98 replies to this topic

[Daniel Cooper]

Ok, I'd like to gauge interest in a group buy of liposomal trehalose.  Here are the particulars:

 

1.) Target concentration is 100mg encapsulated trehalose per ml.

2.) 1 year shelf life, contains ETOH as a preservative.

3.) 250ml bottles costing €17/$21 plus shipping.

4.) Minimum total buy is 4L.

 

If there is other information anyone would like don't hesitate to ask and I'll try to chase it down for you.

 

If you're interested let me know here and how much you'd like to purchase.

 

 

 

[OP2040]

I'm thinking 10 grams a day would be a great trial run.  So that's 25 Grams a bottle, for me to do a ~6 month trial (5 days/week, two days off) would mean 48 bottles and ~$1,008.  For a three month trial ~$504.  Considering the superior delivery method and the fact that the atherosclerosis mouse trial didn't go on for nearly that long, this could work.  With the assumption that it will work the same as in mice (a huge if) I'm just asking myself, how much would I be willing to pay for a guaranteed 30% reduction in arterial plaque.  Put in those terms, I would pay much more than even this.  Too bad we can't get our insurance to help lol. 

 

I may have to ponder this for a few days.  I am definitely in, just not sure by how much.  Also, would love to hear what others are thinking.

[Benko]

I'm in as well but also need to think about dosing/amount I'll buy.

[normalizing]

whats the benefits again, someone care remind me...

[OP2040]

Benefits are, going from memory:

1. 30% atherosclerotic plaque reduction in mice using IP injection.

2. Improved Endothelial function even with oral dosing in humans

3. Also possibly good for all the age-related brain diseases

 

There are a ton of studies for various organs and diseases.  If I have time later I will find some of them and post..

[Hebbeh]

I'm in but also need to determine quantity

Edited by Hebbeh, 09 May 2018 - 04:41 PM.

[normalizing]

if it helps with brain disorders, im in too. i need something for major depression that is treatment resistant

[OP2040]

hazy,

While there is no direct evidence that this will help with your depression, I think there is a lot of indirect evidence.

 

We know that Trehalose does effect the brain, and that it definitely does clear various types of brain junk to a significant degree.  It is even being tested in humans for several brain disorders based on this principle.And those trials have established that it is clearing things like amyloid/

 

We also know from other studies that there is a relationship between brain protein aggregates and mood disorders.

 

Based on this and it's relatively low cost and safety profile, it's definitely worth a try.

 

However, I would say that if you have had depression your whole life, then it's unlikely to be caused by the protein aggregates that come with aging.  I've been pretty much born with moderate to severe anxiety, so I don't expect this treatment to help with that.  But it is promising for so many areas of health and wellness that it's in my top 5 wish list for supplementation.

[Daniel Cooper]

I'm thinking 10 grams a day would be a great trial run.  So that's 25 Grams a bottle, for me to do a ~6 month trial (5 days/week, two days off) would mean 48 bottles and ~$1,008.  For a three month trial ~$504.  Considering the superior delivery method and the fact that the atherosclerosis mouse trial didn't go on for nearly that long, this could work.  With the assumption that it will work the same as in mice (a huge if) I'm just asking myself, how much would I be willing to pay for a guaranteed 30% reduction in arterial plaque.  Put in those terms, I would pay much more than even this.  Too bad we can't get our insurance to help lol. 

 

I may have to ponder this for a few days.  I am definitely in, just not sure by how much.  Also, would love to hear what others are thinking.

 

 

Personally I think that is a bit of a large daily dose.   

 

The BioBlast human trials are as much as 27g IV per week.  You'd be doing almost 3x that.

 

And there is the practical matter of how much volume of liposomal trehalose you'd be consuming.  At 100mg/ml that's 100ml per day.  The liposomal carrier is phosphatidylcholine.  That's a lot of PC per day.  I don't know if consuming that quantity per day would cause GI upset or other issues as I've never personally known someone that did it.

 

I could re-approach the vendor to see if we might get the concentration up, but they advised not trying to push it too high until they had experience with it.

[poonja]

I would be interested in participating due to the fact that I do have coronary artery disease.  Count me in going forward.

[normalizing]

hold on , so it has to be administered IV route to be most effective? i did read oral bioavailability is quite nonexistent, not sure how liposomal works but i see studies done on IV route which is discouraging me.

 

op2040, i only developed depression/anxiety in my later years after heavy abuse of alcohol and drugs. so im not sure how the mechanism to fix this depression will work but im always curious to try new things for help since those shitty antidepressants NEVER work for me

[Daniel Cooper]

hold on , so it has to be administered IV route to be most effective? i did read oral bioavailability is quite nonexistent, not sure how liposomal works but i see studies done on IV route which is discouraging me.

 

op2040, i only developed depression/anxiety in my later years after heavy abuse of alcohol and drugs. so im not sure how the mechanism to fix this depression will work but im always curious to try new things for help since those shitty antidepressants NEVER work for me

 

No, this is not IV administered, we are going for liposomal encapsulation so that we don't have to do IV.

 

The liposomal encapsulation is basically shielding the trehalose from breakdown in the gut.  See this thread for more detail, particularly the last two pages.

 

https://www.longecit...therosclerosis/

[OP2040]

Personally I think that is a bit of a large daily dose.   

 

The BioBlast human trials are as much as 27g IV per week.  You'd be doing almost 3x that.

 

And there is the practical matter of how much volume of liposomal trehalose you'd be consuming.  At 100mg/ml that's 100ml per day.  The liposomal carrier is phosphatidylcholine.  That's a lot of PC per day.  I don't know if consuming that quantity per day would cause GI upset or other issues as I've never personally known someone that did it.

 

All good points.  I guess I'm stuck in the mode where you need to up the dose a lot, but if this works similar to IV then the dose can be lower.  I am also focusing in on the atherosclerosis mouse study, because it intrigues me the most, and they used over HED over 10G. 

 

I'm going to look and see if there are any toxicity studies for PC.  I'm not too worried about GI issues as I have an iron stomach.  In lieu of a deep dive, here is what Wikipedia says about PC:

 

 

Possible health benefits Senescence

Phosphatidylcholine is a vital substance found in every cell of the human body. Some researchers have used mutant mouse models with severe oxidative damage as a model of "accelerated aging" to investigate the possible role of phosphatidylcholine supplementation as a way of slowing down aging-related processes^[8] and improving brain functioning and memory capacity in dementia.^[9] However, a 2009 systematic review of clinical trials in humans found that there was not enough evidence to support the use of lecithin or phosphatidylcholine supplementation for patients with dementia. The study found that a moderate benefit could not be ruled out until further large scale studies are performed.^[10]

Liver repair

This section needs more medical references for verification or relies too heavily on primary sources. Please review the contents of the section and add the appropriate references if you can. Unsourced or poorly sourced material may be challenged and removed. (May 2013)

Studies have examined potential benefits of phosphatidylcholine for liver repair. Results are mixed in animal models,^[11] and no clinical evidence shows a health benefit in humans. One study shows the healing effect of phosphatidylcholine in mice with hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and hepatitis C. The administration of phosphatidylcholine for chronic, active hepatitis resulted in significant reduction of disease activity in mice.^{[12][full citation needed][unreliable source?]}

Lipolysis

Some organizations^{[clarification needed]} promote the use of injected phosphatidylcholine, otherwise known as injection lipolysis, claiming the procedure can break down fat cells, and thus serve as an alternative to liposuction. While the procedure cites early experiments that showed lipolysis in cases of fat emboli,^[13] no peer-reviewed studies have shown any amount of lipolysis even remotely comparable to liposuction.^[14][15] Injection of phosphatidyl choline in small numbers of patients has been reported to reduce or completely resolve a majority of lipomas, although some actually increased in size. There were side-effects, which resolved without complication. Long-term studies are deemed necessary to judge efficacy.^[16][17] Dr. Patrick Treacy has used phosphatidylcholine and deoxcholate successfully in the treatment of infraorbital fat pads.^[18]

Ulcerative colitis

Phase IIa/b clinical trials performed at the Heidelberg University Hospital have shown that delayed release purified phosphatidylcholine is an anti-inflammatory agent, and a surface hydrophobicity increasing compound with promising therapeutic potential in the treatment of ulcerative colitis.^[19]

Possible health risks

A report in 2011 has linked the microbial catabolites of phosphatidylcholine with increased atherosclerosis in mice through the production of choline, trimethylamine oxide, and betaine.^[20]

 

I was surprised at the possible benefits, but he last part is a little concerning, and more than a little ironic considering what I want to use it for.  I will dig deeper into that and see if I can find anything definitive.

[Daniel Cooper]

Yeah, there are discussions of choline digestion in the gut evolving trimethylamine oxide (TMAO).  That definitely happens in mice, but testing has not shown it to happen in humans (i.e. no measurable increase in TMAO after choline ingestion in humans).  Probably the gut flora being quite different between mice and men is the explanation.  But I do encourage you to look into it.  Search around on the site for "choline tmao" and you'll probably find all the relevant discussions.

 

Ironically, the one food that definitely causes a spike in plasma TMAO levels is fish (which normally contain some amount of TMAO and is responsible for the fishy smell) and is known to be heart healthy.

 

In any case, 100ml of phosphatidylcholine is like consuming a third of a coke can of the stuff.  I think that's really going to do an unpleasant number on your gut but I could be wrong about that.

 

I think the strategy with liposomal trehalose is somewhat lower doses but present on a more continual basis.  In the BioBlast studies their 27g weekly trehalose infusion is probably gone in an hour or so.  These lower but more frequent doses are likely to expose the vascular endothelium to trehalose for a longer time cumulatively per week and therefore may be effective at lower total doses. 

[normalizing]

regarding TMAO just read this and follow its instructions;

 

 

"Vegan and vegetarian diets appear to select against gut flora that metabolize carnitine (in favor of other gut flora more coordinated with their food supply). This apparent difference in their microbiome is associated with substantially reduced gut bacteria capable of converting carnitine to trimethylamine, which is later metabolized in the liver to TMAO.^[10]

3,3-Dimethyl-1-butanol (DMB), a structural analog of choline, inhibits microbial TMA formation in mice and in human feces, thereby reducing plasma TMAO levels after choline or carnitine supplementation.^[8] It is found in some balsamic vinegars, red wines, and some cold-pressed extra virgin olive oils and grape seed oils.^[8]

Resveratrol has been shown to reduce TMAO in mice by remodeling gut microbiota.^[19]"

 

 

so it seems to explain the french paradox, the italian and greek diets in prevention of heart disease even though all of them eat lots of fat but the french and italians drink red wine, italians consume balsamic vinegar and olive oils too and the greeks olive oils

[OP2040]

Thanks guys,

I should just listen to you, as my research confirms everything you are saying.  It would be great to be able to purchase red wine, balsamic vinegar or olive oil that has a known quantity of DMB in it.  I consume all of these things, but it's a crap shoot as far as knowing what you are getting. It would also be nice to be able to test for TMAO in the blood without having to set up an elaborate relationship between the Cleveland clinic and your doctor.  There are so many important research discoveries out there that take decades to become actionable.  Anybody have any insights on how to overcome these two limits?  I'm certainly never going to become a vegan/vegetarian until the realistic fake meat comes around.

 

So back to the Trehalose, the bottom line is that lecithin is not the problem at all, though that is a great point about very high dosage.  I may just take a shot of balsamic vinegar each day a couple hours before supplementing with the Trehalose.

[Benko]

Personally I think that is a bit of a large daily dose.   

 

The BioBlast human trials are as much as 27g IV per week.  You'd be doing almost 3x that.

 

And there is the practical matter of how much volume of liposomal trehalose you'd be consuming.  At 100mg/ml that's 100ml per day. 

 

Probably silly question, but at 4g/day=28g/week that is 33cc/day.  How much of the 33cc (1.1 fluid once)  is alcohol? Trace quantities?  more?

[Daniel Cooper]

Probably silly question, but at 4g/day=28g/week that is 33cc/day.  How much of the 33cc (1.1 fluid once)  is alcohol? Trace quantities?  more?

 

I'll have to ask that question.  Probably won't get a reply till Monday but I'll update when I do.

[OP2040]

We've come this far, so let me say I am solidly in for the minimum amount at this point.  After we have all our questions answered, we should start talking payment and delivery options. 

 

I'm extremely leery at this point when it comes to trust and cooperation here.  I've only been involved in one group buy, the FOX04 one, and while meatsauce seemed to come through on the first round, he has seemingly gone dark for the second round and I've already prepaid.  If something goes wrong with that, I will chalk it up to a very hard earned life experience.  But I will do everything in my power to assure that it doesn't happen again.  If we will be getting our deliveries separately, then will we also be paying the manufacturer separately?  This would essentially solve the trust issue.  No offense to you at all Daniel but this is an anonymous internet forum, I'm sure you understand.

[Daniel Cooper]

No offense taken at all.  This is the internet and we are all more or less anonymous.

 

Here's how I hope this group buy can be worked.

 

I'm hoping that we will end up with interest above the 4L minimum, which I think likely since I'm in for a liter alone.  If we come with with people interesting is 5 or 6 liters, I'm going to approach the vendor ( ActiNovo - www.actinovo.com/shop/en/ ) and propose that they accept the orders directly from those of us interested - you pay them and they ship to you.  If I were then I think I'd just add this as an item on their website that isn't linked by any other pages and we could then just post the link here.

 

I have basically zero interest in being an intermediary where I take delivery and then reship the product.  I'll do it if I have to just so that I can get the quantity I need without having to buy the whole 4L production run myself.  If we have to go that route I'll assure that everyone will get what they pay for but I'd far rather have everyone deal directly with the vendor.

 

Let's just see what sort of total quantity there is an interest in and I'll make my proposal to them once we have that number.  Obviously the greater the interest the more likely we can work it out as I think we'd all prefer.

 

If people aren't comfortable with the arrangement we can always call it off.

 

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 11 May 2018 - 06:17 PM.

[OP2040]

Then we're definitely on the same page.  I'm also in for at least 1L, so I think getting enough interest shouldn't be a problem at all. 

 

I'm trying to organize different "group buy", and since it's my first, I'm hoping to base it on this one, as this is exactly how I would like it to go down.  I always thought manufacturers required you to be part of lab to purchase most of the stuff people try to purchase on here, meaning that I may not be able to do separate pay/deliveries for mine.  This order doesn't raise as many eyebrows since it is not a synthesized product, and we're just asking for an alternative delivery method for an already approved product.

[Daniel Cooper]

Yeah, most of these group buys are with synthesis labs, which don't normally deal with end customers.  And their product is generally a lot more expensive and has a lot longer lead time.

 

With ActiNovo we have a company that normally sells to end customers and makes I don't know .... maybe a dozen different liposomal supplements.  Plus, the whole 4L buy is only $336US without shipping.  

 

They haven't said they will accommodate us by selling directly off their website, but I figure the more interest we have the more likely we are to talk them into it.  Honestly, I made the pitch to them that given their product line this should be a standard product for them (and I still believe that). 

 

I hope we can work this buy out in a manner that everyone is comfortable with.  Heck, I hope we pull the buy off and they just start offering it on their website so we can forgo all this nonsense.

 

 

 

[Rocket]

I've looked into this and I am in.

[Hebbeh]

Where are we at with this?
Have we determined the amount of alcohol per ml? How many ml of solution is everybody going to try and guzzle per dose? Per day?

I'm thinking I'm in for a liter but still unsure how to dose this.

[Daniel Cooper]

FYI my contact at ActiNovo is traveling and out of contact.  Haven't heard back on the question of alcohol content.  However, looking at their other products, the ones that add alcohol as a preservative list it as being 10% alcohol, and I would expect that what we'd get would be the same.  So you're looking at a similar alcohol content to wine and a normal dose would be in the tablespoons per day range.  Not enough to notice the alcohol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rocket]

Exciting stuff. If we continue usage should we see more than a 30% reduction or is that an upper limit?

[OP2040]

I agree Rocket, it is exciting   For once we have a substance that has been studied extensively, very positive and powerful effects, relatively cheap and we are addressing the delivery problem.  I also think this should resolve any safety or C diff. issues, whether real or imagined. The remaining problems of how much and how often to dose are very nice problems to have! 

 

I'm wondering if it matters how long it stays in the bloodstream.  If the MOA is activation of tfeb and macrophage reprogramming, then that shouldn't necessarily require IV drip levels of consistency.

[StanG]

I'm in when you get the details.

[sphere]

very interested: please let us know when things are in place to order and Thank you

very interested: please let us know when things are in place to order and Thank you

[bladedmind]

Thanks to everyone for thinking this through and investigating the group buy.  Please consider me for participation should the buy come to fruition.