85 replies to this topic

[OP2040]

I can't believe there is little discussion of this here, and would like to hear what everyone thinks about it. 

 

The traditional science involved is intriguing, and mostly involves the work of Michael Levin's lab, using ion channels as an access point for regeneration.  Here's a good summary of that work, along with everything else going on at that lab:

https://ase.tufts.ed...vin/Default.htm

 

But the practical science begs many larger questions about biology, that I would also like to discuss here.  Here are some questions that could be posed.

 

1. What is the nature of the fields/gradients that hierarchically organize these ion channels and voltage potentials?

2. Are these fields agnostic to the underlying mechanisms?  In other words, does it need specifically ion channels, or

    can it utilize many different types of reactions that create useful gradients?

3. What types of interventions could potentially target fields at an upstream level in an anti-aging context?

 

Biology/anti-aging really needs something like this because it's currently stuck with lots of reductionist paradoxes, endless molecular "targets", and constantly changing, ineffective stacks (I hate that term) that Bill Gates would have trouble funding.  Physics learned the lessons of good theory early because a lot of it's subject matter is inaccessible.  And you can see the difference.  We are on the verge of quantum computing in one field, and still trying to improve grandma's "healthspan" by a couple years in the other.

 

Lets do this!
 

[Oakman]

There is much about this that makes your allusion to physics' alter ego of 'quantumland physics' thought provoking when applied to bioelectricity. Out of the box thinking will add color to this prominent, yet invisible, bioelectric life processes.  One might reasonable ask, "Does bioelectricity flow differently, or at different potentials, say, between young and old, healthy and diseased? Are some aspects of aging a result of genes affecting bioelectrical process, or do bioelectrical processes (directed by ??) affect gene expression? Can we manipulate these signalings to benefit aging?  More funding and discovery is needed.

[Oakman]

Here are some practical applications of bioelectricity that looks interesting from a company Haloneuro

 

Six must-read, peer-reviewed tDCS studies

 

tDCS =  A non-invasive way of modulating brain excitability and activity by applying continuous electric current to areas of the scalp overlaying specific parts of the brain.

 

Short-Term Effects of tDCS tDCS works by depolarizing neurons, bringing their membrane potential closer to the threshold for an action potential. In lay terms, this means that tDCS helps neurons in the stimulated brain regions fire more easily. Long-Term Effects of tDCS By depolarizing neurons, or allowing them to fire more easily, tDCS improves neuroplasticity. When paired with training, tDCS allows the brain to more efficiently create, strengthen, and organize neuronal connections — this is the process of learning, just faster.

Edited by Oakman, 26 April 2018 - 03:50 PM.

[OP2040]

Thanks Oakman, very interesting.

 

For the purposes of the thread, let me differentiate the types of bioelectricity that I have read about:

 

1. Neuronal, the kind you are referencing here.

2. Ion Channels - based on Michael Levine's work from my post.

3. Morphogenetic - these are from old school biology.  Before everything became reductionist, there was a lot of work in this area.  I believe it will make a comeback as it's becoming clear that

    genes don't do a hell of a lot more than just code for proteins.

 

There is some interesting overlap between all of them, which is why I'm wondering if nature can use more than one kind of field gradient to hold patterning memory and transmit information.

[rubegoldberg]

The Thunderbolts Project has a series of videos on The Electricity of Life from the Levin Lab (that I have not watched).
 

 

What if there is a “bioelectric code” along with the genetic code? Thanks to determined work at the Levin Lab, some ideas in biology that were culturally disbelieved are now beginning to dawn on the mainstream consciousness in academia… with surprising displays of what is possible. Electric frontiers in biology are no small matter! Explore the key new insights and medicinal pathways forward that have been revealed by a mounting literature of experiments conducted by open-minded & ambitious fellow geeks.

 

[ceridwen]

If there is I suspect mine is maladaptive to the modern world

[OP2040]

The Thunderbolts Project has a series of videos on The Electricity of Life from the Levin Lab (that I have not watched).
 

 

Great contribution, thanks.  There really isn't much material out there.  In a way that makes it even more exciting, it seems like such a new and fresh way of thinking about things.

 

The human genome project was supposed to cure all kinds of diseases.  But it's looking like it will probably only help with some diagnostics and some purely genetic diseases.  There has to be something more, and I'm convinced it's some kind of field.

 

The central dogma is basically going into the trash bin, and no one seems to be talking about it.  Talk about a quiet revolution.  Levin, in particular is very orthodox in his presentation style.  That's understandable, as he has to remain professional.  But the entire time I watch the following video, I'm thinking "don't you get the wider implications of this!"

 

https://youtu.be/uAEJ0Q2uiNM

[OP2040]

Here's a great Youtube video with a nice contrast between 4 different approaches to regenerative medicine.  In it, Dany Adams, of the Levin lab, is trying to explain the bioelectricity and it's potential application to regen medicine.

 

What I find interesting is how she struggles a little bit more than the others to articulate the possibilities of their approach.  And also, how the others seem subtly histile or skeptical.  IMO, it has a lot to do with bioelectricity being both relatively new in application, but also potentially revolutionary.  If we can get it to work, it would be the cheapest, easiest and most obvious choice for any type of regeneration. 

 

The most contentious aspect of all of this is that the biolectric experiments done so far have shown that the "central dogma" of biology is just plain wrong.  This is probably what's going to cause the most hostility to this approach.  Lets hope that the old school guardians don't hold back progress as they have in the past. 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=e0vKOYQUmgg

 

I would like to get to the point on this forum where we can start trying out some of these approaches too.  I'm getting fairly sick of all the endless discussions based on supplements.  It's very exciting that an ionic intervention has so much potential.

[rubegoldberg]

 Sep 29, 2018

 

Jerry Tennant: Healing is Voltage -- The Physics of Emotions

<

Most people have heard of the “mind/body connection” and are aware that emotions affect the way people act. However, few can describe how that works. What is relatively new is our understanding that emotions are stored in and around the body as magnetic fields. Not only do these magnetic fields cause the biochemical effects noted above, but they also block the flow of voltage in the associated muscle battery packs that provide the voltage necessary for organs to function and repair themselves. He will discuss the human body’s battery packs, wiring system, and the physics of how our electronic systems are affected by these emotions. In addition, he will discuss how other magnetic fields and scalar energy can be used to erase these emotions, leaving behind only memories that do not disrupt our health and physiology.

>

 

 

[rubegoldberg]

Jerry Tennant is considered a quack here...

 

 

The “fundamentals” of voltage quackery

[OP2040]

Yes, this looks like quackery to me.  It's unfortunate because the line between quackery and good science is very thin indeed when it comes to bioelectricity.  That;'s mostly because we just don't understand it yet. When we don't understand something, the scientific establishment often dismisses it as quackery, thus leaving a vacuum for real quackery to flourish.  But there is definitely something real there, and I'm not convinced it is just down to ion channels.  I think that is just one way of accessing the bioelectric pathway.  I don't blame Levin for pursuing it that way because it is druggable and he needs funding.  But I'm sure exogenous stimulation from a device could also be a great opportunity that won't be pursued because there would be no profit involved.

[Rocket]

Bioelectricity is very real. I'm a physicist and I can attest to its realness. There are books yet to be written on this subject. What may sound like quackery could be real. I've seen some strange things happen first hand with human bioelectricity.

[OP2040]

Would love to hear more about your experiences, Rocket.  When I say quackery, I certainly don't mean bioelectricity as a whole, just that one website.  I've long been convinced, not only that it exists, but that it's a huge missing piece of the biological puzzle.

[Rocket]

Would love to hear more about your experiences, Rocket. When I say quackery, I certainly don't mean bioelectricity as a whole, just that one website. I've long been convinced, not only that it exists, but that it's a huge missing piece of the biological puzzle.

Literally if I told you, you would think I was lying or nuts. I doubt I am very credible on this site since I know so little about chemistry and the human body. But I would at least not want to be thought of as nuts. Bioelectricity is so very real. I am no expert or even very knowledgeable on this subject. The electric force and quantum mechanics are the foundations of what we are built on when you take things to their fundamental level... Gravity and the nuclear forces after all play no role at the molecular level.

One example of bioelectricity.... Look at the effects on the brain when stimulated with certain electromagnetic frequencies.

Edited by Rocket, 11 October 2018 - 12:38 AM.

[OP2040]

Trust me Rocket, whether I believe something or not, I think self-censorship is a terrible thing.  More scientists should come out with their informed speculations on various subjects, even outside of their own specialties.  Science would advance even more rapidly if we didn't have a stifling orthodoxy hanging over everything.

 

Bioelectricity has an element of vitalism to it, it's not reductionist, and it seems to violate the "central dogma".  But the raw empirical evidence that it plays a central role i biology has been building up for years.

 

Personally, I'm more interested in the regeneration aspect than the brain aspects.  Naturally, the ionic aspect of the phenomenon now has establishment support at the Levin lab.  I fully support their research.  However I think anything that can be done with druggable ion channels and gates, can also be done with some sort of device that would only need to be purchased once.  I have an intuition based on the evidence I've read that the bioelectric signal which provides the instructions to tissues is agnostic.  In other words, whether the signal is brought about through ion channels, chemical messengers, or pulsed waves, as long as the signal is accurate it will be read and acted upon within the body. 

 

To everyone in the thread, out today and fresh off the presses is a brand new journal "Bioelectricity" published by the same people around the Levin lab that I'm always on about.  It looks like their first edition will be free, so enjoy, and most of all discuss!

 

https://www.liebertp...om/toc/bioe/1/1

[Oakman]

Literally if I told you, you would think I was lying or nuts. 

 

I'd venture 99.9% of the earth's population would think 99.9% of the forum's members are nuts. Well, maybe not nuts, but misguided crazies who think they can cheat death and disease in some way they themselves have no clue about.

 

More to the point, I'm keen to hear what you know about this topic. I think it is very interesting, and hardly researched, making it all the more mysterious. and one of the frontiers ripe for discovery.

[Phoebus]

Literally if I told you, you would think I was lying or nuts. 

 

 

well...?

 

lets hear it 

[Phoebus]

 

And other researchers have found electric signals can regulate how human stem cells migrate to repair wounds. Min Zhao, a dermatologist at the University of California, Davis, studies how electrical gradients at wounds—the same currents Reymond detected in his cut finger—direct the process of healing. These gradients guide cells toward injuries that need repair; upending the field makes them migrate away instead. Zhao’s team found that cells sense and respond to these electric fields via genetic signals. Last year, they reported that in regenerating tadpole tails, oxygen-containing chemicals that guide cells to repair wounds also help generate electricity, and electric cues trigger the production of these chemicals. “This links these two separate mechanisms to show how they work together,” Zhao says. “If you lose either one, regeneration slows down.”

 

A wound-induced electric current—triggered when cells are damaged and ions pour out—starts to flow the instant skin is cut. “It happens faster than any chemical changes,” Zhao points out. “When I first started working on this, I thought the electric field would be just another of hundreds of physical and chemical factors. But when we put all these chemical signals together and compared them, we found that the electric field’s physiological strength overrides the rest.”

 

The possibility that bioelectric signals might act as a sort of master regulator led Levin to test a provocative new idea: that electric pattern memories—not just genes—can encode and permanently alter the shape and size of an adult animal. In a 2017 publication, his team cut flatworms into small fragments and dipped them briefly in a chemical that blocks intercellular ionic currents. Some worms regenerated into two-headed animals. The fleeting exposure made a permanent change; the animals consistently produced double-headed offspring across generations. Even worms that seemed unaffected—with normal shapes, gene expression, tissues, and stem cell distribution—recalled that quick dip. When cut again, these worms generated two-headed offspring. The experiments suggest that the pattern to make a two-headed worm isn’t stored in cells or genes, but in body-wide electrical circuits.

http://www.pbs.org/w...tric-potential/

 

[Phoebus]

 

 

Defection of cells from the normally tight coordination of activity towards an anatomical structure results in cancer; it is thus no surprise that bioelectricity – a key mechanism for coordinating cell growth and patterning – is a target often implicated in cancer and metastasis.^[176][177] Indeed, it has long been known that gap junctions have a key role in carcinogenesis and progression.^{[178][179][180]} Channels can behave as oncogenes and are thus suitable as novel drug targets.^{[3][88][178][181][182][183][184][185][186][187]} Recent work in amphibian models has shown that depolarization of resting potential can trigger metastatic behavior in normal cells,^[188][189] while hyperpolarization (induced by ion channel misexpression, drugs, or light) can suppress tumorigenesis induced by expression of human oncogenes.^[190] Depolarization of resting potential appears to be a bioelectric signature by which incipient tumor sites can be detected non-invasively^[191] refinement of the bioelectric signature of cancer in biomedical contexts, as a diagnostic modality, is one of the possible applications of this field.^[176] Excitingly, the ambivalence of polarity – depolarization as marker and hyperpolarization as treatment – make it conceptually possible to derive theragnostic (portmanteau of therapeutics with diagnostics) approaches, designed to simultaneously detect and treat early tumors, in this case based on the normalization of the membrane polarization.^[190]

https://en.wikipedia...#Role_in_cancer

[Phoebus]

 

Front Physiol. 2017; 8: 627.

 

Published online 2017 Sep 4. doi:  10.3389/fphys.2017.00627

 

 

Nature's Electric Potential: A Systematic Review of the Role of Bioelectricity in Wound Healing and Regenerative Processes in Animals, Humans, and Plants

 

Sheena E. B. Tyler*

 

Abstract

 

Natural endogenous voltage gradients not only predict and correlate with growth and development but also drive wound healing and regeneration processes. This review summarizes the existing literature for the nature, sources, and transmission of information-bearing bioelectric signals involved in controlling wound healing and regeneration in animals, humans, and plants. It emerges that some bioelectric characteristics occur ubiquitously in a range of animal and plant species. However, the limits of similarities are probed to give a realistic assessment of future areas to be explored. Major gaps remain in our knowledge of the mechanistic basis for these processes, on which regenerative therapies ultimately depend. In relation to this, it is concluded that the mapping of voltage patterns and the processes generating them is a promising future research focus, to probe three aspects: the role of wound/regeneration currents in relation to morphology; the role of endogenous flux changes in driving wound healing and regeneration; and the mapping of patterns in organisms of extreme longevity, in contrast with the aberrant voltage patterns underlying impaired healing, to inform interventions aimed at restoring them.

 

[OP2040]

Good stuff Phoebus.

The wonderful thing about bioelectricity is that we could do many great experiments right in our own homes without having to pander to chemical companies or shell out tons of money.  I know the Levin lab research is still all about drugs, but I don't think it has to be.  Electricity itself is a long way from what the body can use effectively.  But if you can get it down to millivolt level, get proper placement and timing (days not hours, from the research), you could come up with something big.

 

Another thing I'm interested in is scarring and fibrosis.  I have always wondered if it is truly too late to regenerate scar tissue.  We all have scars and to me it would be a very clear way to demonstrate an experiment.  A scar is very visible, and if it's gone it's gone.  Most people would say this is impossible based on the biology, and I do think you'd have to reopen a wound or get underneath the skin.  But still a great experiment IMO.

[OP2040]

The pieces are slowly starting to come together.  It is already known the hugely significant role bioelectricity plays in the regeneration of regenerative animals.  Without nerves at the neur-epidermal junction, the regeneration will not happen.  The Levin lab showed in one of their studies that brain bioelectric signals are necessary for embryonic frog development. 

 

And now we have news that Stem cells, one of the big hitters in the Hallmarks for Aging, are also directly controlled by the nervous system:

https://phys.org/new...on-nervous.html

 

 

This is the beauty of bioelectricity.  Once it is cracked, it will be the master regulator we need for regeneration or rejuvenation.  I'm sure it will devastate the pharmaceutical industry, but I won't be losing much sleep over that!

[Phoebus]

Scientist reveal that limb amputation in frogs has immediate impact (within 30 seconds) on the bioelectric properties of the remaining symmetrical limb - a phenomenon they label "bioelectric injury mirroring" 

 

http://dev.biologist...45/19/dev164210

 

[OP2040]

Good find Phoebus.

 

One thing I'd love to see elucidated about bioelectricity is its relation to aging.   Most of the literature is on regeneration, not aging per se.  I have used the assumption that if bioelectricity could be tweaked to rejuvenate any organ, then that necessarily means it can be used to combat aging.  But I'm no longer sure that this is a logical leap that can be made.  The good news is that Levin does include aging as part of his long term research goals in some of the studies I've read.  But it's hard to get excited even about regenerating a limb, if it is happening in the context of a still aging body.

[OP2040]

The gold standard for this would be if we could do in vivo epigenetic reprogramming using bioelectricity.  I see no reason why this couldn't work, but the devil is in the details.

[Phoebus]

 

Electric bacteria have been known about for quite a while, but this is the first time they've been found in the human body. Normally, these little lightning bugs reside in lakes, soil, around hydrothermic vents and particularly in acidic environments. We've even put them to work helping us ferment cheese, yoghurt and alcohol, purify water, and make batteries.

 

Among the gut bacteria found to be electrogenic were species like Listeria monocytogenes, Clostridium perfringens, Enterococcus faecalis, streptococcus and Lactobacilli. This motley crew is mostly pathogenic, responsible for food-borne illnesses, diarrhea, gangrene, hospital-acquired infections and even miscarriages. Lactobacilli, meanwhile, is a probiotic, often found in yogurt.

"The fact that so many bugs that interact with humans, either as pathogens or in probiotics or in our microbiota or involved in fermentation of human products, are electrogenic – that had been missed before," says Dan Portnoy, an author of the study. "It could tell us a lot about how these bacteria infect us or help us have a healthy gut."

 

But it's not just a matter of finding new tricks in old bacteria – these species were found to use a completely different mechanism to previously-known electrogenic bacteria. Electrons produced in cells through metabolism need to be removed, and while we air-breathing creatures use our friend oxygen, electrogenic bacteria have developed a way to "breathe" minerals like iron or manganese. A series of chemical reactions use those minerals to carry electrons out of the cells, which takes the form of a tiny electrical current.The electric gut bacteria have been found to use a much simpler "electron transfer chain" than others. Instead of iron or oxygen, these bacteria seem to be able to use flavin molecules – derivatives of vitamin B2 – when they are plentiful in the environment around them. And it's only been seen so far in gram-positive bacteria – those with a single cell wall – which should make electron transfer easier than in species with two cell walls.

"It seems that the cell structure of these bacteria and the vitamin-rich ecological niche that they occupy makes it significantly easier and more cost effective to transfer electrons out of the cell," saysSam Light, first author of the study. "Thus, we think that the conventionally studied mineral-respiring bacteria are using extracellular electron transfer because it is crucial for survival, whereas these newly identified bacteria are using it because it is 'easy.'"

Using an electrode, the team measured the strength of the electric current that these bacteria produce, and found it to be up to 500 microamps. That puts them on an equal footing with other known electrogenic bacteria.

The discovery could lead to new ways to manipulate gut bacteria to improve our health or fight disease – or just make tastier cheese or yogurt.

https://newatlas.com...n the human gut

[OP2040]

Good one Phoebus.  All the literature produced in the same vein as the Levin lab shows that he action takes place at the millivolt level.   I'm not sure how that compares with microamps but as a general rule we are talking very small amounts and longer duration's of time when it comes to biolectric action.  I think the latter is one of the reasons there have not been many amazing discoveries.  An bioelectric intervention would have to be constant over the course of days or weeks.  Of course the other reason is that it would not be easy to profit from, though they are trying now with implantable electroceuticals.

 

Here's a good article that sounds a bit popsci, but has good information in it:

http://discovermagaz...dose-of-quantum

 

 

Turin, who also happens to be one of the world’s leading perfume experts, was inspired by a vibrational theory of smell first proposed by chemist Malcolm Dyson in 1938. After Turin first caught scent of Dyson’s idea in the 1990s, he started looking for molecules that would allow him to test the theory. He hit upon sulfur compounds, which have a unique odor and a characteristic molecular vibration. Turin then needed to identify a completely unrelated compound — one with a different molecular shape than sulfur but possessing the same vibrational frequency — to see if it would smell anything like sulfur. Eventually, he found one, a molecule containing boron. And sure enough, it reeked of sulfur. “That’s when the penny dropped,” he says. “I thought, ‘This cannot be a coincidence.’ ”

 

 

This is very interesting!! A lot of the article is about smell and how the old "lock and key" idea is being superseded by a vibrational theory.  This very much parallels what should be happening in the rest of molecular biology.  After all, the "lock and key"  really cannot explain the complex interactions of a biological organism.  There has to be an overarching mechanism that can exert control and distribute information broadly.  Bioelectricity fits the bill quite nicely.  If this is true, then the raw material inputs (genes and proteins) are merely raw material for a top-down informational process.  Levin's team has already shown how some of the most regenerative animals have genomes that are completely scrambled, yet they can pattern new limbs with no problem at all.  This shows that all you need is the raw materials, and the actual pattern growth, regeneration, etc. is a top-down process imposed on said molecular mess,

[Oakman]

Microamps is a measure of current (i.e., electron) flow.

Millivolts is a measure of difference of electric potential between two points.

 

In order for electrons to flow (eg. xx microamps), there needs to be a potential difference, (eg. xx millivolts) between two points.

 

[OP2040]

Thanks Oakman, that makes sense.  But it also begs the question.  Does a millivolt potential translate to a microamp flow?  A quick google search shows that 1 Millivolt/Ohm converts to 1000 microamperes, The reason I'm interested is because I'm used to reading about the potentials, not the flow.  And it's also been noted that the electricity we often use in everyday situations is much too powerful for any of this.  So it looks like 500 microamps is in a range that makes biological sense.

[dalack]

Looks like they are making progress. 

 

https://www.genengne...ation-in-frogs/