2523 replies to this topic

[katzenjammer]

How do even know that this supposition by Turnbuckle is, in fact, valid? 

 

 

 

C60 stimulates mitochondria, and mitochondrial activity drives the activity of stem cells. Anecdotal reports (including my own) suggest that C60 is a powerful stimulant of stem cells, but the effect appears to fade, as if the stem cell pool is being depleted. In my opinion depletion of stem cells is second only to mitochondrial dysfunction in importance for aging.

 

 

Edited by katzenjammer, 10 March 2023 - 03:55 AM.

[Gern]

How do even know that this supposition by Turnbuckle is, in fact, valid?

I believe the key phrase is “Anecdotal reports (including my own) suggest that …” l

If you’re asking about his opinion that stem cell aging is second only to mitochondrial dysfunction as a key to aging, I suggest reading up on the stem cell theory of aging. Science has long linked stem cells to regenerative capability. It seems reasonable to suggest that the decline in stem cell populations that occur with age would results in a decline in regenerative capability of the tissues those stem cell might have replaced. This might account for many of the symptoms of aging from baldness to macular degeneration to type 2 diabetes. After all of you lose the ability to produce new cells, tissue functions have to decline as the remaining cells age and cease to function.

Edited by Gern, 10 March 2023 - 10:33 PM.

[katzenjammer]

I believe the key phrase is “Anecdotal reports (including my own) suggest that …”

 

Right, I figured that once anyone read the bolded part they'd back into that bit of language.  

 

This whole thread is based on a supposition based on anecdotal "evidence"?  

 

Then when I bring it up, my post is rated as "pointless time-wasting" - really?  

Edited by katzenjammer, 10 March 2023 - 10:25 PM.

[timedilation]

 

Just a quick update because I don’t have all the metrics I wanted to track for a full update. The summary would be:

 

Wow great results!  Can you share the source you use for the C60-OO?

[katzenjammer]

I believe the key phrase is “Anecdotal reports (including my own) suggest that …” l

If you’re asking about his opinion that stem cell aging is second only to mitochondrial dysfunction as a key to aging, I suggest reading up on the stem cell theory of aging. Science has long linked stem cells to regenerative capability. It seems reasonable to suggest that the decline in stem cell populations that occur with age would results in a decline in regenerative capability of the tissues those stem cell might have replaced. This might account for many of the symptoms of aging from baldness to macular degeneration to type 2 diabetes. After all of you lose the ability to produce new cells, tissue functions have to decline as the remaining cells age and cease to function.

 

Yes, obviously. 

 

What's not so obvious is:  Turnbuckle's assertion that "C60 is a powerful stimulant of stem cells"  -  which supposition, in turn, is based on what he calls "anecdotal reports." 

 

And which this entire thread -- and the "experimentation" it's spawning -- is based upon.  

Edited by katzenjammer, 12 March 2023 - 02:00 AM.

[Gern]

Wow great results! Can you share the source you use for the C60-OO?

Carbon 60 Olive Oil

Wow great results! Can you share the source you use for the C60-OO?

Carbon 60 Olive Oil

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Gern, Is https://carbon60oliveoil.com/ the website address for your source?

 

The webpages lists no address for the company. The phone number in the contact page is a California number (530) 801-6800, yet there is a note to contact them during a Central Time interval: "10:00 am – 5:00 pm (CST)".

 

There is no picture of the back of the bottles for their products. The backs typically will give information about place of manufacture, expiration/use-by date, and dosing instructions. If this company is your source, what information is on the back of the bottle?

[Gern]

Yes, obviously.

What's not so obvious is: Turnbuckle's assertion that "C60 is a powerful stimulant of stem cells" - which supposition, in turn, is based on what he calls "anecdotal reports."

And which this entire thread -- and the "experimentation" it's spawning -- is based upon.

I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. Read his rationale behind the protocol. Essentially we have a study that showed a 90% increase in lifespan for a group of rats given c60. The study could not be repeated so either the researchers were mistaken that they had 55 month old rats or there was another factor affecting the outcome. The idea c60 extended the life of the rats by 90% due to antioxidant effect is absurd. No antioxidant has come close to demonstrating that kind of effect.

Turnbuckles protocol is based on an attempt to explain these and other studies. However you wish to explain it, his protocol has done what he expected and reverse his epigenetic age by 28 years. It’s had a fairly obvious effect for me. Nobody’s asking you to believe his theory, or any theory or assertions for that matter. You can believe what you want.

[katzenjammer]

I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. Read his rationale behind the protocol. Essentially we have a study that showed a 90% increase in lifespan for a group of rats given c60. The study could not be repeated so either the researchers were mistaken that they had 55 month old rats or there was another factor affecting the outcome. The idea c60 extended the life of the rats by 90% due to antioxidant effect is absurd. No antioxidant has come close to demonstrating that kind of effect.

Turnbuckles protocol is based on an attempt to explain these and other studies. However you wish to explain it, his protocol has done what he expected and reverse his epigenetic age by 28 years. It’s had a fairly obvious effect for me. Nobody’s asking you to believe his theory, or any theory or assertions for that matter. You can believe what you want.

 

Who is the one arguing that it's simple?  

 

Not me. 

 

On the other hand, you seem to be suggesting that because the antioxidant theory must be wrong, Turnbuckle's supposition must be right.   

[Gern]

Who is the one arguing that it's simple?

Not me.

On the other hand, you seem to be suggesting that because the antioxidant theory must be wrong, Turnbuckle's supposition must be right.

I never claimed you were arguing it was simple. I was explaining that Tutnbuckles protocol isn’t only based on one piece of speculation as you asserted. Other facts exist to lend some support to that speculation, regardless of how thin that support may be.

I neither believe nor disbelieve the theory behind his protocol. I have simply looked up research papers he cited, and others, and read them so I understand why he thinks as he does. I lalso looked at the safety of the constituents of his protocol, and concluded the bulk of evidence says they are pretty harmless, so it was worth taking a set of metrics before and during and seeing if the results I get add support to his theories. My interest does not extend beyond that.

My interest especially does not extend to debating the merits of the protocol. I am far less equipped and/or motivated to do so than others on this forum. Moreover, I gain nothing from defending him or disparaging his protocol, so such a debate seems pointless to me and counter to the intent of the thread.

[Gern]

Gern, Is https://carbon60oliveoil.com/ the website address for your source?

The webpages lists no address for the company. The phone number in the contact page is a California number (530) 801-6800, yet there is a note to contact them during a Central Time interval: "10:00 am – 5:00 pm (CST)".

There is no picture of the back of the bottles for their products. The backs typically will give information about place of manufacture, expiration/use-by date, and dosing instructions. If this company is your source, what information is on the back of the bottle?

That is the web site. To be honest I used a different manufacturer for the first several doses then decided there were enough c60 threads on this forum that a search for the topic of which c60 manufacturer others recommended would be more sensible. After reading several threads, I picked this one because they seem to be focused on replicating the exact methodology used for the c60 in the rat trial that started the whole c60 craze.

The back of the bottle has a simple nutrient analysis, Made in Houston TX and ingredients as extra virgin olive oil and ESS60

[Empiricus]

The https://carbon60oliveoil.com/ website is one of the oldest vendors of c60oo. Several members of this forum have reported satisfaction with their products over the years.  Can't recall any particularly negative reports.  Now I believe they state on their website that their product is made in complete darkness.  Several years ago I used them for a while, but started making it on my own on account of uncertainty regarding this point.   

Edited by Empiricus, 13 March 2023 - 07:26 AM.

[eighthman]

https://www.dailymai...anks-edits.html

 

This is why I was so horrified to see Turnbuckle go.  This thing could be breaking out of the gate, credibility wise.

[renfr]

I've been using the old protocol for several months (the one with AKG, GMS, D-Ribose, Nicotinamide and PQQ), I wonder if it still can be used safely or should I switch to the latest protocol ?

 

Another issue is regarding DHM : I can't seem to find a reliable source of DHM powder, all the sources I have found seem extremely shady and unsafe, where do you people get your DHM ? 

[Empiricus]

I've been using the old protocol for several months (the one with AKG, GMS, D-Ribose, Nicotinamide and PQQ), I wonder if it still can be used safely or should I switch to the latest protocol ?

 

The mitochondria protocol is a different protocol with its own thread, not an older version of this one. Some people have been experimenting with combining the two protocols.  Also, Turnbuckle had suggested alternating between the two protocols.  

 

Another issue is regarding DHM : I can't seem to find a reliable source of DHM powder, all the sources I have found seem extremely shady and unsafe, where do you people get your DHM ? 

 

 

What makes you believe that some sources of DHM might be "unsafe"?  Because I had some unpleasant experiences possibly attributable to the DHM, your observations on this point are of interest to me. 

 

DoubleWood is a well-known brand that makes a DHM product sold on Amazon.  Last year a reviewer  claimed this product changed for the worse, however.  Nature Bell is another.  I can't say I felt great after taking either product, so I don't know whether either is alight.  I am still alive, so there's that. I agree that a lot of the DHM available on Amazon is sold by small companies of unknown reputability. 

Edited by Empiricus, 12 April 2023 - 08:52 AM.

[renfr]

The mitochondria protocol is a different protocol with its own thread, not an older version of this one. Some people have been experimenting with combining the two protocols.  Also, Turnbuckle had suggested alternating between the two protocols.  

 

 

What makes you believe that some sources of DHM might be "unsafe"?  Because I had some unpleasant experiences possibly attributable to the DHM, your observations on this point are of interest to me. 

 

DoubleWood is a well-known brand that makes a DHM product sold on Amazon.  Last year a reviewer  claimed this product changed for the worse, however.  Nature Bell is another.  I can't say I felt great after taking either product, so I don't know whether either is alight.  I am still alive, so there's that. I agree that a lot of the DHM available on Amazon is sold by small companies of unknown reputability. 

 

 

Thanks for the clarification, I was indeed trying to combine both. But I wonder if in that case PQQ should be ditched, knowing it is used both in fusion and fission I guess it could be kept.

 

As for DHM I was looking primarily for powder (for cost reasons) and the few links that appeared were some sketchy chinese vendors on Ebay selling unlabelled pouches.

 

But seems like Naturebell caps are actually less expensive per gram of DHM, thanks for the reference.

[njurkovi]

Just ordered:

https://www.amazon.c...product_details

(pretty pricey)

Previously I used:

https://www.amazon.c...e?ie=UTF8&psc=1

but now it is out of stock

[RRRocketMan]

If I've been going 24 hours between meals most of my life and and I'm mostly a carnivore, can I just keep doing that and then add the following:

 

Day 1:

 

C60 

https://dhmdepot.com...standard-bottle

https://doublewoodsu...akg-double-pack

 

Day 2:

 

https://ca.iherb.com...wE&gclsrc=aw.ds

https://doublewoodsu...akg-double-pack

 

If that's enough, can I substitute the DHM for curcumin, since curcumin is supposed to be a fusion promoter?  Just trying to come up with the barebones formula here, at least to start.

Edited by RRRocketMan, 13 April 2023 - 04:41 AM.

[Kelvin]

Thanks for the clarification, I was indeed trying to combine both. But I wonder if in that case PQQ should be ditched, knowing it is used both in fusion and fission I guess it could be kept.

As for DHM I was looking primarily for powder (for cost reasons) and the few links that appeared were some sketchy chinese vendors on Ebay selling unlabelled pouches.

But seems like Naturebell caps are actually less expensive per gram of DHM, thanks for the reference.

Naturebell is what I use for my DHM supply.

You should keep PQQ for the mitochondria protocol.

It is needed to expose epigenetically damaged mitochondria for destruction. Without PQQ the body would struggle to know where epigenetically damaged mitochondria is.

And PQQ is needed for fusion because biogenesis restores mitochondrial mass back to baseline after fission reduces your mito mass. If you don’t restore mitochondria mass back to baseline fission could excessively eliminate healthy mitochondria.

Remember that fission decreases BOTH healthy and unhealthy mitochondria by the same proportion.

Fusion, in turn, increases the mass of both healthy and damaged mitochondria by the same proportion.

If you are looking for a substance to drop then you can get rid of ribose and maybe take 500 mgs AKG only on fission days.

Edited by Kelvin, 14 April 2023 - 03:23 AM.

[Edit_XYZ]

How do even know that this supposition by Turnbuckle is, in fact, valid? 

 

Turnbuckle could answer it, were he still here. As it is, he declined to engage with aggressive trolls and left.

 

So now, you can take it or leave it. Your choice.

No further clarification available; except speculation from posters - at best, lay persons that had nothing to do with creating the protocol.

[Daniel Cooper]

Ok guys, refrain from posting information that is directly traceable to a member or former member at this time.

 

This is information that is in the public domain, but I'm going to have to circle around with the other moderators to get a decision on whether this is appropriate or not. If its deemed OK I will restore the posts.

 

 

 

 

[renfr]

Naturebell is what I use for my DHM supply.

You should keep PQQ for the mitochondria protocol.

It is needed to expose epigenetically damaged mitochondria for destruction. Without PQQ the body would struggle to know where epigenetically damaged mitochondria is.

And PQQ is needed for fusion because biogenesis restores mitochondrial mass back to baseline after fission reduces your mito mass. If you don’t restore mitochondria mass back to baseline fission could excessively eliminate healthy mitochondria.

Remember that fission decreases BOTH healthy and unhealthy mitochondria by the same proportion.

Fusion, in turn, increases the mass of both healthy and damaged mitochondria by the same proportion.

If you are looking for a substance to drop then you can get rid of ribose and maybe take 500 mgs AKG only on fission days.

Thanks, I think I will ditch D-Ribose definitely.

Does anyone have problems with D-Ribose ?

Every time I take it, I end up with severe low blood sugar symptoms (hypoglycemia) : restlessness, cold extremities, disorientation

Of course there are other aggravating factors : my low calorie diet probably has an effect on it

A single cup of coffee or alcohol unit makes the symptoms even worse if not potentially life threatening.

So I wonder if this happens only to me or if anyone had similar symptoms ? And is there a safer alternative that can be used for the fission part ?

Reading from Turnbuckle (22/09/2022), Ribose seems essential for fission :
> It's actually the higher ratio of NAD+/NADH that drives fission. This is the ratio of oxidized NAD to reduced NAD. NAD requires ribose

[Blu]

Never had any problem with D-ribose, even mixed with high quantities of coffee and alcool.

[Kelvin]

Thanks, I think I will ditch D-Ribose definitely.

Does anyone have problems with D-Ribose ?

Every time I take it, I end up with severe low blood sugar symptoms (hypoglycemia) : restlessness, cold extremities, disorientation

Of course there are other aggravating factors : my low calorie diet probably has an effect on it

A single cup of coffee or alcohol unit makes the symptoms even worse if not potentially life threatening.

So I wonder if this happens only to me or if anyone had similar symptoms ? And is there a safer alternative that can be used for the fission part ?

Reading from Turnbuckle (22/09/2022), Ribose seems essential for fission :
> It's actually the higher ratio of NAD+/NADH that drives fission. This is the ratio of oxidized NAD to reduced NAD. NAD requires ribose

If you have a negative reaction to ribose then definitely don’t use it.

If you are sensitive to sugar you could try rotating nicotinamide with NMN.
For example, for every mito cycle that had nicotinamide on the fission day, on the next mito cycle have NMN on your fission day. Just don’t take nicotinamide and NMN on the same fission day because NMN causes fusion in the brain while nicotinamide activates fission in the brain. If you use them at the same time your brain will not benefit from the protocol like the rest of your body will.

Consider adding NMN on a 1 to 1 rotating basis with nicotinamide because NMN seems to have more of a positive effect on insulin sensitivity than either NR or nicotinamide. It also reaches muscle mitochondria more easily.


https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC8550608/

Nicotinamide mononucleotide increases muscle insulin sensitivity in prediabetic women

We conducted a 10-week, randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind trial to evaluate the effect of NMN supplementation on metabolic function in postmenopausal women with prediabetes who were overweight or obese. Insulin-stimulated glucose disposal, assessed by using the hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamp, and skeletal muscle insulin signaling (phosphorylation of AKT and mTOR) increased after NMN supplementation, but did not change after placebo treatment. NMN supplementation up-regulated the expression of platelet-derived growth factor receptor β and other genes related to muscle remodeling. These results demonstrate NMN increases muscle insulin sensitivity, insulin signaling and remodeling in women with prediabetes who are overweight or obese.

[Kelvin]

3 years before I used the C60 protocol I used NMN as part of my variant of the mito protocol. I went from having pre type 2 diabetes before using the protocol to dropping my fasting blood sugar in the 87 to 92 range and now have no signs of diabetes.

Example of rotating NMN with nicotinamide -

Cycle 1

Fission Day
1 gram nicotinamide
20 mgs PQQ

Fusion Day
2 grams DHM
20 mgs PQQ


Cycle 2

Fission Day
500 to 1000 mgs NMN (using 1000 mgs of NMN routinely can get expensive, but I have found 750 mgs NMN to both work nicely for me and keep expenses on NMN somewhat in check. 500 mgs seems to work too slowly for my preferences)
20 mgs PQQ

Fusion Day
2 grams DHM
20 mgs PQQ

Then continue rotating nicotinamide and NMN on a 1 to 1 basis as shown above.

Edited by Kelvin, 28 April 2023 - 02:57 AM.

[Kelvin]

Naturebell no longer sells a pure DHM product (fortunately I still have a large stock of their original DHM in my refrigerator)

It is now mixed with other ingredients and I recommend people drop it because it isn’t known if those other ingredients will interfere with either the C60 or mito protocols.

I will switch to Double Wood’s DHM product when my supply of Naturebell DHM runs out.

[Repack Racing]

deleted  - duplicate
 

Edited by Repack Racing, 28 April 2023 - 02:32 PM.

[Repack Racing]

3 years before I used the C60 protocol I used NMN as part of my variant of the mito protocol. I went from having pre type 2 diabetes before using the protocol to dropping my fasting blood sugar in the 87 to 92 range and now have no signs of diabetes.

Example of rotating NMN with nicotinamide -

Cycle 1

Fission Day
1 gram nicotinamide
20 mgs PQQ

Fusion Day
2 grams DHM
20 mgs PQQ


Cycle 2

Fission Day
500 to 1000 mgs NMN (using 1000 mgs of NMN routinely can get expensive, but I have found 750 mgs NMN to both work nicely for me and keep expenses on NMN somewhat in check. 500 mgs seems to work too slowly for my preferences)
20 mgs PQQ

Fusion Day
2 grams DHM
20 mgs PQQ

Then continue rotating nicotinamide and NMN on a 1 to 1 basis as shown above.

 

ProHealth Longevity sells NMN as powder in a 100G pouch.  It is very affordable.  ProHealth also tested as the highest NMN content.  I just dig a spoon into the powder and wash it down with some water.
 

Edited by Repack Racing, 28 April 2023 - 02:32 PM.

[Kelvin]

ProHealth Longevity sells NMN as powder in a 100G pouch. It is very affordable. ProHealth also tested as the highest NMN content. I just dig a spoon into the powder and wash it down with some water.

Yes, the powder is often cheaper.

The problem is that I was aware there were lower quality NMN brands that had little to no actual NMN in it, and / or are diluted with filler and I couldn’t find a powder version that seemed reputable.

If someone wants NMN in powder for to save money be EXTRA sure you are getting a pure, high quality, formula because many suppliers have limited NMN in their products.

I went with Ultrahealth NMN capsules years ago because it was 3rd party tested at over 98% purity.

If Ultrahealth is unavailable I would to tend to buy NMN from a brand with a good reputation like Jarrow or Double Wood.

But I won’t be switching for a while from UltraHealth because I still have a dozen bottles of their NMN in my freezer.

By the way, you can still buy NMN easily on iHerb despite Amazon stupidly taking NMN products down because the FDA wrongly declared NMN cannot be a supplement because it was being tested as a patented drug before it was marketed as a supplement.

Of course, the patent itself is illegal (and, by extension, so is the FDA’s ruling) because NMN is a naturally occurring compound which means no company can legally patent NMN as a pharmaceutical anymore than they can patent Vitamin C as a drug.

Edited by Kelvin, 29 April 2023 - 08:58 PM.

[renfr]

If you have a negative reaction to ribose then definitely don’t use it.

If you are sensitive to sugar you could try rotating nicotinamide with NMN.
For example, for every mito cycle that had nicotinamide on the fission day, on the next mito cycle have NMN on your fission day. Just don’t take nicotinamide and NMN on the same fission day because NMN causes fusion in the brain while nicotinamide activates fission in the brain. If you use them at the same time your brain will not benefit from the protocol like the rest of your body will.

Consider adding NMN on a 1 to 1 rotating basis with nicotinamide because NMN seems to have more of a positive effect on insulin sensitivity than either NR or nicotinamide. It also reaches muscle mitochondria more easily.


https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC8550608/

Nicotinamide mononucleotide increases muscle insulin sensitivity in prediabetic women

We conducted a 10-week, randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind trial to evaluate the effect of NMN supplementation on metabolic function in postmenopausal women with prediabetes who were overweight or obese. Insulin-stimulated glucose disposal, assessed by using the hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamp, and skeletal muscle insulin signaling (phosphorylation of AKT and mTOR) increased after NMN supplementation, but did not change after placebo treatment. NMN supplementation up-regulated the expression of platelet-derived growth factor receptor β and other genes related to muscle remodeling. These results demonstrate NMN increases muscle insulin sensitivity, insulin signaling and remodeling in women with prediabetes who are overweight or obese.

 

Thanks, I looked into the possibility of using NMN instead but I ditched it due to the cost of it (living in the EU makes it difficult to get supplements at acceptable prices)

 

I went back using D-Ribose but only 500mg instead of 1000 and take it during a meal. Everything is fine so far.

 

 

Regarding the protocol, I'm surprised no one discussed the risk of homocysteine increase while taking L-methionine, am I being too cautious in this regard ? Is it canceled out by some other supplement in the stack ? 

Edited by renfr, 28 May 2023 - 07:48 PM.