31 replies to this topic

[jacobjerondin]

I'm sure I'll get roasted for the provocative title, but I'm just trying to get as many replies and feedback on this topic as possible.

 

So basically, hederagenin seems to be a powerful TRI (triple reuptake inhibitor) like coke, as my dude Lozko55 posted about over here. SilverHydra said "Speaking as the guy who wrote the Examine page I would put hederagenin on the short list of things that are of very high interest in the coming few years" (on that same post).

 

You can find much more information on hederagenin on the excellent mybiohack article on it here and on examine of course.

 

 

Now, my main question is about the reliability/safety of this somewhat sketchy consumer source I found for hederagenin. It's available via this Indian eBay seller, who apparently is selling a Hedera Helix extract that's standardized for 10% hederagenin - source.

 

I really want to pull the trigger on this but I'm concerned about the purity and safety of the extract in question, given that it's from eBay and a developing country. Do y'all think it's worth the risk? I've asked for CoAs and heavy metal reports, and the seller said he'll get the manufacturer to send them to me but Idk if that will happen.

 

 

 

Interesting background on hederagenin:

Anteus Labs had a product called Axon containing hederagenin as the active ingredient available a few years ago, and some people seemed to really enjoy the effects. However, it wasn't that popular so they discontinued it. On Longecity, the owner of Anteus Labs said that hederagenin wasn't very bioavailable, but that a small percentage is - source.

 

You need to keep in mind that hederagenin is incredibly powerful based on the rats study done, so even a small amount passing the BBB can create powerful effects.

Finally, we have a very anecdotal but interesting report here by a user describing hederagenin as "cocaine but much much more mellow" source. And yes this guy smoked caffeine and did a ton of other drugs but there are other anecdotal reports of the old Axon product being awesome by users on AnabolicMinds, etc.

 

Are you excited yet? I sure am. Now the big problem is that there isn't an easily accessible source of hederagenin. As I posted before, there's a pdf available here: http://www.chinjmap....er_id=11&falg=1 that lists the percentage content of hederagenin in different plants. However, it's in Chinese. I'm hoping someone can translate the relevant portion.

Edited by jacobjerondin, 30 May 2018 - 09:07 PM.

[normalizing]

so there is no reliable source for this except some sketchy chinese herbs "supposedly" containing it.

 

i think this topic is pretty much dead :/

[Galaxyshock]

Sounds somewhat similar to Catuaba. Another herbal DSRI that some find very enjoyable stimulant yet others don't get much from it.

[normalizing]

ive tried catuaba. it came as dark orange powder very dry bitter tannic taste impossible to drink when i made it as hot tea. regardless i forced myself and chugged as much as i could, but i never felt stimulative effect. maybe because back then i was actually using real stimulant pills and even cocaine so the comparison was too weak

[Galaxyshock]

I tried capsuled Catuaba back in 2013 hoping it would treat anhedonia. I got some mild stimulant effect and feelings of happiness but they faded quickly, if I remember correctly. Would like to try it again. Yeah it's probably hard to feel these herbals if you're using heavy stims.

 

Hyperforin from St. John's Wort is another SNDRI, but it seems to take couple of weeks to give effects.

[Saffron]

weird titles, people keep posting that weak stuff is strong & look all dissociative. what in the hell?

[Zed]

>>this but I'm concerned about the purity and safety of the extract in question, given that it's from eBay and a developing country. Do y'all think it's worth the risk?

I have got tons of stuff from India, China etc on ebay - generally worth the risk due to eBay's polices ..if it isnt good the vendor is in trouble. Just ordered it - only a few bucks (free postage ) so not a lot to lose if it turns out to be not too potent. In my view the heavy metals/impurities issue is prolly overblown - having said that this purchase is just a test. If I like the product I will probably source it somewhere local ( Aus). 
Thanks for the heads up.
Btw I think you can lose the click-bait title ..prolly turns more people off so defeats the stated aim...just a suggestion.

[William Sterog]

Polygala Tenuifolia also works this way and I find it pretty interesting.

[John250]

Polygala Tenuifolia also works this way and I find it pretty interesting.

What do you notice from it? I’ve got a bottle from Nootropics Depot I’ve been too afraid to use as I don’t want it to cause sedation or fatigue.

[jacobjerondin]

Haha I can't edit the title even if I wanted to but I stand by it. Perhaps the "best nootropic stimulant" part is too much haha but it does seem to be a decent cocaine alternative from what I've read. Anyway, this dude has tons of positive feedback on eBay so maybe I should go for it too. Idk tho, the risk seems very real according to this article: https://www.scientif...edies-found-to/

 

Catuaba seems very promising and interesting too, I think the main thing is finding a good extract of the bark.

[Zed]

Haha I can't edit the title even if I wanted to but I stand by it. Perhaps the "best nootropic stimulant" part is too much haha but it does seem to be a decent cocaine alternative from what I've read. Anyway, this dude has tons of positive feedback on eBay so maybe I should go for it too. Idk tho, the risk seems very real according to this article: https://www.scientif...edies-found-to/

 

Catuaba seems very promising and interesting too, I think the main thing is finding a good extract of the bark.

>>but I stand by it.
Haha..No probs ..I have no argument with the accuracy or otherwise of the title - just with notion that  clickbait titles being an effective tool to attract debate. May work on fb but obviously not here ..

>>so maybe I should go for it too
One can only try - not much to lose. Mine should be here in a week or so - thanks for the heads up.
 

>>Idk tho, the risk seems very real according to this article
Ahh the ole heavy metals in Aruyvedic meds study - that is VERY dated and was/is very controversial based on the methodology. IIRC there is a branch of Aruyvedic medicine that uses wood ash etc ..been used for centuries and the jury is still out on the efficacy of that for certain ailments - where the risk of the ash contaminants harming you is overshadowed by those same contaminants actually killing off the tumor or whatever .. Anyway the tests were specifically on those types of meds and then they lumped the results into ALL Aruyvedic meds - totally false and typical scaremongering. Its been refuted and there are more reasonable analysis since - the article was 2004 and the study before that. A lot has changed. I would think the risk of heavy metal contamination is no more than any overseas purchase .
Anyway it would seem that you have a high sense of vigilance when it comes to meds - I cant imagine having a med and NOT trying it ..lol . No fears about the Polygala - it ROCKs ..awesome - and also stims BDNF and hits dopamine I believe - so puts a smile on your face and makes you smarter ..cant beat that! -. I love it ..though occasionally stack it with Lemon Balm just for the feel good aspect (aka GABA) 

 

I have tried Catuaba and its kinda good but  hmm not sure ..Like with LIonsmane its AWESOME - no doubt about it for me ..also Ginsing , Aswha , Rhodiola Rosa even Camu Camu ...but ...hmm Catuaba SHOULD be in that league but for me anyway ..its like interesting but not an immediate goto ...not sure if I am making sense ...Lol..YMMV.

Edited by Zed, 07 June 2018 - 04:54 PM.

[normalizing]

you are not making sense for real

[jacobjerondin]

>>but I stand by it.
Haha..No probs ..I have no argument with the accuracy or otherwise of the title - just with notion that  clickbait titles being an effective tool to attract debate. May work on fb but obviously not here ..

>>so maybe I should go for it too
One can only try - not much to lose. Mine should be here in a week or so - thanks for the heads up.
 

>>Idk tho, the risk seems very real according to this article
Ahh the ole heavy metals in Aruyvedic meds study - that is VERY dated and was/is very controversial based on the methodology. IIRC there is a branch of Aruyvedic medicine that uses wood ash etc ..been used for centuries and the jury is still out on the efficacy of that for certain ailments - where the risk of the ash contaminants harming you is overshadowed by those same contaminants actually killing off the tumor or whatever .. Anyway the tests were specifically on those types of meds and then they lumped the results into ALL Aruyvedic meds - totally false and typical scaremongering. Its been refuted and there are more reasonable analysis since - the article was 2004 and the study before that. A lot has changed. I would think the risk of heavy metal contamination is no more than any overseas purchase .
Anyway it would seem that you have a high sense of vigilance when it comes to meds - I cant imagine having a med and NOT trying it ..lol . No fears about the Polygala - it ROCKs ..awesome - and also stims BDNF and hits dopamine I believe - so puts a smile on your face and makes you smarter ..cant beat that! -. I love it ..though occasionally stack it with Lemon Balm just for the feel good aspect (aka GABA) 

 

I have tried Catuaba and its kinda good but  hmm not sure ..Like with LIonsmane its AWESOME - no doubt about it for me ..also Ginsing , Aswha , Rhodiola Rosa even Camu Camu ...but ...hmm Catuaba SHOULD be in that league but for me anyway ..its like interesting but not an immediate goto ...not sure if I am making sense ...Lol..YMMV.

You are mostly making sense, altho your train of thought seems to be all over the place lol. I think the same way you typed but I try not to write that way lol. Also, I think your punctuation and spacing could be improved. I do appreciate all the info you shared tho. 

 

I am indeed incredibly "vigilant" (I think the terms cautious/careful might be better used in that context) because we only have one body and mind (right now!) so we better treat them right! I mean I have my share of research chemicals and sketchy stuff but I try to be very careful and avoid anything that seems to have any decent possibility of toxicity/heavy metal contamination/the like. I get what you're seaying about the study and appreciate that but I don't think it's right at all the dismiss of overseas heavy metal contamination. The standards tend to be pretty lax in places so like India so we need to proceed with extreme caution when no one except the seller is saying that it's tested for contaminants. 

 

I think I am actually going to hold off until you get your stuff and can let me know it is. Maybe if you find it as mind blowing as I'm hoping it'll be, I'll go ahead and try it out for myself. Until then, I'm gonna keep being cautious :P

 

I completely feel you re: catuaba, my experiences have been kinda disappointing too. However, I'm planning to get a strong extract of it sometime, as I suspect my Hawaii Pharm tincture isn't very strong at all.

[Zed]

>>You are mostly making sense, altho your train of thought seems to be all over the place lol. I think the same way you typed but I try not to write that way lol

 

Haha - its called Trumpism ..you say what you think and tweet what you say ..and then flip it around a few times so noone can sue you for anything ..lol

 

>>The standards tend to be pretty lax in places so like India so we need to proceed with extreme caution when no one except the seller is saying that it's tested for contaminants.

 

I think you are being a bit harsh on India - I have had a few ebay shipments from China stopped and impounded by the Australian BioSecurity unit as they didnt meet standards and to be fair a few bulk herbs from China all tend to have a similar 'metallic oil' type smell, like its been processed in some oily factory .I dump these.  But Indian meds have come through customs no problem and Australia is one of the strictest in the world.

 

India you must remember was ruled by the British for 250 years so a lot of these herbal companies started during the Raj under English law and regulations. Yes there is corruption but it is the largest functioning democracy in the world and has always had a free press and a VERY vocal citizenship so highlighting faults has never been a problem . China on the other hand has no democracy, no free press and the citizens are relatively less prone to complain (and risk getting arrested etc )  also in regional China the local cop, Government regulator and Triad boss are generally all under the same roof in the same family..lol .. so fraud /lax production for a quick buck can be done easier. I mean if they can create FAKE EGGS .they can create fake anything ! .. Obviously goods bought from major centers like Shanghai, Beijing , Hong Kong etc are all  pretty good - imo its the out of the way regional places that tend to cut corners.

 

>>I think I am actually going to hold off until you get your stuff and can let me know it is

Sweet . No probs will revert with a review in due course.

>>as I suspect my Hawaii Pharm tincture isn't very strong at all

Nah  - I think Catuaba is over hyped . even Safed  Musli has more of a kick ...ever tried that ?

 

BTW - I am interested in how you came to research this herb in the first place ? Any good fb noot research groups ? or Reddit channels ?  Any  leads about other supps you are researching ?

 

If this herb pans out it will be a + 1 Props to you ...

[Zed]

you are not making sense for real

  

LOL !
 

Give me a break I had spent the whole night uploading my gene data to a number of online analyzers and trying to work out what it all meant !!

 

Anyway given you had said this thread was pretty much dead on June 1 and here you are still commenting I am not sure I would trust the veracity of your observation 

[normalizing]

it is dead when it comes to the actual topic. you are just blabbering about yourself

[jacobjerondin]

Let's try to stay positive and on topic shall we . Zed is blabbing a bit haha but I really don't mind at all and if you do hazy you're welcome to go read whatever you find more interesting. Zed I am eagerly awaiting your report and please don't mind the haters, they're absolutely unavoidable sadly! 

 

I monitor a huge number of FB groups, forums, group messages and so on related to nootropics and biohacking. The way I found this herb in particular was through my dude Lozko55 on /r/nootropics, can't recommend his posts highly enough if y'all haven't read them before. As you may have noticed, I linked his post in my first post in this thread.

 

I want to keep this thread on topic but I will say that I'm incredibly fascinated by dopamine, and for a good DRI/Mao-B inhibitor Lozko recommends Babchi extract. I haven't tried it yet but I completely trust his opinion so y'all can go check that out too.

[Major Legend]

Interesting stuff, this is orally ingested? Wouldn't tolerance develop rapidly? A triple reuptake inhibitor...those things went out of fashion in medicine for a reason.

 

Dopamine is always a dangerous game. Pushing dopamine for a reasonable increase in attention and focus is great, but a lot of people confuse that with the effects of pushing dopamine way higher, which are things like confidence and motivation - I've never seen a substance where this is sustainable other than for recreational use occasionally.

 

In the meantime, I'll check more of his posts out.

 

[Junk Master]

A legal, healthy-mellow-cocaine-alternative-best-nootropic-stimulant-ever?

 

Sounds like chewing coca leaves...lol.

 

Seriously, how many of these threads have I read over the years?  

 

First come those touting various combinations of herbal combinations.  Then comes the bickering about the efficacy of various brands, or preparations of the various herbs combined with assorted arguments about tinctures and extracts v.  whole herbs.

 

There is no magic bullet that will ever come from a "shotgun" herbal remedy approach, just like no drug, or drug analog "scalpel" approach will ever work for each individual.

 

That said, over the last 20 something years of searching, there are certainly both herbs --Ashwaghandha, Gotu Kola, Magnolia Bark just to name a few.  As well as racetams worth exploring --phenylpiracetam, antiracetam, and good ol piracetam, in combo with Alpha GPC.  Finally, there are easily obtainable peptides and drugs worth exploring --  Cerebrolyslin, peptide p21, Hexarelin/Cjc 1295 with dac combo,  noopept, modafinil-- again, just to name a few.  That's not even touching the promising mushrooms like Lion's mane, reishi, cordyceps...and on, and on...

 

Point being, this is a life long, personal, journey.

 

I'm just glad to have a place like this forum to share my experiences, and read those of others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Junk Master, 13 June 2018 - 08:47 AM.

[normalizing]

junkmaster, none of the ones you mentioned boost dopamine, ive tried them all long term high dose

[Mind_Paralysis]

Interesting stuff, this is orally ingested? Wouldn't tolerance develop rapidly? A triple reuptake inhibitor...those things went out of fashion in medicine for a reason.

 

Dopamine is always a dangerous game. Pushing dopamine for a reasonable increase in attention and focus is great, but a lot of people confuse that with the effects of pushing dopamine way higher, which are things like confidence and motivation - I've never seen a substance where this is sustainable other than for recreational use occasionally.

 

In the meantime, I'll check more of his posts out.

 

Well, in THEORY, a very specialized, hard to develop, drug, with a highly selective mode of action, could be useful.

 

A Selective Serotonin-Norepinephrine-Dopamine-reuptake inhibitor. And yes, the affinities in that order - the NE should be reasonably even though.

 

Basically, a modified version of Milnacipran could be the ticket - as long as the dopamine-action is MILD, and highly selective (what are we treating btw? Anhedonic depression?), then it could work.

 

Overall, you are correct though - triple-reuptake inhibitors of the "big 3" neurotransmitters are generally problematic.

 

 

Interestingly enough though... it may not necessarily be a bad thing to combine a SNRI with RI-actions on other neurotransmitters! Perhaps something that would work like a combination of Milnacipran and Tiagabine (gaba-reuptake inhibitor), yes? With mild action there, perhaps with sufficient selectivity, it could have some interesting stuff! A SNGRI could be THE drug to treat Autistic depression, for instance! Since Autistics often have depression, but also abnormalities in GABA-neurotransmission, then such a drug might be just what the Dr. ordered...

 

Or, for the Schizophrenic, a selective Glutamate-Norepinephrine-Gaba-reuptake inhibitor! : D Firstly, the selective actions on glutamate, would correct NMDA-hypofunction, and the NE-action will help with negative symptoms, and the GABA will help with the seizure-proneness seen in Schizo's, as well as with hallucination-induced anxiety.

 

GOOD STUFF!! ^^

 

And this could just be the beginning... there's any number of transmitters, any number of triple-uptake combinations... Well, hypothetically - in practise, research on any of these other reuptake-stuffs is highly limited, and most known compounds would probably not be useful in creating new molecules with such affinities - we'd need some all-new stuff here... And that usually only comes through happy accidents and basic research on the brain.

[jacobjerondin]

Well, in THEORY, a very specialized, hard to develop, drug, with a highly selective mode of action, could be useful.

 

A Selective Serotonin-Norepinephrine-Dopamine-reuptake inhibitor. And yes, the affinities in that order - the NE should be reasonably even though.

 

Basically, a modified version of Milnacipran could be the ticket - as long as the dopamine-action is MILD, and highly selective (what are we treating btw? Anhedonic depression?), then it could work.

 

Overall, you are correct though - triple-reuptake inhibitors of the "big 3" neurotransmitters are generally problematic.

 

 

Interestingly enough though... it may not necessarily be a bad thing to combine a SNRI with RI-actions on other neurotransmitters! Perhaps something that would work like a combination of Milnacipran and Tiagabine (gaba-reuptake inhibitor), yes? With mild action there, perhaps with sufficient selectivity, it could have some interesting stuff! A SNGRI could be THE drug to treat Autistic depression, for instance! Since Autistics often have depression, but also abnormalities in GABA-neurotransmission, then such a drug might be just what the Dr. ordered...

 

Or, for the Schizophrenic, a selective Glutamate-Norepinephrine-Gaba-reuptake inhibitor! : D Firstly, the selective actions on glutamate, would correct NMDA-hypofunction, and the NE-action will help with negative symptoms, and the GABA will help with the seizure-proneness seen in Schizo's, as well as with hallucination-induced anxiety.

 

GOOD STUFF!! ^^

 

And this could just be the beginning... there's any number of transmitters, any number of triple-uptake combinations... Well, hypothetically - in practise, research on any of these other reuptake-stuffs is highly limited, and most known compounds would probably not be useful in creating new molecules with such affinities - we'd need some all-new stuff here... And that usually only comes through happy accidents and basic research on the brain.

 

What exactly do y'all see as being the problem with a good strong DRI? That's the main reason I want to get this stuff, I sure don't want any MILD DRI action haha, there's more than enough stuff that does that already. I want the serious boosts in confidence and motivation that the other guy was talking about, maybe it wouldn't be sustainable to feel that all the time but if not I'd gladly just use it once a week or something like that.

 

I have to categorically disagree with your proposed reuptake inhibition affinity order, that's completely backwards imo (this is for my body chemistry, everyone's is different of course but I think what I will say is true for most). NE tends to be me make anxious/panicky, I certainly don't need more of that generally, and more importantly, I've recently learned that serotonin is absolutely terrible stuff for guys too. I sure don't want any more of that than I already have, and would like to minimize to a certain degree as well. However, when dopamine is combined with NE and 5HT, the result can be quite pleasant I think, and so I don't mind too much about the reuptake inhibition on those if the DRI action is strong enough.

 

By the way, I'm basing what I'm saying about serotonin on the tragically underappreciated teachings of Dr. Ray Peat, please go read up on what he says about serotonin here and elsewhere if you think more serotonin is a good thing: http://raypeat.com/a...ggression.shtml. 

[Zed]

junkmaster, none of the ones you mentioned boost dopamine, ive tried them all long term high dose

 

All those l"long term high doses" has possibly fried your brain. It would explain why you think everything "is dead". I would suggest that looking for substances that boost dopamine would be THE wrong strategy for a person whose dopamine receptors are likely at the level of a brain dead person.
What is called for is dopamine receptor antagonism - traditionally delivered by anti psychotics though I am not a big fan. I would suggest herbs such as Cats Claw and Mulberry or possibly given the apparent severity of your case maybe even rauwolfia serpentina.
Lionsmane, Polygala tenuifolia and Rhodiolo Rosa would be other goto's. I could dig up references if you like.
You may have to accept the feeling that every thread "is dead" and that people are "blabbering about themselves" but this should pass after awhile as your brain starts to upregulate dopamine receptors and increases its endogenous production.
The other avenue that may be fruitful to investigate is whether you have the Warrior gene and are excessively expressing  COMT? - ie  a fast metabolizer of dopamine leading to low levels  and a desire to engage in conflict as a means to increase dopamine due to the fight/flight response. 
Rest assured there are options for you to regain your warm fuzzy positive emotions and soon you will be amazed how vibrant and alive these posts are   

[Zed]

Let's try to stay positive and on topic shall we . Zed is blabbing a bit haha but I really don't mind at all and if you do hazy you're welcome to go read whatever you find more interesting. Zed I am eagerly awaiting your report and please don't mind the haters, they're absolutely unavoidable sadly! 

 

I monitor a huge number of FB groups, forums, group messages and so on related to nootropics and biohacking. The way I found this herb in particular was through my dude Lozko55 on /r/nootropics, can't recommend his posts highly enough if y'all haven't read them before. As you may have noticed, I linked his post in my first post in this thread.

 

I want to keep this thread on topic but I will say that I'm incredibly fascinated by dopamine, and for a good DRI/Mao-B inhibitor Lozko recommends Babchi extract. I haven't tried it yet but I completely trust his opinion so y'all can go check that out too.

The Haders helix Extract arrived today but I wont be taking it for a few days I am currently experimenting with Epitalon (IN) so will continue with that for the next two days. Will try the Haders after that and revert.

Had Babchi extract for a few days prior to starting the Epitalon and can report that the stuff rocks. Its possibly one of the best nootropic herbs I have tried ( I have tried literally hundreds of different herbs )  and in addition also has bone regeneration qualities and is anti cancer ( according to Examine) . I seriously couldn't believe the lift in mood, energy and ability to study when I tried it.
What a coincidence that Lozko55 has mentioned that at the same time that I tried it by accident . I must research this Lozko55 dude. Any other leads ?

 

[jacobjerondin]

Amazing man, can't wait to hear about it! How is Epitalon going for you and what are you expecting to get from it? I've heard it's great for skin and general health but I'm not that interested in paying big bucks for those purposes as opposed to others since I have enough to spend my hard-earned cash on right now.

 

What brand of the extract did you get and what dose are you using? That's incredible to hear man, I need that mood lift and motivation for staying on track and getting over my typical lack of activation energy.

 

Lozko55 is one of the most knowledgeable guys in the noots scene I've come across by far, and you actually remind me of him a lot given your focus on natural stuff (which I don't necessarily share but do understand). You can hit him up and tell him I referred you to him, we have a chat on WhatsApp that we communicate over sometimes.

 

Area-1255, both the blog and the guy behind if you can get in contact with him, are a fantastic resource. Lots of innovative ideas on there; I'm particularly fascinated by what he's written on low dose amisulpride and histamine 3 antagonism wrt to dopamine.

[John250]

The Haders helix Extract arrived today but I wont be taking it for a few days I am currently experimenting with Epitalon (IN) so will continue with that for the next two days. Will try the Haders after that and revert.

Had Babchi extract for a few days prior to starting the Epitalon and can report that the stuff rocks. Its possibly one of the best nootropic herbs I have tried ( I have tried literally hundreds of different herbs ) and in addition also has bone regeneration qualities and is anti cancer ( according to Examine) . I seriously couldn't believe the lift in mood, energy and ability to study when I tried it.
What a coincidence that Lozko55 has mentioned that at the same time that I tried it by accident . I must research this Lozko55 dude. Any other leads ?

What do you feel from Babchi? Is it stimulating/awakening?

[Zed]

Amazing man, can't wait to hear about it! How is Epitalon going for you and what are you expecting to get from it? I've heard it's great for skin and general health but I'm not that interested in paying big bucks for those purposes as opposed to others since I have enough to spend my hard-earned cash on right now.

 

What brand of the extract did you get and what dose are you using? That's incredible to hear man, I need that mood lift and motivation for staying on track and getting over my typical lack of activation energy.

 

Lozko55 is one of the most knowledgeable guys in the noots scene I've come across by far, and you actually remind me of him a lot given your focus on natural stuff (which I don't necessarily share but do understand). You can hit him up and tell him I referred you to him, we have a chat on WhatsApp that we communicate over sometimes.

 

Area-1255, both the blog and the guy behind if you can get in contact with him, are a fantastic resource. Lots of innovative ideas on there; I'm particularly fascinated by what he's written on low dose amisulpride and histamine 3 antagonism wrt to dopamine.

 

Well the "legal mellow cocaine alternative" is a bit of a fizzer for me. :(

Had an allergy dose of around 50-100mg of Ivy Leaf/Hedera helix  (glad  I microdosed as it turns out) and within 20 - 40 mins did feel a mellow sensation ala mild Blue Lotus / Wild Lemon Balm . Unfortunately also felt that drowsy sedating/emotionally flattened  feeling that I seem to get with SSRI's. I dont respond well to SSRI's generally and I dont think I responded well to this herb. Two hours later I was asleep and had some aggressive dreams (may have been the NRI and DRI kicking in) .
No great rush to try it again - if I did it will probably be at night stacked with some African Dream herb or something to potentiate lucid dreaming.  Maybe.
Someone had quoted its KI values as follows ..it  also apparently has very low bio-availability (like 1-2%!)

<quote>Binding affinity (as Ki):
SERT at cerebral cortex: 3.89±0.18 nm
NET at hypothalamus: 0.22±0.04 nm
DAT at striatum: 2.87±0.54 nm
(NET>DAT>SERT, though very high affinity for all three.)
</end quote>

Certainly the SERT aspect seemed to dominate for me. The herb could be useful stacked with different combinations (maybe Mucuna Pruniens) but frankly doesn't seem worth the mucking around.

Epitalon would have to be a game changer for me. Its supposed to be for anti aging - ie telomerase activation (TA)however I found both pinning and IN to have great effects overall on cognition, mood, energy and general sense of physical well being.  Nothing that hits you in the face like cerebrolysin but a discernible lift . Currently pinning SC approx 0.5 mg every second day or third day. Tried IN but while it does have some mood/energy effect certainly not as dramatic as pinning (and relatively wasteful) .
NB also experimenting with Astragalus, Berberine and Ginko as per their effects on TA but they dont appear to be in the same ball park as Epi ...kinda like Ivy leaf/Hedera is not even in the same city ..let alone ball park as cocaine ..lol
 

Thanks for the heads up on Loz and Area ..will hit them up in due course.

[normalizing]

did you get epitalon from those russian pharm sites? jacob, how does low dose amisulpride and histamine 3 antagonism (which one?) work for dopamine? im curious to read that post mentioning this by area 1255

[monowav]

Here are my 2 cents and caveats on all of this (shameless self plug):

• H3r antagonism is pretty powerful stuff - Conessine seems to be like the best thing to do (naturally), but it has a long half life.
• I'm more interested in catuaba's ability for neurogenesis, but finding a good source seems to be the biggest challenge.  

FYI, the spelling for lokzo55 is that the k is before the z

[normalizing]

ive tried various types of catuaba for its purported energy and libido inducing effects but to all of which left me with really dry bitter taste in my mouth