25 replies to this topic

[GreenmachineX]

Outside of actual pharmaceuticals, no herb or supplement has the same impact on the way I feel like a powerful (or crappy) Multivitamin. I used Thorne’s 2 per day at 1 cap per day for a year and ended up with extremely tight muscles resulting in shoulder impingement syndrome and angular cheilitis. I switched to Life Extensions 2 Per Day at 1 cap per day and the angular cheilitis went away, but I was hypomanic and had terrible palpitations and lots of anxiety (shoulder became worse), and lost excess hair daily in the shower and my hair/beard gained a ton of grey. At the time during these I had no idea what was causing what.

About 6 months ago, I stopped all supplements and vitamins and had horrible histamine reactions, difficulty breathing, lethargy, brain fog, and an intermittent lump in my throat that felt like my throat was closing. I’ve since been experimenting with different multis and figuring out what’s causing what but nothing so far let’s me feel normal.

I’ve figured out that it all has to do with folate and b12 and the forms. I’ve tested negative for the mthfr mutations but I definitely feel better with the active forms of those vitamins. But, too much of them causes middle of the night insomnia, and not enough causes the other symptoms. And the angular cheilitis is back. I’ve tested just adding extra methylfolate on top of Thorne’s Basic Nutrients III at 2 caps per day, but that resulted in disorientation, brain fog, dizziness upon standing up too quickly and anxiety.


I’m experimenting now with Thorne’s Basic Nutrients III at 3 caps per day instead of 6, as 2 of them a day isn’t enough either (no extra folate as that was horrible). My shoulder impingement is getting significant better with increases of all the vitamins at this new dose and causing all my muscles to relax a bit.

Amidst all of this I can’t quite figure out what’s causing my blood pressure to run quite high for my age with scary spikes. It’s always been borderline high too since I was 18. Recently, with a certain combination of multi and ksm-66 and taurine, I had it at 125/80, but that’s the lowest. Typically it runs 130’s to 140’s over 80-90, depending on time of day and symptoms occurring when taking it. If palpitations start up when taking it, it’ll be high. I really feel like when I figure this vitamin thing out, I’ll have normal blood pressure because it’s been almost normal before.

What do you use? Anyone have any insight on what’s going on with my symptoms? Thanks in advance.

[Boopy!]

wow this is interesting to say the least.   I quit taking multivitamins since I never saw a difference,   to this day,   AND because usually there's  too much of one thing and too little of another....it was just too difficult to fix this with every single one I tried.    Now I'm onto trying to make up for what I lack in diet,   which is a bit cheaper  (not by much probably)  so I hear you --  it is TOUGH figuring out what is doing what.   I'm impressed you could even figure out the methyl deal with B vitamins.   I couldn't have done that.  

 

My only suggestion would be to do as you once did and stop taking the multi you are currently using.   Then slowly add in high quality supplements -- only if you can afford it -- or better yet,   the purest form of foods.   Do insanely healthy eating if you can.   And I don't mean the rich people way of juices and smoothies,   although if you like that then feel free.   I mean like poor people way like me --   water,  fruit,   veggies,   fish.   Eat like my immigrant grandparents.   This is all in addition to bloodwork to figure out what's up with the blood pressure.   Is it genetic though?

[John250]

Outside of actual pharmaceuticals, no herb or supplement has the same impact on the way I feel like a powerful (or crappy) Multivitamin. I used Thorne’s 2 per day at 1 cap per day for a year and ended up with extremely tight muscles resulting in shoulder impingement syndrome and angular cheilitis. I switched to Life Extensions 2 Per Day at 1 cap per day and the angular cheilitis went away, but I was hypomanic and had terrible palpitations and lots of anxiety (shoulder became worse), and lost excess hair daily in the shower and my hair/beard gained a ton of grey. At the time during these I had no idea what was causing what.

About 6 months ago, I stopped all supplements and vitamins and had horrible histamine reactions, difficulty breathing, lethargy, brain fog, and an intermittent lump in my throat that felt like my throat was closing. I’ve since been experimenting with different multis and figuring out what’s causing what but nothing so far let’s me feel normal.

I’ve figured out that it all has to do with folate and b12 and the forms. I’ve tested negative for the mthfr mutations but I definitely feel better with the active forms of those vitamins. But, too much of them causes middle of the night insomnia, and not enough causes the other symptoms. And the angular cheilitis is back. I’ve tested just adding extra methylfolate on top of Thorne’s Basic Nutrients III at 2 caps per day, but that resulted in disorientation, brain fog, dizziness upon standing up too quickly and anxiety.


I’m experimenting now with Thorne’s Basic Nutrients III at 3 caps per day instead of 6, as 2 of them a day isn’t enough either (no extra folate as that was horrible). My shoulder impingement is getting significant better with increases of all the vitamins at this new dose and causing all my muscles to relax a bit.

Amidst all of this I can’t quite figure out what’s causing my blood pressure to run quite high for my age with scary spikes. It’s always been borderline high too since I was 18. Recently, with a certain combination of multi and ksm-66 and taurine, I had it at 125/80, but that’s the lowest. Typically it runs 130’s to 140’s over 80-90, depending on time of day and symptoms occurring when taking it. If palpitations start up when taking it, it’ll be high. I really feel like when I figure this vitamin thing out, I’ll have normal blood pressure because it’s been almost normal before.

What do you use? Anyone have any insight on what’s going on with my symptoms? Thanks in advance.

I would think it’s probably a different factor if you analyze it more but:

“Vitamins and Hypertension

Vitamin K helps to synthesize the proteins needed to help blood clot. Vitamin K does not cause high blood pressure but can interfere with factors that regulate blood pressure due to changes in blood cell clotting. Vitamin E is another vitamin that can affect blood pressure levels. According to the Drug Safety Site, vitamin E can elevate blood pressure to dangerous levels, especially when first taking the supplement. In addition, vitamin E can increase your risk of bleeding and should not be combined with other blood thinners. As always, speak to your physician before taking any over-the-counter supplements, especially if you have high blood pressure.”

https://www.vitamind...s/hypertension/

https://www.gardenwe...-blood-pressure

Edited by John250, 06 July 2018 - 06:56 PM.

[GreenmachineX]

Further developments here:

It turns out it really is all about methylcobalamin and methylfolate and less about the multivitamin itself.

Methylcobalamin brings out the angular cheilitis, insomnia, histamine surges, and huge mood and motivation boosts.

Methylfolate can slow some of that down, but doesn’t quite turn it off completely. I’ve only experimented up to 400mcg at a time which gave a significant downer effect (way too relaxed), but that feeling only lasts a few hours and I wake up at 2am wide eyed, eyes peeled open. Enough methylfolate also brings my blood pressure to healthier levels (120/70 in doctors office), where typically in the doctors office it’s 136/80 on average.

What’s even worse is if I take nothing. Elevated anxiety. Histamine issues. Delayed wound healing as well, and my nails stop growing. Almost like I’m deficient in folate, and methylcobalamin makes that deficiency worse.

I had some labs drawn to look for nutrient deficiencies but I won’t get those results for a few weeks. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Edited by GreenmachineX, 15 September 2018 - 01:28 AM.

[pamojja]

Personally I do fine with a partial dose of LEFs Two-per-day, and by adding missing nutrients individually.

 

Almost like I’m deficient in folate, and methylcobalamin makes that deficiency worse.

 

Though we are all of course completely different. The most extreme case I found for example in this thread:

 

https://forums.phoen...ciencies.41605/

 

Might well be something similar is going on in your case.
 

[GreenmachineX]

Yeah, that’s where I got the idea from, but I was up to 800mcg methylfolate with only 125mcg methylcobalamin and was still having side effects. I have trouble with the whole 15mg methylfolate and 10mg methylcobalamin, I just don’t believe I could possibly need that. I’m not really ill.

What do you add to LEF’s multi? That one gives me the worst pounding heart in the middle of the night and without extra methylfolate my hair falls out! If it’s inducing refeeding syndrome, I haven’t been able to figure out what nutrient I’m missing or I need insane amounts of methylfolate with it. I’m also weary of going super high with methylfolate because of the whole methyl/folate trap thing.

[pamojja]

I’m not really ill.

 

What do you add to LEF’s multi? That one gives me the worst pounding heart in the middle of the night and without extra methylfolate my hair falls out!

 

Contrary to you am very ill (PAD II, COPD I, T2D, ME/CFS) and mega-doses of many nutrients have been in most cases very beneficial to me. Therefore what helped me, might would have not that good effects to you. Wrote the whole story down here.

 

Personally I try to chase serum homocysteine down with B9, B12 and B6 (and TMG, choline..), bud haven't been able to bring it down in to an optimal range consistently with now about 2.2 mg methylfolate, same of B12, and 200 mg of B6. Though recently dream-recall is back, but assign that more to my better magnesium status since receiving Mg-sulfate IVs since Nov. last year. Otherwise the B vitamins at either low or high doses never gave me bad side-effects (with the exception of choline, where at times I get chaw-tension above certain thresholds).

 

In good health (though I do doubt that a bid with falling out hair..) I would just add nutrients which are not included in a multi and go from there, as described here.
 

Edited by pamojja, 15 September 2018 - 01:22 PM.

[GreenmachineX]

Thanks for that. Im back to using Now Foods Adam multi right now and my angular cheilitis is healing, nails are growing fast, and no water retention and it’s only been 2 days on it. It uses folic acid and cyanocobalamin (tiny amount of methylcobalamin in it too) and as a result I get mild brain fog/sluggishness for the first 5 hours awaking, so obviously that’s not right either (this happens with nothing as well). But there’s also a chance that because my reverse t3 was above range that I need a little t3 with my Synthroid and the b vitamins were simply a bandaid. My doctor is starting me on 5mcg to begin. We’ll see.

Edited by GreenmachineX, 15 September 2018 - 01:50 PM.

[GreenmachineX]

Thanks for that. Im back to using Now Foods Adam multi right now and my angular cheilitis is healing, nails are growing fast, and no water retention and it’s only been 2 days on it. It uses folic acid and cyanocobalamin (tiny amount of methylcobalamin in it too) and as a result I get mild brain fog/sluggishness for the first 5 hours awaking, so obviously that’s not right either (this happens with nothing as well). But there’s also a chance that because my reverse t3 was above range that I need a little t3 with my Synthroid and the b vitamins were simply a bandaid. My doctor is starting me on 5mcg to begin. We’ll see.

I was wrong. The folate deficiency symptoms started again today. Angular cheilitis worsened, water retention, and “air hunger” as I like to call it. 100mcg methylfolate and I’ve been urinating like crazy and the water retention is gone and other symptoms greatly improved. But, like before, the methylfolate made me way too relaxed to be productive or social. I just wanted to lay down and watch tv. I don’t get it.

[pamojja]

But, like before, the methylfolate made me way too relaxed to be productive or social. I just wanted to lay down and watch tv. I don’t get it.

 

Otherwise, do you get enough hours of sleep each night?

[GreenmachineX]

Otherwise, do you get enough hours of sleep each night?

I always give myself the opportunity to sleep at least 7 hours but terminal insomnia wakes me up at 2am often.

Otherwise, do you get enough hours of sleep each night?

I always give myself the opportunity to sleep at least 7 hours but terminal insomnia wakes me up at 2am often.

[pamojja]

 

But, like before, the methylfolate made me way too relaxed to be productive or social. I just wanted to lay down and watch tv. I don’t get it.

 

Otherwise, do you get enough hours of sleep each night?

 

I always give myself the opportunity to sleep at least 7 hours but terminal insomnia wakes me up at 2am often.

 
Maybe try taking a little bid later in the day when it is perfect to just relax?
 
Or something that helps you sleep through? Heard passionflower or hops could do that?

Edited by pamojja, 17 September 2018 - 09:30 AM.

[GreenmachineX]

Maybe try taking a little bid later in the day when it is perfect to just relax?

Or something that helps you sleep through? Heard passionflower or hops could do that?

What is bid?

I’ve tried numerous natural things for sleep and nothing works when it’s b12 induced except phenibut but that’s not necessarily natural either. What eventually puts me back to sleep is 3g taurine with 125mg sensoril. Even 2-3mg melatonin in the middle of the night doesn’t work.

[pamojja]

What is bid?

I’ve tried numerous natural things for sleep and nothing works when it’s b12 induced except phenibut but that’s not necessarily natural either. What eventually puts me back to sleep is 3g taurine with 125mg sensoril. Even 2-3mg melatonin in the middle of the night doesn’t work.

 

Great you already found something to put you back to sleep. The goal would be to sleep through, and particularly for that the hinted at herbs.

 

100mcg methylfolate and I’ve been urinating like crazy and the water retention is gone and other symptoms greatly improved. But, like before, the methylfolate made me way too relaxed to be productive or social. I just wanted to lay down and watch tv. I don’t get it.

 

A little bid would be a fraction of the 100 mcg methylfolate.

[Skyguy2005]

I found that LEF two per day was bad for me because I tended to be low on iron, and drinking lots of green tea and taking non-iron minerals (you know, zinc, copper, manganese) was making that worse. After blood test showed me to be a bit low on iron it all made sense.

 

As a man I assumed low iron was women's problem, but how wrong I was! You would never know... without a blood test. Maybe you are low on iron too, maybe not, I don't know.

Edited by Skyguy2005, 18 September 2018 - 06:34 PM.

[GreenmachineX]

I found that LEF two per day was bad for me because I tended to be low on iron, and drinking lots of green tea and taking non-iron minerals (you know, zinc, copper, manganese) was making that worse. After blood test showed me to be a bit low on iron it all made sense.

As a man I assumed low iron was women's problem, but how wrong I was! You would never know... without a blood test. Maybe you are low on iron too, maybe not, I don't know.

My ferritin is currently 56, so borderline. Could be a lot worse though.

[Skyguy2005]

My ferritin is currently 56, so borderline. Could be a lot worse though.

 

Mine was 45. I felt so much better after increasing it. According to many 45 is fine, but not for me.

Edited by Skyguy2005, 19 September 2018 - 02:41 PM.

[GreenmachineX]

What were your symptoms?

[John250]

Mine was 45. I felt so much better after increasing it. According to many 45 is fine, but not for me.

How did you increase and how long did it take?

Edited by John250, 19 September 2018 - 11:42 PM.

[GreenmachineX]

Great you already found something to put you back to sleep. The goal would be to sleep through, and particularly for that the hinted at herbs.


A little bid would be a fraction of the 100 mcg methylfolate.

I was wrong about all this, or I’ve adapted. The taurine, melatonin, sensoril and methylfolate trick didn’t work at all last night so I’ve been up since 2am.

Edited by GreenmachineX, 20 September 2018 - 10:32 AM.

[pamojja]

I was wrong about all this, or I’ve adapted. The taurine, melatonin, sensoril and methylfolate trick didn’t work at all last night so I’ve been up since 2am.

 

So you added a bid of methylfolate later at night and it had the opposite effect last night?

 

Personally I wouldn't give a one-off experience too much significance, but only if something taken at the same time of the day give consistent similar results. Which might change over time, but usually not that fast.

 

But specially for good sleep - you not only have to single out supplements and their combination - but all lifestyle factors (diet, light-exposure, other stimulations..).
 

[GreenmachineX]

So you added a bid of methylfolate later at night and it had the opposite effect last night?

Personally I wouldn't give a one-off experience too much significance, but only if something taken at the same time of the day give consistent similar results. Which might change over time, but usually not that fast.

But specially for good sleep - you not only have to single out supplements and their combination - but all lifestyle factors (diet, light-exposure, other stimulations..).

Tried 100mcg methylfolate at about 3am, then another hundred at 4am. Most factors are ironed out but I think I just can’t handle too much methylcobalamin right now, or I need to build up from a smaller amount.

Edited by GreenmachineX, 20 September 2018 - 11:46 AM.

[pamojja]

Great you already found something to put you back to sleep. The goal would be to sleep through, and particularly for that the hinted at herbs.

 

 

A little bid would be a fraction of the 100 mcg methylfolate.

 

Tried 100mcg methylfolate at about 3am, then another hundred at 4am. Most factors are ironed out but I think I just can’t handle too much methylcobalamin right now, or I need to build up from a smaller amount.

 

Exactly, that's what I meant with a fraction of 100 mcg, something like 25 or 50 mcg first only.

[GreenmachineX]

Still trying to figure this all out. I got my results from the Spectracell nutrient test, and only b12 and vitamin A we’re borderline. Everything else was good. This was taken a week after ceasing all supplements but from what the Spectracell info said, it takes 4-6 months to see a difference in white blood cell nutrient status.

I’m doing fairly well now, with 25-50mcg supplemental b12 in my Seeking Health powder multivitamin. I just have to take 1.5mg melatonin, 200mg theanine, 125mcg sensoril, 2 grams taurine, and 150mg magnesium before bed and again 4 hours later. But, still fighting angular cheilitis, comes and goes and other deficiency symptoms of something.

[baccheion]

Still trying to figure this all out. I got my results from the Spectracell nutrient test, and only b12 and vitamin A we’re borderline. Everything else was good. This was taken a week after ceasing all supplements but from what the Spectracell info said, it takes 4-6 months to see a difference in white blood cell nutrient status.

I’m doing fairly well now, with 25-50mcg supplemental b12 in my Seeking Health powder multivitamin. I just have to take 1.5mg melatonin, 200mg theanine, 125mcg sensoril, 2 grams taurine, and 150mg magnesium before bed and again 4 hours later. But, still fighting angular cheilitis, comes and goes and other deficiency symptoms of something.

Was magnesium also in range (what was the result + range)? I was going to ask if you were taking enough magnesium.

[GreenmachineX]

Yes, magnesium was great. I’ve just about figured all this out. Worked up slowly with b12, now at 150mcg and use 600mcg folate and that’s working well. The only issue left is mild chest flutters twice a day. But my nails are growing again, no bloat, good energy, sleeping great and blood pressure is at 121/76 this morning.