14 replies to this topic

[jabowery]

I took delivery on a Dreem headband to track and possibly stimulate slow wave sleep.

 

However, as of March 23, about the time I began taking  c70 in olive oil (70% C60, 28% C70, 2% higher), my SWS, as measured by the Dreem headband, went to zero and stayed there to the present.  Prior to that I had a pretty consistent, albeit somewhat declining SWS trend.

 

The March dates, in reverse order followed by the minutes of SWS reported by the Dreem app:

 

present (4/5/2018)- 0

...

23 - 0

22 - 5

21 - 15

20 - 15

19 - 0

17 - 10

16 - 25

15 - 40

14 - 15

13 - 5

12 - 20

11 - 60

10 - 15

09 - 20

08 - 40

07 - 15

06 - 30

05 - 30

04 - 15

03 - 35

 

I was using c60 in sunflower seed oil (99.5% c60) prior to the 23rd, and went through about a gram of it.  There may have been a _very_ slight reduction in SWS.  I need to run the confidence interval on the trend prior to the 23rd.

 

Interestingly, I've not _felt_ any worse.  That's inconsistent with the build up of toxic metabolites that are cleared out by SWS.

 

An optimistic interpretation of this is that c70 is doing the job that SWS normally does so my body doesn't need it.  There is some evidence in the literature that SWS duration is regulated by need.

A not so optimistic interpretation is that c70 is doing _some_ of the job of SWS -- perhaps the toxins that make one _feel_ like one is sleep deprived, while leaving others to continue building up and doing damage.

 

The obvious pessimistic interpretation is that c70 is initiating neurodegeneration secondary to loss of SWS.

[bariotako]

You are just a LAB RAT, good luck with your futur cancer .

[jabowery]

After terminating fullerene intake on 4/5, SWS returned last night:

 

4/14 - 10 minutes SWS

 

So it took about 10 days.  We'll see if this persists.

 

I made a few other changes at the same time that I thought might have been factors in the original onset of no-SWS -- so I terminated all those as well on 4/5 so that I could get to a baseline.  If SWS returns to a relatively consistent state for about a week, I'll start adding those factors in, one by one with a week between each before resuming the c70oo.  In addition, I'll acquire pure c60 as one of those factors to see if I can reproduce the situation in which taking c60 does not impact SWS for an extended period of time, prior to reintroducing c70.  I'll report next on whether I've been able to establish a new baseline and, if so, its characteristics.

 

[Turnbuckle]

C70 (and higher fullerenes) are potentially dangerous. Unlike C60, C70 shows up in the ER, where it could interfere with protein folding--

 

The results demonstrating that C70-based fullerenes are endocytosed and localize to ER differentiate from previously published results showing that endocytosed C60-based fullerenes localize to the mitochondria and lysosomes

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20138243

 

 

I noted my own negative reaction in 2012--

 

I noticed a pain in both calves that lasted several days and a pulsing pain in the back of my neck that lasted several hours.This was after a few days of taking a dose of .25 mg twice a day. And it wasn't C60, it was a mixture of C60 & C70--about 28% C70 and 2% higher. Previously I'd used C60 @ 99.5% purity, but now I've switched to 99.95% purity, as it seems that even a small amount of higher fullerenes may prove to be a problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jabowery]

Over two months later and, despite sustained termination of any fullerenes, my SWS has not resumed.  The 4/14 event was anomalous.

At this point I'd like to hear from others who have used the Dreem headband about their experiences even if not related to fullerenes.

 

If C70 terminated my SWS, (at least SWS as reported by the Dreem headband) it certainly didn't do so in such a way as to create symptoms typical of extended SWS deprivation.  One remarkable anomaly in this regard is the fact that SWS has been reported to correlate with Human Growth Hormone release.  Conversely SWS deprivation was reported to decrease HGH release.   However, the only change subsequent to the cessation of SWS has been that my penis is noticeably larger.  This is particularly remarkable as I'm 64 years old.  This is the kind of change in a 64 year old one might expect of an increase in HGH and most definitely not the result of eliminating SWS.

Edited by jabowery, 10 June 2018 - 05:54 AM.

[jabowery]

Something else that is quite remarkable, albeit not of clinical significance, is the coincidence.

What coincidence?

 

What are the odds that, without my anticipating any interaction between fullerenes and SWS -- not even remotely -- that:

 

• My friend had intended to supply the same C60/C70 mix he had been taking for years (with no ill-effects and anecdotally pronounced health benefit at least as great as the anecdotally pronounced health deficit reported by "Turnbuckle" in Longecity).
• He ordered that mix but, due to vendor shortage, was, instead, supplied pure C60.
• The sample of fullerne-in-oil he sent me was therefore pure C60.
• I received this pure C60-in-oil AND my Dreem headband at basically the same time, after several delays over a year by the Dreem vendor.
• I had just enough of the C60-in-oil to permit me to gather a very solid SWS baseline with my new Dreem headband before needing a new supply of fullerne-in-oil -- which is what prompted me to order the C60/C70 mix originally intended.

Yes, we all know meaningless coincidences....

 

[Astroid]

>>>However, the only change subsequent to the cessation of SWS has been that my penis is noticeably larger.<<<

 

Now you have something Marketable there.

 

Talking to mature men, they all say the same thing..

Quote, "I don't care about my brain health, I want my pecker to work."  

 

PS:  L-Arginine makes Nitric Oxide.. and Viariga is basically high doses of L-Arginine.

​        Taken with L-Citrulline, at a 5 to 1 ration.. of Arginine to Citrulline.. it recycles it.. making it last instead of 30-60 minutes.. to 24-30 hours!  

[jabowery]

There is literature indicating selective deprivation of SWS results, after cessation of the deprivation, in selective increase of SWS.  This indicates that the brain has some ability to increase SWS in response to the need for it.  This may, also, indicate that the brain has some ability to decrease SWS in response to a lessened need for it and/or a signal mistaken as a lessened need for it.

There is no research on SWS and fullerenes.  However, as astrocytes play a key role in slow wave sleep, I looked for research on the interaction between fullerenes and astrocytes, and found there is some literature:

Cytotoxicity of fullerene [60], carbon nanotube, and their derivatives in V79 cells and cultured normal human astrocytes 2009 research in Japanese indicating some forms of fullerene have concentration-deependent toxic effects on astrocytes.  Although C60 is called out in the title, they do talk about a range of fullerenes including carbon nanotubes.  Unfortunately, the english translation is not available and there is only one cite of that paper -- by a paper that relates to plant tissue.

 

A less apocryphal paper (far more cites) Reversal of axonal loss and disability in a mouse model of progressive multiple sclerosis 2008 is a countervailing paper claiming "In vitro, fullerene ABS-75 protected neurons from oxidative and glutamate-induced injury and restored glutamine synthetase and glutamate transporter expression in astrocytes under inflammatory insult."  

 

Regarding "inflammatory insult": 

As the study aforelinked by turnbukle indicates, inhibition of mast cells, hence inflammation, is associated with C70 incorporation into the endoplasmic reticulum of mast cells.  

So, there is reason to believe that C70 is _both_ cytotoxic to astrocytes _and_ neuroprotective of astrocytes.

"Worrying" intelligently about such tradeoffs requires more nuance than is yet in evidence in longecity.org.

Edited by jabowery, 13 July 2018 - 03:53 PM.

[jabowery]

Substantial slow wave appeared last night for the first time in months -- nearly an hour of it, divided into 3 parts (no stimulation from the Dreem headband involved).

This is quite remarkable and it bears recording what I can remember about potentially causative changes yesterday.

The night before, I got an unusually small amount of sleep 4hr 41min.

I ate an unusually small amount of meat -- 0.

My diet included, instead, pasta la norma sauce, which I've just started canning.

I've recently started taking 40mg prednisone and and pseudoephedrine to open my eustachian tube subsequent to an ear infection.

I've been a more disciplined about upper body exercise lately.

 

Edited by jabowery, 21 August 2018 - 09:29 PM.

[jabowery]

Night temperature has been cooler recently, which is known to enhance sleep by lowering body temperature.

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

jabowery, any updates on the Dreem? I'm thinking of getting one, wondering if it's worth the money. 

[jabowery]

Mine is still working -- every night.  If you mean "worth it" in the sense of stimulating slow wave sleep -- I wouldn't know.  I don't have enough of it anymore to even trigger the stimulation.  You'll have to buy one and avoid C70 to find out.  I started a FB group but there's been no apparent interest.

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

Mine is still working -- every night.  If you mean "worth it" in the sense of stimulating slow wave sleep -- I wouldn't know.  I don't have enough of it anymore to even trigger the stimulation.  You'll have to buy one and avoid C70 to find out.  I started a FB group but there's been no apparent interest.

OK, thanks. I have basically zero slow wave sleep, due I think to something neurodegenerative. Dreem probably wouldn't help me then. 

[jabowery]

I had a slow wave sleep event substantial enough that it triggered the Dreem headband's stimulation.  This was apparently caused by intense sleep deprivation the night before.  So this adds to the evidence that slow wave sleep is triggered, at least in part, by a need for it hence, conversely, an absence of slow wave sleep may be due to either malfunction or lack of need for it.

The experience of this "lab rat" (as a prior "tough love" commenter called me in the throes of unbridled compassion) would seem to indicate a great opportunity for sleep researchers to apply C70 to animal models.

[jabowery]

The day after the event of the 2018/10/09 I had another such SWS event. 

However, almost a week later, on 2018/10/15, I had another such event but this time without any sleep deprivation.  Something else is going on.

Hopefully, one of these days, the Dreem folks will allow us to download our own data so we can perform our own statistical analyses based on factors not recorded in their app.