85 replies to this topic

[p75213]

David LaPoint, who I believe is a physicist, has designed a machine called a primercube. It puts out a magnetic field which he calls a primerfield. Everything is open sourced so if you have the technical know how there is nothing stopping you from making 1 or 1,000. According to his website its many health benefits can be attributed to bioelectricity: https://primercube.org/how-it-works.

 

For those who do not have the technical know how a czechoslavakian company is selling them for 1,000 euro: https://www.primercube.eu/en/

Edited by p75213, 09 October 2020 - 10:56 AM.

[MidwestGreg]

David LaPoint, who I believe is a physicist, has designed a machine called a primercube. It puts out a magnetic field which he calls a primerfield. Everything is open sourced so if you have the technical know how there is nothing stopping you from making 1 or 1,000. According to his website its many health benefits can be attributed to bioelectricity: https://primercube.org/how-it-works.

 

For those who do not have the technical know how a czechoslavakian company is selling them for 1,000 euro: https://www.primercube.eu/en/

 

Has anyone tried this and have results to report?  Seems a bit pricey to try out on a whim, although I may try building one.

[adamh]

The primer cube appears to be just a bunch of rotating magnets. 1000 euros seems grossly high priced. Where is the evidence that moving magnetic fields will cure anyone? I've seen quack devices for decades using magnets and none have proven themselves. Why not just buy a magnet and move it around your body? 

 

Bioelectricity sounds interesting. But if it was just a matter of putting a small current into the body it would be used already. Actually, I have heard of electricity used to speed bone healing but that is far short of what we are talking about here. I suspect drugs will play a role, perhaps in making the tissues you want to repair ready to regenerate and then a small current is used to get the ball rolling?

 

Acupuncturists have used electricity for many years, they use a system of "meridians" which are channels through the body. They stimulate these channels with pressure, needles, heat, or sometimes electricity. I had a session today, its the only thing that helps my back. Doctors just want to give you a pain drug or say take ibu or something.

 

It may be that acupuncture is very closely related to bioelectricity. The meridians they speak of do not show up in an x ray or autopsy but they can treat pain and many conditions so there has to be something to it. Maybe the needle creates a small electrical current? All it takes is dissimilar metals. The needle is metal and may react with tissues. Just a possibility. Since pressure on certain points or heat can do it, it may be that electricity is produced on the microscopic level when this is done.

 

A moving magnetic field does generate electricity in a conductor. However, will this stimulate regeneration when ordinary electricity does not seem to do it? You could use an electromagnet just as easily. There is much to learn right now

 

[Mind]

The primer cube appears to be just a bunch of rotating magnets. 1000 euros seems grossly high priced. Where is the evidence that moving magnetic fields will cure anyone? I've seen quack devices for decades using magnets and none have proven themselves. Why not just buy a magnet and move it around your body? 

 

Bioelectricity sounds interesting. But if it was just a matter of putting a small current into the body it would be used already. Actually, I have heard of electricity used to speed bone healing but that is far short of what we are talking about here. I suspect drugs will play a role, perhaps in making the tissues you want to repair ready to regenerate and then a small current is used to get the ball rolling?

 

Acupuncturists have used electricity for many years, they use a system of "meridians" which are channels through the body. They stimulate these channels with pressure, needles, heat, or sometimes electricity. I had a session today, its the only thing that helps my back. Doctors just want to give you a pain drug or say take ibu or something.

 

It may be that acupuncture is very closely related to bioelectricity. The meridians they speak of do not show up in an x ray or autopsy but they can treat pain and many conditions so there has to be something to it. Maybe the needle creates a small electrical current? All it takes is dissimilar metals. The needle is metal and may react with tissues. Just a possibility. Since pressure on certain points or heat can do it, it may be that electricity is produced on the microscopic level when this is done.

 

A moving magnetic field does generate electricity in a conductor. However, will this stimulate regeneration when ordinary electricity does not seem to do it? You could use an electromagnet just as easily. There is much to learn right now

 

You are right that just randomly moving magnets over parts of the body is not likely to produce statistically relevant improvements in health. However, don't confuse that with what Levin's lab is doing. Levin is trying to discover the inherent intercellular "electrical" programming that controls the development and healing of the body and organs. That is why he is looking to add specialists in network/systems analysis and programming, instead of people who can put a bunch of magnets together.

[adamh]

You are right that just randomly moving magnets over parts of the body is not likely to produce statistically relevant improvements in health. However, don't confuse that with what Levin's lab is doing. Levin is trying to discover the inherent intercellular "electrical" programming that controls the development and healing of the body and organs. That is why he is looking to add specialists in network/systems analysis and programming, instead of people who can put a bunch of magnets together.

Well, they say to use the device about 9" away I think they said but said it will work up against the body or as much as 3' away. Magnetic fields drop off very sharply, especially for small magnets. The field would be strong right at the machine, much weaker at 9 inches and imperceptible except for a sensitive instrument at 3 feet. 

 

Is it the rate of spin that makes a difference between this and the many random magnetic fields we are likely to encounter during the day including weak ones? Since its spinning, its not like each magnet is aligned with a certain part of the body. I read the part about how to build one and I probably missed a link to something but it seemed like extremely vague instructions. All I see is a hemisphere with some magnets stuck to the inside and a motor to rotate it

 

I'll grant you that he is working on it, trying to find the right way to do it but this device sounds more and more like quackery. Maybe he slapped this together to make money to fund the real research? 

 

Here is a quote 

"The PrimerCube produces a rotating magnetic field that no other device currently available is capable of producing. In our research, the unique field emitted by this device provides health benefits offered by no other known technology"

 

In what way is this unique? No other device is "capable" of producing this field? 

 

"The PrimerCube contains a patented magnetic array. Our research indicates that this magnetic array creates a uniquely structured ionic field. This ionic field produces unparalleled health benefits"

 

"ionic field"?? what on earth does that mean? I even did a search on that term and it seems to be meaningless. Magnetic fields do not ionize as far as I'm aware. And the "patented magnetic array" does that mean the order in which they placed the magnets does the trick?

 

I'm sorry but this device, or at least the way they explain it reeks of scam. It puts up more red flags than a chinese communist party meeting. An nmr, nuclear magnetic resonance machine creates much more powerful fields than any magnet you can buy over the counter. I haven't heard about any health benefits except for being able to see things in the body.

 

I am not dismissing bioelectricity. Neither do I dismiss Levin's research, but putting out a scam device gives him a black eye and casts doubt on future proclamations. How about some testing and submit a paper to a peer reviewed journal? Then, I would consider trying one, depending on the results. But I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen

[Mind]

Well, they say to use the device about 9" away I think they said but said it will work up against the body or as much as 3' away. Magnetic fields drop off very sharply, especially for small magnets. The field would be strong right at the machine, much weaker at 9 inches and imperceptible except for a sensitive instrument at 3 feet. 

 

Is it the rate of spin that makes a difference between this and the many random magnetic fields we are likely to encounter during the day including weak ones? Since its spinning, its not like each magnet is aligned with a certain part of the body. I read the part about how to build one and I probably missed a link to something but it seemed like extremely vague instructions. All I see is a hemisphere with some magnets stuck to the inside and a motor to rotate it

 

I'll grant you that he is working on it, trying to find the right way to do it but this device sounds more and more like quackery. Maybe he slapped this together to make money to fund the real research? 

 

Here is a quote 

"The PrimerCube produces a rotating magnetic field that no other device currently available is capable of producing. In our research, the unique field emitted by this device provides health benefits offered by no other known technology"

 

In what way is this unique? No other device is "capable" of producing this field? 

 

"The PrimerCube contains a patented magnetic array. Our research indicates that this magnetic array creates a uniquely structured ionic field. This ionic field produces unparalleled health benefits"

 

"ionic field"?? what on earth does that mean? I even did a search on that term and it seems to be meaningless. Magnetic fields do not ionize as far as I'm aware. And the "patented magnetic array" does that mean the order in which they placed the magnets does the trick?

 

I'm sorry but this device, or at least the way they explain it reeks of scam. It puts up more red flags than a chinese communist party meeting. An nmr, nuclear magnetic resonance machine creates much more powerful fields than any magnet you can buy over the counter. I haven't heard about any health benefits except for being able to see things in the body.

 

I am not dismissing bioelectricity. Neither do I dismiss Levin's research, but putting out a scam device gives him a black eye and casts doubt on future proclamations. How about some testing and submit a paper to a peer reviewed journal? Then, I would consider trying one, depending on the results. But I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen

 

I should have made it more clear....the PrimerCube is something different from Levin's research. This thread is mainly about the research in this lab: https://ase.tufts.ed...electricity.htm

 

The PrimerCube is a commercial product from some other company and might or might not work.

[adamh]

I should have made it more clear....the PrimerCube is something different from Levin's research. This thread is mainly about the research in this lab: https://ase.tufts.ed...electricity.htm

 

The PrimerCube is a commercial product from some other company and might or might not work.

 

I'm glad to hear that. The cube got mixed into the thread and I just made the assumption that it was his. The cube sounds like total bunk.

 

Using electricity to cause these things to happen would need very tiny electrodes in just the right spots, I would think. If it was just one spot that needed electricity, once you found that spot then the rest would be easier. But if it takes hundred of electrodes in the right spots then it may be too complex. 

 

One thought that comes to mind, if a few spots need a tiny bit of current constantly or at regular intervals, it could be possible to implant tiny antennas with tiny diodes. It might be a conducting wire hair size and diodes can be hair sized too. Then, you simply apply an alternating magnetic field to the area of the body, the tiny antennas pick up the signal and produce a tiny dc current. You could lie on it at night or carry it with you during the day. 

[lukas_93]

here is an interesting interview where Levin talks about his view on how to intervene:

 

https://youtu.be/MBbF3BUjVrg?t=1485

 

tldr: He really believes in drugs that open and close ion channels to trigger long-lasting changes

 

 

I have a question - about assessing Bioelectrical states:

 

How is it possible to obtain the bioelectrical state/ Vmem?

 

He mentions that they use fluorescent dyes. Mentioned also in this article: https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/22474652/

 

Is this the only way, or are there other possibly less invasive ways to get the bioelectrical state? 

[Mind]

here is an interesting interview where Levin talks about his view on how to intervene:

 

https://youtu.be/MBbF3BUjVrg?t=1485

 

tldr: He really believes in drugs that open and close ion channels to trigger long-lasting changes

 

 

I have a question - about assessing Bioelectrical states:

 

How is it possible to obtain the bioelectrical state/ Vmem?

 

He mentions that they use fluorescent dyes. Mentioned also in this article: https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/22474652/

 

Is this the only way, or are there other possibly less invasive ways to get the bioelectrical state? 

 

Highly recommend the video. If you don't understand what Levin is trying to do, watch the video. He is trying to manipulate the "software" or the "programming" of aging by rewriting the "signaling". Other methods are more brute force low-resolution manipulation of the hardware (gene editing, telomere lengthening, etc...)

 

Also MIND-BLOWING is the discussion of planaria that begins at 48:00 minutes into the video. The bio-electricity pattern trumps genetics in Levin's planaria experiments. This is hard for people to come to grips with - that there is a more conserved, ancient, bioelectricity program within cells that could be manipulated to produce rejuvenation outcomes, no matter what your genetics or epigenetics happen to be.

Edited by Mind, 08 January 2021 - 11:12 AM.

[Oakman]

Interesting in scientists may have found clues as to how Magnetism is sensed by cells (in this case by living human cervical cancer cells)...

 

Scientists observe live cells responding to magnetic fields for first time.

The layperson's story: https://newatlas.com...agnetic-fields/

and the actual study: https://www.pnas.org...8/3/e2018043118

[Mind]

Levin is making more appearances in popular media. Hopefully this will bring more awareness to his mind-expanding work.

 

Here he appears in a long podcast about many aspects of his work and related fields of computation. I can't summarize here, because there is too much interesting information. I thought the part about cancer coming in at about 1 hour and 5 minutes was the most eye-opening.

 

https://www.preposte...n-and-the-self/

[lukas_93]

I stumbled upon this amazing course by Prof. Grodstein from Tufts University on Bioelectricity. It goes a lot more in depth about the research by the Levin Lab:

 

http://www.ece.tufts.edu/ee/123/

 

The same lecturer will have another course on Bioelectricity called "Electricity inside you" this fall. 

[Bike_to_120]

I communicated with Michael Levin a couple of years ago and connected him with an entrepreneur that is funding his cancer research.

This latest podcast has some interesting observations on aging.

https://www.youtube....bed/Z0TNfysTazc

 

I was thinking of the so called hallmarks of aging and pondering how many can be explained by Michaels work

- epigenetic alterations

-altered cellular communication

- senescense

-inflammation

-mitochondrial dysfunction (electron transport chain disruptions?)

I could see any of these being altered by the bioelectrical signals

Edited by Bike_to_120, 15 December 2021 - 04:30 AM.

[dalack]

His progress with biobots seems to be moving exponentially. They've got them to replicate two years later. I think they will move to mammalian cells soon if they haven't already.
Levin has already stated this has the potential to be the technology that will rebuild our organs.
Its simply amazing what they have already been able to achieve

https://now.tufts.ed...s-can-replicate

Edited by dalack, 17 December 2021 - 10:50 PM.

[Mind]

I communicated with Michael Levin a couple of years ago and connected him with an entrepreneur that is funding his cancer research.

This latest podcast has some interesting observations on aging.

https://www.youtube....bed/Z0TNfysTazc

 

I was thinking of the so called hallmarks of aging and pondering how many can be explained by Michaels work

- epigenetic alterations

-altered cellular communication

- senescense

-inflammation

-mitochondrial dysfunction (electron transport chain disruptions?)

I could see any of these being altered by the bioelectrical signals

 

This is another SUPER video from Levin. He does a good job explaining his work in a way that the typical biohacker can understand. The part about anesthesia was particularly fascinating.

 

His work seems to indicate that the ancient individual cellular bioelectricity programming might be more powerful (when harnessed/activated) than genetic programming. When the cells are part of a larger organism acting within the normal metabolism/signaling, it seems as though they "know" or "sense" or are "guided" by the DNA of the organism. When they are separated (physically, or just isolated from the normal communication within the larger organization), then they revert to the ancient bioelectricity programming and find different ways to survive, such as in the case of the xenobots.

[Phoebus]

 

 

Piezoelectric material shown to help regrow knee-joint cartilage

By Ben Coxworth

January 1, 2022

 

By stimulating cells to reproduce, electricity has already been shown to help heal soft tissue injuries. Now, an electricity-producing implantable material likewise appears to boost the regrowth of cartilage in compromised joints.

In a study conducted at the University of Connecticut, a team led by Asst. Prof. Thanh Nguyen and postdoctoral fellow Yang Liu explored the use of a "tissue scaffold" made out of nanofibers of a biodegradable polymer known as poly-L lactic acid (PLLA). It had previously been used to accelerate the healing of broken bones.

So-called tissue scaffolds take their name from the fact that they have a scaffolding-like three-dimensional internal structure, which acts as a sort of roosting place for adjacent cells to migrate into and reproduce. Eventually, the scaffolding dissolves and is replaced entirely by the cells, resulting in a solid piece of biological tissue.

FaceboTwitter

• Flipboard
• LinkedI
  Thanh Nguyen (left) and Yang Liu, with a sample of the piezoelectric tissue scaffold material
  Thanh Nguye
  ESBy stimulating cells to reproduce, electricity has already been shown to . Now, an electricity-producing implantable material likewise appears to boost the regrowth of cartilage in compromised jointsIn a study conducted at the University of Connecticut, a team led by Asst. Prof. Thanh Nguyen and postdoctoral fellow Yang Liu explored the use of a "tissue scaffold" made out of nanofibers of a biodegradable polymer known as poly-L lactic acid (PLLA). It had previously been used to .So-called tissue scaffolds take their name from the fact that they have a scaffolding-like three-dimensional internal structure, which acts as a sort of roosting place for adjacent cells to migrate into and reproduce. Eventually, the scaffolding dissolves and is replaced entirely by the cells, resulting in a solid piece of biological tissue.

Unfortunately, according to the scientists, joint cartilage that has been regrown using conventional scaffolds has tended to be weaker than the original cartilage, causing it to quickly break down under regular use. That's where the PLLA comes in.

Along with being biocompatible, it's also a piezoelectric material, meaning that it produces a small electrical current when mechanically stressed. Therefore, it was believed that if a tissue scaffold made of the material were to be implanted in an arthritic knee joint, it would continuously produce cartilage-boosting electricity as it was squeezed during activities such as walking.

In order to test that theory, pieces of the material were placed in the injured knee joints of rabbits, which regularly hopped on a slowly-moving treadmill. It was found that after one to two months, strong, robust cartilage proceeded to grow back within the joints. By contrast, a control group that received non-piezoelectric tissue scaffolding experienced little healing of the damaged cartilage.

Importantly, the material didn't contain any chemical growth factors, which may cause unwanted side effects. The researchers now want to test the technology on larger, older animals, and to monitor the regrown cartilage for at least a year or two.

A paper on the study was recently published in the journal Science Translational Medicine.

https://newatlas.com...rows-cartilage/

[Mind]

Here is a new video from Levin with some refreshers on what he has done in the past and new ideas on how cells can be coaxed to explore different morphological and physiological state spaces.

 

One of the more interesting points he made is that there is no difference between neurons and any other cell in the body. They all use bioelectricity in a similar way. Neurons carry out different functions because of the environment they are in.

 

One thing I am worried about is what he says at the end of the video. He is excited to create more xenobots and explore new state spaces of intelligence. I don't think he is a "mad" scientist, just not carefully considering the creation of a multitude of new life forms that are alien to the ecological space of the earth's biosphere. There is a reason why the cells in our body are arranged in the way they are. There are reasons why plants and animals grow and interact the way they do. I am worried he will create life forms that could have a very negative effect on the ecological balance of the biosphere of the earth. We have already altered quite a bit of the biosphere in many negative ways (thankfully, without breaking things completely).

 

I would suggest that he should focus more on helping cure diseases instead of exploring new life forms and intelligence to let loose on the earth.

[Bike_to_120]

I would suggest that he should focus more on helping cure diseases instead of exploring new life forms and intelligence to let loose on the earth.

 

He has major programs on cancer research - so he is doing that. I have also heard he is working on aging

[Rocket]

There was a man who was building a building in the desert of America that was using electromagnetic fields to rejuvenate the bodies cells.... Can't think or the name. Maybe one or you know who in talking about. He died mysteriously as I seem go recall

[Mind]

Levin now has gotten funding for a company called Morphoceuticals.

 

 

“Using our understanding of natural voltage patterns and electroceuticals, we are beginning to understand how to communicate anatomical goals to cellular collectives. The bioelectric approaches we are pursuing kickstart complex morphological subroutines that would otherwise be too complex to micromanage at the molecular level.”

He added that Morphoceuticals’ goal is to identify our body’s triggers for complex anatomical outcomes.

“By controlling bioelectric signaling, we are seeking to eventually generate functional tissues, limbs, and organs in humans, which could greatly improve the quality of life for patients [2],” he said.

 

[Mind]

I attended a virtual presentation with Dr. Levin. He helped me understand more clearly the interplay between genetics and bioelectricity. I know he has explained the hardware vs. software (bioelectricity) before but I was unsure how these would play into various life extension and rejuvenation strategies.

 

The importance of genetics is to produce the parts (mainly proteins) for the cells to work with. If the cells have malformed, degraded, or defective building materials, then they won't be able to affect rejuvenation very well, no matter what you program them to do through bioelectrical methods.

 

On the question of how to implement various morphoceuticals to rejuvenate the human body, I was wondering if it will be difficult. Levin mentioned that they just bathe their tadpoles and worms in the various morhpoceuticals to program them and he anticipated it would be similar with human bodies - a broad a approach. I wonder if that would be an injection that would course throughout the body getting into every organ.

[Daniel Cooper]

Is any of this advanced to the state where it can demonstrate a practical application in a higher animal? Mouse, Rat, Monkey, Human?

[Mind]

Is any of this advanced to the state where it can demonstrate a practical application in a higher animal? Mouse, Rat, Monkey, Human?

 

They are working on it. They have open-sourced their tools and a new company has formed called Morphoceuticals - but so far they have only regrown limbs in frogs.

 

I would like to see cancer applications. They have used bioelectrical programming to suppress cancer in frogs. The frogs had cells with oncogenetic mutations - which guaranteed the development and progression of cancer - yet when they programmed the environment around the cancerous cells, cancer was suppressed, those cells became a product of their "healthy" environment instead of spreading and doing their own thing.

[Mind]

Another great video from Levin. If you have watched his previous videos, this one is very similar, but he gets better at explaining bioelectricity concepts every year.

[Snozzberry Scientist]

The more I learn about humanity, the more I believe we are the most advanced technology ever to be created. Thank you for all the knowledge, this thread is fascinating.

 

Where would you all start with learning about Levin's research and the field in general?

[Mind]

Getting a good mathematical knowledge of networks, systems, feedbacks is a good starting point.

 

The one thing people do not realize about biological systems is that information flows both up and down scales in response to stimuli AND the body locally resists entropy.