278 replies to this topic

[John250]

I didn't have time to read the whole thread, so sorry if the question has already come up:

Which oral anabolic steroids are the safest in your opinion?

It’s always best to use testosterone during a cycle and you can stack it with orals but as far as orals go:

Proviron is very safe no liver toxicity and doesn’t impact lipids.
Average dose 50mg/day. You wont really gain much size with this but it will increase free testosterone levels(DHT) and helps a lot with libido. It’s a nice hardening agent as well if you’re already very lean. No estrogen conversion.

Anavar is liver friendly and pretty safe all around except it can decrease HDL but not in everyone. It’s probably the safest oral for the most gains you get from it. 50mg/day is a good safe dose. No estrogen conversion.

Winstrol is great but it does impact lipids and can dry your joints out a little. 50-75mg/day. No estrogen conversion.

Turinabol is one of my favorites. Gives strength and fullness like D-bol and Anadrol but without the estrogenic side effects. It’s mild on the liver but does impact lipids. 40-60mg/day. No estrogen conversion.

Those are probably the safest orals. But remember even if you only use orals you still need to use Clomid for post cycle therapy to recover natural testosterone levels.

[Malf]

That still doesn’t necessarily mean people get freaky huge. There is more that goes into it than just how much muscle you can put on. The shape of the muscle, aesthetics, etc. or play a huge factor. Take flex wheeler for example. He naturally has no myostatin gene but he competed on stage it only 225 pounds. He had one of the freakiest cartoon like physics of all time. His 225 pounds looked like 275 pounds because he had small bones and joints and paper thin skin.

 

Wow Flex looks at least 280 pounds but only weighed 220s thats amazing his bones must have been small, he was truly a freak he was 5 foot 10 as well so tall for a bodybuilder at the time, most guys today are like 5 foot 5 to 5 foot 7 now

 

I liked Shawn Rays physique, there was a muscle mania champion from Indonesia named Ade Rai that guy also had some tiny bones his wrist and ankles were small yet the guy at close to 6 foot tall weighed only 200 pounds he looked about 240 but his bone structure was small or not as dense giving him the illusion of a guy who weighed more. I still can't believe Ade Rai only weighed 200 he looks at least 240

 

Edited by Malf, 18 October 2018 - 10:33 PM.

[Phoebus]

can ostarine/ mk 2866 have a negative effect on libido? 

 

I thought it did suppress my libido but then i realized i was taking lions mane at the same time and that will definitely suppress libido. Stopped both and libido is back but want to start on the osterine again but now worried about libido

 

thoughts? 

[John250]

can ostarine/ mk 2866 have a negative effect on libido?

I thought it did suppress my libido but then i realized i was taking lions mane at the same time and that will definitely suppress libido. Stopped both and libido is back but want to start on the osterine again but now worried about libido

thoughts?

Yes it certainly can if your not using testosterone with it. I didn’t know lions mane reduce libido. Would it be from 5 alpha reductase? I thought only Reishi and white/yellow jelly mushrooms were the only mushrooms that negatively impacted DHT.

[unbreakable]

Thanks for the answer!

 

Is there a relatively safe oral anabolic steroid that gives a lot of energy (physically, mentally) and lifts mood [great "on" feeling]? Massive mass gain... not being important.

 

 

[John250]

Thanks for the answer!

Is there a relatively safe oral anabolic steroid that gives a lot of energy (physically, mentally) and lifts mood [great "on" feeling]? Massive mass gain... not being important.

Not really. If your testosterone is low you will notice an increase of energy and overall mood if you supplement with testosterone but typically steroids don’t give you stimulant like energy. They will help with endurance and recovery from workouts though. For what you’re describing would be neurotransmitter related.

[VanWinkle]

I'm not a body builder, but curious to ask if any of you have heard about Alex Goldstein's homeopathic gel that stimulates your pituitary to produce endogenous HGH?

I've been on it since 8/27/2018 with some profound improvements to my health. I've had MS for 23 years, in a wheelchair for last 7 years, yeah opposite of you guys LOL!

Since February the spasticity getting really bad, wake up with painful leg spasms an cramps. 5 day after I started rubbing this gel on my wrists, me legs relaxed, no spasms.

Energy way up, instead of 20 sit & stand exercises can now do 90. Sleeping deeply.

 

So it's right there in WebMD,   "What’s the Link Between Hormones and MS?"
"MS symptoms tend to be more severe in people with low HGH levels." And that more HGH normalizes all your thyroid and sex hormone levels,  which can improve chronic health conditions.

 

Then found this just published Sept 2018 Ysrraelit MC, Correale J. Immunology. doi: 10.1111/imm.13004."Impact of sex hormones on immune function and MS development "

States: The 4 main sex hormones that have been shown to affect the immune system are estrogen, progesterone, androgen, and prolactin.
Conclusion: Because of the effect that sex hormones exert on the immune system, it is very probable that these hormones also influence the prevalence and the course of MS.

 

So this is being market as an anti-aging supplement, an alternative to expensive HGH injections that have a risk profile.

Don't know if it can give you the levels you need for body building, but might be worth looking into, and I'd love any feedback so I can understand this better.

I showed the active ingredients to my physicians and she said "looks harmless".

HGH 30X (somatropin) a lab created from plant based amino acids chains

THYROIDINUM 8X GLANDULA

SUPRARENALIS SUIS 6X

 

[John250]

I'm not a body builder, but curious to ask if any of you have heard about Alex Goldstein's homeopathic gel that stimulates your pituitary to produce endogenous HGH?

I've been on it since 8/27/2018 with some profound improvements to my health. I've had MS for 23 years, in a wheelchair for last 7 years, yeah opposite of you guys LOL!

Since February the spasticity getting really bad, wake up with painful leg spasms an cramps. 5 day after I started rubbing this gel on my wrists, me legs relaxed, no spasms.
Energy way up, instead of 20 sit & stand exercises can now do 90. Sleeping deeply.

So it's right there in WebMD, "What’s the Link Between Hormones and MS?"
"MS symptoms tend to be more severe in people with low HGH levels." And that more HGH normalizes all your thyroid and sex hormone levels, which can improve chronic health conditions.

Then found this just published Sept 2018 Ysrraelit MC, Correale J.Immunology. doi: 10.1111/imm.13004."Impact of sex hormones on immune function and MS development "
States: The 4 main sex hormones that have been shown to affect the immune system are estrogen, progesterone, androgen, and prolactin.
Conclusion: Because of the effect that sex hormones exert on the immune system, it is very probable that these hormones also influence the prevalence and the course of MS.

So this is being market as an anti-aging supplement, an alternative to expensive HGH injections that have a risk profile.
Don't know if it can give you the levels you need for body building, but might be worth looking into, and I'd love any feedback so I can understand this better.
I showed the active ingredients to my physicians and she said "looks harmless".
HGH 30X (somatropin) a lab created from plant based amino acids chains
THYROIDINUM 8X GLANDULA
SUPRARENALIS SUIS 6X

I actually do not know much about this new transdermal HGH product or others similar. Typically in the past those types of formulas didn’t work but it seems like reviews are mixed with this one. Some positive some negative. If you’re getting good results that fast you probably had extremely low levels to begin with. If it’s working for you that’s great I’m happy for you.

[Soalian]

I am on TRT 150mg/week, I also partake in weightlifting 3/4x a week and do quite a lot of cardio. I was considering stacking mid/high-dose Boldenone (EQ) (500-800mg/week range) on top of it mainly for its purported beneficial effects on endurance and strength.

I'm looking for anecdotal experiences, has anyone tried it?

[John250]

I am on TRT 150mg/week, I also partake in weightlifting 3/4x a week and do quite a lot of cardio. I was considering stacking mid/high-dose Boldenone (EQ) (500-800mg/week range) on top of it mainly for its purported beneficial effects on endurance and strength.
I'm looking for anecdotal experiences, has anyone tried it?

I’ve used it several times in the past. It’s a pretty mild steroid side effects are not that bad you don’t have to worry about any estrogen conversion the main side effect is it highly increase his red blood cells and hemoglobin. Once you finish using it just go donate blood in you should be good. Also it takes a long time to kick in so it’s best to run it for at least 14 weeks. Also it highly increases appetite.

Edited by John250, 24 October 2018 - 03:18 PM.

[Rocket]

I am on TRT 150mg/week, I also partake in weightlifting 3/4x a week and do quite a lot of cardio. I was considering stacking mid/high-dose Boldenone (EQ) (500-800mg/week range) on top of it mainly for its purported beneficial effects on endurance and strength.
I'm looking for anecdotal experiences, has anyone tried it?

150mg is high for TRT. That is almost a permanent cycle.

[John250]

150mg is high for TRT. That is almost a permanent cycle.

Everyone metabolizes testosterone different. The average dose most Dr.’s prescribe is 100 mg per week. I know about 10 people who’s levels are barely in the mid range using 150 mg per week and they need 200.

[AnabolicFactor]

150mg is high for TRT. That is almost a permanent cycle.

 

It's really not that high and there's a lot of factors at play such how well you metabloize it and whether your Dr. is progressive thinking when it comes to treatment. Most doctors are contempt to keep a patient in the 400ish ng/dl range, If I'm spending money I expect to be kept at a natural optimal level. I'll be discussing with my Dr. soon to raise my dose after we go over my blood work, I feel that there is more room for improvement.

[Rocket]

Everyone metabolizes testosterone different. The average dose most Dr.’s prescribe is 100 mg per week. I know about 10 people who’s levels are barely in the mid range using 150 mg per week and they need 200.

 

Wow that's crazy. I did a blood test on 200mg and I was off the range of the blood test. If someone is converting that much T to E then they should get onto an E inhibitor. If it isn't converting to E, then where does it go?

 

 

 

[John250]

Wow that's crazy. I did a blood test on 200mg and I was off the range of the blood test. If someone is converting that much T to E then they should get onto an E inhibitor. If it isn't converting to E, then where does it go?

It doesn’t necessarily mean they are converting it to estrogen. That’s why an ultra sensitive estradiol test is best since that was designed for men not standard estradiol. Another thing is the frequency of injections. For example right now are use 20 mg testosterone cypionate intramuscular every day and my levels are in range but in the very high-end. Another thing is the frequency of injections. For example right now I use 20 mg testosterone cypionate intermuscular every day and my levels are in range but in a very high-end. If I take just one or two shots a week still totaling 140 mg they can be up to 30% lower. In the timing of the blood test also is important. If you get the bloodwork done a day or two after your shot levels can be up to 75% higher of what they would be five or six days after the shot for some people.

[John250]

Edit double post.......

Edited by John250, 25 October 2018 - 04:32 PM.

[Rocket]

How do you extract 20mg from a vile with a concentration of 200mg/ml? 1/10th of a ML is really small and you will lose half your vile just from wasted oil in the syringes going that small.

 

How is your RBC count doing 20mg daily? I have always suspected that the RBC spike from T injections is because the typical person injects with 100mg and that massive blast of T into bloodstream causes the RBC spike. 20mg daily is akin to a topical T product.

[John250]

How do you extract 20mg from a vile with a concentration of 200mg/ml? 1/10th of a ML is really small and you will lose half your vile just from wasted oil in the syringes going that small.

How is your RBC count doing 20mg daily? I have always suspected that the RBC spike from T injections is because the typical person injects with 100mg and that massive blast of T into bloodstream causes the RBC spike. 20mg daily is akin to a topical T product.

I draw out 1cc(200mg) in a regular syringe 3cc 22g 1” syringe and I then backload it into a 1cc29 gauge half inch insulin syringe. Each 1/10th of the syringe is 20mg. It flows out of the insulin syringe no problem. Rbc’s are good at that dose if I donate blood twice a year. Rbc’s lower with this method opposed to doing one bigger shot all at once plus free testosterone is around 300 range 50-180 and total test is around 850 range 220-900
I use .5mg arimidex 2x/wk and it keeps my estrogen around 30 range <40

Edited by John250, 26 October 2018 - 02:04 AM.

[Soalian]

I draw out 1cc(200mg) in a regular syringe 3cc 22g 1” syringe and I then backload it into a 1cc29 gauge half inch insulin syringe. Each 1/10th of the syringe is 20mg. It flows out of the insulin syringe no problem. Rbc’s are good at that dose if I donate blood twice a year. Rbc’s lower with this method opposed to doing one bigger shot all at once plus free testosterone is around 300 range 50-180 and total test is around 850 range 220-900
I use .5mg arimidex 2x/wk and it keeps my estrogen around 30 range <40

 

I wish I had the discipline to try a similar daily protocol for my TRT and spread out the doses over the whole week as you do, not sure it would make much of a difference though. Currently I inject 150mg Test E in one sitting once a week. Might not be optimal for RBCs and regular Test distribution over the week. What keeps me from trying your protocol is the cost of syringes mainly. I'am also injecting HCG, BPC-157, Semax, GHRP-2 & Mod-GRF on top of it, so I'm already pinning around 10 times/week alreay (i mix compounds in the same syringe), I don't want to become a needle junkie (Or maybe I already am? )

[John250]

I wish I had the discipline to try a similar daily protocol for my TRT and spread out the doses over the whole week as you do, not sure it would make much of a difference though. Currently I inject 150mg Test E in one sitting once a week. Might not be optimal for RBCs and regular Test distribution over the week. What keeps me from trying your protocol is the cost of syringes mainly. I'am also injecting HCG, BPC-157, Semax, GHRP-2 & Mod-GRF on top of it, so I'm already pinning around 10 times/week alreay (i mix compounds in the same syringe), I don't want to become a needle junkie (Or maybe I already am? )

You don’t have to do every day, two or three times a week would still make a huge difference versus once. If you can I would say split it into Monday Wednesday and Friday and within 4 to 6 weeks you’ll notice a difference. Much higher free testosterone levels and lower estrogen conversion.

Also it’s fine to mix all your peptides into one syringe before injecting but do not let it stay in the syringe for more than a couple minutes and definitely do not keep peptides mixed in the same vial.

Syringes are dirt cheap. Less than .10c each

https://www.shopmedv...keyword=29g 1cc

https://www.shopmedv...word=3cc 25 x 1

Edited by John250, 27 October 2018 - 04:18 PM.

[AnabolicFactor]

I use https://www.gpzmedlab.com/ they carry my favorite needle brand, Terumo.

[John250]

I use https://www.gpzmedlab.com/ they carry my favorite needle brand, Terumo.

Yes gpz has been around for ages but they are pricey and they don’t sell Terumo anymore but...

https://www.shopmedv...facturer:Terumo

[YoungSchizo]

@John250

How does AAS/HGH affect brain chemistry? What does it do to dopamine/serotonin neurotransmitters?

[John250]

@John250

How does AAS/HGH affect brain chemistry? What does it do to dopamine/serotonin neurotransmitters?

I have noticed no changes in brain chemistry from HGH. I suggest researching it more but I don’t think it has that big of an impact on neurotransmitters. AAS on the other hand can have a pretty big impact. As far as normal adequate testosterone replacement dosing the effects be minimal. But all the other steroids out there, there is not enough studies on them and I know a ton of bodybuilders who can become absolute psycho paths from certain steroids and some are not affected at all. With you being schizo I would highly suggest avoiding them. There is an a lot of research but the general consensus is if you have pre-disposed conditions, anger, anxiety, etc. then steroids will accelerate them. For example if you’re a calm passive guy with no anxiety or depression by nature you probably will not have any negative emotional consequences from steroids but if you are prone to anger and anxiety and depression specific steroids can definitely do some damage.

[YoungSchizo]

I have noticed no changes in brain chemistry from HGH. I suggest researching it more but I don’t think it has that big of an impact on neurotransmitters. AAS on the other hand can have a pretty big impact. As far as normal adequate testosterone replacement dosing the effects be minimal. But all the other steroids out there, there is not enough studies on them and I know a ton of bodybuilders who can become absolute psycho paths from certain steroids and some are not affected at all. With you being schizo I would highly suggest avoiding them. There is an a lot of research but the general consensus is if you have pre-disposed conditions, anger, anxiety, etc. then steroids will accelerate them. For example if you’re a calm passive guy with no anxiety or depression by nature you probably will not have any negative emotional consequences from steroids but if you are prone to anger and anxiety and depression specific steroids can definitely do some damage.

Thanks.

What if I micro-dose with steroids? Will I still have to worry about serious side-effects?
My goal eventually is to dose just enough to counter antipsychotic-induced muscle weakness, inability to gain muscle-mass, increase my muscle tone and keep away the fast onset of fat / a healthy metabolism.

[John250]

Thanks.

What if I micro-dose with steroids? Will I still have to worry about serious side-effects?
My goal eventually is to dose just enough to counter antipsychotic-induced muscle weakness, inability to gain muscle-mass, increase my muscle tone and keep away the fast onset of fat / a healthy metabolism.

There is a difference between “steroids in “and testosterone. Technically testosterone is a steroid but it’s not like the others. If you get your levels checked and they are in range then I wouldn’t do anything but if they are low and you use testosterone replacement therapy I think you should be fine as long as you monitor levels and they are not too high. Just keep in mind once you start it you have to use it forever but if you are going to have low testosterone forever then it’s worth it obviously. Don’t mess with any other steroids or Sarms.The cons from the side effects outweigh the pros. Also you have to work out or you wont notice much when using testosterone or HGH or anything really. You don’t have to train like a bodybuilder but moderate resistance training three or four times a week is plenty.

Edited by John250, 01 November 2018 - 04:22 PM.

[Nuke]

Wow that's crazy. I did a blood test on 200mg and I was off the range of the blood test. If someone is converting that much T to E then they should get onto an E inhibitor. If it isn't converting to E, then where does it go?

 

Yes we all are different. eg. 200mg/week only put me at 750ng/dl. E2 at 36pg/ml without an AI, so its likely not going that way. I have a feeling it goes to DHT on my case, will test soon. I'm still dialing it in.

[YoungSchizo]

If you get your levels checked and they are in range then I wouldn’t do anything but if they are low and you use testosterone replacement therapy I think you should be fine as long as you monitor levels and they are not too high. Just keep in mind once you start it you have to use it forever but if you are going to have low testosterone forever then it’s worth it obviously. 

 

My testosterone really vary from really low to average to high. Like I already posted earlier in this thread when I was (possibly) on Raloxifene my overall testosterone levels increased by 30% and my depression lifted (in a 3 month period from March to June this year). I had blood-test done a little more than a month ago and my testosterone levels decreased back to low. Right now I'm supplementing with Raloxifene again and will let my testosterone levels checked again over 2 months.

 

However, did I miss something? Once you go on testo-therapy, you have to use it forever?! Isn't the rule that when you don't abuse exogenous testosterone and go on a testosterone replacement therapy you have to cycle it for a couple of weeks and after that you have to take something that resets and enables the bodily functions back to normal so the body will not shut down and will produce testosterone naturally again..?

[John250]

My testosterone really vary from really low to average to high. Like I already posted earlier in this thread when I was (possibly) on Raloxifene my overall testosterone levels increased by 30% and my depression lifted (in a 3 month period from March to June this year). I had blood-test done a little more than a month ago and my testosterone levels decreased back to low. Right now I'm supplementing with Raloxifene again and will let my testosterone levels checked again over 2 months.

However, did I miss something? Once you go on testo-therapy, you have to use it forever?! Isn't the rule that when you don't abuse exogenous testosterone and go on a testosterone replacement therapy you have to cycle it for a couple of weeks and after that you have to take something that resets and enables the bodily functions back to normal so the body will not shut down and will produce testosterone naturally again..?

Total testosterone can vary from day to day but free testosterone is more accurate so how was your free testosterone on the tests? Also when you use exogenous testosterone or any steroid it will suppress you’re HPTA system but if you use Clomid as a post cycle recovery and limit the cycles to about three months each your levels can recover but with time they will not. Just using testosterone replacement therapy is meant just for what it is called. “Replacement.” Whether you go on a standard dose of testosterone or an astronomical dose of testosterone or other steroids regardless it has to do with how long you are on it. Any more than like a year and the odds of recovering natural levels are slim. If your levels are low and continue to be low when you are not using anything including the ralox then that means they are permanently low and you want just exogenous testosterone replacement therapy for life. But if the medications you take are causing your testosterone to be low and you eventually plan to go off of those medications and want to have natural testosterone levels in that case you are better off not using any form of testosterone or any steroid that are exogenous. HGH is a completely different thing. You can use that on and off long-term short term it doesn’t really matter it won’t affect testosterone or negatively shut your levels down.

Edited by John250, 03 November 2018 - 08:13 PM.

[YoungSchizo]

Total testosterone can vary from day to day but free testosterone is more accurate so how was your free testosterone on the tests? Also when you use exogenous testosterone or any steroid it will suppress you’re HPTA system but if you use Clomid as a post cycle recovery and limit the cycles to about three months each your levels can recover but with time they will not. Just using testosterone replacement therapy is meant just for what it is called. “Replacement.” Whether you go on a standard dose of testosterone or an astronomical dose of testosterone or other steroids regardless it has to do with how long you are on it. Any more than like a year and the odds of recovering natural levels are slim. If your levels are low and continue to be low when you are not using anything including the ralox then that means they are permanently low and you want just exogenous testosterone replacement therapy for life. But if the medications you take are causing your testosterone to be low and you eventually plan to go off of those medications and want to have natural testosterone levels in that case you are better off not using any form of testosterone or any steroid that are exogenous. HGH is a completely different thing. You can use that on and off long-term short term it doesn’t really matter it won’t affect testosterone or negatively shut your levels down.

Oh, I thought the daily testosterone was just as important, that's the one that swings a lot. Anyway in the study my prolactine dropped almost half from 1.2iu/L to 0.75iu/L (0.10 - 0.65iu/l is normal) and free testosterone jumped from 370pmol/L to 520pmol/L (unfortunately from the other blood tests I only have the daily results). I will let my full testosterone levels checked on my next blood test.

Sorry, I thought you meant testosterone therapy and cycling it with Clomid was the same thing. I was talking about cycling testosterone and Clomid and wondering/considering (if) that (is/was) a option without damaging the natural production after the cycle is done. Now I know what you meant, thanks for clarifying.

I will probably never be able to get off antipsychotics so I guess the natural production of my T (and other important hormones) will be compromised. I might consider a trial with T and Clomid (not like bodybuilders do but more in a cautious way and shorter cycle's).

As for HGH, I will definitely try that after I'm done losing my fat-mass and start intensive bodybuilding again.

One last question though, how much pmol/L testosterone is considered dangerous?

-edit- on a side note, although my libido is normal and never changed, another reason I know antipsychotics have a bad effect on my testosterone levels is because my testies have shrunk quite a lot ever since I'm on it (13 years) and my sperm production has been very low ever since.

Edited by YoungSchizo, 04 November 2018 - 01:03 PM.