2523 replies to this topic

[Kelvin]

Thanks, I looked into the possibility of using NMN instead but I ditched it due to the cost of it (living in the EU makes it difficult to get supplements at acceptable prices)

I went back using D-Ribose but only 500mg instead of 1000 and take it during a meal. Everything is fine so far.


Regarding the protocol, I'm surprised no one discussed the risk of homocysteine increase while taking L-methionine, am I being too cautious in this regard ? Is it canceled out by some other supplement in the stack ?

I recommend using NMN once every 4th or 5th cycle. That should keep cost under control while still giving you some of its benefits that I don’t believe come from nicotinamide.

Also, can you see if a good American NMN brand like Double Wood or Prohealth ship to the EU for a better price?

For homocysteine that should only be a problem if someone is taking the protocol more than once a month.

However, you make a good point because increased homocysteine is negatively correlated with cardiovascular health and longevity, and also because it is an mTor activator.

Homocysteine elevation might have been why Turnbuckle never eliminated his high blood pressure after years on the protocol.

As a precaution I would take serine with meals high in b vitamins to ensure any excess homocysteine generated by the protocol’s use of methionine is converted safely to cystathione and (best of all) glutathione, the body’s master antioxidant.

Use it a week before and a week after the C60 protocol just to make sure nothing about serine negatively reacts with rest of the protocol.

Without serine excess methionine keeps converting to homocysteine, and homocysteine converts back to methionine.

Serine breaks this logjam.

See these two videos by Longecity contributor Michael Lustargten (FYI Michael posts here on this forum under his own name) for how he reduced his homocysteine levels with serine.

https://michaellustg...tivates-mtorc1/

https://michaellustg...ysteine-test-1/

However, I don’t believe Michael needed to supplement B6 with serine because B6 in supplement form has undesirable side effects.

It is safer to get B6 from foods high high in b vitamins like vitamin fortified cereals and meat, then take serine with that food.

Don’t supplement serine on an empty stomach because it can reduce blood sugar.

The bonus is that serine is associated with lower cancer risk and extended lifespan.


https://www.mdpi.com...-6694/14/9/2199

Serine and glycine have an important role in the folate-dependent one-carbon metabolism. No prior epidemiologic study has evaluated the associations for serum levels of serine and glycine with pancreatic cancer risk. We performed a nested case-control study of 129 incident pancreatic cancer cases and 258 individually matched controls within the Shanghai Cohort Study, a prospective cohort study involving 18,244 male residents in Shanghai, China. We found that the risk of pancreatic cancer was reduced by more than 70% in individuals with elevated levels of serine and glycine in serum collected, on average, more than 10 years prior to cancer diagnosis. These novel findings support a protective role of serine and glycine against the development of pancreatic cancer in humans that might have an implication for pancreatic cancer prevention.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5343079/

Purpose of Review

Ogimi village is renowned for its aging population. We sought to determine if the l-serine content of their diet could account for their neurological health.

Recent Findings

The most frequently consumed food items, including tofu and seaweeds, are rich in the dietary amino acid l-serine. l-serine content of the Ogimi diet >8 grams/day for Ogimi women significantly exceeds the average American dietary intake of 2.5 grams/day for women >70 years old.

Summary

Our hypothesis that the high l-serine content of the Ogimi diet is related to the paucity of tangle diseases among villagers is buttressed by in vivo results with non-human primates where dietary l-serine slowed development of neurofibrillary tangles and β-amyloid plaques by up to 85% and a human clinical trial finding that l-serine at 15 grams/day twice daily slows functional decline in ALS patients. Analysis of the Ogimi diet suggests that l-serine should be evaluated for therapeutic potential as a neuroprotective agent.

Edited by Kelvin, 30 May 2023 - 12:01 AM.

[MarcD]

Turnbuckle assumed in the theory section that due to the irregular feeding (24h) of the experimental animals, mitochondrial fusion occurred when C60 was administered with the diet. 

Now, I have found a study that claims exactly the opposite: apparently, food intake after a fasting period leads to mitochondrial fission. 

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/34569666/

 

So if fasting leads to fusion and food intake after fasting leads to fission, surely we would have to ingest the C60OO some time after the fusion stack and not at the same time. 

Since the food intake led to fission in the experimental animals, we would probably have to ingest the fission stack immediately afterwards to get the same effect as in the original study, or am I wrong?

[gamesguru]

TMG is probably the best way to reduce homocysteine levels. It was advertised as a methyl donor and DNA repair[1] agent back in the day, not sure where that research stands today.

 

https://en.wikipedia...rimethylglycine

 

The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved betaine trimethylglycine (also known by the brand name Cystadane) for the treatment of homocystinuria, a disease caused by abnormally high homocysteine levels at birth.[18]

[Empiricus]

 

Turnbuckle assumed in the theory section that due to the irregular feeding (24h) of the experimental animals, mitochondrial fusion occurred when C60 was administered with the diet. 

Now, I have found a study that claims exactly the opposite: apparently, food intake after a fasting period leads to mitochondrial fission. 

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/34569666/

 

So if fasting leads to fusion and food intake after fasting leads to fission, surely we would have to ingest the C60OO some time after the fusion stack and not at the same time. 

Since the food intake led to fission in the experimental animals, we would probably have to ingest the fission stack immediately afterwards to get the same effect as in the original study, or am I wrong?

 

 

The study showed that glucose after fasting resulted in fusion.  Were the rats in the c60 experiment fed straight glucose?    

[Hebbeh]

I believe all carbs break down to glucose to be absorbed as blood sugar. Glucose is ultimately what the cells use.

[Kelvin]

Turnbuckle assumed in the theory section that due to the irregular feeding (24h) of the experimental animals, mitochondrial fusion occurred when C60 was administered with the diet.
Now, I have found a study that claims exactly the opposite: apparently, food intake after a fasting period leads to mitochondrial fission.

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/34569666/

So if fasting leads to fusion and food intake after fasting leads to fission, surely we would have to ingest the C60OO some time after the fusion stack and not at the same time.
Since the food intake led to fission in the experimental animals, we would probably have to ingest the fission stack immediately afterwards to get the same effect as in the original study, or am I wrong?

Remember the protocol does not activate fusion by diet but with fusion triggering supplements.

It does make sense to take the fusion agents a bit before C60 so the mitochondria is already in a fusion state before they interact with C60.

This is the main reason why I take dihydromyricetin and sulforaphane about 10 to 20 minutes before C60 (the other reason is that I get nauseous if I try to take all of the C60 supplements at the same time).

Edited by Kelvin, 13 June 2023 - 02:29 AM.

[Kelvin]

TMG is probably the best way to reduce homocysteine levels. It was advertised as a methyl donor and DNA repair[1] agent back in the day, not sure where that research stands today.

https://en.wikipedia...rimethylglycine

Homocysteine still will not break down safely into glutathione and cystathione without serine.

Absent serine, homocysteine will keep converting back and forth to methionine, then methionine will convert back to homocysteine. Neither of them are desirable above the minimal levels the body requires.

See the two videos I linked to by Michael Lustargten.

Vitamin B12 is also partially involved in breaking down homocysteine, but Michael had decent B12 stores yet his homocysteine kept creeping up year after year until he added serine which finally dropped his levels.

Edited by Kelvin, 13 June 2023 - 03:01 AM.

[gamesguru]

how much was needed. Would phosphatidylserine be enough?

[Kelvin]

By the way, I took a homocysteine test a week ago. My level was 8.2 which is normal for someone like me in their early 40s. This shows that my taking the protocol three times every 6 months has not spiked my homocysteine above normal parameters. Keeping homocysteine under 10 is desirable.

I am going to supplement 500 mgs serine once a week with food to keep homocysteine in check just because it correlates with a number of age related problems. I may increase the frequency if my homocysteine levels go up over the next year.

I will not use serine at the same time as the protocol in order to prevent any unexpected interactions. I will take it for a few days a week before and a week after I do 3 cycles.

Edited by Kelvin, 13 June 2023 - 03:02 AM.

[Kelvin]

how much was needed. Would phosphatidylserine be enough?

Michael lowered his homocysteine from 11.1 to 10.1 in a little over a month taking 2 grams of serine a day with 5 grams of B6 (though I suspect the B6 was unnecessary).

Homocysteine takes years to go up a point so 500 mgs serine once or twice a week with a meal that includes meat (meat has B6) should be enough to keep it in check.

150 mgs of phosphatidylserine could be added, although this is the form the brain stores serine as and I’m not sure if it would cut homocysteine (Michael only used regular serine).

Phosphatidylserine does have neuro benefits so that may make it worth using regardless of its effect on homocysteine. It is especially useful protecting memory from age related declines.

Having phospatidylserine a few hours after regular serine shouldn’t interfere with the homocysteine reducing effects of regular serine.

Edited by Kelvin, 13 June 2023 - 03:04 AM.

[gamesguru]

Homocysteine still will not break down safely into glutathione and cystathione without serine.

Absent serine, homocysteine will keep converting back and forth to methionine, then methionine will convert back to homocysteine. Neither of them are desirable above the minimal levels the body requires.

 

Any sources on this or names of the pathways involved? Afaik there are other more significant co-factors.

Attached Files

•  Homocysteine-pathway.jpg   150.04KB   0 downloads

[Kelvin]

Any sources on this or names of the pathways involved? Afaik there are other more significant co-factors.

See Michael Lustgarten’s detailed explanation of the relevant pathways in the below video at 2 minutes in.

In the video he shows Betaine/TMG is needed to convert homocysteine to methionine, but elevated methionine is negatively correlated with overall health and lifespan in studies of centenarians.

To convert homocysteine into more beneficial metabolites like glutathione (without elevating methionine) serine and vitamin B6 are required.

https://michaellustg...tivates-mtorc1/

[Kelvin]

While Michael had used betaine/TMG in the past without reducing homocysteine, he was able to reduce it from 11.1 to 10.1 by supplementing 2 grams serine for a few weeks.

That is an impressive decrease in a fairly short amount of time because it takes years for homocysteine to go up 1 point.

The only thing I disagree with is the need to supplement B6 because it, like vitamin A and potassium, is safer to consume from food sources than in Supplement form.

In a pure supplement B6 can cause side effects.

It is better to get B6 from eating meat and then having serine with the meal.

Although serine also is found in meat supplementing extra serine from a capsule is probably needed because serine in food sources is often counterbalanced by methionine, which is also in meat.

Therefore serine supplementation is necessary, but B6 is not needed if one is eating meat.

https://michaellustg...ysteine-test-1/

[nadaepeu]

How can we bring back Turnbuckle? 

[dlewis1453]

How can we bring back Turnbuckle? 

 

Maybe everyone that reads this thread should make a post thanking Turnbuckle for his research and politely asking him to return? If he gets curious and comes back to check on this thread, he will see the appreciation and maybe decide to return. 

[mhillgizmo]

I for one, really appreciate Turnbuckle and his contributions here, the valuable research he's performed and the epiage lowering effects I've personally received as a result of practicing Turnbuckles supplement protocols.  If you're still checking this thread, thank you Turnbuckle. Michael Hill

[dlewis1453]

I for one, really appreciate Turnbuckle and his contributions here, the valuable research he's performed and the epiage lowering effects I've personally received as a result of practicing Turnbuckles supplement protocols. If you're still checking this thread, thank you Turnbuckle. Michael Hill

Interesting, could you elaborate on the epi age benefits you have received? Has your epi age reduction come with tangible health benefits?

[Kelvin]

Turnbuckle wanted moderator privileges over his own threads.

But maybe he could be given some sort of moderator rights across the entire site?

Moderators here can both start their own threads and moderate them as well as moderate threads they didn’t start.

[mhillgizmo]

Great idea, I don't have a clue as to how to promote this idea, any suggestions?   To address dlewis1453's question, the subjective benefits I've noticed from doing the Stem Cell protocol 36 times, are a noticeable reduction in age appearance, I'm 70 and most people peg my age at 57-60. Quicker recovery from intense exercise, Increase in general energy levels and a reduction in joint pain. More objectively, my tested epiage went down 12 points.I'm sure I'll catch flak from saying this, but I just "feel better" at an intuitive level.  I've been an athlete my entire adult life and have learned to listen to my body and and simply "know" when I'm in a good place physically.  I can say without reservation, I have benefited from Turnbuckle's protocol.

[joesixpack]

Turnbuckle wanted moderator privileges over his own threads.

But maybe he could be given some sort of moderator rights across the entire site?

Moderators here can both start their own threads and moderate them as well as moderate threads they didn’t start.

 

I have no problem with someone moderating their own thread. It might eliminate some of the noise to bandwidth ratio. And some of the ad hominem attacks, and bickering.

 

If the moderation became too eliminatory, it could be remedied by the usual complaint protocols.

[Kelvin]

I have no problem with someone moderating their own thread. It might eliminate some of the noise to bandwidth ratio. And some of the ad hominem attacks, and bickering.

If the moderation became too eliminatory, it could be remedied by the usual complaint protocols.

Some longtime commenters were eventually granted moderator rights.

Turnbuckle has certainly been here long enough to deserve it.

Alternatively I will volunteer to be a site wide moderator.

[nadaepeu]

Some longtime commenters were eventually granted moderator rights.

Turnbuckle has certainly been here long enough to deserve it.

Alternatively I will volunteer to be a site wide moderator.

 

So how should we raise this issue to the moderators?

Edited by nadaepeu, 30 June 2023 - 09:26 AM.

[ambivalent]

Moderating your own threads is a bad idea, and longecity were right to refuse to - Turnbuckle should have seen this. It's wrong because ideas need to be challenged - we are dealing with science and health, the owner of the ideas is not the natural authority to determine whether those ideas are being fairly or unfairly challenged. 

 

Turnbuckle was supremely confident in his theories and did not always welcoming to challenge - the theads were fawning enough, adding to that by removing posters or implicitly limiting constraining those responses through the threat of thread-removal idamages the integrity of the thread and site. This is perfectly obvious and I struggle to see why few acknowledge this. Turnbuckle was not always tactful or patient and could be too quick to ad hominem himself, which again would suggest he might not have been best at moderating his own threads. 

 

I would agree with the case in point, where the poster concerned circumstances afforded leniency but perhaps too much from moderators - and indeed from myself - an alternative solution might have been required. The problem was not though solved through self-moderation, but a better execution of more nuanced moderation. 

 

Turnbuckle could have come back, this was not a persistent problem - it was quite a unique and a rare incident. The person at the heart of the storm left, and I already stated I would relent and not post on those threads if he wished. There were no mindless personal attacks from me, I would question the theory or ideas where I believed there was valid questioning.

 

Turnbuckle had agency - he didn't have to leave, and the problems would have been resolved, but he painted himself into a corner over thread-moderation when it was neither a good idea or a necessary one. 

 

There was almost a cult-like mindset, which was quite unpleasant to see, and was  clearly evident through the responses that surfaced during the fallout - and this is not what longecity is or should be about. It wouldn't have been this way 10 years ago.

 

That all said, Turnbuckle's work was excellent and potentially groundbreaking, and I don't doubt his results and those of others reported - but the science shouldn't stop nor the challenge to those theories.  

 

There would have been no long term damage with me, and if he had asked not to contribute to his threads I would have done so, but it was unnecessary - we may not always like the challenges at the time, but appreciate the importance in hindsight, I am sure he does.

 

Turnbuckle, could easily come back and all would be forgotten after a short while, but if not it would be a good idea at least to post on a blog somehwere every few months his latest thoughts or tweaks. He posted in part because he wanted others to try out his theories to see they were correct, and as should continue to fulfull in some measure, those implicit responsibilities which accompanied that protocol-adoption, which in fairness he had done so quite diligently.  

 

Personally, I believe Turnbuckle had had enough anyway - I think he believed he had reached the top of the S-curve and was just here for Q&A: I don't agree and it was a shame that he wasn't around to discuss a couple of papers which surfaced subsequently. 

 

He didn't have to quit, though, that was his choice and this should be acknowledged - he could have taken a sabbatical and stopped contributing to the threads where the mistreatment occurred. All he had to do was say I'm taking a couple of months off until this is resolved, which it would have likely occurred in absentia - rather than make open demands of longecity, which it feels - rightly or wrongly - undermined the integrity of the site. 

 

In my opinion, Turnbuckle took a non-negotiable position, which was equally non-negotiable from longecity - then it becomes about pride rather than pragmatism.There were mistakes all round including from myself - it should have been taken off thread - and it was unneccessary and unfortunate that it occurred.

 

We don't know what derivative problems occurred behind the scenes and whether they are reparable but as for the in-thread problems, they are a non-issue. I have stated my position and the other person no longer contributes. 

 

Turnbuckle's contribtions were of enormous value across the site and his departure has been a loss. If Turnbuckle wants to return he should do so and see how it goes, even if it lasts a few months, then it will contribute value to the community. 

 

[dlewis1453]

To address dlewis1453's question, the subjective benefits I've noticed from doing the Stem Cell protocol 36 times, are a noticeable reduction in age appearance, I'm 70 and most people peg my age at 57-60. Quicker recovery from intense exercise, Increase in general energy levels and a reduction in joint pain. More objectively, my tested epiage went down 12 points.I'm sure I'll catch flak from saying this, but I just "feel better" at an intuitive level.  I've been an athlete my entire adult life and have learned to listen to my body and and simply "know" when I'm in a good place physically.  I can say without reservation, I have benefited from Turnbuckle's protocol.

 

Many thanks for that response. Every anecdotal data point we can gather helps us to asses the efficacy of this protocol. Have you noticed any improvements to mental functioning, sexual functioning, hair color or density, or muscle mass? Also, any changes to lab biomarkers? Thanks! 

[Kelvin]

I just got an eye checkup for the first time in two years.

I have had myopia since I was a teenager and ability to see long distance has been decreasing, although I can still read up close well.

Over the past two years I have been doing the protocol I’ve noticed some gradual improvement in seeing at distance. For example, when walking through a parking lot I can see license plates clearer at longer distances as well as read store signs further out.

When I first tried the protocol I did notice a sharp increase in color vibrancy, but this fades after a few days. I think C60 temporarily increased how bright colors seem because it increases ATP output in the mitochondria.

But then I very slowly noticed that I could see at distance better and better. It has been gradual improvement compared to other health benefits of the protocol, apparently, because eye cells don’t need to be replaced by stem cells as frequently as other body parts do ( which is consistent with what Turnbuckle said about different body parts needing stem cells at different rates than other body parts).

When I got my eye test this Friday there was no change in the quality of my vision compared to two years ago. In fact, the doctor said my reading scores were exactly the same as two years ago and my retina was “perfect” (her words) while the rest of my eye was completely healthy.

Edited by Kelvin, 02 July 2023 - 09:20 PM.

[Kelvin]

By the way, I am willing to act as a moderator under the restrictions I laid out whether or not Turnbuckle returns.

[dlewis1453]

But then I very slowly noticed that I could see at distance better and better. It has been gradual improvement compared to other health benefits of the protocol, apparently, because eye stem cells don’t need to be replaced by stem cells as frequently as other body parts do ( which is consistent with what Turnbuckle said about different body parts needing stem cells at different rates than other body parts).

 

 

Nice result! Have you written about your benefits from the protocol before? If not, could you share? 

[Kelvin]

Yes I have written about other benefits before. You have to go back a couple pages on the thread to find them.

Edited by Kelvin, 02 July 2023 - 09:21 PM.

[coinperson]

Nice result! Have you written about your benefits from the protocol before? If not, could you share?

My eyesight has gone from 20/50 to 20/20 since I have started C60. I also don't have halo/star vision at night anymore. My wife started at -4.0 vision and has improved .25 every yearly eye exam for 5 years. She now sits at -2.75. Dunno if it will keep going, but I am hopeful.

[kurt9]

Are the two of you (Coinperson and Kelvin) doing this protocol regularly? Or are you doing it intermittently, say 3 to 5 rounds every 6 months?

Edited by kurt9, 03 July 2023 - 01:49 PM.