you can get, then do this stem cell protocol. Separately I'm suggesting that pot and antidepressants go better with fusion, at least for the stem cell pool.

[QuestforLife]

Hi Turnbuckle, are you concerned about cancer, at all?

 

After all your protocol is all about the proliferation of undifferentiated cells...Just a thought, but perhaps we should cycle this with an anti-cancer protocol.

Edited by QuestforLife, 17 May 2018 - 03:05 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Hi Turnbuckle, are you concerned about cancer, at all?

 

After all your protocol is all about the proliferation of undifferentiated cells...Just a thought, but perhaps we should cycle this with an anti-cancer protocol.

 

 

I'm not proposing that people take this continuously, only to reestablish a healthy pool of stem cells and a more youthful state. A more youthful state should make one more resistant to cancer, but I'm not adverse to an anti-cancer protocol. Do you have one to suggest?

[QuestforLife]

The usual - resveratrol or pterostilbene and curcumin. IP-6, perhaps, as I've read part of its anticancer action is forced differentiation of cancer cells (so they cannot remain malignant).

 

Many consider cancer to be the uncontrolled proliferation of undifferentiated cells, so encouraging differentiation (using fission) might well be all that is required.

Edited by QuestforLife, 17 May 2018 - 04:37 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Many consider cancer to be the uncontrolled proliferation of undifferentiated cells, so encouraging differentiation (using fission) might well be all that is required.

 

 

 

I don't know if that would work, as insofar as cancer cells might be stem cells gone rogue, encouraging differentiation with fission typically produces a new stem cell and a somatic cell. So it doesn't ever really get rid of them, though as with stem cell pools, their numbers might go into decline. It might seem counterintuitive, but at least some cancers thrive on fission--

 

Inhibition of mitochondrial fission prevents cell cycle progression in lung cancer

 

Our data identify 2 distinct and complementary abnormalities that may cause disruption of the mitochondrial network in lung adenocarcinoma cells: impaired fusion and enhanced fission. ...Notably, restoring mitochondrial networking [fusion] also reduced tumor progression in vivo.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3336787/

 

 

And again--

 

Mitochondrial Dynamics in Regulating the Unique Phenotypes of Cancer and Stem Cells.

 

Cancer and stem cells appear to share a common metabolic profile that is characterized by high utilization of glucose through aerobic glycolysis. In the presence of sufficient nutrients, this metabolic strategy provides sufficient cellular ATP while additionally providing important metabolites necessary for the biosynthetic demands of continuous cell proliferation. Recent studies indicate that this metabolic profile is dependent on genes that regulate the fusion and fission of mitochondria. High levels of mitochondrial fission activity are associated with high proliferation and invasiveness in some cancer cells and with self-renewal and resistance to differentiation in some stem cells. These observations reveal new ways in which mitochondria regulate cell physiology, through their effects on metabolism and cell signaling.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28648983

 

 

Fusion is associated with higher oxidative metabolism and ATP output. Cancer cells, however, are dependent on anaerobic glycolysis, and thus prefer fission over fusion. UCP (uncoupling proteins) decrease ATP production even further, and these can be overexpressed in cancer cells. I've previously hypothesized that C60 may be the right size to block UCP pores, which increases ATP production. Thus these two things working together--blocking UCP pores with C60 and inducing fusion with stearic acid--should produce an unhealthy environment for cancer cells.

 

the widely expressed UCP, UCP2, has been shown to be upregulated in a number of aggressive human cancers. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3179165/

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 18 May 2018 - 10:53 AM.

[QuestforLife]

If that is the case, then why does fusion promote symmetric division?

There still doesn't seem to be any consensus on how cancer forms and spreads. My intuition is that cancer cells are basically stem cells gone bad (short telomeres, aneuploid chromosomes) and that if we could force them to differentiate, they'd lose their ability to spread. But it's all just theory at this point. I'd err on the side of caution and maybe follow each cycle of stem cell renewal with some anticancer, anti proliferation supplements. It shouldn't harm the stem cells and they can differentiate as required later.

[Turnbuckle]

If that is the case, then why does fusion promote symmetric division?

There still doesn't seem to be any consensus on how cancer forms and spreads. My intuition is that cancer cells are basically stem cells gone bad (short telomeres, aneuploid chromosomes) and that if we could force them to differentiate, they'd lose their ability to spread. But it's all just theory at this point. I'd err on the side of caution and maybe follow each cycle of stem cell renewal with some anticancer, anti proliferation supplements. It shouldn't harm the stem cells and they can differentiate as required later.

 

Cancer cells may derive from stem cells or from "de-differentiated" somatic cells, but once transformed, they are no longer stem cells and don't behave like stem cells. And while the genetic and/or epigenetic changes that go into making cells cancerous are typically nuclear, they can also involve the mtDNA. Mitochondrial OXPHOS is often downgraded in cancer cells, and that gives another target for going after cancer cells, as the fission-mitophagy/fusion-biogenesis protocol should be able to eliminate many of those defective mitochondria. It's not a cure, perhaps, but it's going in the right direction.

 

A meta-analysis of many cancer-associated mtDNA mutations revealed that many cancer cell mtDNA mutations clearly inhibit OXPHOS. ...Although functional mitochondria and mtDNAs are essential for cancer cell growth and tumor genesis, mtDNA mutations and/or reductions in mtDNA copy number that alter the OXPHOS physiology are common features of cancer. This implies that alterations in mitochondrial bioenergetics and metabolism have a role in initiating and/or sustaining the transformed state.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4371788/

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 18 May 2018 - 01:25 PM.

[orion22]

i had great results with this protocol tanks ofc i can t tell if its just the c60 and pqq doing all the work since i haven t taken those for long time before the protocol

what does the fading mean if you do it once every 2-3-4 weaks you don t get any fading? after how much time of not doing it do you get the effects back?

[Turnbuckle]

i had great results with this protocol tanks ofc i can t tell if its just the c60 and pqq doing all the work since i haven t taken those for long time before the protocol

what does the fading mean if you do it once every 2-3-4 weaks you don t get any fading? after how much time of not doing it do you get the effects back?

 

 

I'm not entirely clear on what you're asking, but insofar as the effects of C60 depend on the activation of stem cells, fading will result from the depletion of the stem cell pool. How quickly that happens will depend on your diet and your stem cell baseline, but I expect most users will see fading if taking C60 alone. Once that happens you will not likely get the effects back unless you take measures such as proposed with this protocol to increase your stem cell pool via symmetric proliferation. By keeping the pool topped off (and assuming you are taking antioxidants to prevent telomere attrition), you ought not see it fade.

 

That's my thinking, anyway. Obviously I haven't taken it long enough to say how long you can go with it, but I can say I've recovered much of the initial C60 benefits from six years ago that I thought were gone forever.

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 18 May 2018 - 02:53 PM.

[QuestforLife]

Hi Turnbuckle, whilst I agree with much of what you're saying, I'd be cautious about drawing any conclusions from meta analyses of cancer mutations, simply because they may be a result rather than a cause of cancer and because they have such a dizzying variety.

I think that cancer cells do in fact behave very like stem cells - they can move around the body and spread new tissue and they both use changes on mitochondrial function to do this.

I don't have any particular reason to think your protocol would encourage cancer, other than perhaps making sure you don't keep it going too long and push stem cells into senescence and possible aneuploidy.

I tried the protocol again today after taking the week off, and this time did not suffer tiredness or hunger to the same extent (I used Threonine and some B vitamins this time in addition to the PQQ and C60), though they were still present.

[Kentavr]

Turnbuckle

All about mitochondria:
https://mitochondrialdiseasenews.com

About NAC and alcohol:
http://roguehealthan...-breast-cancer/

'Fifth Symphony' by Beethoven destroys cancer cells:
http://hyperboreanvi...stroys.html?m=1

[Kentavr]

About NAC:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/24477002/

[Kentavr]

mTOR Controls Mitochondrial Dynamics and Cell Survival via MTFP1
https://www.cell.com...2765(17)30610-X
https://www.cell.com...5920843/fx1.jpg

[Kentavr]

Previous studies had shown that Drp1 levels decline with age, at least in flies and mice. In the current study — supported by the National Institute on Aging, a division of the National Institutes of Health – UCLA researchers showed that by promoting the expression of Drp1 in middle-aged flies, cells were able to discard damaged mitochondria, keeping only the healthy mitochondria. This made the flies healthier and more energetic, while prolonging their lives.

“It’s like we took middle-aged muscle tissue and rejuvenated it to youthful muscle,” said Walker. “We actually delayed age-related health decline. And seven days of intervention was sufficient to prolong their [the flies’] lives and enhance their health.”

https://mitochondria...chers-find/?amp
Researchers found that besides Drp1, the Atg1 gene and the Mfn protein also help control the mitochondria aging mechanism. Cells need Atg1 to dispose of damaged mitochondria, while Mfn enables mitochondria to merge and promote Drp1 activity.

The team hopes its findings will spark new therapies that mimic Drp1’s effects, thereby slowing aging and delaying age-related diseases.

[Nate-2004]

 

I'm not entirely clear on what you're asking, but insofar as the effects of C60 depend on the activation of stem cells, fading will result from the depletion of the stem cell pool. How quickly that happens will depend on your diet and your stem cell baseline, but I expect most users will see fading if taking C60 alone. Once that happens you will not likely get the effects back unless you take measures such as proposed with this protocol to increase your stem cell pool via symmetric proliferation. By keeping the pool topped off (and assuming you are taking antioxidants to prevent telomere attrition), you ought not see it fade.

 

That's my thinking, anyway. Obviously I haven't taken it long enough to say how long you can go with it, but I can say I've recovered much of the initial C60 benefits from six years ago that I thought were gone forever.

 

 

Maybe I missed the links or message in a previous post but what were you taking to specifically prevent telomere attrition during this protocol? Is it just this liposomal glutathione or is there more to it than that? What about astragalus. 

Edited by Nate-2004, 18 May 2018 - 06:13 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Maybe I missed the links or message in a previous post but what were you taking to specifically prevent telomere attrition during this protocol? Is it just this liposomal glutathione or is there more to it than that? What about astragalus. 

 

 

See my post #83--I used glutathione and other antioxidants to maintain and potentially lengthen telomeres during self-renewal. Liposomal glutathione is more available orally, and I used Core brand Liposomal Glutathione as it had the highest rating on Amazon.

 

In the reference for glutathione in post #83, glutathione ups telomerase. As it took 24 hrs for telomerase to reach a maximum in that experiment, you might want to take this (liposomal) glutathione the day before in addition to the protocol as written. NAC also increases glutathione, and I recently added it back, but at a lower level than I used before as it tends to increase BP.

 

glutathione concentration parallels telomerase activity. These results underscore the main role of glutathione in the control of telomerase activity and of the cell cycle.

http://www.jbc.org/c...9/33/34332.full

 

As for astragalus, I haven't seen research that suggests it would be worthwhile. 

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 18 May 2018 - 06:52 PM.

[Nate-2004]

Ok thanks, I got the core brand now I've just gotta get more C60 from SES and start mixing. I may go with the TUDCA this time, I've used taurine in my last rounds but not the TUDCA. Will be a couple weeks before I can even really give it a go. Maybe I'll just stay in that high ATP mode you talk about till then.

[QuestforLife]

See my post #83--I used glutathione and other antioxidants to maintain and potentially lengthen telomeres during self-renewal. Liposomal glutathione is more available orally, and I used Core brand Liposomal Glutathione as it had the highest rating on Amazon.

In the reference for glutathione in post #83, glutathione ups telomerase. As it took 24 hrs for telomerase to reach a maximum in that experiment, you might want to take this (liposomal) glutathione the day before in addition to the protocol as written. NAC also increases glutathione, and I recently added it back, but at a lower level than I used before as it tends to increase BP.


As for astragalus, I haven't seen research that suggests it would be worthwhile.

Unfortunately I don't think we can rely on glutathione to up telomerase in the manner described in the paper you quote, as the cells used in that paper are immortalised mice cells. These are quite different to human cells, and while I don't doubt higher antioxidant levels will help stem cells keep the limited telomerase they have located in the nucleus where it is needed to protect telomeres, I doubt this would be sufficient to make up for the fact you're making stem cells divide.

I'm using liposomal astralgosides IV as well as antioxidants. The concentration this gives you in blood stream should be enough to significantly boost telomerase in stem cells. I'm not guaranteeing it will be enough, but telomerase activation is a hard nut to crack in humans - the other alternative might be to try HDAC inhibitors like sulphoranane, or perhaps something like resveratrol that has been shown to rejuvenate senescent cells (following the cycle). Like I said, it's tricky. Let's hope our quiescent stem cells have surplus telomeres.