117 replies to this topic

[Mike1024]

Meaning exactly what?

 

That your measurement of 99.9 W/m^2 is wrong. You need to calibrate it for red light vs white light.

[Oakman]

That your measurement of 99.9 W/m^2 is wrong. You need to calibrate it for red light vs white light.

Of course that would be ideal, but it is both difficult to perform (what is the standard 660 nm LED curve for example, and financially impossible for anyone lacking a full laboratory of photonics equipment). And what would it prove regarding what is being discussed here? Likely, the 660nm irradiance response of these LEDs is being under registered and so the output is too...or maybe not....but it is also unlikely to be significantly in error.

 

So I'll not belabor this point here further, as it's not the subject of this thread, but suffice to say the spec for the TESS-1333 is, "Spectral response:400-1100nm" and so covers the range being discussed. And yes, accuracy is quoted as to sunlight. Nevertheless, solar power meters are said to do a respectable job measuring LLLT devices, even without re-calibration, and especially to measure differences between similar light sources, at least according to random manufacturers of light therapy devices, as below.

 

https://platinumther...-therapy-device

 

"A common device for comparing and measuring the irradiance of a red light therapy device is a solar irradiance meter which is indeed a very accurate tool especially for comparisons between two lights. These meters use different units than we use in the light therapy industry which is watts per square meter, or abbreviated this would be  W/M²."

 

"A popular and cost-effective way to the measure the irradiance of a device is with a solar irradiance meter, a device we mentioned earlier. There are other devices for this, but they are incredibly expensive and cost prohibitive.  Solar power meters are extremely accurate devices that are specifically tuned to the wavelengths of light that we are working with.  There are particular other therapy light companies who will tell you that the more expensive devices are the ONLY accurate meters you can use, probably because they know you won’t buy multiple red light therapy devices just to send them to a lab for testing to figure out which one is better.

 

The notion that solar irradiance meters are inaccurate is false and the only companies or people that would say this are those with something to hide and motivations to intentionally deceive the community for monetary gains."

 

https://redlightman....therapy-dosing/

 

"The power density of light from any LED or laser therapy device can be tested with a ‘solar power meter’ – a product that is usually sensitive to light in the 400nm – 1100nm range – giving a reading in mW/cm² or W/m² (100W/m² = 10mW/cm²)."

[Mike1024]

Of course that would be ideal, but it is both difficult to perform (what is the standard 660 nm LED curve for example, and financially impossible for anyone lacking a full laboratory of photonics equipment). And what would it prove regarding what is being discussed here? Likely, the 660nm irradiance response of these LEDs is being under registered and so the output is too...or maybe not....but it is also unlikely to be significantly in error.

...

 

Oakman,

 

Sorry but I disagree. Since this subject is getting somewhat off topic, I will drop it.

 

Thanks,

Mike  

[paka]

To state the obvious, an attempt to achieve the results in the OP the same procedure needs to be followed. Meaningful speculation beyond the OP requires a lot of knowledge wrt PBM/LLLT and is beyond our scope here to even summarize. Despite 30+ years and 30K+ PBM (and many other acronyms) studies/trials/articles, it is only recently that even 'dosage' measurement/definition has been standardized, and there are several hypotheses on the basic mechanisms (CCox, interfacial water. ion channels...) Knowledge  is accumulating, MR Hamblin (PubMed) is a good place to start (latest to earliest).

As concerns the light source, I offer the following.

The OPs link (not a recommendation, but presumably similar to what he used) is still available.

300 lumens requires ~4.5W of LED total power and at 15% efficiency puts out 0.7W of red light (likely at 635nm, ie "NASA" LED, cheap, etc...). At a 2cm lens diam..this is an average ~0.2W/sq.cm (.7W/pi). At 10-15 sec  total energy delivered is 7-10J (2-3 J/sq.cm.) at skin surface. This is within the range of accepted effective parameters at/near skin surface, and supports OPs described 'mechanism' (dosage at vagus nerve, microbiome likely 'too low')

In a nutshell , spend $18 and go for it, and please share results.

 

[Mr Matsubayashi]

There is plenty of IR in the suns black body radiation. If satiety was achieved with a red torch while hiking outside i'd think there is a good chance of placebo, keeping in mind that hunger does resolve itself. The torch could be legitimate, maybe a certain intensity of IR is required to make cells dump lipids. What is interesting is the easy opportunity to design an experiment with a sham light device. Have the lighting device flush against your skin, have the power button rigged to work randomly on button press and have it digitally time log its actual operation onto a txt file. The sham could be further enhanced by a conduction electric heater that creates a similar sensation. At the same time maintain a user log of when the button was pressed and time to alleviate hunger. A month of this could generate some interesting data. An obvious product would be a waist band with leds under your shirt that has leads to a power pack and timed switch in your pocked with vibration to indicate when the 5min timer has expired/off. 

 

https://en.wikipedia...spectrum_en.svg

 

[Turnbuckle]

There is plenty of IR in the suns black body radiation. If satiety was achieved with a red torch while hiking outside i'd think there is a good chance of placebo, keeping in mind that hunger does resolve itself. The torch could be legitimate, maybe a certain intensity of IR is required to make cells dump lipids. What is interesting is the easy opportunity to design an experiment with a sham light device. Have the lighting device flush against your skin, have the power button rigged to work randomly on button press and have it digitally time log its actual operation onto a txt file. The sham could be further enhanced by a conduction electric heater that creates a similar sensation. At the same time maintain a user log of when the button was pressed and time to alleviate hunger. A month of this could generate some interesting data. An obvious product would be a waist band with leds under your shirt that has leads to a power pack and timed switch in your pocked with vibration to indicate when the 5min timer has expired/off. 

 

https://en.wikipedia...spectrum_en.svg

 

 

Specific frequencies are associated with mitochondrial stimulation. See Fig. 5 of this paper. Some frequencies, particularly at the blue end of the spectrum, actually depress mito activity. The purpose of stimulating mitochondria with specific red frequencies is to stimulate the release of triglycerides to reduce or eliminate the hunger signal, while the actual weight loss is due to fasting and exercise. For most people, fasts quickly fail due to hunger. Red light of the right frequencies can be most helpful during the initial days of a fast when hunger is greatest, before triglycerides are mobilized from adipose tissue. The biggest deficiency of this method is having to resort to a flashlight, and to remember to use it when hungry. Ideally someone will eventually market an LED patch that increases triglyceride levels sufficiently to prevent hunger. This could operate continuously like a nicotine patch, except it would be placed over fatty tissue.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 20 January 2020 - 12:42 PM.

[sthira]

For most people, fasts quickly fail due to hunger.

I think fasts often fail because of more than just hunger. Sure, the first day or two of a fast can be psychologically challenging; but no one is actually “hungry” after a few days without food. Short fasts (eg, days 1,2,3) are more about breaking the body’s habit of frequently feeding. Like breaking any animal’s habitual pattern. But once past that initial hump, (prolonged) fasting becomes so much easier, it feels natural and good, like sleep or exercise. Of course prolonged fasting (>3 days) has challenging ups and downs — again like sleep and exercise. Going through these challenges safely and mindfully strengthens both the mind and body — prolonged fasting make you stronger. (Of course the caveats of who you are and what’s your state of health).

A bigger challenge seems the uncertainty regarding the alleged healthfulness of fasting itself. If people were more certain that it’s healthy, they’d do it more often. Like sleep and exercise. When I prolong fast (which is often) I can’t really communicate that I’m fasting with anyone around me because few understand the benefits. Nearly everyone, even doctors and medically-trained people, immediately point out the detriments, they tell me it’s dangerous, it’s unhealthy, stop fasting before you hurt yourself, they say. Eat! Everyone says this.

So more than the temporary discomforts is the lack of support from science — science that says fasting is healthy and then the message is passed into mainstream thought. People think fasting is bad, so they don’t do it.

[mike20g]

I want to share an interesting observation with you. I do not do red flashlight, but several days ago I added creatine to my current list of "supplements". I know that creatine increases water retention and you would expect weight gain. But it is interesting that adding creatine completely removed sense of satiety. I was feeling very hungry immediately after meal for the entire day for several days as I took creatine. Once I stopped creatine I immediately restored the sense of satiety after meal returning to normal state. Curious what caused it. And curious if there is any benefit of doing creatine together with flashlight technique to kill hunger signal.

[Turnbuckle]

I want to share an interesting observation with you. I do not do red flashlight, but several days ago I added creatine to my current list of "supplements". I know that creatine increases water retention and you would expect weight gain. But it is interesting that adding creatine completely removed sense of satiety. I was feeling very hungry immediately after meal for the entire day for several days as I took creatine. Once I stopped creatine I immediately restored the sense of satiety after meal returning to normal state. Curious what caused it. And curious if there is any benefit of doing creatine together with flashlight technique to kill hunger signal.

 

Creatine ups AMPK and AMPK increases hunger. Mice who are AMPK deficient don't eat as much -- https://pubmed.ncbi....lin-resistance/

 

So you might want to avoid creatine while dieting/fasting.

 

I've found that the mito fission/fusion state has a definite impact on hunger. Fission increases hunger while fusion reduces it. This likely has to do with the efficiency of mitochondria increasing with fusion, thus making do with less fuel. To achieve fusion without calories, I recommend 50 mg of sulforaphane, such as the Thorne product Crucera-SGS, while avoiding NAD+ products, which increase fission.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 23 January 2020 - 08:16 PM.

[mike20g]

Thank you for the explanation! I tried Amvacol before and even brocolli sprouts, but was not impressed. Will give it another try. I will educate myself on mitochondria fission/fusion using your relevant thread to understand the subject better. As for creatine I am taking a pause, but when I decide to restart it I will likely take it before bed, not very concerned with timing and will likely couple it with red flashlight, it does curb my hunger.

[Turnbuckle]

A bigger challenge seems the uncertainty regarding the alleged healthfulness of fasting itself. If people were more certain that it’s healthy, they’d do it more often. Like sleep and exercise. When I prolong fast (which is often) I can’t really communicate that I’m fasting with anyone around me because few understand the benefits. Nearly everyone, even doctors and medically-trained people, immediately point out the detriments, they tell me it’s dangerous, it’s unhealthy, stop fasting before you hurt yourself, they say. Eat! Everyone says this.
 

 

I've never heard anyone say that. Of course it depends on the culture. I know there are mothers and grandmothers out there who insist of stuffing anyone who comes within range. If you live with such people, fasting could be very difficult.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 06 February 2020 - 01:10 PM.

[jacobjerondin]

Turnbuckle... Bought this red LED flashlight at Amazon. Have tried it for a few days now. Using the flashlight in the way you describe. My anecdotal experience confirms yours. Strong desire for food drops dramatically very quickly.

 

I've been doing L-Carnitine and Sulforaphane for a while so getting going was easy. I haven't tried fasting yet, just extreme low carb. But I can easily imagine doing fasting because the red LED light takes removes any strong desire for food.

 

 

Thanks! I'll let you choose which one. By the way, for use at home you can pull out the big guns--

https://www.amazon.c...e?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

The one drawback for personal use is the heatsink with its aluminum fins. Another possibility that covers those sharp edges--

https://www.amazon.c...L70_&dpSrc=srch

 

 

Thanks so much for sharing the potentially revolutionary protocol Turnbuckle! I'm really trying my best to implement it, however, I'm having some serious issues. I've thought a lot about this so any outside insight would be really helpful.

 

Just a little background, I have a massive amount of visceral fat to lose and have extreme hunger issues. I've started keto in an attempt to get rid of the fat while also healing my metabolism and think that should synergize well with this protocol. I'm really hoping to replicate the results of "HighDesertWizard" and get this to work without fasting, if such a thing is possible.

 

I've been on keto for about a week now and am finding that so far I'm feeling hungry much of the time as I generally did while eating carbs previously. I was really hoping the red light would help with this, however, I haven't really been able to get it to work so far. I got a bulb that I thought seemed similar to but potentially better than the "big gun" you recommended, Turnbuckle, this product:

 https://www.amazon.c...f/dp/B07JW9RZ7K

 

I thought it would be better because it has some of the NIR (i.e., near infrared spectrum, specifically 850nm). Looking back at the graph of the wavelengths we want to focus on, it looks like neither 660nm nor 850nm are well suited for this purpose at all, so these cheap bulbs are actually much less effective than the simple flashlights, which I believe you said Turnbuckle are mostly somewhere around 625nm?

 

So I was thinking about getting a 2000 lumen flashlight like the one HighDesertWizard got, however, I'm not sure if it'll work well for me since all my fat is visceral. You said the red light penetrates strongly into "abdominal wall fat" but I assume you mean subcutaneous fat around the abs by that? I'm thinking that I might need NIR to get to the visceral fat. Thus, I guess the better option for me might be to get an 830nm bulb since that seems to be the peak for absorption in terms of the NIR spectrum. The only bulbs that I can find that have 830nm specifically are a least $100 (if bought online domestically) or will take many months to arrive from China though.

 

One interesting option would be something like this: 

https://www.amazon.c...n/dp/B07Y4QBJY1

It's basically a LED bulb that has tons of different colors you can control with a remote. I wouldn't be sure how to find the NIR wavelengths though (assuming it has those) except maybe by trial and error.

 

Anyway, just wanted to see if y'all think I'm on the right track that NIR light is required to get to visceral fat and if you guys have any other suggestions or tips for me. If anyone else has got this to work, particularly with visceral fat, I'd love to hear about it! Thanks in advance

Edited by jacobjerondin, 14 October 2020 - 10:30 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Fasting and exercise eliminate the fat. Particular frequencies of red light stimulate fat cells to release triglycerides that diminish the hunger signal. This is an aid to fasting, essentially, but is not itself going to get rid of fat if you continue to eat.

 

If the AR lights I recommended in the OP -- https://www.amazon.c...e?ie=UTF8&psc=1 -- don't work for you, then those other lights you linked to probably won't work either.

 

Note: I usually remove the lens and lens cap of the red-light flashlight to get the highest possible irradiance.

[jacobjerondin]

Fasting and exercise eliminate the fat. Particular frequencies of red light stimulate fat cells to release triglycerides that diminish the hunger signal. This is an aid to fasting, essentially, but is not itself going to get rid of fat if you continue to eat.

 

If the AR lights I recommended in the OP -- https://www.amazon.c...e?ie=UTF8&psc=1 -- don't work for you, then those other lights you linked to probably won't work either.

 

Note: I usually remove the lens and lens cap of the red-light flashlight to get the highest possible irradiance.

 

Thanks for your reply! I am absolutely aware that you need to burn the fat you're releasing through red light of course.

 

Have you used that product to lose visceral fat? I'm probably going to get a AR flashlight like that one soon, but I am wondering if the light penetrates deeply enough to get to visceral fat as opposed to subcutaneous. I still have a feeling that since near infrared light penetrates much more deeply than red light, I might need the former to make it work for my fat distribution, since I don't have much if any subcutaneous fat.

Edited by jacobjerondin, 16 October 2020 - 04:55 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

 I don't have much if any subcutaneous fat.

 

You must have a very odd body type, so I can't give you an answer to your question. I can only speak from my own experience, that it doesn't take much to turn off the hunger signal, so any subcutaneous fat will do. And my experience with fasting is that the first two or three days is critical. That's when the real hunger occurs, and that's when red light is most helpful. That makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, as the body doesn't want to give up its fat reserves unless you really need them. But after a few days of no food, the hunger signal becomes counter-productive.

[Ken Mark]

I have a massive amount of visceral fat to lose and have extreme hunger issues.

There was a mice study that showed mice fed stearic acid had same overall body fat as control, but much less visceral fat, despite somewhat higher caloric intake.

Some forum members who tried Turnbuckle's fission-fusion protocol (which involves stearic acid) have reported in "Manipulating Mitochondrial Dynamics" thread that they've lost visceral fat in pounds.

[userCK]

Haha, I end up at another Turnbuckle thread. I recently got hair tissue test done and found out that my copper and calcium levels are quite high, above range. While zinc, magnesium are closer to lower bound of the range. Long story short, ended-up at Dr. Wilson's site where he talks about long-term protocol for removing toxic things from body, including excess copper etc.

 

One of the thing he recommends is daily red-light-infrared (heat) sauna. He has DIY instructions for buying specific 250w red heat lamps as well. That's all good and dandy. 

 

But then I came across Red Light Man - they sell a lot of LED based Red Light Therapy devices. These devices don't emit much heat, well, because they're LED.  As I was not sure if this would work, I decided to email them and specifically ask if they have red light devices that help remove excess copper from the body. 

 

They recommend red light devices but WITHOUT heat. They stated that heat is actually quite bad in this case. I'm quoting their message below:

 

What you are talking about with heat lamps is not a photobiomodulation (red light therapy) product, and will actually inhibit the effects from red light and near infrared light (600-900nm).

Any type of heat is the enemy of light therapy. ‘Infrared’ radiation starts at 700nm+, but it is only from about 900nm+ that the infrared begins to be absorbed by water molecules in your skin, leading to a heating effect. This will cause premature skin aging and eye health issues in the long term.

It might sound like they are similar to our products (red heat lamp, infrared heat, infrared therapy) but in fact they are completely antithetical, doing different things to the body and even working against the benefits of light therapy.

The reason that heat therapy is not compatible with light therapy is that when you heat a cell about 10 degrees higher than normal body temperature, the respiratory enzymes get denatured and the function of them is broken. Since red/near infrared light acts on the same enzymes, heating a cell completely blocks the effects. Even a moderate (a few degrees) heating of the skin/body leads to negative respiratory enzyme effects. These enzymes contain and use copper molecules.

So with heat lamps, you are actually preventing your body from using copper. It would lower your body's utilisation of copper, leading to a backlog/excess.

 

With proper red light therapy (without heat), you are improving your cellular function and energy production. This leads to new cell formation and new mitochondria formation (mitochondriogenesis), using up your excess copper in a productive and healthy way.

 

 

Anybody knows if Red Heat Lamp or LED (without much heat) is better for removing excess copper from the body?

 

 

[jacobjerondin]

There was a mice study that showed mice fed stearic acid had same overall body fat as control, but much less visceral fat, despite somewhat higher caloric intake.

Some forum members who tried Turnbuckle's fission-fusion protocol (which involves stearic acid) have reported in "Manipulating Mitochondrial Dynamics" thread that they've lost visceral fat in pounds.

 

Thanks so much for the response Ken, it's truly appreciated! I've been aware of that thread for a little while now however I haven't got around to reading thru very much of it, beyond the fact that basically everyone decided that mango butter or other high stearic acid butters were better than stearic acid on its own (very important to know if you do the protocol).

 

There are so many potential pathways to target this issue of metabolic syndrome/visceral fat accumulation; it's a bit overwhelming trying to decide which to apply my very limited resources towards. I do bet my mitochondria are probably significantly dysfunctional so I will definitely investigate that therapy further as a potential route to healing.

[hsibai]

In principle it is simple, but you've missed the point of this thread: What do you do about hunger?

A possible complementary method, in addition to IR light, is consumption of Yerba Mate tea. I found it effective at suppressing hunger. I regularly use it when I am fasting. I did some searching and it seems there is some science behind it as it seems to go far beyond hunger suppression making it in my opinion a complementary ingredient to this protocol.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5579675/

[Turnbuckle]

See this post for a method of cleaning up your mitochondria that will suppress hunger. 

[mike20g]

Creatine ups AMPK and AMPK increases hunger. Mice who are AMPK deficient don't eat as much -- https://pubmed.ncbi....lin-resistance/

 

So you might want to avoid creatine while dieting/fasting.

 

I've found that the mito fission/fusion state has a definite impact on hunger. Fission increases hunger while fusion reduces it. This likely has to do with the efficiency of mitochondria increasing with fusion, thus making do with less fuel. To achieve fusion without calories, I recommend 50 mg of sulforaphane, such as the Thorne product Crucera-SGS, while avoiding NAD+ products, which increase fission.

 

Interesting recent observation: I tried Yerba Mate and Guayusa. I know that Yerba Mate is claimed to be an appetite suppressant,  but within 30-60 minutes after taking it (and to a lesser extent Guayusa) I completely lose a sense of satiety no matter how much or what I eat... I take Yerba Mate with some honey, not too much... This happens quickly, goes away within a day if I don't take any more Mate... I tried Matcha too, but did not have a good reaction to it, even though it is claimed to have host of benefits... This effect from Mate is reproducible for me - after a break if I take Mate again I get the same issues with satiety almost instantaneously ...

 

I will try to use red flashlights after taking Mate out of curiosity, obviously the simple solution for me is to avoid Mate or caffeine in general...

Edited by mike20g, 19 February 2021 - 05:23 PM.

[KBAnthis]

3/2/2021 I am starting a protocol similar to the topic idea. I will be doing a snake diet approach only slightly modified. Fast with snake juice for 72 hours and then will do a daylight hours refeed. Most likely I will try to limit it to 8 hours but with 72 hour fasts between days my main goal is to not eat later in the evening or shortly before the sun goes down. I am going to combine this fasting method with tanning daily outside for 20 mins minimum weather permitting since I am located up north in the USA. For the first fast kick-starting this I am trying to go 5-7 days. I will do light resistance band exercises and a 40-60 min walk daily to increase autophagy. I have heard mixed things on this so may take it easy kickstarting this routine and transition into it. 

[burgesssally787]

Recently I started to exercise regularly, I use different applications such as work time and sweat, I also started to eat a little better. but I couldn't even think that fasting and red might be strong enough to cause weight loss. Now I will definitely try it!

[mike20g]

I tried this protocol out of curiosity recently, did not have to use flashlight to curb appetite. After day 3 this diet became much easier to maintain. I was eating more calories than in 1 atkins bar, but still was achieving weight loss per day similar to what Turnbuckle did during his experiment. In my case most of the weight lost was "water weight', which came back very quickly after I stopped this diet. During the diet brain worked worse than usually. Overall this method of losing weight is not for me. I am intrigued about red light though, I will use it going forward coupled with taking Ashwaghanga to see the effect.

[EliotH]

Turnbuckle,

 

Are you still doing this protocol? If so do you find that the weight/fat returns if you stop for a while?

 

There seems to be some evidence that calorie restriction is actually worse in the long run. Joel Greene (The Immunity Code) argues that the body treats losing fat as an injury and so eventually tries to replace it when it gets a chance. He also argues that gut bacteria plays a major role is maintaining a healthy weight.

 

(The book really needs an editor, spell checker and index. It contains a lot of good information but I think it was rushed out the door too quickly.)

[MFRITTMAN]

I am an avid faster and often go on water-only fasts.  I usually don't have any problem with hunger, especially after 2-3 days, with or without red lights.

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle,

 

Are you still doing this protocol? If so do you find that the weight/fat returns if you stop for a while?

 

There seems to be some evidence that calorie restriction is actually worse in the long run. Joel Greene (The Immunity Code) argues that the body treats losing fat as an injury and so eventually tries to replace it when it gets a chance. He also argues that gut bacteria plays a major role is maintaining a healthy weight.

 

(The book really needs an editor, spell checker and index. It contains a lot of good information but I think it was rushed out the door too quickly.)

 

I see the current fat epidemic as having 3 origins--

 

1. The easy availability of food,

2. The constant food propaganda in the media, and

3. The decline of mitochondrial function with age.

 

As I posted above in 110, I've found a better way to raise the functioning of mitochondria, which works more or less permanently, and which for me eliminated 60-80% of the hunger signal. See here for a two week protocol for reversing mitochondrial damage. (The time required will vary depending on the level of damage, but I've included a simple test to tell you when you're done.) This will provide many other benefits, not just suppressing hunger.

[v_squared123]

This didn't work for me. Any reason why? Ive been doing OMAD ( one meal a day, 24 hour fast ) for 3 years now. I want to complete a 5 day water fast for the purported health benefits. I cant get past 3 days of fasting. I feel like sh*t. Low energy, weak, sleepy, moody, hunger pains and a banging headache are symptoms I feel after 2 days of fasting. So this approach seemed perfect for my needs. I bought a red led torch from amazon.ca. It offers two bandwidths, 660 and 850 nm and has a flexible head to allow efficient positioning. Its well built and has decent weight to it. Reviews are quite good for this device.

 

So, when I got hungry after 2 days of fasting, I used the torch and targeted the fat around my waist line and waited 30 seconds. Still hungry. Then, reapplied the led head on another area of my waist with stubborn fat and waited up to 5 mins, still quite hungry. 

 

Am I doing something wrong? Please advise.