72 replies to this topic

[Phoebus]

Why would liposomal not be an option, assuming one can get it or make it?

 

 

because that still goes through the liver and will be broken down into simple N

 

liposomal just means its fat soluble instead of water soluble, doesn't mean it bypasses the liver 

[able]

I’ve been using a variation of Phoebus' transdermal NMN approach for a week now.

 

It does seems effective at delivering NMN and particularly effective at targeting specific areas.

 

I’ve been applying 1 gram, once a day, on the half of my body that I exercise that day (upper body, or legs).

 

 

 

My method :

 

Mix the DMSO 70/30 with distilled water.  

Stir in NMN powder at a ratio of 1 gram for 10 ml of DMSO/water

Pour the mixture into one of  these  applicators, and roll on the target area until empty

Wait a few minutes for the liquid to completely absorb, then wipe off any residue if needed.

 

Quite easy to mix a weeks worth.  Application is a few minutes.  A bit itchy, but not bad.

 

Results:

 

The DMSO relieves any soreness or joint pain immediately.  In addition to the soothing, I do get a slight euphoric, energized feeling, but that could just be due to the relief - idk.

 

After the immediate relief from the dams, any joint pain or soreness does not come back.

 

I have had great results from using sublingual nmn - all the everyday aches and pains from being almost 60 with a lifetime of  sports injuries are gone.  

 

The transdermal NMN application cures that last bit of knee pain I still get after a hard run.

 

The only downside for me is, a little trouble to mix/apply, and a bit. of discomfortable itching.

 

 I think it is very powerful for local area targeting and will continue on days I run hard.  

 

I would highly recommend it for those experiencing significant pain, or just want to feel better faster.  

 

It may be better as a kind of time released delivery method, vs sublingual, but I don't go to an office anymore, so don't mind taking the tablets or powders throughout the day.

 

Personally, I am very happy with the sublingual NMN and find it less messy than the transdermal method, so will mostly stick to that except when I need more localized pain relief.

[Phoebus]

 

 

 

The DMSO relieves any soreness or joint pain immediately.  In addition to the soothing, I do get a slight euphoric, energized feeling, but that could just be due to the relief - idk.

 

After the immediate relief from the dams, any joint pain or soreness does not come back.

 

I have had great results from using sublingual nmn - all the everyday aches and pains from being almost 60 with a lifetime of  sports injuries are gone.  

 

The transdermal NMN application cures that last bit of knee pain I still get after a hard run.

 

The only downside for me is, a little trouble to mix/apply, and a bit. of discomfortable itching.

 

 I think it is very powerful for local area targeting and will continue on days I run hard.  

 

I would highly recommend it for those experiencing significant pain, or just want to feel better faster.  

 

It may be better as a kind of time released delivery method, vs sublingual, but I don't go to an office anymore, so don't mind taking the tablets or powders throughout the day.

 

Personally, I am very happy with the sublingual NMN and find it less messy than the transdermal method, so will mostly stick to that except when I need more localized pain relief.

 

 

hey thats great, glad to see someone else actually tried it!

 

yes, I get that euphoric, energized feeling also, I figure its a sign its working

 

and also yes, this method is great for targeting specific problem areas, I think it would excellent way to help recover from injury or - as you said - from work out 

Edited by Phoebus, 25 July 2018 - 09:49 PM.

[hav]

This report is encouraging.  Other folks I've talked to were not able to get NMN to dissolve in dmso. Curious what amount per ml folks here are able to dissolve into dmso.

 

Howard

[Phoebus]

This report is encouraging.  Other folks I've talked to were not able to get NMN to dissolve in dmso. Curious what amount per ml folks here are able to dissolve into dmso.

 

Howard

 

dont put the NMN in the dmso directly. Best way is to put the NMN in the water, stir and let it dissolve, then add the DMSO 

 

I use roughly 70/30 water/dmso ratio, sometimes less. Someone else may like a different ratio. 

[able]

dont put the NMN in the dmso directly. Best way is to put the NMN in the water, stir and let it dissolve, then add the DMSO 

 

I use roughly 70/30 water/dmso ratio, sometimes less. Someone else may like a different ratio. 

 

 

Same here.  Adding NMN to water, and then DMSO, there is no problem getting as much as you need to dissolve in a small quantity of liquid.

 

I am using 1 gram in 10 ml of 70% DMSO/water.  

 

But I tested 1.5 and even 2 grams of NMN in that same 10 ml.

 

2 grams was a bit difficult.

 

Any less water and it wont take 2 grams.  Too much water, and you are left with white powder all over the body when it dries.

 

But 1 gram in 10 ml is very easy to mix, and it will roll on and absorb in a few minutes, over half the body.

[HaplogroupW]

because that still goes through the liver and will be broken down into simple N

 

liposomal just means its fat soluble instead of water soluble, doesn't mean it bypasses the liver 

 

I don't think so. Anything water soluble aborbed in the GI goes via the portal vein into the liver where the liver gets to metabolize it.

 

The point of a liposomal formulation is to encapsulate something otherwise water-soluble in lipids such that, instead of going via portal vein to liver, it goes into chylomicrons into the lymph system. Lipases then breakdown the chylomicrons and release into blood or cells.

 

I think liposomal formulation would be similar to sublingual delivery, except you could get a lot more of it.

[hav]

I don't think so. Anything water soluble aborbed in the GI goes via the portal vein into the liver where the liver gets to metabolize it.

 

The point of a liposomal formulation is to encapsulate something otherwise water-soluble in lipids such that, instead of going via portal vein to liver, it goes into chylomicrons into the lymph system. Lipases then breakdown the chylomicrons and release into blood or cells.

 

I think liposomal formulation would be similar to sublingual delivery, except you could get a lot more of it.

That's all true except that liposomes and other complexes that reverse water/oil solubility are also used with lipid solubles to increase their water solubility and enhance amounts delivered to the liver with a view towards overwhelming its ability to destroy it all.  It's also favored because, rightly or wrongly, most researchers gauge bio-availability with blood tests. For simple water solubles that happen to be relatively inexpensive, taking more is the easy way to accomplish the same thing.

Btw, not all oils go lymphatic.  Only longer chain ones.  Medium-chain fats like those found in MCT or Neobee go Portal.  Technically only longer chain fatty acids (c12 and higher) favor the lymphatic route and lipophilic molecules follow the oils they hook up with, which tend to be longer chain fats if you have a typical Western diet and leave it to chance in your GI tract.
 

Howard

[hav]

dont put the NMN in the dmso directly. Best way is to put the NMN in the water, stir and let it dissolve, then add the DMSO 

 

I use roughly 70/30 water/dmso ratio, sometimes less. Someone else may like a different ratio. 

 

Not sure how the dmso would participate in NMN absorption without dmso solubility.  Generally what happens with transdermal application is that the dmso draws water to the surface of the skin from the skin and capillaries while traveling in the opposite direction to replace all the water molecules it sucks out, carrying along molecules that are both dmso and water soluble in the process. Molecules that don't meet both requirements are usually left behind.  I wonder if what's happening is that the NMN is left behind at first, along with the water on the surface of the skin, but is drawn in after the dmso is carried away and the skin tries to restore its hydration.  If so, you might get the same effect applying them separately, one after the other.
 

Howard

[Phoebus]

That's all true except that liposomes and other complexes that reverse water/oil solubility are also used with lipid solubles to increase their water solubility and enhance amounts delivered to the liver with a view towards overwhelming its ability to destroy it all.  It's also favored because, rightly or wrongly, most researchers gauge bio-availability with blood tests. For simple water solubles that happen to be relatively inexpensive, taking more is the easy way to accomplish the same thing.

 

 

interesting. so in theory you could take mega doses of NR/NMN with the notion that it would overwhelm the liver's  ability to destroy (ie metabolize) it all?

[hav]

interesting. so in theory you could take mega doses of NR/NMN with the notion that it would overwhelm the liver's  ability to destroy (ie metabolize) it all?

 

The only downside being that it's not exactly inexpensive.

 

Howard

[able]

interesting. so in theory you could take mega doses of NR/NMN with the notion that it would overwhelm the liver's  ability to destroy (ie metabolize) it all?

 

I've wondered about that also.  

 

The Liu study showed that  with a smaller dose of 50 Mg/Kg bodyweight, all NR and NMN get metabolized to NAM in GI tract and liver.

 

Yet NR has a different effect than simply consuming NAM.  

 

The most recent study with mice given 400 mg/kg of NR shows pretty clearly that NAM is not the same as NR in this model of heart disease:

 

"We demonstrate that oral supplementation with NR, a vitamin B3 form and NAD+ precursor, efficiently prevented development and progression of LMNA cardiomyopathy in mice"

 

"Thus, our data showed that treating Lmna  mice with NAM is not efficient to restore the cardiac NAD+ content"

 

 

 

These mice had a genetic defect that caused low Nampt levels, and NAD+ content.  NR rescued the deficit and resulted in longer lifespan.  NAM did not, likely because they had low Nampt and couldn't utilize NAM properly in the heart.

 

So, is the huge dose possibly "overwhelming" the livers capacity, and some NR makes it to the bloodstream and on to the heart?

Edited by able, 31 July 2018 - 06:51 PM.

[able]

Now that I think about it, that was the rational Alivebynature had with their NMN Plus product.  

 

They included the less expensive precursors like NA, NAM, and tryptophan with the NMN on the theory that would allow more NMN to escape the liver and make it to bloodstream.  

 

Kinda makes sense.  But they quit selling that product.

 

Edited by able, 31 July 2018 - 06:57 PM.

[Phoebus]

Now that I think about it, that was the rational Alivebynature had with their NMN Plus product.  

 

They included the less expensive precursors like NA, NAM, and tryptophan with the NMN on the theory that would allow more NMN to escape the liver and make it to bloodstream.  

 

Kinda makes sense.  But they quit selling that product.

 

 

interesting 

 

so one possibility would be to pre load the liver with NAM, NA, and tryptophan, then take NR/NMN while hte liver is busy with that with the notion that much of it will escape the degradation process. 

 

maybe...? 

[Phoebus]

 

 

The most recent study with mice given 400 mg/kg of NR shows pretty clearly that NAM is not the same as NR in this model of heart disease:

 

 

 

what would that be equivalent for say a 150 lb person? My calculations say its an insane amount, but maybe I am wrong? 

[able]

what would that be equivalent for say a 150 lb person? My calculations say its an insane amount, but maybe I am wrong? 

 

 

It is a huge amount.  But it doesn't scale up from mice to humans simply based on weight.  There are a few different methods, based on volume, or metabolic rates.  

 

I forget the link to the FDA guidelines.  

 

If I recall correct,  100 mg/kg day in mice is something like 560 mg a day for a 70kg human.

[able]

interesting 

 

so one possibility would be to pre load the liver with NAM, NA, and tryptophan, then take NR/NMN while hte liver is busy with that with the notion that much of it will escape the degradation process. 

 

maybe...? 

 

That is a theory.

 

Maybe you could take NAM, NA, Tryptophan capsule, followed by a sublingual NMN.  

 

So you get some NMN direct to bloodstream immediately, and you might minimize the amount that gets soaked up in the liver?

 

Kinda wild speculation.

[TMNMK]

Able, Phoebus, neither of you have evidence of NMN that remains on the skin post application? It appears to me that Howard may be correct. Upon skin drying post application I find a white residue that tastes like NMN and is water soluble.

[able]

Able, Phoebus, neither of you have evidence of NMN that remains on the skin post application? It appears to me that Howard may be correct. Upon skin drying post application I find a white residue that tastes like NMN and is water soluble.

 

I had a lot of white residue after drying when I used a higher % of water.  

 

Using less water/more DMSO resulted in very little noticeable white residue.  I sometimes would wipe more DMSO/water (no nmn) over the area to ensure better absorption.  

 

Tinkering with the quantity of NMN in solution, and % of water/dmso can have a huge impact on absorption.  Some might remain on the skin, but my thought is, more effective than most of it being turned to NAM in the stomach.

 

Also seems extremely effective  for localized delivery.  I don't happen to need it for sore knees or any other joint pain now, but if it ever recurs, for sure I will use transdermal  NMN.

Edited by able, 02 August 2018 - 05:22 PM.

[TMNMK]

Ok I'll play around with it, thanks Able. Another interesting note is that NR appears to be soluble in DMSO. However, microcrystalline cellulose is soluble in a DMSO/H2O solution - which was a surprise to me. So, for folks reading this, DO NOT empty your capsules of TRU NIAGEN IN DMSO/H2O and then apply it to your skin! You would have to separate the NR extremely well 100% perfectly from the excipient in order to hope that this would not eventually kill you.

Edited by TMNMK, 02 August 2018 - 07:21 PM.

[stefan_001]

Ok I'll play around with it, thanks Able. Another interesting note is that NR appears to be soluble in DMSO. However, microcrystalline cellulose is soluble in a DMSO/H2O solution - which was a surprise to me. So, for folks reading this, DO NOT empty your capsules of TRU NIAGEN IN DMSO/H2O and then apply it to your skin! You would have to separate the NR extremely well 100% perfectly from the excipient in order to hope that this would not eventually kill you.

 

Thanks for that advice. I have on occasion mixed the filtered NR into a normal skin cream. Would you see the same risk there or is this a surprise property of DMSO?
 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Here is an abstract for a study reporting low-dose toxicity (induction of retinal apoptosis) of intravitreally administered DMSO in rats.

 

Dosing directly to the vitreous humor isn't skin application, but who knows...

[TMNMK]

Thanks for that advice. I have on occasion mixed the filtered NR into a normal skin cream. Would you see the same risk there or is this a surprise property of DMSO?
 

 

I don't think mixing into a cream would be a problem. Regarding the surprise property I'm not sure, I thought the solution should be neutral which would prevent MCC from dissolution. Perhaps it is a relationship with the salt of NR being also present. At first it did not seem to dissolve, but over some time (perhaps 10 minutes) with swirling it did.

[Phoebus]

Able, Phoebus, neither of you have evidence of NMN that remains on the skin post application? It appears to me that Howard may be correct. Upon skin drying post application I find a white residue that tastes like NMN and is water soluble.

 

I have had that problem with a face serum i made with NMN that had no dmso in it 

 

with my transdermal serum with dmso I have never had that problem 

 

so yeah, as mentioned, increase dmso content and that should take care of it 

[TMNMK]

Not sure yet what to derive from this but I'll leave it here for others that find it interesting: https://pdfs.semanti...9d9203b5d0b.pdf

[TMNMK]

Bust on this one, my wife absolutely will not have it (according to her, it smells worse than most isonitriles I've messed with). I had always been careful to never allow DMSO on my skin before this, unfortunately it cannot get on my skin again or I risk divorce. If you're doing life like Thoreau, go for it.

Edited by TMNMK, 04 August 2018 - 04:38 PM.

[Boopy!]

why?   I mean why does she hate it?

[Oakman]

That is a theory.

 

Maybe you could take NAM, NA, Tryptophan capsule, followed by a sublingual NMN.  

 

So you get some NMN direct to bloodstream immediately, and you might minimize the amount that gets soaked up in the liver?

 

Kinda wild speculation.

 

 

interesting 

 

so one possibility would be to pre load the liver with NAM, NA, and tryptophan, then take NR/NMN while hte liver is busy with that with the notion that much of it will escape the degradation process. 

 

maybe...? 

 

 

Now that I think about it, that was the rational Alivebynature had with their NMN Plus product.  

 

They included the less expensive precursors like NA, NAM, and tryptophan with the NMN on the theory that would allow more NMN to escape the liver and make it to bloodstream.  

 

Kinda makes sense.  But they quit selling that product.

 

I took ABN's original rationale for NMN Plus to heart, it makes perfect sense. So I created my own version and also included some STACs. I take one capsule (half indicated dose shown, two didn't seem to add anything) in the morning, along with the isoQuercetin and Fistein. Then I start the powder/sublingual NMN (~750-1000mg/day) in divided doses. It seems to be providing exceptional extra energy for long duration aerobic exercise I do in the morning.

Attached Files

•  NAD Plus Supp.jpg   92.19KB   1 downloads

[Phoebus]

Bust on this one, my wife absolutely will not have it (according to her, it smells worse than most isonitriles I've messed with). I had always been careful to never allow DMSO on my skin before this, unfortunately it cannot get on my skin again or I risk divorce. If you're doing life like Thoreau, go for it.

 

If your dmso stinks its NOT pharma grade, flat out 

 

it stinks because they did not fully filter out the impurities so it smells like rotten eggs at some point. Many dmso sellers just lie about it being pharma grade when it is not. 

 

I have a bottle of true pharma grade dmso that has been opened for a couple months, has NO scent whatsoever. 

Edited by Phoebus, 05 August 2018 - 12:08 AM.

[Phoebus]

I took ABN's original rationale for NMN Plus to heart, it makes perfect sense. So I created my own version and also included some STACs. I take one capsule (half indicated dose shown, two didn't seem to add anything) in the morning, along with the isoQuercetin and Fistein. Then I start the powder/sublingual NMN (~750-1000mg/day) in divided doses. It seems to be providing exceptional extra energy for long duration aerobic exercise I do in the morning.

 

 

what is your rationale for adding isoQuercetin and Fistein. to the mix? also, that graphic describes your own personal stack? 

Edited by Phoebus, 05 August 2018 - 12:13 AM.