117 replies to this topic

[tolerant]

Would this flashlight work for the protocol?

 

I'm sorry for being repetitive, but could someone who, unlike myself, understands LED, lumens, watts, and nanometers, coherent/incoherent please give the green light (no pun intended) to my choice of flashlight, and if not, then why?

 

Also, Turnbuckle, you wrote in your original post [emphasis mine]:

 

On the first day of fasting I used 4 red LED flashlights to irradiate my fatty areas each time I began to feel hungry.

 

How did you use four at once? Wouldn't you need four arms? Is one flashlight enough?

Edited by tolerant, 17 September 2018 - 09:39 PM.

[tolerant]

I'm sorry for being repetitive, but could someone who, unlike myself, understands LED, lumens, watts, and nanometers, coherent/incoherent please give the green light (no pun intended) to my choice of flashlight, and if not, then why?

 

Also, Turnbuckle, you wrote in your original post [emphasis mine]:

On the first day of fasting I used 4 red LED flashlights to irradiate my fatty areas each time I began to feel hungry.

How did you use four at once? Wouldn't you need four arms? Is one flashlight enough?

 

OK, I think I get it now -- the flashlights you used are mini flashlights, so you could probably hold them all easily in one hand.

 

But I still ask that someone who understands technical specifications required approves the flashlight I found on my domestic eBay. I have already ordered the Atkins bars, carnitine, stearic acid and sulforaphane. All I need is the correct flashlight. Please.

 

Here's the link again: https://www.ebay.com...IwAAOSwdfZbF6uK

Edited by tolerant, 19 September 2018 - 02:42 AM.

[YOLF]

I don't remember the exact details, but you want lumens for output and it has to be in the right spectrum of red. Any red might work if there's enough of it, but iirc, 650nm are the ideal. Infrared can also be of benefit. 

[tolerant]

I don't remember the exact details, but you want lumens for output and it has to be in the right spectrum of red. Any red might work if there's enough of it, but iirc, 650nm are the ideal. Infrared can also be of benefit. 

 

So, with respect to output, the more lumens, the better? I just realised I can find the right wavelength if I enter it as a search item on eBay. But I only get tiny laser pointers with 650 nm. Which makes me want to get one of the flashlights the OP and the other person on here had success with.

Edited by tolerant, 19 September 2018 - 05:51 AM.

[Oakman]

So, with respect to output, the more lumens, the better? I just realised I can find the right wavelength if I enter it as a search item on eBay. But I only get tiny laser pointers with 650 nm. Which makes me want to get one of the flashlights the OP and the other person on here had success with.

 

I wouldn't say "the more lumens, the better". Light is energy and you don't want to 'bake' your cells. Esp. as your eyes don't 'see' all light frequencies the same. As you can notice, humans don't register deep red well. You could over do it without noticing much.

 

Edited by Oakman, 19 September 2018 - 01:16 PM.

[tolerant]

While people are still awake in the US, can I please ask, if I have sulforaphane on hand, but not stearic acid, what is a good dose to take during the first two days to kick-start the process?

[dlewis1453]

Hi Turnbuckle and others, 

 

In your experience, does this protocol have any sort of localized fat loss effect on a specific area?

 

My reasoning is that since red light stimulates release of triglycerides from fat cells, we could shine the red light on trouble areas and lose more weight from those specific areas. 

 

 

[jacobjerondin]

Anyone else tried this? It sounds way too good to be true but so does a lot of cutting edge biohacking stuff and on the other hand I've read tons of incredible reports about red light, seems very promising overall!

 

I have a massive appetite all the time these days and seem to be caught in a terrible dilemma between gaining a pound or two a week so that I can not feel hungry and unfocused all the time and sleep decently, or maintaining my weight but feeling hungry and unfocused all the time and waking up after 6 - 7 hours of sleep with my stomach growling and other such issues.

 

I've tried suppressing my appetite with supplements but that tends to just give me a bad rebound effect where I have to eat more later or I feel even worse. I know I'm getting into insulin resistance since diabetes runs in my family and am pretty sure I'm dealing with some bad leptin resistance as well. I'd really love to figure out a way to get back to a reasonable level of appetite and start losing some of the weight I've put on lately without feeling terrible all the time.

 

For anyone that has tried using red light in this manner, I have a few questions:

 

1) do y'all have any issues with rebound weight gain once you stopped using the red light? How did you feel when you stopped using it overall? I know that a lot of diets and supplements will cause that exact issue because they make the brain think the body is starving so you get hungrier and hungrier over time until you break and eat to make up for the deficit.

 

2) How was your sleep? Would you wake up in the middle of the night and have to use the red light to kill your hunger? I'm so tired of my hunger waking me up and preventing me from getting the 8 hours of sleep I need, I can't keep dealing with it.

 

3) Do you recommend using red light for weight loss overall, and is it as incredible as it sounds from these posts from on it?

[PAMPAGUY]

What worked for me was 2 gm Metformin daily. .5 gm morning, 1 gm 12:00-14:00, .5 gm afternoon. No side effects. Anything less than 2 gm did not work for me. Anymore than 2 gm does not help anymore. Kills hunger, mentally do not miss food. Search this site for more articles.

[jacobjerondin]

Hmm well that's a nice anecdote however Ray Peat thinks metformin may be dangerous and I tend to subscribe to his ideas (not all of them, but many of them are on the right track). https://raypeatforum...s-lactate.3896/

 

I'm still hoping someone can answer my question about whether any weight lost will return once one stops using red light and whether it is actually a sustainable way to lose weight in the long run.

[8bitmore]

Interested in this "red light as releaser of energy from fat cells" theory from Turnbuckle but had rummage in drawers rather than ordering any red flash lights. From prior experiments I have a Beurer infrared heat lamp ... it comes with a Philips PAR38E 150W lamp. What's great about this lamp is that it includes an information sheet from Philips (http://www.infraphil...phil-PAR38E.pdf) that clearly indicates which nm wavelength best penetrates to the subcutaneous tissue layer, it is just about 1000nm as per this little data graph:

The lamp itself is created to peak output at 1000nm so I am giving this a try at moment: 1 minute on tummy fat when hungry to test over a couple of days, no obvious feeling of satiation observed on first few goes but will try in fasted (+15hrs) state and report back here.

[Turnbuckle]

It's more than just penetration. See this post and the discussion above it for links to various papers. Specific frequencies have an outsized effect due at least in part to absorption by mitochondrial enzymes.

 

The aim of the present work is to analyze available action spectra for various biological responses of HeLa cells irradiated with monochromatic light of 580–860 nm....Results: The peak positions are between 613.5 and 623.5 nm (in one spectrum, at 606 nm), in the red maximum. The far-red maximum has exact peak positions between 667.5 and 683.7 nm in different spectra. Two near infrared maxima have peak positions in the range 750.7–772.3 nm and 812.5–846.0 nm, respectively. Conclusions: In the wavelength range important for phototherapy (600–860 nm), there are four “active” regions, but peak positions are not exactly the same for all spectra. 

 

 

[8bitmore]

It's more than just penetration. See this post and the discussion above it for links to various papers. Specific frequencies have an outsized effect due at least in part to absorption by mitochondrial enzymes.

 

Yeah, read that already (thanks for procuring & referring the facts in relation to the 4 absorption peaks) - I hope that the frequency ramp of a red infra lamp that peaks at 1000 nm will easily include the 600-900 range in sizeable amounts, indeed the PDF I linked in post #71 includes the quip: "High IR-A radiation level for deeper penetration of muscles and veins", IR-A (asides from dubious connotations to Ireland) refers to the ~760-1400 nm spectrum so I'm easily hitting to the two later peaks with this lamp (750.7–772.3 nm and 812.5–846.0 nm) and the fact that they also mention in the documentation that "The red filter also cuts off light below 600 nm to reduce radiation which would be absorbed by the blood haemoglobin" bodes well for the two first peaks being saturated as well (613.5-623.5 nm and 667.5-683.7 nm).

 

Real test for me though will be whether I "feel" any better doing this while fasting for real. We shall see.

[mike20g]

Is red light doing anything else besides killing hunger signal? I am disciplined enough to fast without extra help, but I tried red light with low lux out of curiosity two times and both times this interfered with my dreams. No, I did not dream about food, rather my dreams were very vivid. Red light has to be doing something else.

[Turnbuckle]

Is red light doing anything else besides killing hunger signal? I am disciplined enough to fast without extra help, but I tried red light with low lux out of curiosity two times and both times this interfered with my dreams. No, I did not dream about food, rather my dreams were very vivid. Red light has to be doing something else.

 

One possibility: Red light applied to fat cells increases the release of triglycerides. Triglycerides can increase dopamine levels, and dopamine can increase vivid dreams.

[mike20g]

Looks like a possibility. Also right after using the flashlight I felt very relaxed as if I took some kind of calming pill. I will use flashlight again next week to see if I get the same response.

[mike20g]

I tried flashlight again yesterday. Definitely felt similar to first times, except that I did not see any dreams this time. Unlike the first time, yesterday my sleep was interrupted because of unrelated matter. Interestingly I feel something in my gut every time I apply red light to fat around stomach area and definitely something affecting brain. I will continue with flashlight on non regular basis.

[srahmouni]

Turnbuckle, I've been working with nootropics for several years and came across this thread as well as your mitochondria and stem cell protocols. I am no where near as versed as everyone else here seems to be on these topics but my first question would be, as a woman too near 60, would the protocols be the same or adjusted in any way? Thanks!

[srahmouni]

D

Edited by srahmouni, 26 October 2019 - 01:39 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle, I've been working with nootropics for several years and came across this thread as well as your mitochondria and stem cell protocols. I am no where near as versed as everyone else here seems to be on these topics but my first question would be, as a woman too near 60, would the protocols be the same or adjusted in any way? Thanks!

 

I haven't seen any sex difference in these protocols, but there haven't been many reports, either. I don't recommend the stem cell protocol until you reach geriatric age, when stem cell pools have gone into decline even while the rate of somatic cell senescence is rapidly going up. And also because the long term viability of stem cells when stimulated this way is unknown. You can use the mito protocol at any age, but if you don't have significant levels of defective mitochondria, you won't gain any benefit -- and that's something you will be able to feel (or not feel, to be precise). As for this red light protocol, you will know quickly if it works for you.

[lancebr]

So, I got a question.

 

If the red light helps to lose fat in the areas it is used on, then if someone is using it on their face

 

for wrinkle purposes; then what keeps it from causing fat loss in the face? Facial fat loss is not a good

 

thing since it makes your face  look older.

[srahmouni]

lancebr, I had that same thought since I use a red light on my face to combat wrinkles and I never noticed any fat loss.  I suspect the release of triglycerides is very small but enough so to help curb hunger as Turnbuckle surmised.

[Mike1024]

Sunlight at the earths surface is about 1.3 W/m^2/nm so the intensity (assuming light between 600 to 650 nm) is about 65 W per square meter or  6.5 mW per sq. cm.

I find it hard to believe that red light at or below this intensity would have any notable effect on the body so look for a light source with a intensity of at least 100 mW per sq. meter.

 

LEDs convert about 25% of the power into light so to cover 100 sq. cm of skin with 100 mW per sq. cm red light would take 40 W of electrical power. A whole body source would take 2 to 4 kW and it would be unpractical for a home in the US or Canada with 120 V AC mains at 20 A current.

[mike20g]

You don't have to believe. Easiest way is to try it.

[Turnbuckle]

Sunlight at the earths surface is about 1.3 W/m^2/nm so the intensity (assuming light between 600 to 650 nm) is about 65 W per square meter or  6.5 mW per sq. cm.

I find it hard to believe that red light at or below this intensity would have any notable effect on the body so look for a light source with a intensity of at least 100 mW per sq. meter.

 

LEDs convert about 25% of the power into light so to cover 100 sq. cm of skin with 100 mW per sq. cm red light would take 40 W of electrical power. A whole body source would take 2 to 4 kW and it would be unpractical for a home in the US or Canada with 120 V AC mains at 20 A current.

 

As used here, the actual weight loss comes as usual from dieting and exercise. Red light is only an aid in dealing with hunger. It hypothetically raises triglyceride output sufficiently to kill the hunger signal. Also, you are making assumptions--first that more light is better, and second that all frequencies that do not stimulate mitochondrial activity are neutral. Neither is the case. Red light is far more penetrating than light with shorter wavelengths, and specific frequencies of red light are stimulating, while other frequencies may reduce activity. Blue light can actually cause ATP depletion and dysfunction.

 

a biphasic dose response has been frequently observed where low levels of light have a much better effect than higher levels.

 

 

See Figure. 5 of this paper, which shows the average effectiveness of various wavelengths on cells.

Attached Files

•  Red light.PNG   133.58KB   0 downloads

Edited by Turnbuckle, 28 October 2019 - 11:48 PM.

[srahmouni]

So, I have a device, that is for use on the face to stimulate collagen, that produces red light as well.  I applied it to my abdominal area moving the location slightly every minute or so for a total of 10 minutes.  I used it yesterday and today.  It did slightly reduce hunger for about an hour afterward but also, I noticed a flushed feeling (similar to a niacin flush and I am way beyond menopausal heat flashes) about 10 minutes after finishing the light session.  The flush both times lasted only a few minutes.  Could the flush be a consequence of triglyceride release?

[Oakman]

Sunlight at the earths surface is about 1.3 W/m^2/nm so the intensity (assuming light between 600 to 650 nm) is about 65 W per square meter or  6.5 mW per sq. cm.

I find it hard to believe that red light at or below this intensity would have any notable effect on the body so look for a light source with a intensity of at least 100 mW per sq. meter.

 

LEDs convert about 25% of the power into light so to cover 100 sq. cm of skin with 100 mW per sq. cm red light would take 40 W of electrical power. A whole body source would take 2 to 4 kW and it would be unpractical for a home in the US or Canada with 120 V AC mains at 20 A current.

 

Some of your assumptions are off. Here I show a reading of 99.9 w/m² @ 1-2" distance from my 660 nm light therapy panel. It consumes about 16 watts for the 1' x 1' panel. I have three hanging vertically for whole body treatment. Standing close gets the approx 100 w/m², while rotating x4 90 deg on an equal time basis gets a whole body treatment for approx. 50 watts.

 

 

While this luminance is nothing compared to full sun, this is a very narrow frequency band of light, not full spectrum sunlight.

Edited by Oakman, 29 October 2019 - 02:25 PM.

[Mike1024]

Some of your assumptions are off. Here I show a reading of 99.9 w/m² @ 1-2" distance from my 660 nm light therapy panel. It consumes about 16 watts for the 1' x 1' panel. I have three hanging vertically for whole body treatment. Standing close gets the approx 100 w/m², while rotating x4 90 deg on an equal time basis gets a whole body treatment for approx. 50 watts.

 

 

While this luminance is nothing compared to full sun, this is a very narrow frequency band of light, not full spectrum sunlight.

 

Sorry but I think your meter is off. It is a solar light meter (TES 1333) not a red light meter.

 

 

 

[Oakman]

Sorry but I think your meter is off. It is a solar light meter (TES 1333) not a red light meter.

 

Meaning exactly what?

[Mike1024]

As used here, the actual weight loss comes as usual from dieting and exercise. Red light is only an aid in dealing with hunger. It hypothetically raises triglyceride output sufficiently to kill the hunger signal. Also, you are making assumptions--first that more light is better, and second that all frequencies that do not stimulate mitochondrial activity are neutral. Neither is the case. Red light is far more penetrating than light with shorter wavelengths, and specific frequencies of red light are stimulating, while other frequencies may reduce activity. Blue light can actually cause ATP depletion and dysfunction.

 

 

See Figure. 5 of this paper, which shows the average effectiveness of various wavelengths on cells.

 

Turnbuckle,

I was assuming a simple dose effect. (exposure time)(intensity) = dose and that the dose was monotonically related to the effect. Maybe it only works for a range of red light intensity or maybe the effect is canceled by exposure to other wave lengths in white light.