278 replies to this topic

[John250]

@John250

As you already know I've been heavily gone up and down in weight over the past decade, although not too much but quite noticeable, this has taken it's toll and resulted in excess skin and as you know I might never be able to fill it up with muscle's due to antipsychotics and if your plan/advice for me somehow fails due to adverse effects I will probably would have to learn to live with it.

What are other ways to increase collagen? Afaik the only effective way (or maybe even better said were commercialized years ago) are those infrared-light sunbathers..?

I’m not very familiar with that information sorry. When I was 18 years old I was pretty overweight. Probably high 30’s% body fat. In a year I dropped 60lbs and then over 10yrs gained 60lbs muscle. No skin issues other than some stretch marks on anterior shoulder area from getting so wide. (56”) chest(53”)

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Edited by John250, 21 December 2018 - 05:04 AM.

[John250]

Hi John,

Thanks for all this, huge help! Your diet recommendations were helpful. The extra carbs increased muscle glycogen, which was much needed!

I've read before that Anavar is liver toxic but the studies don't show it to be harmful, even at the dose I'm on. I've also read on forums that people use for a max of 8 weeks. What are your recommendations for running.

The cycle is going well so far. I had a casting for a big client, for catalog yesterday and I got the job. I honestly attribute this to increasing my dose of Test, starting anavar and proviron. I've always been ripped but this stack turned me into a greek god for this casting. It also makes my face and neck look more masculine. pretty interesting! Thank you so much for all this. FYI all the SARMs are garbage compared to Anavar. It says a lot about SARMs considering I'm taking the weakest steroid.

I've seen you talk about MK 677 quite a bit. I ran it for a couple cycles and didn't like the results. The water weight, body fat that came along with the muscle didn't make it worth it. I was concerned about a few things... The body has over 7 pathways to raise HGH and I don't think making the body raise it through one pathway is the right away, especially Ghrelin. I'm also concerned with it raising A1C. Please see study attached. What are your thoughts on MK677 vs HGH and IGF treatment? I'm aware of the desensitizing concerns with IGF but kids are treated with it everyday, long term, besides the studies don't show huge desensitizing.
https://www.nature.c...otcallback=true

Anavar is often faked which is why you see guys using high doses like 100mg+. 50mg/day “real” Anavar is plenty and very mild on the liver. You can go 12-14weeks no problem. Same with Winstrol. Proviron can be long term. Turinabol is about 8-10 weeks recommended. D-Bol/Anadrol/Superdrol 4-8weeks. Halo 3-5weeks tops.

MK677 is great for bulking but you do retain water. What doses did you use? Average is 25mg but 12.5mg is plenty. In fact even 5-8mg isn’t bad.

Didn’t read your links yet but typically HGH can mess with insulin and thyroid only in higher doses. At 1-2iu my insulin and thyroid didn’t change but some people’s do. Very rare though if keeping it <or=3iu. Igf desensitization is broscience. I haven’t seen a single study showing it. If you find one lmk. People dose Igf-Lr3 too high like 100mcg+ and see a lack of progress after a month or so. That doesn’t mean desensitization though. I prefer lower doses like 20-30mcg and I’ve used it for months without any desensitization. If you want to do higher blast doses like 100mcg+ it should only be run 3x/wk.

What I want to try is Pharma grade IGF-1 (mecasermin [rDNA origin] injection) but it’s super expensive and already comes pre mixed. Many say it’s the “secret” of the pro’s but that’s BS. I have a few buds buddies who tried it and they got good gains but nothing insane. Some logs are in the logging section at professionalmuscle.com

[Geoff1892]

Anavar is often faked which is why you see guys using high doses like 100mg+. 50mg/day “real” Anavar is plenty and very mild on the liver. You can go 12-14weeks no problem. Same with Winstrol. Proviron can be long term. Turinabol is about 8-10 weeks recommended. D-Bol/Anadrol/Superdrol 4-8weeks. Halo 3-5weeks tops.

MK677 is great for bulking but you do retain water. What doses did you use? Average is 25mg but 12.5mg is plenty. In fact even 5-8mg isn’t bad.

Didn’t read your links yet but typically HGH can mess with insulin and thyroid only in higher doses. At 1-2iu my insulin and thyroid didn’t change but some people’s do. Very rare though if keeping it <or=3iu. Igf desensitization is broscience. I haven’t seen a single study showing it. If you find one lmk. People dose Igf-Lr3 too high like 100mcg+ and see a lack of progress after a month or so. That doesn’t mean desensitization though. I prefer lower doses like 20-30mcg and I’ve used it for months without any desensitization. If you want to do higher blast doses like 100mcg+ it should only be run 3x/wk.

What I want to try is Pharma grade IGF-1 (mecasermin [rDNA origin] injection) but it’s super expensive and already comes pre mixed. Many say it’s the “secret” of the pro’s but that’s BS. I have a few buds buddies who tried it and they got good gains but nothing insane. Some logs are in the logging section at professionalmuscle.com

Interesting, thanks for the info on runs. I was planning on running Proviron longer as it seems like it will be a good addition to TRT. Increase free T and bind to estrogen receptors?... Ugh, yea!!! 

I used it at doses 7, 12.5 and 25. At the time I was mainly using it for anti aging and muscle gain purposes but I thought a HGH/ IGF stack would be better all around and easier to manage because I really couldn't do bloods on my HGH levels. IGF 1 got up to 260 with 12.5mg MK677 and Mod CJC but the sides weren't worth the headache, literally. From what I've read IGF-1 given alone with a IGFBP 3 deficiency causes desensitizing of the receptors. That's why doctors combine both HGH and IGF 1 with IGF-1 deficiency, as HGH directly increases IGFBP 3. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/7505280

 

The closest I got to using mecasemin was the bio-identical 70 chain IGF-1 I found on peptide sciences. I thought it worked great, better than IGF LR3. LR3 seems to give me a little fluid retention but the bio identical IGF filled out my muscles more, worked better with HGH. It wasn't worth the money for the dosages I needed so I ditched it unfortunately. 

I think I've been fucking up on mixing my IGF LR3 and MGF..... I've been mixing with Bac water this entire time... I've been reading that it degrades the peptide due to the PH changes. What do you use to reconstitute? If I wanted to continue using bac water could I freeze my dosages in insulin syringes once reconstituted? 

 

 

[John250]

Interesting, thanks for the info on runs. I was planning on running Proviron longer as it seems like it will be a good addition to TRT. Increase free T and bind to estrogen receptors?... Ugh, yea!!!

Yes or you can cycle between Proviron and Masteron. Masteron stronger I’d say 200mg/wk is comparable to 50mg/day Proviron. Don’t rely on it as an anti-estrogen though. They both are still weak at inhibiting estrogen.

I used it at doses 7, 12.5 and 25. At the time I was mainly using it for anti aging and muscle gain purposes but I thought a HGH/ IGF stack would be better all around and easier to manage because I really couldn't do bloods on my HGH levels. IGF 1 got up to 260 with 12.5mg MK677 and Mod CJC but the sides weren't worth the headache, literally. From what I've read IGF-1 given alone with a IGFBP 3 deficiency causes desensitizing of the receptors. That's why doctors combine both HGH and IGF 1 with IGF-1 deficiency, as HGH directly increases IGFBP 3.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/7505280

The closest I got to using mecasemin was the bio-identical 70 chain IGF-1 I found on peptide sciences. I thought it worked great, better than IGF LR3. LR3 seems to give me a little fluid retention but the bio identical IGF filled out my muscles more, worked better with HGH. It wasn't worth the money for the dosages I needed so I ditched it unfortunately.

I think I've been fucking up on mixing my IGF LR3 and MGF..... I've been mixing with Bac water this entire time... I've been reading that it degrades the peptide due to the PH changes. What do you use to reconstitute? If I wanted to continue using bac water could I freeze my dosages in insulin syringes once reconstituted?

Bacteriostatic is what you want with all peptides but don’t mix the mgf and igf in the same vial. It’s ok to mix in the same syringe if you inject immediately but don’t keep it stored in the syringe either.

Mgf and igf can compete for the same receptors so you need to cycle them the right way.

https://www.team-and...r3-t111000.html

[YoungSchizo]

I have made an appointment with my GP for next week. What are all the specific things I want to get checked out why I do not gain a gram of muscle-mass? (a full blood-test, my thyroid, what else?)

 

I know the cause is the use of antipsychotics but this has been many times that I will "bother" him with the same issue but this time I want to push him to investigate this matter more psychically comprehensive instead of walking away with empty hands again. Exercising is pretty much my life and the only thing that helps with my mental health issues so please throw anything useful out there to get checked out.

[John250]

I have made an appointment with my GP for next week. What are all the specific things I want to get checked out why I do not gain a gram of muscle-mass? (a full blood-test, my thyroid, what else?)

I know the cause is the use of antipsychotics but this has been many times that I will "bother" him with the same issue but this time I want to push him to investigate this matter more psychically comprehensive instead of walking away with empty hands again. Exercising is pretty much my life and the only thing that helps with my mental health issues so please throw anything useful out there to get checked out.

Nothing wrong with gaining muscle mass I don’t recall saying there was. I’m not sure how extensive of a test they would give you but I would go with:

Total testosterone
Free testosterone
Bioavailable testosterone
SHBG
dihydrotestosterone
FSH
LH
“Ultrasensative” Estradiol
IGF-1
Prolactin
Progesterone
DHEA
Vitamin D

And for thyroid

TSH
T-3 Uptake
Reverse T3(Also known as RT3 or REVT3)
T4
Free Thyroxine Index (T7)
Thyroid Peroxidase (TPO) Antibodies
Thyroid Antithyroglobulin Antibody

[YoungSchizo]

Nothing wrong with gaining muscle mass I don’t recall saying there was. I’m not sure how extensive of a test they would give you but I would go with:
 

 

 

I didn't meant you saying that bud! Love this thread you made actually and am thankful for all the info you have given me (incl. this list)!

 

After trying pretty much everything they've advised me and see me 'fail' because of their ill advise maybe he will finally feel sorry and/or understanding and who knows he will finally do a extensive test on me. Gonna try pushing him!      

[John250]

I didn't meant you saying that bud! Love this thread you made actually and am thankful for all the info you have given me (incl. this list)!

After trying pretty much everything they've advised me and see me 'fail' because of their ill advise maybe he will finally feel sorry and/or understanding and who knows he will finally do a extensive test on me. Gonna try pushing him!

Are you trying to get prescribed testosterone from your Dr.? Is that the reason for the recent bloodwork you want done?

[YoungSchizo]

Are you trying to get prescribed testosterone from your Dr.? Is that the reason for the recent bloodwork you want done?

Yes and no, I actually want a part of this blood-work because my own 3 month trial with Raloxifene has ended so my testosterone will come out on the "high" end (like it did in the actual scientific study).
I also want my blood-work done to see other results because I changed my lifestyle the past 3 months and I'm curious how much it has effected some "standard" blood-values since the last time I let my blood-work checked (little more than 3 months ago).

I wanted the list you just gave me to post the results in this thread and ask for further advice. (My thyroid for example has never been tested.)

I have 4 more pounds of fat-mass to lose, then I'll be bodybuilding again and I want my doc to give me the necessary compounds (if possible because of medical reasons) or I will need to purchase them.

I don't want to end up really disappointed and fat again in a year with totally no muscle gains.

(It's hypocrite, they encourage healthy lifestyle choices and exercise to combat mental/physical issues but at the same time they stuff you with drugs that all your exercise/health goals are out of reach.)

[John250]

If you want testosterone prescribed you don’t want your levels to show high. Ralox 1/2 life is like 27-28hrs but I’m not sure how long it keeps testosterone elevated I would assume no more than a week at the most.

[YoungSchizo]

If you want testosterone prescribed you don’t want your levels to show high. Ralox 1/2 life is like 27-28hrs but I’m not sure how long it keeps testosterone elevated I would assume no more than a week at the most.

I'm not really sure about this because in the study they also measured long-term effects, although it was on symptoms severity/improvement but they did not draw blood from me again a half year after the 3 months drug trial already ended. Because supposedly Raloxifene should have long-term neuroprotective effects so I guess that also means in blood values?

Edited by YoungSchizo, 29 December 2018 - 06:09 AM.

[John250]

I'm not really sure about this because in the study they also measured long-term effects, although it was on symptoms severity/improvement but they did not draw blood from me again a half year after the 3 months drug trial already ended. Because supposedly Raloxifene should have long-term neuroprotective effects so I guess that also means in blood values?

Nothing can permanently increase testosterone once its stopped so I don’t think you’re going to have an issue with that. The neuroprotective affects could be different but definitely not hormonal affects.

[Yuri]

Hi John

 

I'm 53 and I play hockey 2 times per week, and I feel that I lack endurance.

 

I read that some steroids give the endurance effect - even some of them were given to racehorses. Your stake on this?

 

I tried L-Carnitine but it loweres my blood pressure. I also tried ginseng but difficult to acieve the correct dose as I easily get an arousal

 

 

Thanks

[John250]

Hi John

I'm 53 and I play hockey 2 times per week, and I feel that I lack endurance.

I read that some steroids give the endurance effect - even some of them were given to racehorses. Your stake on this?

I tried L-Carnitine but it loweres my blood pressure. I also tried ginseng but difficult to acieve the correct dose as I easily get an arousal


Thanks

There’s a lot that goes into endurance. First off I don’t recall if you are on testosterone replacement therapy or not but testosterone, HGH, and igf will increase endurance in therapeutic or slightly higher than therapeutic doses but they can hinder endurance in excessiive dosage.

As far as steroids there are quite a few. Equipoise is most commonly used for endurance but I feel the cons outweigh the pros as it drastically increases red blood cell count. It’s more of a young man’s drug. The risk of hemoglobin getting too high and blood becoming too thick can increase chances of a stroke and other problems so I wouldn’t use that one.

The second one would be Winstrol as it’s known to increase endurance and is popular in Olympic runners, but again it’s more of a young man’s drug as it takes a beating on your joints and lipids.

The sarm Cardarine(GW1516) is now the most common substance used for endurance and provides the greatest effect but the cancer scares are what prevented me from using it although several people and studies showed the dosage would have to be astronomical but it still can induce neoplasms so again to me at least the cons outweigh the pros.

Next would be pretty much any stimulant. As long as it’s not too strong where vasoconstriction is too much it’s going to increase endurance but again not really something to mess with when you are creeping up there in age.

So to conclude I would say the safest and most beneficial supplement for you and your goals would be injectable adenosine monophosphate. Several companies online sell it for horses and there are some popular combos out there that also include B 12 and electrolytes. I know a guy who sells a pretty popular formula called Myosine which is injectable adenosine monophosphate with b12,potassium and a few other ingredients I can’t recall off the top my head. If you message me I can give you his contact info. I don’t think it’s that expensive I want to say it’s like $80’ish for 50ml and 1ml is plenty even best to start with 1/2ml. It is supposed to be used about 2-4x/wk about 45 minutes before your activity. I used it a long time ago and what I got out of it was it does not give you energy like stimulants would but it almost makes you push through your workouts more without even noticing.

Edited by John250, 12 January 2019 - 07:22 PM.

[Yuri]

John, thanks.

 

What's the difference between adenosine monophosphate AMP and adenosine 5'-Triphosphate ATP like this 

 

https://www.iherb.co...-Capsules/74292

 

The last one is advertised on several sites

[John250]

John, thanks.

What's the difference between adenosine monophosphate AMP and adenosine 5'-Triphosphate ATP like this

https://www.iherb.co...-Capsules/74292

The last one is advertised on several sites

I’m honestly not sure on that

[Yuri]

Hi John

 

Would like to ask you about HGH vs IGF-1 for antiaging purposes (I'm 53)

 

Most of dicussions are among bodybuilders but I'm not interested in muscles increasing. I'm interested in increasing vitality. And I'm low on HGH but not on IGF-1 (and I passed these boold tests several times during last year)

 

 

According to blood test I'm low on HGH (0.13 with the norm from 0.06 to 3.00)

 

but more or less ok on IGF-1 (170 with the norm from 48 to 209)

[Rocket]

Hi John

Would like to ask you about HGH vs IGF-1 for antiaging purposes (I'm 53)

Most of dicussions are among bodybuilders but I'm not interested in muscles increasing. I'm interested in increasing vitality. And I'm low on HGH but not on IGF-1 (and I passed these boold tests several times during last year)


According to blood test I'm low on HGH (0.13 with the norm from 0.06 to 3.00)

but more or less ok on IGF-1 (170 with the norm from 48 to 209)

HGH is the weakest of the weakest anabolics. You could take enough HGH to give yourself carpal tunnel and not gain any appreciable muscle. Look at Andre the Giant: all the hgh in the world and the worst physique of anyone.

2iu is a good dose for replacement. igf-1 is how hgh exerts its growth effects. I don't care what my hgh is when I order blood tests.... I only look at IGF-1 since that is the molecule that benefits my body.

2iu for me gives good results without worries about insulin resistance. nails, skin, aches and pains all improve in short order. Its amazing how hgh drops after 30... Its so vital to health.

[Yuri]

Hi Rocket, thanks for your input

 

May I ask your age?

 

Please also clarify if you take HGH non-stop or by courses? Or perhaps several days per week as John suggested in one of his posts (on training days)?

 

 

Edited by Yuri, 15 February 2019 - 10:41 AM.

[platypus]

Is MK-677 inferior to HGH itself in practise? 

[John250]

HGH is the weakest of the weakest anabolics. You could take enough HGH to give yourself carpal tunnel and not gain any appreciable muscle. Look at Andre the Giant: all the hgh in the world and the worst physique of anyone.

2iu is a good dose for replacement. igf-1 is how hgh exerts its growth effects. I don't care what my hgh is when I order blood tests.... I only look at IGF-1 since that is the molecule that benefits my body.

2iu for me gives good results without worries about insulin resistance. nails, skin, aches and pains all improve in short order. Its amazing how hgh drops after 30... Its so vital to health.

True. It’s excellent for fat loss but it needs to be combined with testosterone or other anabolic‘s for muscle growth but even then HGH does not contribute that much to actual muscle growth. However when it’s combined with insulin and anabolic‘s that’s when the real muscle growth occurs.

Is MK-677 inferior to HGH itself in practise?

I wouldn’t say inferior. It’s completely different yet somewhat similar. If the overall goal is fat loss and rejuvenation HGH wins hands-down. If you’re looking to add a lot of strength, increased nitrogen retention, increased appetite, crazy pumps and fullness,etc.. then MK 677 is excellent.

[John250]

Hi John

Would like to ask you about HGH vs IGF-1 for antiaging purposes (I'm 53)

Most of dicussions are among bodybuilders but I'm not interested in muscles increasing. I'm interested in increasing vitality. And I'm low on HGH but not on IGF-1 (and I passed these boold tests several times during last year)


According to blood test I'm low on HGH (0.13 with the norm from 0.06 to 3.00)

but more or less ok on IGF-1 (170 with the norm from 48 to 209)

Rocket is correct on HGH bloodwork. It’s not accurate at all because timing the polls at the same time as the blood work is pretty hard. Your IGF is all you want to look at. 170 isn’t bad for your age. If you don’t have a baseline you will know but you could’ve very well been lower than 48. Igf works synergistically with hgh so you could try throwing a low-dose in. It also helps with insulin sensitivity. There are several methods. I would suggest taking a break from HGH and using 20mcg igf-lr3 for a month. Then discontinue the IGF and start HGH again for about 30 days. This way you could see what I do you have that on its own and then incorporate it with the HGH at 20mcg/day and see how you like it.

Geoff1892 has some pretty good information on this if you message him.

Edited by John250, 15 February 2019 - 11:10 PM.

[Yuri]

John, thanks

 

One more question. You recommended taking metformin to inhibit side effects of HGH.

 

Which dosage would you suggest in case of 1-2 units of HGH daily? Or 1-2 units is not a big deal so no need to worry?

 

Metformin decreases testosterone according to the reseach and additionally is not good for the stomach so I'm considering if to take it or not

 

The same question about thyroid

Edited by Yuri, 19 February 2019 - 08:47 AM.

[John250]

John, thanks

One more question. You recommended taking metformin to inhibit side effects of HGH.

Which dosage would you suggest in case of 1-2 units of HGH daily? Or 1-2 units is not a big deal so no need to worry?

Metformin decreases testosterone according to the reseach and additionally is not good for the stomach so I'm considering if to take it or not

The same question about thyroid

Well Metformin is nice for insulin sensitivity but it’s not necessarily needed. Typically HGH <=2iu/day won’t mess with glucose or thyroid in “most” people but you never know unless you gets blood work. Adding a little IGF-Lr3 will also improve insulin sensitivity if that’s your goal.

I’m not sold on Metformin lowering testosterone as the study was small and many participants already has diabetes.

[Yuri]

Here is another trial

 

https://www.research...ontrolled_trial

 

They didn't measure TST levels but training results with metformin are clearly worse. 

 

 

 

DO you mean that it's possible to use IGF-LR3 instead of metformin to inhibit side effects of HGH? 

[platypus]

True. It’s excellent for fat loss but it needs to be combined with testosterone or other anabolic‘s for muscle growth but even then HGH does not contribute that much to actual muscle growth. However when it’s combined with insulin and anabolic‘s that’s when the real muscle growth occurs.

I wouldn’t say inferior. It’s completely different yet somewhat similar. If the overall goal is fat loss and rejuvenation HGH wins hands-down. If you’re looking to add a lot of strength, increased nitrogen retention, increased appetite, crazy pumps and fullness,etc.. then MK 677 is excellent.

Hmm, if one assumes MK-677 increases HGH-release, why would it not give the same rejuvenative benefits? I understand that it has other effects that straight HGH does not have, but shouldn't the rejuvenation still take place? 

[John250]

Here is another trial

https://www.research...ontrolled_trial

They didn't measure TST levels but training results with metformin are clearly worse.



DO you mean that it's possible to use IGF-LR3 instead of metformin to inhibit side effects of HGH?

I have read that Metformin can hinder physical performance but I think the mechanism behind that is the inhibiting of mTOR because those physical performance hindering side effects occur with NAD which also inhibits mTOR. But HGH and IGF will increase mTOR far greater than NAD/Metformin could inhibit it so I doubt that will be an issue. I think it’s also dose dependent because the studies use pretty high doses of Metformin. I never had any problems using 500mg/day.

I’m also not positive if Metformin will play that big of a role in regulating insulin from HGH. But igf is know ln to regulate it so combining it with HGH could be effective. I still think you’ll have any issues with using HGH at <=2iu/day though. You would have to take fasting glucose levels and glucose levels other times of the day when your off everything to get a baseline. Then you can do the same thing while on HGH, IGF, or a combination of both.

Edited by John250, 22 February 2019 - 12:49 AM.

[John250]

Hmm, if one assumes MK-677 increases HGH-release, why would it not give the same rejuvenative benefits? I understand that it has other effects that straight HGH does not have, but shouldn't the rejuvenation still take place?

It still will yes. Anything that increases IGF will give those benefits but HGH does more than just increase IGF. It has other benefits for anti-aging but igf is a big one. MK677 dosages typically are reviewed by bodybuilders and they tend to be pretty high like 25-50mg. Even 12.5mg can be high. If your goal was rejuvenation and anti-aging I would start with low doses of MK 677 like 5mg for a few weeks and then titrate accordingly.

Something interesting about MK 677 is the very first dose you take increases actual HGH serum levels very high and then they quickly fall while igf remains elevated. I’m not sure how long that is but I think a few guys were going to experiment with megadosing MK 677 once every few weeks but I don’t recall reading any recent updates about it.

Also Mk677’s half life was always known to be 24hrs but that not correct. It’s actually only 4-6hrs but igf levels remain elevated for 24hrs.

[Yuri]

Hi John

 

Started to use MGF PEG.

 

I have a clear feeling based on the reaction of the nervous system that this peptide increases HGH/IGF (perhaps not so strongly as special peptides) - but I could not find any information on this. 

 

Do you have any info?

[teeroy]

Hi John, thanks for starting the thread. I'm 45 and play basketball 1-2 times a week, soccer once a week, and softball once a week. I'm starting to feel the effects of age while playing, though, and even with playing all those sports am fighting with more fat than I would like. I know I need to clean up my diet for the fat but am looking for "rejuvenation" for playing my sports. Would like to play as long as I can. I am going to start with 5-10mg of MK677 (just ordered some from peptidetech) and 10mg LGD-4033 (Ligandrol). Based on your input here I will start out taking MK677 an hour or two before bed to help with sleep and I don't need it to make me hungry and eat. Based on LGD-4033 doesn't have side effects for most people but curious of you have tried it? Trying to figure out what time of day I want to take that or if I should just take it at the same time as the MK677. 

 

I plan to do 8 week cycles. Based on my reading there are mixed opinions as to if PCT is required when cycling off of these. Curious on your thoughts there.

 

Thanks.