2572 replies to this topic

[Kelvin]

I didn't find anything first pass, which is unsurprising given the paper. Once I had the abstract however, it was trivial to find the whole paper.

 

None of your conclusions are supported by the paper. 

What is true is that if one follows their protocol, one can temporarily reduce the free tryptophan available to the brain via competition with preferred amino acids, with somewhat deleterious effects. There is no mention of down or up regulation of the receptors. It is a lack of tryptophan for synthesis, not changes to the receptors.

 

As I said multiple times, you idiot, cutting contact between neurotransmitters and their receptors causes their receptors to upregulate across the brain and body.

 

Collagen's reduction in tryptophan therefore must reduce serotonin and upregulate serotonin receptors by reducing contact between serotonin and serotonin receptors, just as shilajit upregulates serotonin by reducing serotonin.  Anyone who has noticed a cognitive boost from shilajit will notice the same cognitive benefits from taking collagen on an empty stomach 2 hours before a meal (collagen will not have this effect if you take collagen after a meal).

 

This is the exact same principle that causes beta blockers like propranolol to upregulate beta receptors:  Beta blockers prevent the contact of adrenaline with beta receptors, which in turn causes the beta receptors to upregulate.

Edited by Kelvin, 16 March 2025 - 08:55 PM.

[bullGenteel]

This is my first time joining this website after lurking a few years. I don't really have the capability to debate any science. I just experiment with some of the protocols. I experimented a little with collagen, based off Kelvin's therory. So maybe I will post my experience sometime, on your thread:Enhancing-creativity-for-artists...to see if I might get some ideas or maybe understand things a bit better.

[bullGenteel]

I appreciate the feedback I got from my inquiry into cancer concerns. I have a feeling I should have been using some cancer safeguard measures while using the c60. It may or may not be of much help now. Sounds like that's what Kelvin you did. I'd have to reread your comments.

I should have got some direction before starting out. I got a little carried away. I took about atleast 75mg of c60 spread over about 4 months. I took anywhere from roughly 9mg to 15mg over 3 to 5 days monthly for the 4 months. How bad do you think that is? I am going to do a yearly check up with my doctor. Not that that would catch some potential
problems that may be set in motion.

Reviewing this site I think I took more than 3 times the amount that other users have experimented with in same given time period.

[DyeA]

Would anyone be amenable to posting a summary of Turnbuckles protocol or pointing me to a spefic? The protocol is listed on the first page but Turnbuckle has replied numerous times and adjusted things possibly and I'm unsure that I've seen all important posts from him and others since the thread is over 85 pages. I tried to export all the pages and feed them them to chatgpt but the ai had a hard time with it. I'd love to try it but since the amount of info here is so large I don't trust myself to absorb every detail and its likely important that I do things correctly. Thanks in advance!

[DJSwarm]

As I said multiple times, you idiot, cutting contact between neurotransmitters and their receptors causes their receptors to upregulate across the brain and body.

 

Collagen's reduction in tryptophan therefore must reduce serotonin and upregulate serotonin receptors by reducing contact between serotonin and serotonin receptors, just as shilajit upregulates serotonin by reducing serotonin.  Anyone who has noticed a cognitive boost from shilajit will notice the same cognitive benefits from taking collagen on an empty stomach 2 hours before a meal (collagen will not have this effect if you take collagen after a meal).

 

This is the exact same principle that causes beta blockers like propranolol to upregulate beta receptors:  Beta blockers prevent the contact of adrenaline with beta receptors, which in turn causes the beta receptors to upregulate.

 

Errors & Misconceptions:

1. Misunderstanding of Neurotransmitter-Receptor Regulation:

   • While receptor upregulation can occur in response to reduced neurotransmitter availability or blocked receptor activity, this does not happen uniformly "across the brain and body."
   • Different receptor systems regulate themselves differently. Some receptors upregulate when their ligand is reduced, while others may downregulate or behave in a more complex manner.

2. Collagen & Serotonin Link is Misrepresented:

   • Collagen does not significantly reduce serotonin levels.
   • Collagen is rich in glycine, proline, and hydroxyproline but low in tryptophan (a precursor to serotonin). However, dietary intake of collagen does not cause significant depletion of tryptophan in a way that would meaningfully impact serotonin production in the brain.
   • The claim that collagen "reduces serotonin and upregulates serotonin receptors" is not supported by scientific evidence.

3. Incorrect Comparison to Shilajit:

   • Shilajit is a complex natural substance containing fulvic acid and other compounds.
   • While some studies suggest it may have neuroprotective effects, there is no robust evidence that shilajit upregulates serotonin receptors by reducing serotonin levels.

4. Misinterpretation of Beta-Blocker Mechanism:

   • Beta-blockers like propranolol do not "upregulate beta receptors" as a universal principle.
   • While long-term beta-blocker use can lead to beta-receptor upregulation, this is a compensatory mechanism specific to adrenergic signaling—not a general rule for all neurotransmitter systems.
   • The regulation of serotonin receptors is not analogous to beta-adrenergic receptors in this way.

Corrected Information:

• Neurotransmitter Receptor Regulation:

  • Neurotransmitter receptors can upregulate or downregulate based on chronic changes in neurotransmitter availability, but this is system-specific and does not occur uniformly across the body.

• Collagen and Serotonin:

  • Collagen does not significantly reduce serotonin levels in a way that would cause receptor upregulation.
  • The body maintains tryptophan homeostasis through multiple pathways, and minor variations in dietary tryptophan intake do not necessarily lead to serotonin depletion.

• Shilajit and Cognitive Effects:

  • Some studies suggest shilajit may support cognitive function due to its antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties, but its effects on serotonin receptor regulation remain speculative and are not well-documented.

• Beta-Blockers vs. Serotonin Regulation:

  • Beta-blockers may lead to beta-receptor upregulation over time, but this does not mean that serotonin receptors behave the same way.
  • Serotonin receptor regulation is highly complex, varying by receptor subtype, brain region, and physiological conditions.

[Garrick Peschke]

Question-

Does anyone foresee effects on Reproduction?

Context- Extremely healthy 45 year old woman. Not yet metapause, looking to do IVF.
Trying to do whatever to mitigate the 'geriatric' nature of the pregnancy.

The later stages are dominated by dna copying dynamics- 
https://www.cell.com...8674(22)00780-2

 

Which get really bad, by around 40.

If this marketing copy is to be believed-
https://www.ingenes....vices/ivf-more/
Part of that is a mitochondrial energy effect (Though they throw a whole host of things at it).
So the mito/pqq protocols seem relevant.
But I figure I should ask others, who know more. 

Would also love to know if the c60 protocols might cause harm (I don't SEE a direct benifit, but I'm open to correction).
Keep in mind, this is in the context of age 45, where IVF people give the normal odds of success at around 2%.

(We think we've got about a 1/3 shot, due to her extreme health helping out at earlier stages).
And will be looking to implement some of this on round 2, as the final hail marry.

Edited by Garrick Peschke, 22 March 2025 - 08:08 PM.

[Kelvin]

Question-

Does anyone foresee effects on Reproduction?

Context- Extremely healthy 45 year old woman. Not yet metapause, looking to do IVF.
Trying to do whatever to mitigate the 'geriatric' nature of the pregnancy.
 

 

 

For women I would strongly recommend NOT doing the C60 Protocol until AFTER they are done having children because there is no way to know if the protocol might harm the quality of ovum and/or harm the development of any fetus during pregnancy.

 

The mito protocol (the earlier version with nicotinamide, AKG, PQQ on fission days followed by a fusion day, and maybe an occasional use of fisetin on fission days to kill senescent cells) would be less problematic, and might even be beneficial for getting rid of mitochondrial and epigenetic damage across the body in addition to killing senescent cells.  But even then I would, if I were a woman, do the mito protocol at least 6 months before trying to get pregnant just to avoid the risk of the mito protocol negatively affecting the progress of the pregnancy.

Edited by Kelvin, 22 March 2025 - 11:38 PM.

[Kelvin]

It would be interesting to hear more experiences from women who have tried the C60 Protocol since most of those who have tried and comment here about the protocol seem to be men.

Edited by Kelvin, 22 March 2025 - 11:56 PM.

[Garrick Peschke]

For women I would strongly recommend NOT doing the C60 Protocol until AFTER they are done having children because there is no way to know if the protocol might harm the quality of ovum and/or harm the development of any fetus during pregnancy.

 

The mito protocol (the earlier version with nicotinamide, AKG, PQQ on fission days followed by a fusion day, and maybe an occasional use of fisetin on fission days to kill senescent cells) would be less problematic, and might even be beneficial for getting rid of mitochondrial and epigenetic damage across the body in addition to killing senescent cells.  But even then I would, if I were a woman, do the mito protocol at least 6 months before trying to get pregnant just to avoid the risk of the mito protocol negatively affecting the progress of the pregnancy.

Thanks, Kevin.

I think your advice is spot on for anyone 40 and under.

I'm glad you posted, so some 30 year old who later reads this won't make a dumb move. 
 

Still, I don't think it's well targeted as a response to my question. 

By age 45 the risk/reward profile has substantially changed.

[Kelvin]

 

Still, I don't think it's well targeted as a response to my question. 

By age 45 the risk/reward profile has substantially changed.

 

Wait until after you complete your IVF treatments and have a child to use the C60 protocol.

 

In general, women should wait until they are sure they won't have more children to try the C60 Protocol, regardless of how young or old they are when they are sure they won't have any more.

[Repack Racing]

Turnbuckle's latest publication: https://www.linkedin...ae9pE6/J7uF0g==

[Garrick Peschke]

Thank you Kevin, for your input.
This is a subject where there are a lot of protective instincts.

 Let me be a little more explicit as to why those instincts are inappropriate.

 

Age 45 means we are past the functional pregnancy range.

Doctors are giving us a 2% change of pregnancy, if we pay $20k for IVF.

The hail marry is worth it. We are going to do so. 

As part of that hail marry, we are looking to try experimental things. Which you normally shouldn't- 

Logic goes-

If experimenting with things have:
a 10% chance of elimination of the ability to get preggers,

a 10% chance of improving things,

a 80% chance of doing basically nothing,

At age 30 it's a terrible idea, but in our situation is completely worth it. 

Could we get back on track, towards answering my questions? I'm not interested in 'authority' based medical advice.

I'm after what's mechanically understood relative to the subject. I'm looking to estimate those percentages.
 

Kevin, I am currently reading your comments as coming from a protective place, as they are light on reasoning.

If you'd like to fill them out with actual argumentation, I'd appreciate it.

Regardless, it's clear you are speaking from noble instincts. Just don't let that cloud your judgement.

Edited by Garrick Peschke, 01 April 2025 - 04:38 AM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Re: post 2562

 

Garrick, you might benefit from constructing a weighted decision matrix in a spreadsheet.You can find example spreadsheet templates online or just make your own. There is a lot of subjectivity in assigning weights, but you can easily change weights over ranges that you consider to be reasonable.

[Kelvin]

Thank you Kevin, for your input.
This is a subject where there are a lot of protective instincts.

 Let me be a little more explicit as to why those instincts are inappropriate.

 

Age 45 means we are past the functional pregnancy range.

Doctors are giving us a 2% change of pregnancy, if we pay $20k for IVF.

The hail marry is worth it. We are going to do so. 

As part of that hail marry, we are looking to try experimental things. Which you normally shouldn't- 

Logic goes-

If experimenting with things have:
a 10% chance of elimination of the ability to get preggers,

a 10% chance of improving things,

a 80% chance of doing basically nothing,

At age 30 it's a terrible idea, but in our situation is completely worth it. 

Could we get back on track, towards answering my questions? I'm not interested in 'authority' based medical advice.

I'm after what's mechanically understood relative to the subject. I'm looking to estimate those percentages.
 

Kevin, I am currently reading your comments as coming from a protective place, as they are light on reasoning.

If you'd like to fill them out with actual argumentation, I'd appreciate it.

Regardless, it's clear you are speaking from noble instincts. Just don't let that cloud your judgement.

 

 

For any woman of any age trying to get pregnant, including someone at your age, I strongly recommend NOT using C60 before attempting to conceive due to unknown risks of birth defects because it is not known if C60 persists in human ovarian tissue or how C60 might affect egg quality.

 

We do know that C60 affects adult stem cell proliferation.  However, the stem cells involved in embryo development are the totipotent stem cells.  Totipotent stem cells exist only during embryo development and (uniquely among all types of stem cells) have the ability to create an entire organism, not just repair nearby tissue damage.  How totipotent stem cells would react to C60 is not known, but it is hypothetically possible it could lead to birth defects or cause miscarriage if it stimulates extra cell division among already rapidly dividing embryonic stem cells.

 

In addition, in your case I do not see a reason why C60 would increase your chances of pregnancy because the reason women's fertility declines after 30 is because the number and quality of eggs declines with age, not because of aging of the rest of the female reproductive system.  For C60 we do not know if it would increase your number of eggs or their quality, and there are hypothetical reasons to think it could cause birth defects due its unknown impact on totipotent stem cells and unfertilized ovum.

 

The best way to improve your odds of getting pregnant is to use an egg donor because donated eggs are as likely to develop into successful pregnancies as your own eggs would have naturally been in your 20s or early 30s.

Edited by Kelvin, 12 April 2025 - 08:02 PM.

[Kelvin]

For those looking to increase testosterone levels, you can increase testosterone by taking collagen on an empty stomach because (like dopamine function) testosterone levels are inversely correlated with serotonin activity - ie, upregulating serotonin receptors results in increased testosterone levels.

 

This is why shilajit (which also reduces serotonin levels) is associated with increased testosterone.

 

For those looking to increase creativity, try this experiment - after taking 1.5 to 2 grams of collagen on an empty stomach try listening to 3 pieces of music.  The first is a piece of music you don't like, the second is a piece of music you moderately like, and finally a piece of music that is among your top 10 favorites.

 

You should notice (if your serotonin receptors were at least mildly downregulated) that listening to your favorite piece of music makes you feel unusually happy, maybe even euphoric, but listening to music you dislike makes no emotional difference to you.

 

If you don't have enhanced feeling to music you like, then you probably already have serotonin receptors unregulated at an optimal level, although I suspect many in the longevity community who have been using supplements for years will notice a euphoric effect because there are far more supplements that increase serotonin (and thus downregulate serotonin receptors) than there are which reduce serotonin levels (and thus unregulate serotonin receptors).

Edited by Kelvin, 12 April 2025 - 08:00 PM.

[Kelvin]

In addition to what I mentioned before, if you have even moderately downregulated serotonin receptors then using collagen on an empty stomach (or shilajit with food) will also enhance your sense of taste and smell.  When I first used shilajit the improvement in my own sense of taste and smell (which was never too strong) was notable within a few days.

 

Enhanced emotions as well as enhanced taste and smell indicate improved function of the dopaminergic system which elevated serotonin suppresses, just as it also suppresses testosterone.

[ambivalent]

Age 45 means we are past the functional pregnancy range.

Doctors are giving us a 2% change of pregnancy, if we pay $20k for IVF.

 

 

Hello Garrick,

 

This is an account of a woman with a similar chance of pregnancy to yourself ten years ago who believed c60oo may have made the difference.

 

https://www.longecit...cy/#entry654858

 

A couple of years on (9 years ago) she reported her son at 15 months to be doing well:

 

https://www.longecit...e-3#entry760794

 

It''s been a long time but she might respond to a PM

 

There have also been a couple of accounts of menapause reversal through NAD+ repletion (via NMN) - one from Dr Sinclair and another here a while back. 

 

https://www.longecit...se/#entry917764

Edited by ambivalent, 15 April 2025 - 03:02 PM.

[Garrick Peschke]

Thanks, ambivalent!
Those are exactly the type of thing that I need to look into. Very helpful. I'll look into those things, and report back.

 

 

RE: Kevin- After 40, there are 2 bottlenecks- Oocyte Retrieval, which success of which is highly correlated with health markers(AFC, BMI AMH levels), and physician skill with the chems.
My girl will do fine on that one- she's a world class athlete that leads classes at her gym 2-3x per day and gets a sadistic thrill out of pushing gym bros in her classes that try to keep up with her till they are too exhausted to stand. 
She's exceptional for her age, on every marker. There's a reason we want her eggs- her genetics are unusual.

The second bottleneck is where the real knockout happens for over 40s- Embryo Development to blastocyst. Correlate are age, previous pregnancies, and being light on the chems in step 1. 

Looking at these protocols wasn't random-
This tech claims to have mostly cracked it (Shifting success rates from 10% to 86%), but is cost prohibitive for us

https://www.ingenes....vices/ivf-more/
(Also the administrative side of the organization was too disorganized to deal with)

It hints at the processes involved- 
Lack of energy to split/duplicate the DNA(Mito protocol). And/or the DNA being in poor shape (Health of the totipotent stem cells?/Sperm's DNA).
Anyone over 40 who isn't screening their embryos for genetic damage is screening the fetus, or actively accepting down syndrome babies (which we aren't willing to do).
Hope that puts things in perspective. You can ignore a lot of what's out there for 30 year olds. 

[Garrick Peschke]

Hello Garrick,

 

This is an account of a woman with a similar chance of pregnancy to yourself ten years ago who believed c60oo may have made the difference.

 

https://www.longecit...cy/#entry654858

 

A couple of years on (9 years ago) she reported her son at 15 months to be doing well:

Her experience aligns with c60 possibly being an effective aid for the embryo to blastocyst development stage.
She pretty much clearly states it did nothing for her retrieval numbers (single egg).
It also aligns with not needing the turnbuckle tweaks, which makes things simpler.

That answers that question for me-
I doubt the cohort size is 50 (40ish IVF girls taking c60), to even get an expected value of 'c60 has no effect', but a single baby happens anyways. 
So while I'm not going to conclude that c60 will help, I am going to assume (given the presumed low sample size) if the effect was negative that baseline 2% baby wouldn't have been born.

Which is all I'm after- if c60 has no effect, we are in no worse position.

[ambivalent]

Hello Garrick,

 

You're very welcome - that looks like sound logic.

 

A single case study can present a strong argument, especially with such improbable outcomes. Also there is plenty of supporting evidence resulting from the effects reported in the early days when C60 was very much in vogue here when it all appeared to centre on improved mitochondrial function. c60 acting as a mitcochondrial ROS sponge. There were dramatic athletic and gym improvements for many - something from your description you could attest to.

 

The effect did seem to wear of eventually for many, so bear that in mind  (perhaps, homeostasis) - which led Turnbuckle down a different path and theory - he experienced some of the most dramatic effects of c60, and reported at the time to have believed c60 to have reversed mitcohondrial statin induced damage.

 

Another note of caution several people reported tendon damage resulting from increased exercise/resistance endurance. So avoid doing too much more than normal when taking c60 would  seem to be good advice. 

 

There is a very long thread "C60 Experiments at Home" thread, which might provide some background on individual's experiences:

 

https://www.longecit...eriments-home/ 

 

 

Around 6-7 years ago I did very briefly look into ways to improvement to fertility on behalf of a friend for IVF, and have forgotten it all, as I knew nothing to begin with, but will find it and PM you, to see if it is of any use. This is one paper:

 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4590773/

 

 

Turnbuckle's Manipulating Mitcondrial Dynamics fission fusion protocol could be a consideration too. 

 

 

Chooks account is very impressive and while possibly a fluke, probably wasn't. And as you pointed out, c60 seems unlikely to have inhibited her chances, unless we were in the presence of an even greater fluke.

 

We do at least have quite strong evidence for some measure of safety over the long term for C60 since many who have taken plenty of c60 over ten years are still alive and so we know something of long term safety, as a result, but obviously missing a great deal too.  

 

Another area of interest could be fasting/ketogenic diet for its role in mitohormesis - but that would be something to research - and it could be that the short term effect of fasting could be to reduce fertility (making evolutionary sense), but have a beneficial effect post

 

(edit: found this 2009 article: https://www.newscien...le-fertility/).

 

Best of luck, Garrick. 

 

Edited by ambivalent, 18 April 2025 - 04:12 PM.

[bullGenteel]

I wasn't following this post for a while. I can imagine Kelvin and others have good cautionary warnings. I wouldn't know the science. I like to believe I'm more recovered from a concussion, where previously I imagined any family member or relatives could benefit from any of these protocols and supplement interventions. I am a bit neurotic, so I think about options but don't really follow thru on any whims, usually, so that's a good thing. 

 

I remember reading about anti-depressants decrease rem sleep in the late stage of embyo development, which made me instantly think of autism for some reason.  I'm sure rem sleep is important to certain areas of brain development.   I suppose your concerns are around taking c60 before not during pregnancy, so this wouldn't apply. 

 

I sometimes research concerns for women for a friend of mine. I was gonna mention the thread that Ambivalant found about optimizing NAD-H for fertility. Another user endorsed coQ10 for his middle aged wife. Sounds like it important for middle age but I don't know the science. 

 

I found a like third hand account that proposed that all our mitochondria are inherited by our mothers. I don't know if this is true but sounds like users think that attending to mitochondira is a safer route. I was curious also about males as well, and it said older males with more defective mitochondria have lower sperm quality. So both middle aged potential parents may want to both do the mitochondria protocol, if the artciles I read were based on any sound science.  

[SenBen]

HI!

 

I am new at Forum.

 

I tried to read Tumbuckle Fission-Fusion Protocol but it is hard for me to understand everything and there are a lot of pages so I get lost in all these information.

 

So, please, if somebody can help me and tell me:

 

 

1. Does these Tumbuckle protocol revers epigenetic age? (My goal is to revers epigenetic age of organs, especial reproductive orans as I think reproductive health is very important in woman and by prolonging menopause, one can prolong aging).

 

2. Which version of Tumbuckle fission-fusion protocol is most effective?

 

3. I am taking a lot of supplements for longevity (NMN, Lipo Fisetin, Lipo Q10, lipo Glutathione, sublingual NMN, TMG, Nasal NAD, weekly Rapamycin...) so , my question is can I incorporate some of these supplement to Fission-Fusion Protocol depending of the effects these supplements have on fission-fusion protocol days?

 

Thank you very much in advanced!

 

 

 

Turnbuckle,

[Mind]

The fission-fusion protocol is specifically focused upon improving the quality of your mitochondria. The theory is that if your mitochondria are operating in the most efficient manner possible, then most other health metrics will improve.

 

There would likely be interactions with the other supplements you take. Whenever starting a new biohacking routine, when you want to measure a change, then it is probably good to drop the other supplements while you try the new one.