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Combatting prolactin inhibition of dopamine with an MAOI?

post ejaculatory depression dopamine post sex depression maoi moclobemide cabergoline

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#1 Intropersona

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 10:53 AM


Wondering if increasing dopamine with an maoi and using a partial agonist like caffeine could reduce prolactin as dopamine is inversely related to prolactin. Will increasing the amount of dopamine available with an reversible MAOI decrease prolactin or make up for its inhibitory effects or do you actually need a direct dopamine agonist (cabergoline) to open the channels to do that? How is prolactin inhibiting dopamine?

 

 

Dopamine restrains prolactin production, so the more dopamine there is, the less prolactin is released. - http://www.yourhormo...ones/prolactin/

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18477617

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/11739329

 

i suffer from high prolactin levels (as do some other men with post-sex depression), and can last for days on end. Wondering if increasing dopamine with an maoi and using a partial agonist like caffeine could reduce prolactin



#2 Intropersona

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 10:51 AM

Just tried it today with a small dose and notice some improvement in mood/motivation. I think this could definitely assist me in my recovery. I just need to understand how dopamine inhibits prolactin and whether prolactin will rebound once the MAOI wears off.



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#3 Intropersona

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 02:11 PM

It has come to my attention after reading a few reports on this that MAOI's generally increase prolactin. I wonder however if prolactin was already high prior to the ingestion of the MAOI whether more prolactin would be produced as it may be at some "saturation threshold" or what have you.



#4 Intropersona

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 02:15 PM

However this study confirms NO increase in prolactin after moclobemide (MAOI) and an increase in testosterone:

 

https://onlinelibrar....2002.tb00229.x

 

argh the conflicting evidence is real!



#5 BasicBiO

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 05:45 PM

Have you looked into B6 or P5P?



#6 Intropersona

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 02:10 PM

Have you looked into B6 or P5P?

 

I have not, very interesting. thankyou http://forums.rxmusc...ering-prolactin



#7 John250

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 03:54 PM

When I used to compete my prolactin was high from hgh. A little cabergoline goes a long way. 0.25-0.5mg 2x per week put my prolactin at <0. I used it for 6-7 years straight. After stopping my prolactin remained at <0 for about 4 months before returning to normal. Cabergoline is a dirty drug though. I’d opt for Pramipexole instead as it will also increase IGF levels where cabergoline can actually lower them unless your using HGH. Pramipexole dose should be very very low and taper up. I’d start at 50 “mcg” then go to 100mcg. I don’t see a need for higher than 200mcg. Pramipexole is a weird drug though. It can make you sleepy and then a few hours later you can be wide awake. I’m not sure why but this is my thinking.


adrenocorticoptropin(ACTH) starts the process of adrenaline. ACTH causes the adrenal cortex to release cortisol which will in turn increase epinephrine synthesis. In the below study it shows that prami increased cortisol which could explain the theory of why you wake up alert. I'm sure this is very dose dependant as there is probably a fine line of where prami can be soothing vs just a little too much which could increase cortisol therefor increase epinephrine and cause an awakened state.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/1350237/


If I was to ever try another dopamine agonist I’d try Ropinirole as it seems to be the best.
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#8 Intropersona

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:33 PM

When I used to compete my prolactin was high from hgh. A little cabergoline goes a long way. 0.25-0.5mg 2x per week put my prolactin at <0. I used it for 6-7 years straight. After stopping my prolactin remained at <0 for about 4 months before returning to normal. Cabergoline is a dirty drug though. I’d opt for Pramipexole instead as it will also increase IGF levels where cabergoline can actually lower them unless your using HGH. Pramipexole dose should be very very low and taper up. I’d start at 50 “mcg” then go to 100mcg. I don’t see a need for higher than 200mcg. Pramipexole is a weird drug though. It can make you sleepy and then a few hours later you can be wide awake. I’m not sure why but this is my thinking.


adrenocorticoptropin(ACTH) starts the process of adrenaline. ACTH causes the adrenal cortex to release cortisol which will in turn increase epinephrine synthesis. In the below study it shows that prami increased cortisol which could explain the theory of why you wake up alert. I'm sure this is very dose dependant as there is probably a fine line of where prami can be soothing vs just a little too much which could increase cortisol therefor increase epinephrine and cause an awakened state.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/1350237/


If I was to ever try another dopamine agonist I’d try Ropinirole as it seems to be the best.

 

Jesus, i don't think i even want to touch dopamine agonists. As far as I will go is 85% dark chocolate and that is plenty for me! 

 

I think the MAOI are already increasing my epinephrine levels which reduce my sleep quality too much. I think the best solution now is B6 + low dose MOAI + dark chocolate.


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#9 Intropersona

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 10:59 AM

Just confirming the B6 has made a very noticeable improvement on my prolactin levels and sex drive and recovery. thanks again


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#10 John250

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 04:37 PM

Just confirming the B6 has made a very noticeable improvement on my prolactin levels and sex drive and recovery. thanks again


Ashwagandha, Macuna Pruriens, Vitamin E and Zinc will also help lower prolactin. Micro doses of Pramipexole will help as well. A little goes a long way. 25-50”mcg” and sides should be minimal if used short term. Unlike Cabergoline, Pramipexole will actually increase igf levels opposed to lowering them.

Edited by John250, 05 June 2018 - 04:41 PM.

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#11 John250

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 04:39 PM

.......... double post sorry

Edited by John250, 05 June 2018 - 04:41 PM.


#12 Zed

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 04:31 AM

If I was to ever try another dopamine agonist I’d try Ropinirole as it seems to be the best.

 

Well you better start saving for a large betting bank. :)  These are "gateway to sin" drugs ..LOL

https://www.npr.org/...-gateway-to-sin
 



#13 Zed

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 04:35 AM

Jesus, i don't think i even want to touch dopamine agonists. As far as I will go is 85% dark chocolate and that is plenty for me! 

 

I think the MAOI are already increasing my epinephrine levels which reduce my sleep quality too much. I think the best solution now is B6 + low dose MOAI + dark chocolate.

 

What about Tyrosine? That's a precursor amino acid for L-Dopa.
Also whats with dark chocolate ..I thought that was for Theobromine - the feel good neurotransmitter ..does it also stim dopamine ?



#14 Intropersona

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 03:10 AM

Ashwagandha, Macuna Pruriens, Vitamin E and Zinc will also help lower prolactin. Micro doses of Pramipexole will help as well. A little goes a long way. 25-50”mcg” and sides should be minimal if used short term. Unlike Cabergoline, Pramipexole will actually increase igf levels opposed to lowering them.

 

Yeah thanks, i am also taking zinc and 50mg of 10:1 macuna puriens. It also increased my orgasm sensations quite notably.


What about Tyrosine? That's a precursor amino acid for L-Dopa.
Also whats with dark chocolate ..I thought that was for Theobromine - the feel good neurotransmitter ..does it also stim dopamine ?

 

I was more relating to the effect of caffeine on dopamine but... Theobromine [1] is found together with caffeine and phenethylamine in chocolate. It has a similar but lesser stimulant effect than caffeine. Pharmacologically it acts as a phosphodiesterase inhibitor and a non-selective adenosine receptor antagonist.

Although there is no direct effect on dopamine receptors, there are probably three indirect effects.

Firstly, antagonism of all adenosine receptors means that their sleep promoting effects are blocked leading to general arousal, and antagonism specifically of the A2a adenosine receptor stops its suppression of dopamine release in the CNS, so increasing dopaminergic activity.

Secondly, phosphodiesterase inhibitors allow the second messenger cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP) to have a longer duration of action when its release inside a neuron is triggered by certain neurotransmitters. For dopamine this means the D1 and D5 dopamine receptor subtypes [2] will have an amplified effect when activated. There will also be effects on other receptors that normally increase cAMP levels, e.g. noradrenaline acting on adrenergic β1, β2 and β3 receptors [3] and serotonin acting on 5-HT4, 5-HT6 and 5-HT7 receptors. [4] This effect is probably less important than adenosine receptor antagonism because theobromine is more soluble in water than fat, [5] so is more likely to interact with cell surface receptors than pass across the lipid membrane into neurons (and other cells) to affect phosphodiesterase.

The third way theobromine will affect dopamine is a rather indiscriminate effect via adenosine-dopamine receptor heteromers, which in this case are complexes of receptors that have opposing effects (see my answer to Do receptors at the synapses of a neuron follow certain patterns? E.g. do certain types of receptors cluster together?). The following receptor heteromers have been identified:

Adenosine 1A receptor (A1AR) – dopamine D1 receptor (D1R)
A2AR – D2R
A2AR – D3R
A2AR – D4R
A2AR – cannabinoid receptor type 1 (CB1R) – D2R
A2AR – D2R – metabotropic glutamate receptor 5 (mGluR5)

Thus the effect of a non-selective adenosine receptor antagonist like theobromine will be to increase the effect of dopamine at these receptors. D1 and D5 receptors are excitatory, while the D2 family of receptors (D2, D3 and D4) normally inhibits the generation of an action potential, so the net effect is hard to predict but will generally enhance the effect of dopamine.

Confused? In summary, I would guess the mood elevating and addictive properties of chocolate are partly due to these pharmacological effects, and of course partly due to the delicious taste.

[1] Theobromine
[2] Dopamine receptor
[3] Adrenergic receptor
[4] 5-HT receptor
[5] Theobromine solubility


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#15 John250

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 03:25 AM

Interesting study here. Caffeine did not increase heart rate but increased blood pressure. Theobromine increased heart rate but did not increase blood pressure.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3672386/

#16 Zed

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 10:03 AM

Yeah thanks, i am also taking zinc and 50mg of 10:1 macuna puriens. It also increased my orgasm sensations quite notably.


 

I was more relating to the effect of caffeine on dopamine but... Theobromine [1] is found together with caffeine and phenethylamine in chocolate. It has a similar but lesser stimulant effect than caffeine. Pharmacologically it acts as a phosphodiesterase inhibitor and a non-selective adenosine receptor antagonist.

Although there is no direct effect on dopamine receptors, there are probably three indirect effects.

Firstly, antagonism of all adenosine receptors means that their sleep promoting effects are blocked leading to general arousal, and antagonism specifically of the A2a adenosine receptor stops its suppression of dopamine release in the CNS, so increasing dopaminergic activity.

Secondly, phosphodiesterase inhibitors allow the second messenger cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP) to have a longer duration of action when its release inside a neuron is triggered by certain neurotransmitters. For dopamine this means the D1 and D5 dopamine receptor subtypes [2] will have an amplified effect when activated. There will also be effects on other receptors that normally increase cAMP levels, e.g. noradrenaline acting on adrenergic β1, β2 and β3 receptors [3] and serotonin acting on 5-HT4, 5-HT6 and 5-HT7 receptors. [4] This effect is probably less important than adenosine receptor antagonism because theobromine is more soluble in water than fat, [5] so is more likely to interact with cell surface receptors than pass across the lipid membrane into neurons (and other cells) to affect phosphodiesterase.

The third way theobromine will affect dopamine is a rather indiscriminate effect via adenosine-dopamine receptor heteromers, which in this case are complexes of receptors that have opposing effects (see my answer to Do receptors at the synapses of a neuron follow certain patterns? E.g. do certain types of receptors cluster together?). The following receptor heteromers have been identified:

Adenosine 1A receptor (A1AR) – dopamine D1 receptor (D1R)
A2AR – D2R
A2AR – D3R
A2AR – D4R
A2AR – cannabinoid receptor type 1 (CB1R) – D2R
A2AR – D2R – metabotropic glutamate receptor 5 (mGluR5)

Thus the effect of a non-selective adenosine receptor antagonist like theobromine will be to increase the effect of dopamine at these receptors. D1 and D5 receptors are excitatory, while the D2 family of receptors (D2, D3 and D4) normally inhibits the generation of an action potential, so the net effect is hard to predict but will generally enhance the effect of dopamine.

Confused? In summary, I would guess the mood elevating and addictive properties of chocolate are partly due to these pharmacological effects, and of course partly due to the delicious taste.

[1] Theobromine
[2] Dopamine receptor
[3] Adrenergic receptor
[4] 5-HT receptor
[5] Theobromine solubility

Wow - great research on Theobromine thanks.

You may also want to experiment with selegiline (especially stacked with Mucuna pruniens) . Its primarily a MAO-B but its metabolites are quite stimulating and are  prolactin inhibiting.  



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#17 Zed

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 12:31 PM

It has come to my attention after reading a few reports on this that MAOI's generally increase prolactin

I find this difficult to understand.

A MAOB i would increase dopamine levels and that will drive prolactin levels down.

A MAOA will increase both serotonin and dopamine so its possible depending upon the substrates available and the relative ratio of serotonin to dopamine that increased serotonin may cause prolactin levels to rise.

 

However I cant find any links regarding this. Can you link to the reports you have read ?







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: post ejaculatory depression, dopamine, post sex depression, maoi, moclobemide, cabergoline

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