278 replies to this topic

[Galaxyshock]

Damn that's pretty crazy. Kinda thought something like insulin would only be used by the biggest guys with the full 3D-look. I assumed Classic Physique guys would do somewhat similar cycles as they did in the 70s as that's the look they're going for, but then again why wouldn't they use all the latest advancements as the competition is hard.

 

What is it that causes that "bubble gut" that's become a real problem in the heavy weight class when the midsection starts to grow like belly but it's not fat as abs are still visible?

[Werper]

>>What is it that causes that "bubble gut" that's become a real problem in the heavy weight class when the midsection starts to grow like belly but it's not fat as abs are still visible?<<

 

I believe it's the GH causing your internal organs to grow....

[John250]

The gut comes from several things. One being from force feeding. These guys eat over 10,000 cal a day coming from meets eggs complex carbs, etc. you stretch your stomach when you eat that much.

Second with large amounts of HGH and IGF it will affect the receptors in the stomach which will cause growth but when combined with insulin it will cause even more growth. Also the internal organs grow. I can’t remember who but on one bodybuilders autopsy they said his heart was the size of an NFL football. So all those combinations contribute to the gut distention as well as genetics.

[triguy]

Ipa+mod is great. Doses of ipa need to be higher than say ghrp2 or ghrp6 but it has virtually no side effects. 500mcg with 100mcg mod is a great combo. Plus ipa gives a second gh pulse so I recommend it before bed as well as it will work synergistically with your natural GH output.

As far as AAS my opinion is to either do one cycle per year or just stay on all the time. You can only shut off and turn on your HPTA so many times before it stays shut off. I would limit the cycle to 14 weeks max and incorporate hcg at 500iu 2x/wk “during” the cycle followed by a 30-40 day post cycle of Clomid at 50mg/day and nolvadex if you want at 10-20mg/day

I would still suggest running a low dose of testosterone with Primo and/or Anavar. 200-300mg/wk test with 400-500mg primo and/or 50mg Anavar per day. Limit anti-estrogen usage only as needed. People take way too high of doses of anti-estrogen and it tanks your levels which will not let you add muscle and cause a ton of side effects. Around .25mg arimidex 2-3x per week is plenty to combat aromatizing from that dose of testosterone. primo/var will not aromatize so no worries there. I would also suggest a low-dose of HGH as that works excellent for body re-comp and synergistically with AAS. If you can get pharmaceutical grade HGH only 1.5-3iu’s/day is needed.

 

 

hypothetically

 

why use growth when there is IGF?    

[triguy]

I like classic physique much better than men’s physique. The board shorts are ridiculous you should have legs if you’re going to be on stage. It’s just a beauty pageant. Just like women’s bikini class. Any ectomorphic woman with halfway decent genetics can get her pro card these days in bikini. With classic physique it’s much better for the guys who are closer to 6 feet and over. This way they can still compete around 200-215lbs but if they were to do open bodybuilding they would need to be at least 250+
What’s funny is I designed the diets and cycles for a lot of amateurs and upcoming pros in all categories and you would be surprised how much gear the guys in classic and men’s physique use. Just as much if not more as open heavy weight bodybuilding.
The only difference is genetics. And ectomorph on a ton of gear versus a mesomorph on a ton of gear is what makes the difference of 215lbs on stage vs 280lbs.

I did not design this guys cycle as I don’t believe in high doses but for an example this is what a buddy of mine used for his contest prep. He’s 6 foot one and weighs 215 pounds on stage.

Off-season months 1-4 for growing.
2000mg/wk EQ
1200mg/week Test Cypionate
800mg/week Deca
600mg/wk Masterone Enanthate
100mg/day Anadrol(weeks 1-8)
100mg/day Turinabol (weeks 8-16)
8iu’s/day HGH
30iu’s/day Insulin
25mg/day MK-677
10mg/wk cjc1295 with dac
100mcg Ghrp-2 3x/day

Pre Contest 8 weeks out
700mg/wk test propionate
700mg/wk Tren Acetate
700mg/wk Masterone Propionate
100mg/day Anavar
100mg/day Winstrol
6iu’s HGH
10iu’s insulin


Then 12days before going on stage
50mg Test prop/day
50mg Tren Ace/day
50mg Mast prop/day
40mg Halo/day
Synthol in lagging body parts
Lasix and Dyazide 3 days out

 

 

250,  Here does not seem like a calculated program.    He is taking everything available ???

 

 

Is this the norm?   Is this the amounts that are needed to be competitive?

"Plus ipa gives a second gh pulse so I recommend it before bed as well as it will work synergistically with your natural GH output"

 

do you have a study "2nd output"

 

What are your thoughts on NOT timing exo GH with endo GH?

[John250]

hypothetically

why use growth when there is IGF?

Hgh has properties that I GF doesn’t. If your main is fat loss then HGH is the way to go. For adding muscle IGF is better but actually MK677 blows it away. Plus your receptors can desensitize after two long of HGH so it’s good to switch to IGF every now and then. HGH can also negatively impact insulin where IGF has the opposite affect.

[John250]

250, Here does not seem like a calculated program. He is taking everything available ???


Is this the norm? Is this the amounts that are needed to be competitive?

"Plus ipa gives a second gh pulse so I recommend it before bed as well as it will work synergistically with your natural GH output"

do you have a study "2nd output"

What are your thoughts on NOT timing exo GH with endo GH?

Surprisingly it is the norm. He goes a little more excessive in the off-season but pre-contest guys run even more drugs than he did. The entire sport is about genetics. You have guys that can look the same on a fraction of that does regardless of how hard they train, diet, etc. genetics play a huge role.

Exogenous HGH has a pretty long half life. I’d have to look up the charts I forgot but I believe when you inject it intramuscular its around 6-8hrs vs SubQ 10-12hrs. As far as timing goes if you are under 30 I would suggest using it in the morning only but if you are over 30 your natural production is probably not that high anyway so there’s more benefits to use it before bed. The best method is to take 1/3 of your dose in the morning and the other 2/3 before bed. You don’t have to worry about disrupting natural production like you would when using steroids but long-term use could still affect natural production. That’s why every three or four months I suggest taking 4-6 weeks off and using MK677 or peptides like a ghrp with a ghrh as this will actually help your natural production.

I believe the second igf spike from IPA is talked about in this thread here. This is a very long thread but it will teach you everything you ever wanted to know about peptides.

http://www.professio...sic-guides.html

[triguy]

Hgh has properties that I GF doesn’t. If your main is fat loss then HGH is the way to go. For adding muscle IGF is better but actually MK677 blows it away. Plus your receptors can desensitize after two long of HGH so it’s good to switch to IGF every now and then. HGH can also negatively impact insulin where IGF has the opposite affect.

 

 

YES!   amazing how so many guys today are pre diabetic from 12-20's of growth a day!  

 

Do you have any studies showing HGH "other" properties that are beneficial (I do not need fat loss.....AS YOU CAN SEE LOLOL

 

IGF!  lol.   wow!   talk about putting you in HYPO

[triguy]

Surprisingly it is the norm. He goes a little more excessive in the off-season but pre-contest guys run even more drugs than he did. The entire sport is about genetics. You have guys that can look the same on a fraction of that does regardless of how hard they train, diet, etc. genetics play a huge role.

Exogenous HGH has a pretty long half life. I’d have to look up the charts I forgot but I believe when you inject it intramuscular its around 6-8hrs vs SubQ 10-12hrs. As far as timing goes if you are under 30 I would suggest using it in the morning only but if you are over 30 your natural production is probably not that high anyway so there’s more benefits to use it before bed. The best method is to take 1/3 of your dose in the morning and the other 2/3 before bed. You don’t have to worry about disrupting natural production like you would when using steroids but long-term use could still affect natural production. That’s why every three or four months I suggest taking 4-6 weeks off and using MK677 or peptides like a ghrp with a ghrh as this will actually help your natural production.

I believe the second igf spike from IPA is talked about in this thread here. This is a very long thread but it will teach you everything you ever wanted to know about peptides.

http://www.professio...sic-guides.html

 

 

"That’s why every three or four months I suggest taking 4-6 weeks off and using MK677 or peptides like a ghrp with a ghrh as this will actually help your natural production"

 

  Great minds think alike LOL.   I have the same exact philosophy.    

 

When I researched I felt these would boost NATURAL production

Ghrp2

Hexarelin

MK677

 

 

........what are your thoughts on adding cjc/no dac to ghrp2??  or hexarelin or MK

[John250]

YES! amazing how so many guys today are pre diabetic from 12-20's of growth a day!

Do you have any studies showing HGH "other" properties that are beneficial (I do not need fat loss.....AS YOU CAN SEE LOLOL

IGF! lol. wow! talk about putting you in HYPO

I would have to find the exact studies but I remember they mentioned something along the lines of when taking HGH and getting aN HGH serum test you will have elevated HGH and IGF-1. But using IGF-LR3 will not actually increase IGF-1 bloodwork. I know because I’ve gotten tested. A lot has to do with Igfbp-3. I need to research it more but I think it has something to do with your buddies limitation on how much you can produce.

I think it’s talked about here.
http://www.rplab.be/...e_treatment.pdf

Another thing to watch for on HGH is your thyroid. Doesn’t happen to everyone and usually it’s only when you use higher doses but it can lower T4 production which is why a lot of people use tea for while using HGH. I tested my full thyroid panel with and without HGH at several different doses and for me it wasn’t affected but mini it can be. Especially women.

You shouldn’t get hypo if you use moderate doses. 40mcg IGF 1hr pre workout is what I prefer shot intramuscular. It peaks at 1hr which is when you would start working out so that would be the time to flood your body with fast acting carbs like cyclic dextrine and lots of amino acids.

Edited by John250, 19 July 2018 - 07:36 PM.

[John250]

"That’s why every three or four months I suggest taking 4-6 weeks off and using MK677 or peptides like a ghrp with a ghrh as this will actually help your natural production"

Great minds think alike LOL. I have the same exact philosophy.

When I researched I felt these would boost NATURAL production
Ghrp2
Hexarelin
MK677


........what are your thoughts on adding cjc/no dac to ghrp2?? or hexarelin or MK

Hex is the strongest peptide. 100mcg hex will yield the same igf spikes as 100mcg ghrp2 with 100mcg cjc no dac. The problem is is the hardest on your pituitary so it should be limited to only one shot per day where Ghrp2 or 6 along with cjc no dac can be used three, four or five times a day to Pulse igf with minimal impact on the pituitary. I think for you since you were already lean and you’re looking for more size the best combo you could possibly do would be Mk677(12.5-25mg/day) with 4-6g cjc “with” dac(long acting cjc)

Mk677 is a long acting ghrp. Cjc with dac is a long acting ghrh. Combing a ghrp with a ghrh yeilds the highest igf spikes. By using both Mk677 and Cjc with dac your body will constantly be pulsing IGF. Probably like 10 to 15 pulses per day. It can put a strain on the pituitary but then again just limit it to maybe 2-3months. I would love to use that combo but the lethargy is always too much for me but many people don’t get the lethargy. With the cjc still split your weekly dose up to daily shots. It says you can take just one or two bigger shots per week but the bigger shots will cause a lot of flushing and a rapid increase in blood pressure versus smaller more frequent shots.

Edited by John250, 19 July 2018 - 07:43 PM.

[Yuri]

What's the advantage of using MK677 in comparison to peptides - for example, combo of Ipamorelin and CJC 1295 with DAC?

 

Apart from oral form vs injections.

 

Peptides have been studied a lot, while MK677 is a relatively new stuff

[triguy]

What's the advantage of using MK677 in comparison to peptides - for example, combo of Ipamorelin and CJC 1295 with DAC?

 

Apart from oral form vs injections.

 

Peptides have been studied a lot, while MK677 is a relatively new stuff

 

 

I.M.O.  (why mk677)

 

1.  ease of use

2. I believe MK677 & CJC 1296  GHRH's, whereas IPAMORELIN is not.    Anyone confirm with a study?

3.   much cheaper

Hex is the strongest peptide. 100mcg hex will yield the same igf spikes as 100mcg ghrp2 with 100mcg cjc no dac. The problem is is the hardest on your pituitary so it should be limited to only one shot per day where Ghrp2 or 6 along with cjc no dac can be used three, four or five times a day to Pulse igf with minimal impact on the pituitary. I think for you since you were already lean and you’re looking for more size the best combo you could possibly do would be Mk677(12.5-25mg/day) with 4-6g cjc “with” dac(long acting cjc)

Mk677 is a long acting ghrp. Cjc with dac is a long acting ghrh. Combing a ghrp with a ghrh yeilds the highest igf spikes. By using both Mk677 and Cjc with dac your body will constantly be pulsing IGF. Probably like 10 to 15 pulses per day. It can put a strain on the pituitary but then again just limit it to maybe 2-3months. I would love to use that combo but the lethargy is always too much for me but many people don’t get the lethargy. With the cjc still split your weekly dose up to daily shots. It says you can take just one or two bigger shots per week but the bigger shots will cause a lot of flushing and a rapid increase in blood pressure versus smaller more frequent shots.

 

 

study that shows the DOUBLE spike in GH release

 

https://www.research...ne_secretagogue

[John250]

What's the advantage of using MK677 in comparison to peptides - for example, combo of Ipamorelin and CJC 1295 with DAC?

Apart from oral form vs injections.

Peptides have been studied a lot, while MK677 is a relatively new stuff

Mk677 is basically a long acting ghrp6. It constantly pulses gh all day where other ghrp’s like ipam, ghrp2 and ghrp6 pulse only when you inject them. Now cjc with dac is a long acting ghrh. Ghrh’s Pulse gh but much weaker than ghrp’s which is why it’s always best to either run just s ghrp or even better a ghrp with a ghrh. Mk677 with cjc “with” dac will synergistically pulse gh all day long leading to the best gains. You can put a lot of size on with that combo but you need around 4-7mg cjc with dac. 500mg per day minimum.

Also keep in mind that synthetic hgh has synergy with ghrp’s but blunts ghrh’s up to 80% so it’s not worth using a long acting ghrh like cjc with dac when using synthetic hgh.

[triguy]

Mk677 is basically a long acting ghrp6. It constantly pulses gh all day where other ghrp’s like ipam, ghrp2 and ghrp6 pulse only when you inject them. Now cjc with dac is a long acting ghrh. Ghrh’s Pulse gh but much weaker than ghrp’s which is why it’s always best to either run just s ghrp or even better a ghrp with a ghrh. Mk677 with cjc “with” dac will synergistically pulse gh all day long leading to the best gains. You can put a lot of size on with that combo but you need around 4-7mg cjc with dac. 500mg per day minimum.

Also keep in mind that synthetic hgh has synergy with ghrp’s but blunts ghrh’s up to 80% so it’s not worth using a long acting ghrh like cjc with dac when using synthetic hgh.

 

 

When one is using exon. GH, what would complement?

 

mk?

peptides?   if so which ones??

[John250]

When one is using exon. GH, what would complement?

mk?
peptides? if so which ones??

For size nothing will beat insulin with hgh. Hgh actually makes everything work better so when you’re using steroids you’ll get better results as well. As far as peptides pretty much anything goes(all ghrp’s, igf-lr3,igf-des,etc..) except for ghrh’s like cjc with dac as synthetic HGH will hinder about 80% of cjc’s actions.

Edited by John250, 22 July 2018 - 01:51 AM.

[John250]

I never used high doses of anabolic steroids. I was always a bigger fan of more peptides with insulin and HGH. Below is a picture when I was my biggest during off-season bulk. 5’11” 265lbs. For AAS I was only on 500 mg testosterone and 400mg Deca which is actually pretty low compared to what guys use these days especially for my size. But I got my biggest from my peptide HGH in insulin protocol.

It’s all about timing the peaks of HGH with insulin for synergy. What I did was

10am 2hrs pre workout 2iu Serostim IM. It peaks at two hours when injected IM
Humalog insulin 6-8iu 10:30am it peaks at 11am and 2nd peak 11:30-12pm
Right before workout at 11am I would inject 2more Iu Serostim I.V.
If you know what you’re doing this is safe because it’s pharmaceutical grade. But always make sure everything is sterile. When HGH is injected intravenous it creates a very large HGH serum increase which is more responsible for muscle growth. When injected SubQ and IM it releases more IGF which is more responsible for fat loss but also still anabolic. so I timed the peaks for the IM gh to hit when the 2nd insulin peak hit and when the first insulin peak hit. During that entire frame I had a drink which consisted of 120-150g waxy maize/cyclic dextrin with 40g bcaa’s, 40g eaa’s, 10g creatine and 10g glutamine. Your body is an anabolic window at that time frame and will absorb everything including fat which is why I had no fat in my diet from around 10am-4pm
Post workout I would shoot my 50mcg igf-Lr3 and pre bed another 2iu HGH SubQ. I only did this 3 to 4 days a week while training and a non-training days I kept carbs lower and used Metformin to balance insulin sensitivity. I stayed relatively lean for bulking and putting on about 22 pounds in three months. Still even had abs a little bit. I was actually healthier on this type of a cycle as my anabolic‘s or lower. Blood pressure, lipids, liver, etc. were not affected much at all and I got really good clean games opposed to guys using crazy amounts of anabolic‘s like over two or 3 g a week.

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[Yuri]

Mk677 is basically a long acting ghrp6. 

 

Does it mean that it has all side effects of GHRP6 including prolactin going up?

[John250]

Does it mean that it has all side effects of GHRP6 including prolactin going up?

Prolactin and cortisol can increase the first two weeks of using it but if you start at a low dose and titrate it shouldn’t be an issue. The only other side effects other than lethargy and increased hunger is an increase in fasting glucose levels but not a ton maybe 5 to 10 points Max. Typically that also diminishes but at around the one-month mark.

[Yuri]

 lethargy 

 

1. Is lethargy the side effect of too high dose?

 

I personally have had the experience only with ipamorelin and CJC 1295 DAC and on the contrrary had increased energy/concentration level during all course. I too small doses though (anti aging)

 

2. I read that CJC 1295 DAC is safe to use up to 4 weeks (for example, Ben Greenfield in his blog says this). The reason is the possible damage to the pituatari gland. What's you take?

 

Ben says that he prefers CJC 1295 w/o DAC. However, the advantage of DAC version is that it shall be injected once per week

 

Is the same true for MK677?

[John250]

1. Is lethargy the side effect of too high dose?


Yes but it really varies by the individual. For example I get Lethargy from even a very low-dose but I have several friends who don’t get it even that high doses.

I personally have had the experience only with ipamorelin and CJC 1295 DAC and on the contrrary had increased energy/concentration level during all course. I too small doses though (anti aging)

That is common especially if you had a GH deficiency. Not everybody gets that fatigue just like not everybody gets the feelings of hypoglycemia, etc. it really varies on the person that’s why it’s always best to start low on everything and titrate.

2. I read that CJC 1295 DAC is safe to use up to 4 weeks (for example, Ben Greenfield in his blog says this). The reason is the possible damage to the pituatari gland. What's you take?

You can run it much longer than that. Unless you have an underlying pituitary disorder I know several people who have used it for up to six months and when they went off there were no issues with rebounding.

Ben says that he prefers CJC 1295 w/o DAC. However, the advantage of DAC version is that it shall be injected once per week

That is an advantage but also a disadvantage. A larger single shot will cause a very high increase in blood pressure and can cause flushing. Even with that version you still want to inject it daily at lower doses. Same thing applies with testosterone one injection per week is going to give more side effects and less results opposed to splitting it in smaller doses to keep blood levels more steady.

Is the same true for MK677?

It has a 24-30 hour half life so once per day is the norm for Mk677 no need to split it up in multiple daily doses. Unlike cjc it will not cause a spike in blood pressure and more side effects if taken in a larger dose once per week. Probably has to do with it being oral as well.

Edited by John250, 22 July 2018 - 07:00 PM.

[Yuri]

Another thing to watch for on HGH is your thyroid. Doesn’t happen to everyone and usually it’s only when you use higher doses but it can lower T4 production which is why a lot of people use tea for while using HGH. 

 

John, could you clarify which tea people use? (usual black tea?) why - does it influence T4 production?

[John250]

John, could you clarify which tea people use? (usual black tea?) why - does it influence T4 production?

Sorry that was a typo. “Tea” was supposed to say “T4.”

[Yuri]

John, did you have any experience with GHB?

 

As I understand it raises HGH stromger than most peptides and is relatively safe + very good for sexual performance & libido. However, also there is information about addiction to GHB. On the other side every strong medicine may cause addiction - it depends on dosage and routine.

 

Also according to Internet a sideback is temporaral rise of prolactin. 

 

GHB is forbidden in US but legal in Europe.

[John250]

John, did you have any experience with GHB?

As I understand it raises HGH stromger than most peptides and is relatively safe + very good for sexual performance & libido. However, also there is information about addiction to GHB. On the other side every strong medicine may cause addiction - it depends on dosage and routine.

Also according to Internet a sideback is temporaral rise of prolactin.

GHB is forbidden in US but legal in Europe.

15 years ago when I was in my fraternity that’s all I would use on the weekends instead of drinking. I loved GHB. Didn’t notice any anabolic effects from it it was just nice having an option to get messed up while not being hung over and catabolic. Have to be weary with it as continuous use can cause a pretty nasty withdrawl just like benzodiazepines. It doesn’t come even close to raising IGF/GH like peptides, hgh,etc...

Edited by John250, 24 July 2018 - 10:38 PM.

[Rocket]

How do you feel about prami and hgh? I've ran pram when on deca, EOD, low dose, and for something that is supposed to increase hgh production, none of my labs showed anymore than a couple of points in the positive.

Edited by Rocket, 26 July 2018 - 01:02 AM.

[John250]

How do you feel about prami and hgh? I've ran pram when on deca, EOD, low dose, and for something that is supposed to increase hgh production, none of my labs showed anymore than a couple of points in the positive.

It will work for lowering prolactin side effects from HGH but you really don’t have to worry about that unless you are going over 4iu’s/day. You would want to limit the use because it’s a dopamine agonist and can come with some side effects if used for too long. It’s effect on increasing hi GF levels is minimal I would definitely not use it for that reason as the cons will outweigh the pro’s. The best stack for increasing HGH in IGF levels would be Hgh, igf-Lr3 and mk677.

Edited by John250, 26 July 2018 - 02:55 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

I took MK-677 for twelve days but I had to stop because the tiredness was too much. I couldn't do much lifting because I simply had no energy. I took 10mg then dropped down to 5mg. The first days the fatigue was heavy then it got a bit better but I still struggled with it. Maybe I'll try it again some time with modafinil or something to remain functional. Mk677 did seem to increase the anabolic response to lifting and the muscles felt tull all the time, also the appetite increase was there.

[John250]

I took MK-677 for twelve days but I had to stop because the tiredness was too much. I couldn't do much lifting because I simply had no energy. I took 10mg then dropped down to 5mg. The first days the fatigue was heavy then it got a bit better but I still struggled with it. Maybe I'll try it again some time with modafinil or something to remain functional. Mk677 did seem to increase the anabolic response to lifting and the muscles felt tull all the time, also the appetite increase was there.

You’re like me with the lethargy even at low doses. I think the only way I got through the couple times I tried it was because I was on 80+mg Adderall. The first two weeks are the worst so if you decide to try it again try and ride it out for a couple months the results are much better at the 6 to 8 week mark. I’m sure you will be able to get through with stimulants since you’re not a big stim user. Something interesting about MK 677 is the very first dose you take increases HGH levels over 50% and then from there on out it’s a lot less. I don’t think anybody has discovered why that first dosing causes it and how long you need to be off it for the first dose to give that boost but a few people are experimenting with a once per week high dose to see the benefits.

[Yuri]

My wife had the tiredness  from CJC 1295 DAC (1000 mkg). Have you heard about it?

 

No problem from Ipamorelin.

 

I also used both and no problems

 

P.S. Another question - after 2 months course  how long with IGF-1 be high and when it will retirn to porecourse values?