117 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

Summary:

 

Fasting and red light produced astonishingly rapid weight loss without hunger. This was an experiment of 7 days in which I lost 14 pounds.

 

Background:

 

I’m fast approaching 70, and over the past decades I had the willpower to lose weight with exercise and by cutting calories. I would do this for months and then it would all come back. As it was a struggle to lose the weight, this was very discouraging. Recently my will power vanished altogether. I would resolve to go on a fast and I would end up eating more than if I hadn’t made the resolution — within hours! I’ve tried many weight loss ideas over the years, but none worked better than cutting calories and exercise. Until now.

 

Devices using red light (both coherent and incoherent) are being sold as weight loss aids. For instance, there’s a $400 red LED belt from Hammacher Schlemmer that straps around your waist. While I haven’t tried it, the idea seems ridiculous. Because if such a belt were to stimulate fat cells to dump triglycerides, where would this fat go? Most would just redeposit in other fat cells, or in your arteries. [See note 1 below.]

 

Bottom line: You can’t just release fat to the bloodstream if you want to lose weight. You have to burn it up.

 

The experiment:

 

Thus it occurred to me to combine red light with fasting. On the first day of fasting I used 4 red LED flashlights to irradiate my fatty areas each time I began to feel hungry. It took less than a minute to banish hunger this way, so I cut the flashlights to two. By the second day (while on a wilderness trail), I found that 10-15 seconds with one flashlight would banish hunger and/or symptoms of hypoglycemia. It worked so quickly it seemed miraculous. One might suspect a placebo effect, but I’d never encountered placebo effects with weight loss supplements before.

—————————

 

Notes:

 

1. Red light stimulates the release of triglycerides from adipose tissue, but by itself does not reduce weight—

 

Efficacy of Low-Level Laser Therapy for Body Contouring and Spot Fat Reduction

 

In vitro studies suggested that laser treatment increases fat loss from adipocytes by release of triglycerides, without inducing lipolysis or cell lysis . . . low-level laser therapy appears to offer a non-surgical option to mobilize subcutaneous fat for body contouring without weight loss.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5225499/

 

 

2. Red LED flashlights are cheap. While not making any recommendation on brands, Amazon has a pack of three for $18. These are 300 lumens and only 3.5” long. There are much smaller keychain flashlights that would be great for runners, but I haven’t seen one with sufficient power.

 

3. I consumed the following on a daily basis:

One Atkins bar

One teaspoon of essential amino acids

Two teaspoons of sugar-free fiber

A B-complex vitamin, and a few other supplements that aren’t known to impact weight loss.

 

For exercise I hiked/ran several miles every day, which is my usual routine.

 

4. I recommend that you don’t use this in conjunction with C60, as C60 produces ROS when exposed to red light.

 

5. Coherent light is no better than incoherent, as it will lose coherence interacting with fat cells. And as several frequencies of red light have been found to stimulate cells, there is no point in using monochromatic light sources either. Thus, no need for a laser.

 

The coherent properties of laser light can not be maintained when the beam interacts with a biotissue at the molecular level. This conclusion was made first in the paper by Karu (1987). Under physiological conditions, the absorption of low-intensity light by biological systems is purely of noncoherent nature (i.e., photobiological), because the rate of decoherence of photoexcitation (the processes that limit the appearance of quantum effects, and turns them into classical phenomena) is many orders of magnitude higher than the rate of photoexcitation.

http://photobiology..../Coherence.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

[APBT]

Clever title.

 

Am I correct in assuming that the weight loss was primarily driven by the fasting and activity and that the red LED light blunted your hunger?

 

How many days have you been off the protocol?

 

Have you re-gained any of the 14 pounds?

 

Were you adequately hydrated during the seven day experiment?

[Turnbuckle]

I just finished this. But given how easy and painless it is, I think if frees me up to eat what I want and then get rid of it. The red light does more than just eliminate hunger, it keeps the body from slowing down to conserve energy. And there's a funny psychological element as well. Normally when I get hungry, I get visions of food, but after a few days I was getting visions of that flashlight. As for water, I drank quite a bit.

[YOLF]

Sounds interesting. I had previously purchased a 300 LED 650nm strip, I've been wanting to use it for collagen production while I sleep, but I hadn't considered that it might be strong enough to cause weight loss. HMB will help you burn a little more fat, then there's also fat binding fiber and that sort of thing.

 

I think it might be worth noting that their may be differences between the LEDs that we buy which are often discreet wavelengths and those that might have greater range. So what's a good source? That item is for the ones that you used?

[YOLF]

Hmmm, how would you rate your chlorophyll intake?

[Turnbuckle]

I think it might be worth noting that their may be differences between the LEDs that we buy which are often discreet wavelengths and those that might have greater range. So what's a good source? That item is for the ones that you used?

 

 

Yes, the ones I mentioned in the OP I also used, plus another one with slightly less output. The wavelength is not noted, but I see similar flashlights at 625 nm. This is a standard LED wavelength, and while not monochromatic, exhibits a narrow band of between 600 and 650 nm.

 

LED spectra -- https://www.thorlabs...ctgroup_id=3836

 

As for your other question, my chlorophyll intake is very low.

[Oakman]

With all due respect to your efforts to lose weight, which are laudable, I have serious doubts that your red light is helping do that, and certainly not in a mere 10-15 seconds of use of a single LED flashlight. The Hammacher Schlemmer device you refer to is $400 and has 350 LED @650nm. That's likely about 16 watts of LED power and they recommend 10 minute sessions, three times a week. Your budget replacement is powered by 1 (one) AA battery and is 1 (one) LED. Positive reviews, even for that purpose made device, are not showing significant effect (not surprising). I would point you to  research done on light penetration of the skin using IPL light, an exquisitely more intense light than yours @2-20J/cm, shows the possible penetration depth.

 

Furthermore, you are suggesting shining an LED light on your skin, whose light may, at best, penetrate a couple mm deep with minimal fluence, somehow has an effect on your hunger, which is controlled by a completely unrelated mechanism in the body. While some research has been done on LLLT (Low Level Laser Light Therapy), and it is encouraging, much work is still to be done to determine effacacy

 

"Although all the early studies used coherent lasers as the light source, it is now thought that noncoherent light emitting diodes [20] are also effective. The mechanism is based on absorption of red and near-infrared photons by chromophores in the mitochondria (particular cytochrome c oxidase) leading to increases of mitochondrial membrane potential, oxygen consumption, adenosine triphosphate (ATP), a transient increase in reactive oxygen species (ROS) [21], and a release of nitric oxide (NO)."

 

Also, http://www.center4re...rk-weight-loss/

 

Rather, your optimism shows, first and foremost, the power of FASTING (no calories in = fat metabolised and weight lost), and second the human mind's ability to integrate the placebo effect for a random unrelated act (LED flashlight > feeling less hunger).

 

Lest you think I'm denigrating LED therapy or the idea of LED light as beneficial, I'm certainly not. I use whole body therapy @650nm on a regular basis, with no noticeable effect on weight loss that I can see. Perhaps you need to up game with better equipment and see what you can do over the long term?

 

[Turnbuckle]

 

Rather, your optimism shows, first and foremost, the power of FASTING (no calories in = fat metabolised and weight lost), and second the human mind's ability to integrate the placebo effect for a random unrelated act (LED flashlight > feeling less hunger).

 

 

 

I'm always amazed when people go through so much trouble to deny experimental results, esp. when they have to appeal to placebo effects. Still, you almost got the most important point--that most of the weight lost is from fasting. What the red light does is bump up the rate of triglyceride release to erase the hunger signal, thus making this level of fasting possible. 

 

As for the penetration of red light into tissues, keep in mind that it is much greater in fat than in other tissues. The attenuation coefficient (in mm) for 630 nm light through several types of tissue--

 

Rat liver -- 6.36 

Abdominal wall muscle -- 4.33 

Abdominal wall fat -- 17.24 

Kidney -- 4.13 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/11523859

 

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 15 June 2018 - 05:48 PM.

[YOLF]

Hmm... There's a product called 'Joovv,' that is designed specifically for this purpose. It comes in various packages but you either get red light at 660nm, or near IR (NIR) at 850nm, or a 7:8 split with a total of between 60 and 300 LEDs. 

 

This indoor horticulture light has a more complete spectrum (630-750) and would take advantage of more of the efficacy curve.

Then there are some security LED arrays that are 850 NIR spec too. 

 

Both could be hung above your bed and put on a timer.

 

I also purchased some other red LEDs including a standard light socket 660nm and one that didn't say what it was. I saw benefits in my skin when I was using it, but it's from several years ago and was just too weak when you're trying to cover your whole body.

[YOLF]

 

I'm always amazed when people go through so much trouble to deny experimental results, esp. when they have to appeal to placebo effects. Still, you almost got the most important point--that most of the weight lost is from fasting. What the red light does is bump up the rate of triglyceride release to erase the hunger signal, thus making this level of fasting possible. 

 

As for the penetration of red light into tissues, keep in mind that it is much greater in fat than in other tissues. The attenuation coefficient (in mm) for 630 nm light through several types of mouse tissue--

 

 

 

 Plus the red light therapy doesn't say it burns it, just that it helps fat cells remove it faster. I'm fairly certain it doesn't take long to put the fat back into the cell, so it obviously will take more than simply using the light. But the results are better than most can hope to achieve by fasting alone. AND! and that's a big AND! Having more porous fat cells open the door to delivery of lipase into fat cells! Since there are now oral delivery methods for various enzymes, it's reasonable to assume that we could get lipase into the blood stream and from there deliver it into fat cells and kill those suckers off. So will the natural affinity of lipase pull the leaking fat into the blood stream, or can it get into the space between the fat cells and blood vessels? I think it's worth a shot.

 

Was it this topic that showed the pores and shrinkage of fat cells or did I find that elsewhere? Which link did I click?

[Turnbuckle]

 Plus the red light therapy doesn't say it burns it, just that it helps fat cells remove it faster. I'm fairly certain it doesn't take long to put the fat back into the cell, so it obviously will take more than simply using the light. But the results are better than most can hope to achieve by fasting alone. AND! and that's a big AND! Having more porous fat cells open the door to delivery of lipase into fat cells! Since there are now oral delivery methods for various enzymes, it's reasonable to assume that we could get lipase into the blood stream and from there deliver it into fat cells and kill those suckers off. So will the natural affinity of lipase pull the leaking fat into the blood stream, or can it get into the space between the fat cells and blood vessels? I think it's worth a shot.

 

Was it this topic that showed the pores and shrinkage of fat cells or did I find that elsewhere? Which link did I click?

 

Suppose you were able to eliminate all fat cells, then what would happen to the fats you consume in a meal? If you weren't able to burn them off immediately, they would begin to deposit where you don't want them, like in your liver. The real problem is that the brain's hunger sensor is set at a paleolithic level, thus we either need to raise it, or raise the triglyceride output during fasting.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 15 June 2018 - 06:28 PM.

[YOLF]

You're probably right with the clarification that we don't want to act on the brain directly, but rather prevent fat from being able to influence the brain with it's hormonal output. 

 

In healthier people who will generally live longer, their genetics naturally burn fat and carbs faster. So I think that also needs to be part of the solution. Ideal weight = ideal lifespan. We're long overdue for FTO gene therapies.

[Oakman]

 

I'm always amazed when people go through so much trouble to deny experimental results, esp. when they have to appeal to placebo effects. Still, you almost got the most important point--that most of the weight lost is from fasting. What the red light does is bump up the rate of triglyceride release to erase the hunger signal, thus making this level of fasting possible. 

 

As for the penetration of red light into tissues, keep in mind that it is much greater in fat than in other tissues. The attenuation coefficient (in mm) for 630 nm light through several types of tissue--

 

 

 

Again, my concern is that 10 seconds of red light from a flashlight is going to do any of the things your purport it does.  Literature concerning the effectiveness of RLT is done based on a measured dose of photons. Your dose is so small as to be inconsequential. But if it helps you, and you believe in your heart I'm not correct, carry on. The placebo effect is a powerful one, there is no doubt, and a worthwhile addition to anyone's arsenal. I use it regularly myself.

[YOLF]

The Joovv product uses 300 watts minus 6 watts for 5 fans, which is fairly substantial. But you're not on top of it. You're 12-18 inches away. A flashlight like that can pump out 4-5 watts running on a single AA battery (assuming you don't buy the cheap ones that don't last very long) and the LED's used in the Joovv product, if it uses 300 watts for 150 LEDs is about 2 watts or less per LED. So I think a point blank discharge of photons could be sufficient for what he's achieved if there's some kind of feedback loop from this happening that affects the brain. 

 

But like he said, they found that 17mW was sufficient for a limited number of cells and LEDs have only gotten stronger and more efficient than ever. So we're very likely looking at a technological reality that has put the cost and possibility well within reach. There are lots of steps to take that use luminous efficacy and what not to estimate the photon discharge of a particular light source. You could find out what all of those figures are and get a pretty good idea, but I'm fairly certain that the pace of LED efficiency improvement has outrun the concerns that it's not enough power. You're welcome to prove me wrong.

[sthira]

Cool experiment! Kudos to red light. General notes about a seven-day fast -- hunger tends to leave most folks alone after day two or three, that metabolic switch to ketones does a lot to blunt it, some lose the hunger annoyances quickly, like after day one, others take longer. Hunger really isn't a big issue with prolonged fasting, IMHO.

And about that big weight loss, it may be mostly water weight lost, as you prolly know, not all water weight loss, you no doubt lost some fat, too, but much of the poundage may pound right back on again during refeeding, especially if your post-fast calorie count remains the same.

Zapping out fat cells with red light sounds pretty rad, I love the innovative idea and your experimenting with it. Hope you'll keep us updated. I'd try it but I ain't got no fat to lose; I ain't fasting to lose weight, I'm already a walking talking smiling stick from years of PF and CR.

I think if you want to sustain weight loss post-fast then you've got to alter your refeeding strategy. But you're talking about eating whatever you please, then using red light plus fasting to keep weight down.

Some of Krista Varady's IF work indicates intermittent fasters tend not to over-consume post-fast. They eat whatever they please and still keep off weight as long as they stick to IFing. Her work is fascinating, and eaters may only eat like 10% more, I forget the exact percentage, but they tend not to gorge during the feast, and the time restriction itself appears to keep weight managed at lower than pre-fast levels. It's been awhile since I've read her stuff, but seemed kinda like have your cake and eat it, too, if I'm recalling correctly.

Edited by sthira, 16 June 2018 - 02:19 AM.

[Female Scientist]

Great topic! We made a full-body red light sauna at home pretty easily for about $200 with the tips found here: https://www.quantifi...-for-under-150/

[Andey]

Red light is shown to reduce appetite, so I would not dismiss it as a placebo effect

https://www.hindawi....je/2012/530726/

As for optimal effective dosage Ive seen numbers between 10 to 100 mW/cm2. Units converter shows that 7lm/cm2 gives 10mW/cm2. So one LED at 300lm should be enough for 40cm2. Lower intensities would work too just a bit less effective or would need longer exposure. Its a very rough calculation and LED would not light this surface uniformly, but it shows that it's up there to achieve the desired effect.

 

I like the idea that LED light could promote weight loss for targeted regions, for example, a stubborn abdominal area with bad vascularisation. Overall weight loss depends more on the epigenetic switch to efficient fat oxidation and it needs more time than 7 days fast.

 

P.S. 7 kg weight loss is kinda in line what one could expect from 7 days fast. around 2 kilos is a glycogen plus water retention that it causes, plus some food mass in a digestive system - all this will return in few days. Fasting is not a very sustainable tool for weight loss. I believe keto diet is. Look at https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/ and some form of low carb/high carb cycling would be even faster but harsher on a body. But anyway 7 days fast is great )

[Andey]

P.S. I was probably a bit optimistic when wrote that 7kg for 7days is what expected. In fact, it's quite impressive.

[Oakman]

Red light is shown to reduce appetite, so I would not dismiss it as a placebo effect

https://www.hindawi....je/2012/530726/

 

 

Subjects experienced four morning light-exposure conditions for two hours upon wakening: (1) 60 lux of red light (0.325 W/m2, peak = 633 nm, full-width-half-maximum [FWHM] = 14 nm); (2) 60 lux of green light (0.105 W/m2, peak = 532 nm, FWHM = 34 nm); (3) 60 lux of blue light (0.585 W/m2, peak = 475 nm, FWHM = 21 nm); (4) dim light conditions (<0.5 lux at the eye of a 630-nm, red light). Two light emitting diodes (LEDs) were mounted to each of the goggle lenses.

 

=====

So my question is: How does a study consisting of SHINING LED LIGHT (60 lux) on SLEEP DEPRIVED individuals EYES (retinas) for TWO HOURS a day USING GOGGLES to access leptin and ghrelin plasma levels .... correlate IN ANY WAY to shining a flashlight for 10 SECONDS onto RANDOM SKIN with fat underneath?

[Blueflash]

So I bought three of these lights. How close to the body should they be, and does the light need to be focused?

[Turnbuckle]

So I bought three of these lights. How close to the body should they be, and does the light need to be focused?

 

Focusing them makes them somewhat more intense, which is good. They don't need to touch the skin, but pressing them against a fat deposit will reach deeper tissues.

 

BTW, fasting forces mitochondria into fusion, and thus using a fission protocol during this time will screw things up. In a fission state mitochondria will be less efficient and the body will demand more fuel, more than red light can supply. That gap will result in hunger.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 23 June 2018 - 09:35 AM.

[YOLF]

Great topic! We made a full-body red light sauna at home pretty easily for about $200 with the tips found here: https://www.quantifi...-for-under-150/

 

I've been planning to build something like this for a while, would love to see what yours looks like!

[Female Scientist]

I won’t be home for a few weeks, so until then, I can describe our red light DIY rig....Amazon Basics 5 level rolling shoe rack, to provide ample space on which to clamp 5 brooder clamp lamps at various levels. 3 lamps have Thera Bulbs, 2 have the LED red lights I mentioned. My husband and I rotate the lamps per our height and areas of concern. All are hooked to a surge protector (and be careful — this thing gets HOT). I sit in front of it for like 20 minutes a few times per week, and rotate my body like I’m a vertical rotisserie chicken .... the rack is on rollers, which helps move it for use and then for storage.

[Turnbuckle]

A couple of supplements that can be used with this protocol--

 

L-Carnitine (and its many forms) for increasing the triglyceride release and lowering the hunger gap to be dealt with by using red light, and

Sulforaphane, which might be useful the first day or two to insure that mitochondria are in a state of fusion.

 

 

[BelieveWeDoBetterTogether]

BTW, fasting forces mitochondria into fusion, and thus using a fission protocol during this time will screw things up. 

Can you add stearic acid to your fasting to double force the mitochondira into fusion...realize you are somewhat defeating the fast by adding the calories of the stearic acid and the food that you have to mix it up with to make it edible, but perhaps there is a low calorie mix that you could come up with.

[Turnbuckle]

Can you add stearic acid to your fasting to double force the mitochondira into fusion...realize you are somewhat defeating the fast by adding the calories of the stearic acid and the food that you have to mix it up with to make it edible, but perhaps there is a low calorie mix that you could come up with.

 

 

See the post right above yours.

[aribadabar]

BTW, fasting forces mitochondria into fusion, and thus using a fission protocol during this time will screw things up. In a fission state mitochondria will be less efficient and the body will demand more fuel, more than red light can supply. That gap will result in hunger.

 

Fasting upregulates autophagy and, more specifically, mitophagy - a process that happens during fission.

How fasting achieves mitophagy while forcing a fusion state?

[Turnbuckle]

Fasting upregulates autophagy and, more specifically, mitophagy - a process that happens during fission.

How fasting achieves mitophagy while forcing a fusion state?

 

 

There appears to be a difference between fasting and starvation--

 

A fundamental role for mitochondrial dynamics during mitophagy is also supported by the fact that acute fasting promotes hyper-fusion of mitochondria via protein kinase A mediated inhibition of Drp1. This hyperfused state of mitochondria is thought to prevent mitochondrial degradation by mitophagy during short periods of nutrient limitations although mitochondria are eliminated following chronic starvation conditions...

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3969632/

 

[YOLF]

So it occurs to me as I've found a lamp for my red LED light (13 watts, broad spectrum red from GE I think), that the dislocation of the lipids into extracellular space is an opportunity to clean our extracellular space with enzymes or other such things. I'm wondering:

 

• How many AGEs are lipid soluble?
• Which ones are lipid soluble?
• Which ones can be degraded when we have more access?
• Shilajit, I've read can degrade lipofuscin. Is lipofuscin localized to intracellular spaces?
• What other enzymes and/or adjuvants can we deliver while using red light therapy?
• How can we reduce the production of AGEs relative to the production of healthy competitive molecules in combination with this?

Edited by YOLF, 29 June 2018 - 10:26 PM.

[Ames]

Here's a copy of my receipt for the parts that I bought for a 650nm focused LED from LedSupply (no affiliation). I provide it for the parts list and to give a sense of price. It came assembled, though you can buy the parts from them without assembly. You can probably skip the toggle switch. I think that it is a decent option for the price:

 

12VDC10A Wall Wart Power Supply - 12VDC 1AMP $9.99 
1 $9.99 SWITCH-TOG-LDS On-Off Switch - Toggle with 6-Inch Leads $2.49 
1 $2.49 DC-PA-XX / DC-PA-2.1-F Screw-In Terminal Power Plugs 
Options:
Plug Type : Female Plug Size : 2.1mm $1.49 
1 $1.49 ALK-LH-3W-KIT LED Light Housing Kit - 3-Watt 
Options:
LED : Luxeon 1-Up Rebel (+$5.99) Color : Deep-Red Optic : Spot (+$3.00) End-Cap : 1/2" NPT Threaded Hole Assembly : Pre-Assembed (+$9.99) $53.97 
1 $53.97 CORDGRIP-1 Cord Grip Connector $2.99 
1 $2.99 Subtotal Amount : $70.93

Shipping (USPS Priority) : $5.99

Tax Amount : $0.00

Current Total : $76.92

 

Edited by golgi1, 30 June 2018 - 04:42 AM.