98 replies to this topic

[OP2040]

I'm definitely in for the buy.  But also, I'm having no problem at all with rectal admin @ 10grams.  Whatever one may think of this otherwise, I'm sure it's a great way to get it into the bloodstream as well, and it's much less of a problem to execute than might be imagined.  Also, it's nice to have more than one option. 

 

 

[sphere]

I'm definitely in for the buy.  But also, I'm having no problem at all with rectal admin @ 10grams.  Whatever one may think of this otherwise, I'm sure it's a great way to get it into the bloodstream as well, and it's much less of a problem to execute than might be imagined.  Also, it's nice to have more than one option. 

Exactly how would this be done.  Appreciate a description/protacol  or  perhaps a link to a website detailing?

thanks

best price found:

https://glycop.com/i...id=0&Itemid=296

$6.00 per pound  bulk bags of course cheaper per pound

[sphere]

I'm definitely in for the buy.  But also, I'm having no problem at all with rectal admin @ 10grams.  Whatever one may think of this otherwise, I'm sure it's a great way to get it into the bloodstream as well, and it's much less of a problem to execute than might be imagined.  Also, it's nice to have more than one option. 

yes i see, it is quite easy

here is a link to syringes to use for all interested--vet so perhaps good price

http://www.medtronic...ringes/syringes

[OP2040]

yes i see, it is quite easy

here is a link to syringes to use for all interested--vet so perhaps good price

http://www.medtronic...ringes/syringes

 

Those would work fine, there are also cheap bulb type ones on Amazon, and I buy my bulk Trehalose in powder form on Amazon as well.  Mix with just enough water to absorb and that's it.  Sterilization of your utensil is key of course.  And I would recommend due to hard won experience to get as small a syringe or bulb as possible.  If you use a bigger one, then you will inevitably force some air in as well, which is not going to hurt you but also not exactly comfortable.  It's not as easy as popping a pill, but it's also not nearly as hard as I'd imagined before I tried. 

 

And with this route, you can be confident that even at a relatively high dose of 10G you are getting almost all of it into your bloodstream.  It's a standard route of administration in hospitals for when GI no longer works for whatever reason.  But what convinced me was reading about how drug addicts do it with various drugs, particularly cocaine when they don't want to further ruin their nasal passage.  As stupid as drug abuse is, they do tend to be experts on effective routes of delivery.

[Daniel Cooper]

Guys,

 

I'd like to start getting some quantities from those interested so that we can start to move forward.

 

Does everyone have the info they need to start talking about what they are interested in purchasing?

 

 

 

[sphere]

Do we just post here or contact you directly? First group buy for me. Apparently you are going to try to set it up that we commit to an amount [posting here on this forum?] but order directly individually from the company and pay them on their website. 

 

 

Guys,

 

I'd like to start getting some quantities from those interested so that we can start to move forward.

 

Does everyone have the info they need to start talking about what they are interested in purchasing?

 

[Benko]

Daniel,

 

I dont remember if you addressed this but what kind of QC will be done on final product?  Also, anyone know if this is the kind of product that would be damaged by heat during shipping as we get into summer?

 

Based on my dosing guesses earlier in thread 1 liter is about a months worth so I'm in for 2 liters. 

 

 

[StanG]

I'd like1/2liter assuming it is the liposomal we are talking about (I'm still not sure of the price or how long it will hold its' potency if stored in a frig). I already take several supplements that are liposomal and, except for the taste - which can taste bad, it is a great way to get the bioavailability we need.

 

Stan

[Richard McGee]

Daniel, count me in for at least one liter. Maybe more, if the price is not too dear.

[StanG]

Do I misunderstand this is or is it a downside to the way we want to take this?

 

 

Antibodies Targeting Oxidized Lipids Slow the Development of Atherosclerosis
https://www.fightagi...therosclerosis/

In the SENS rejuvenation research view of atherosclerosis, a primary cause is the presence of oxidized lipids in the bloodstream. Rising levels of oxidative stress with aging, with mitochondrial dysfunction as a primary cause, means an increasing number of oxidized lipid molecules. Atherosclerosis begins when these lipids irritate the blood vessel walls, attracting macrophage cells to clean up the problem. The normal process involves macrophages ingesting the problem lipids and either breaking them down or handing them off to high-density lipoprotein (HDL) particles to be carried to the liver where they can be dealt with. Unfortunately, some species of oxidized lipid cannot be processed well by macrophages, and the cells become overwhelmed. They either die or become inflammatory foam cells, making the area of damage worse. The fatty plaques of atherosclerosis that narrow and weaken blood vessels are formed of dead macrophages and the lipids that they should have removed.

The SENS approach is to find ways to break down the problem oxidized lipids, remove them before they can cause harm to the macrophages that are critical to maintenance of blood vessel walls. Some progress in this LysoSENS program for atherosclerosis has been accomplished, mostly focused on 7-ketocholesterol, a particularly harmful species of oxidized lipid. Other groups are starting to pay attention to this line of research, which is a good thing. In the study reported here, scientists used antibodies to thin out a class of oxidized lipid from the bloodstream, and demonstrated that this slows the pace at which atherosclerosis progresses in a mouse model of the condition. This is important evidence that strongly supports the SENS position.

In atherosclerosis, lipids such as cholesterol move in a loop: from the liver to LDL particles, then into atherosclerotic lesions, then taken up by macrophages and passed off to HDL particles, then finally back to the liver. All of the available anti-atherosclerosis technologies interfere in the front half of that loop, the movement of lipids through the bloodstream in LDL particles. They globally reduce cholesterol levels, and that somewhat slows the advance of atherosclerosis. It doesn't do it well, however. Even extremely low cholesterol levels, such as those produced by PCSK9 inhibition, don't significantly reduce existing atherosclerotic plaque - they allow a little reduction, but that is about it. Thus other strategies are needed, and the work here is good evidence for approaches that in some way protect macrophages from oxidized lipids, a methodology that should allow those cells to better clear existing plaque.

 

[Rocket]

Do I misunderstand this is or is it a downside to the way we want to take this?


Antibodies Targeting Oxidized Lipids Slow the Development of Atherosclerosis
https://www.fightagi...therosclerosis/
In the SENS rejuvenation research view of atherosclerosis, a primary cause is the presence of oxidized lipids in the bloodstream. Rising levels of oxidative stress with aging, with mitochondrial dysfunction as a primary cause, means an increasing number of oxidized lipid molecules. Atherosclerosis begins when these lipids irritate the blood vessel walls, attracting macrophage cells to clean up the problem. The normal process involves macrophages ingesting the problem lipids and either breaking them down or handing them off to high-density lipoprotein (HDL) particles to be carried to the liver where they can be dealt with. Unfortunately, some species of oxidized lipid cannot be processed well by macrophages, and the cells become overwhelmed. They either die or become inflammatory foam cells, making the area of damage worse. The fatty plaques of atherosclerosis that narrow and weaken blood vessels are formed of dead macrophages and the lipids that they should have removed.
The SENS approach is to find ways to break down the problem oxidized lipids, remove them before they can cause harm to the macrophages that are critical to maintenance of blood vessel walls. Some progress in this LysoSENS program for atherosclerosis has been accomplished, mostly focused on 7-ketocholesterol, a particularly harmful species of oxidized lipid. Other groups are starting to pay attention to this line of research, which is a good thing. In the study reported here, scientists used antibodies to thin out a class of oxidized lipid from the bloodstream, and demonstrated that this slows the pace at which atherosclerosis progresses in a mouse model of the condition. This is important evidence that strongly supports the SENS position.
In atherosclerosis, lipids such as cholesterol move in a loop: from the liver to LDL particles, then into atherosclerotic lesions, then taken up by macrophages and passed off to HDL particles, then finally back to the liver. All of the available anti-atherosclerosis technologies interfere in the front half of that loop, the movement of lipids through the bloodstream in LDL particles. They globally reduce cholesterol levels, and that somewhat slows the advance of atherosclerosis. It doesn't do it well, however. Even extremely low cholesterol levels, such as those produced by PCSK9 inhibition, don't significantly reduce existing atherosclerotic plaque - they allow a little reduction, but that is about it. Thus other strategies are needed, and the work here is good evidence for approaches that in some way protect macrophages from oxidized lipids, a methodology that should allow those cells to better clear existing plaque.

That's just a hypothesis, of which there are several concerning atherosclerosis. Pauline's hypothesis was that its caused by low vitamin c and damaged arteries with small tears being plugged by plaque....

I see nothing in your excerpt to detract myself in the slightest.

[sphere]

That's just a hypothesis, of which there are several concerning atherosclerosis. Pauline's hypothesis was that its caused by low vitamin c and damaged arteries with small tears being plugged by plaque....

I see nothing in your excerpt to detract myself in the slightest.

in general anti oxidents curtail autophagy, certainly when taken in large amounts [for example the suggested dose per day of LEF's popular multi] and some would not consider those amounts to be large. Complex I think as there are  different "paths" to autophagy  [is that the correct way to say that?] and some antioxidents will slow the process from one path and not another, other antioxidents will slow another path. So complex and I apologise for my blanket statement, but certainly large amounts of vitamin C [per Pauline] may well curtail autophagy. 

 

Anyway sure everyone here is aware of the 2 edged sword of antioxidents in general. I  take spermidine two days in a row every 8-9 days and on those days as the amount of anti-oxidents even in one-third dose of LEF's multi [i never take more than one-third suggested dose per day [LEF's research is often very very suspect btw imo] may well curtail the  autophagy [there are other positive effecs from spermidine] I just take my whole food multi those 2 days which are "complete" but low dose.

Probably makes no sense to think in terms of short only 2 days away from anti-oxidents but for now that's my approach. NAC for example should certainly not be taken with Spermidine as it will curtail the autophagy along that "path" .

So complex and I think very much in process of coming to "light" in terms of autophagy: and spermidine effects along a different path than Trehalose but thought worth mentioning.

Sorry re my statement on LEF, they probably help support this forum, but really really suspect slanted poor research promulgated consistently...for sales of course, they have to remain in business and wish to be profitable. 

[Kevinsan]

Send me an pm when getting ready to order. It can be done commercially. I've already contact manufacturers. They will do the trehalose but not the HBCD in a liposome. HBCD injections cause people to go deaf.

[Daniel Cooper]

Just thought I'd do an update since it's been awhile (been working 60/hr weeks on a project lately).

 

I have one outstanding question with the vendor - I'm trying to get them to commit to hitting 200mg/ml encapsulated trehalose which is double the concentration I had originally asked for.  Unfortunately my contact at Actinovo has gone silent. I suspect he's on a typical month long European vacation since their offices are in Holland and Germany and this is about the time of year for that.  

 

I'll circle back around and post my list of who wants how much in the next day or so and you guys can confirm if you're still interested.

 

 

 

 

[Cmdr_Burrito]

Hi Daniel,

 

Any updates on your progress with Actinovo getting the group buy together for the encapsulated trehalose?

[Cmdr_Burrito]

FYI, I went ahead and contacted Actinovo directly regarding the development of a Liposomal Trehalose product.

 

The particular we've worked out to this point are as follows:

 

1.) Target concentration is 150mg encapsulated trehalose per ml.

2.) 1 year shelf life, contains potassium sorbate (0.2%) as a preservative.

3.) 250ml bottles with blank white labels, each costing €28.70/$33.57 plus shipping.

4.) Minimum total buy is 5L.

 

Obviously this is MUCH more expensive than what they were quoting you, and they're asking me for a minimum buy of 5L instead of 4L.  Differences from what you had worked out with them are the use of Potassium Sorbate vs ETOH as the preservative, and a slightly higher concentration of 150mg/ml vs 100mg/ml.

[Cmdr_Burrito]

After doing some back of the napkin calculations, I came up with the following based on what Actinovo has quoted me, based on a 5L minimum buy, at a concentration of 150mg/mL, with the intent of getting anywhere from a 2g to 4g daily dose of liposome encapsulated trehalose…
 
1) With 5L of product at 150mg/mL, how long will it last at a dose of 2g encapsulated trehalose per day:

Starting Product:  5000mL
Target Daily Dose:  2000mg / 150mg/mL = 13.33mL (~2.71 tsp)
Total Days before running out of Product:  5000mL / 13.33mL/day = 375 days (~12.3 months)
Total Price:  28.70 euro / 250 mL =  574 euro ($669.51 US) / 5L
Cost per Month:  574 euro / 12.3 months = 46.67 euro ($54.44 US) / month
 
 
2) With 5L of product at 150mg/mL, how long will it last at a dose of 3g encapsulated trehalose per day:

Starting Product:  5000mL
Target Daily Dose:  3000mg / 150mg/mL = 20mL (~4.1 tsp)
Total Days before running out of Product:  5000mL / 20mL/day = 250 days (~8.2 months)
Total Price:  28.70 euro / 250 mL =  574 euro ($669.51 US) / 5L
Cost per Month:  574 euro / 8.2 months = 70.00 euro ($81.65 US) / month
 
 
3) With 5L of product at 150mg/mL, how long will it last at a dose of 4g encapsulated trehalose per day:

Starting Product:  5000mL
Target Daily Dose:  4000mg / 150mg/mL = 26.66mL (~5.41 tsp)
Total Days before running out of Product:  5000mL / 26.66mL/day = 187.5 days (~6.2 months)
Total Price:  28.70 euro / 250 mL =  574 euro ($669.51 US) / 5L
Cost per Month:  574 euro / 6.2 months = 92.58 euro ($107.99 US) / month

 
That seems pretty darn expensive to me at $669.51 (US dollars) for the total 5L buy (monthly cost obviously varies based on preferred daily dose), but unsure what can be done about that.  Thoughts?

Edited by Cmdr_Burrito, 02 August 2018 - 01:17 AM.

[Hebbeh]

Is the 5L minimum per customer or per group buy total commitment?

[Cmdr_Burrito]

Is the 5L minimum per customer or per group buy total commitment?

5L is the minimum order for a single person/customer. I'm waiting to hear back from them regarding their price schedule / discounts for larger amounts.

[Cmdr_Burrito]

After doing some back of the napkin calculations, I came up with the following based on what Actinovo has quoted me, based on a 5L minimum buy, at a concentration of 150mg/mL, with the intent of getting anywhere from a 2g to 4g daily dose of liposome encapsulated trehalose…
 
1) With 5L of product at 150mg/mL, how long will it last at a dose of 2g encapsulated trehalose per day:

Starting Product:  5000mL
Target Daily Dose:  2000mg / 150mg/mL = 13.33mL (~2.71 tsp)
Total Days before running out of Product:  5000mL / 13.33mL/day = 375 days (~12.3 months)
Total Price:  28.70 euro / 250 mL =  574 euro ($669.51 US) / 5L
Cost per Month:  574 euro / 12.3 months = 46.67 euro ($54.44 US) / month
 
 
2) With 5L of product at 150mg/mL, how long will it last at a dose of 3g encapsulated trehalose per day:

Starting Product:  5000mL
Target Daily Dose:  3000mg / 150mg/mL = 20mL (~4.1 tsp)
Total Days before running out of Product:  5000mL / 20mL/day = 250 days (~8.2 months)
Total Price:  28.70 euro / 250 mL =  574 euro ($669.51 US) / 5L
Cost per Month:  574 euro / 8.2 months = 70.00 euro ($81.65 US) / month
 
 
3) With 5L of product at 150mg/mL, how long will it last at a dose of 4g encapsulated trehalose per day:

Starting Product:  5000mL
Target Daily Dose:  4000mg / 150mg/mL = 26.66mL (~5.41 tsp)
Total Days before running out of Product:  5000mL / 26.66mL/day = 187.5 days (~6.2 months)
Total Price:  28.70 euro / 250 mL =  574 euro ($669.51 US) / 5L
Cost per Month:  574 euro / 6.2 months = 92.58 euro ($107.99 US) / month

 
That seems pretty darn expensive to me at $669.51 (US dollars) for the total 5L buy (monthly cost obviously varies based on preferred daily dose), but unsure what can be done about that.  Thoughts?

BTW, I'm basing my target daily dose of anywhere from 2g to 4g of liposomally encapsulated trehalose, on the results of the BioBlast Phase 2a SCA3 study where they were dosing the patients once per week with either 13.5g or 27g of IV injected trehalose. I figure you take their "weekly" dosage amounts, divide by 7 (days), and then round up, to give you a nominal "daily" dosage that would be roughly equivalent to the weekly IV infusions that BioBlast used.

Potential Target Dose #1: 13.5g week / 7 days = ~1.93g per day (rounding up to 2g)
Potential Target Dose #2: 20.25g week / 7 days = ~2.89g per day (rounding up to 3g) - Only suggesting this as a possible dosage because it is halfway between target dose #1 and #2, so might be a good middle ground?
Potential Target Dose #3: 27g week / 7 days = ~3.86g per day (rounding up to 4g)

"Bioblast Announces Phase 2a Results of Trehalose in Patients with Spinocerebellar Ataxia Type 3 (SCA3)":
https://globenewswir...ype-3-SCA3.html

Looks like both the higher (27g) and lower (13.5g) weekly dose rates were both equally efficacious, with both dosages effectively halting the progression of the neurodegenerative brain disorder (SCA3) in a small group of patients for the duration of the study (either 6 or 12 months depending on the patient group). So I'm trying to decide whether to target the larger or smaller dose rate from that study.

I figure that even though the uptake of liposomally encapsulated compounds through the gut is probably pretty high, it's still most likely not a 100% efficient process. As such, shooting for a higher dose is probably a good idea in order to make up for any shortfall in unmodified trehalose delivery into the blood stream when using this particular delivery method.

Another potential benefit of going for a higher target dose, is less preservative will be needed since unused product will not be sitting around on the shelf for nearly as long. That could be a significant benefit for some folks that are sensitive about such things.

Still mulling this over, but the highest (4g) daily dose rate is looking more and more attractive to me. The only real down side to that would be the significant additional expense that it would incur (i.e., 2 x the cost) over the lowest (2g) daily dose, which honestly "might" be just as effective. Humm... this is a tough one, perhaps a 3g daily dose would be a good middle ground to act as a hedge between cost & effectiveness?

Edited by Cmdr_Burrito, 02 August 2018 - 10:17 PM.

[Cmdr_Burrito]

Hi All, unsure what happened to Daniel (as he seems to have gone inactive on this thread for a bit over a month now), but is anyone else here still interested in pursuing a purchase of liposomally encapsulated trehalose product?

Edited by Cmdr_Burrito, 08 August 2018 - 07:53 PM.

[Rocket]

I am in.

[Benko]

i am in.

[ceridwen]

I am in

[Kevinsan]

I'm in. Whats the total amount needed. Sned a total number and amount per bottle. If reasonable we can pay for the entire batch and break bulk it to you guys.

[Cmdr_Burrito]

FYI, I have ordered a 3 pound sample of food grade trehalose to be sent to the manufacturer for testing purposes. They are going to use that sample to validate that they can even work with the trehalose and successfully encapsulate it. Assuming that process is successful, they will send me a small ready sample for approval before moving on to a larger production volume.

Current product specs are as follows:

1) Target concentration is now 100mg/mL (had to drop down a bit from the originally proposed 150mg/mL, because they weren't sure they could fully encapsulate the entire product at the higher concentration).
2) Phospholipid concentration should be approx 130mg/mL.
3) 0.2% by volume Potassium Sorbate as preservative (yielding a shelf life of 12 months).
4) Product ships in 250mL (~1 cup) glass bottles (with no label).
5) No artificial colors, or flavors added.
6) Minimum purchase is reportedly 5L at 574 euro / $661.45 (e.g., ~114.8 euro / ~$132.29 per liter). They offer a 14% discount if you hit 50L in a single order, but I doubt we can hit that target.

As discussed before, I figure my target dose will be either 2g (2000mg), 3g (3000mg), or 4g (4000mg) encapsulated Trehalose per day (still haven't decided which). Given the slightly lower (100mg/mL) concentration rate, the amount of product that I'll have to imbibe in order to reach my selected target daily dose will obviously need to increase (e.g., 30mL (~6.1 tsp) instead of the original 20mL (~4.1 tsp) to reach a 3g daily dose). Obviously, at the lower concentration, any given quantity of product will simply be used up faster than before. So now even at a target dose of only 2g/day, a 250mL bottle (which will cost around ~28.7 euro / ~$33.07 at current pricing) would only last you 12.5 days. At these prices, I honestly don't see a lot of takers for a product that is unproven in terms of its actual efficacy. However, I'm still planning on going ahead and purchasing a minimum 5L order for my own personal use. Is anyone still interested in any product amount at the current price point they have quoted? If the price were more reasonable, how much would y'all each be interested in purchasing? If I know how much product others might be willing to purchase (given the right price), I might be able to use that as a negotiating tactic to get them to lower their initial price.

[Fred Helms]

I'm in for at least 1L.  

[Kevinsan]

2L or more here. I think the vendor can process the payments. Have them set up a prepay pay link.

[Daniel Cooper]

Sorry to vanish guys.  My work schedule became a nightmare and I finally finished a major project.

 

If someone has picked up the group buy torch I'd like to be in for at least 1L.

 

 

 

[Cmdr_Burrito]

Hi Daniel,

Glad to see you back! Yeah I went ahead and picked up the torch. However, an issue is that the price I've been quoted for essentially the same product is much higher than the quote they provided you with. Unsure why the significant difference, but I'm going to try to negotiate them down.

At this point I've shipped them 3 lbs of Trehalose for testing purposes. When they receive the shipment, they will check to see if they can even work with the substance. No guarantee that they can successfully encapsulate it yet. We'll see.

Edited by Cmdr_Burrito, 13 August 2018 - 04:30 PM.