7 replies to this topic

[jack black]

Lately I have a family situation that rapidly increased my stress and anxiety and needed additional measures to control emotions. Things that helped were low dose SSRI (i'm afraid to go full dose of that shit) and 5HTP+green tea. In the spirit of rotation, I took one capsule of rhodiola extract from Swanson vitamins (their stuff is legit) today. It's supposed to be adaptogen, anti-stress, anti-anxiety, etc via serotininergic (from examine.com). As soon as I took it after morning coffee on empty stomach, i felt increasing stimulation and anger. By the time i started work, i was angry like hell with trembling hands and almost ready to explode. 

 

Fortunately, I had 1/4 pill of Paxil (5mg total) on me, took it and anger slowly went away. Got a headache instead. 

 

Based on that experience rhodiola is anti-serotonine rather than pro-serotonine like the "studies" claim. The only positive thing is I did notice an uptick in motivation at work, probably MAOi action.

 

Weird thing is I took it before once or twice, noticed mild stimulation, but no anger then, but was generally relaxed back then.

[pamojja]

 

Lately I have a family situation that rapidly increased my stress and anxiety and needed additional measures to control emotions. Things that helped were low dose SSRI (i'm afraid to go full dose of that shit) and 5HTP+green tea. In the spirit of rotation, I took one capsule of rhodiola extract from Swanson vitamins (their stuff is legit) today.

 

Please don't take it personally, but I'm becoming more and more alienated by the attitude of many here at longecity. Were the up and downs, sorrows and joys of everyday living aren't foremost a firsthand experience of being well and alive, but something pathologically to be drugged down.

 

 

Got a headache instead. 

 

Based on that experience rhodiola is anti-serotonine rather than pro-serotonine like the "studies" claim.

 

And essential emotionality gets rationalized away in some metabolic pathways. It's a really frightening scenario, for someone wanting to be as much alive and grow, with all human existence brings along. Till the last breath.

 

With anger often just deep breathing would suffice to allow it flow fully and run its course into nought. It got so little to do with rhodiola, but a hostile attitude to everyday's emotions.

 

Weird thing is I took it before once or twice, noticed mild stimulation, but no anger then, but was generally relaxed back then.

 

What a none-relaxed attitude can perpetuate. No in most cases gentle herbal would be able to.

[jack black]

shrug, this was a pharmacologic and not philosophic question.

 

besides, your advice was maybe well intentioned, but you were not in my shoes and have no idea how strong and inappropriate the reaction was. i was almost ready to punch my boss, already breathing hard. 

 

i'm also alienated here, but for different reasons.

[CWF1986]

I'm not going to go into poorly studied theoretical MOAs of herbals (at least compared to established pharmaceuticals) in this post, but rhodiola is known to be activating for many people.  Taking it when your already stressed out may have just amplified that anxiety for you as an individual.  I haven't looked at Swanson brand, but I know the rosavin to salidroside ratio has an impact on whether or not rhodiola will be more activating or calming.  

 

I like examine.com too, but I also make sure I read about herbals from herbalist and read about experiences from them too since they're often broad spectrum in effects and generally don't have a ton of scientific data.  Also for example, just because a study points out that one of these herbals has MAOI property doesn't necessarily mean that the effect is therapeutically significant and there may very well be other individual actions or combined actions that are actually causing its effects that may or may not be known MOAs.  

 

I take a maintenance dose of ksm66 ashwagandha to augment my 1 antidepressant/antianxiety medication and if I'm really starting to get antsy and/or edgy I'll start taking a higher dose until I'm back into baseline.  Ashwagandha is typically calming.  I bet it might help more for you.  

 

If it makes you sleepy then just try taking it at night.  My understanding is that the Sensoril ash is often better for sleep and anxiety.  I've never tried it so I can't speak from experience.

[pamojja]

besides, your advice was maybe well intentioned, but you were not in my shoes and have no idea how strong and inappropriate the reaction was. i was almost ready to punch my boss, already breathing hard. 

 

i'm also alienated here, but for different reasons.

 

Thanks for not taking my observation too personally, since it wasn't meant. It's true that I were never in your shoes. However, by sharing how it is in mine, we might become aware of different slightly possible perspectives. And it certainly not that I don't want to regularly punch my boss, it's just that I'm aware what multi-factored process that proceeds to this, were I can't naively blame all the vitamin C for it. And you are not really either:

 

 

Lately I have a family situation that rapidly increased my stress and anxiety and needed additional measures to control emotions.

 

In my case it's the ramifications of long term chronic illness which causes too much stress and dissatisfaction. And my inability at the moment to do anything more about than I already do against. Controlling emotions would only perpetuate additional stress and is like shooting the messenger. It never worked in human history.

 

 

shrug, this was a pharmacologic and not philosophic question.

 

For me it's neither, but a pragmatic one.

[jack black]

I take a maintenance dose of ksm66 ashwagandha to augment my 1 antidepressant/antianxiety medication and if I'm really starting to get antsy and/or edgy I'll start taking a higher dose until I'm back into baseline.  Ashwagandha is typically calming.  I bet it might help more for you.  

 

If it makes you sleepy then just try taking it at night.  My understanding is that the Sensoril ash is often better for sleep and anxiety.  I've never tried it so I can't speak from experience.

 

I have been taking one dose ashwagandha extract a day in AM for a long time. Very subtle results, maybe I take too little. Same with Valerian root. What are you taking for antidepressant/antianxiety? I need that long term, and the only thing that works well (even in very small doses) is SSRI or similar but i'm afraid of the "tardive dysphoria" thing.
 

[jack black]

Update: the anxiety was slowly rising this AM from energized to trembling hands and difficulty thinking straight. I took 40mg propranolol SR and it took edge from the anxiety but did not pacify me like SSRI and I had motivation to function effectively at work most of the time, even though it was a busy Friday (they are the worst). 

Maybe daily propranolol is the solution? So far, I took it PRN before performance/social events.

[CWF1986]

I have been taking one dose ashwagandha extract a day in AM for a long time. Very subtle results, maybe I take too little. Same with Valerian root. What are you taking for antidepressant/antianxiety? I need that long term, and the only thing that works well (even in very small doses) is SSRI or similar but i'm afraid of the "tardive dysphoria" thing.
 

 

Starting with ash dosing, I find that the effects are very much dose dependent and the reason I don't take a higher dose than I do is because it'll make me chill to the point I don't care about getting anything done and it'll make getting out of bed in the morning even harder than it is already for me.  

 

The antidepressant I take is the tricyclic nortriptyline.  It's a second generation TCA that was initially put into the market about 50 years ago so it's not going to have the sides of the older ones like amitryptiline or imipramine which are known to be rough.  As far as sides and toxicity go, it's comparable to older SSRIs like luvoxetine or paroxetine and a good case could be made for it being more effective in severe depression. 

 

What I like about it compared to escitalopram is that it doesn't cause emotional numbing, no sexual sides, and doesn't suck away the drive to do anything.  In fact, for me it actually helps improve motivation just a little bit.  It helps almost completely with depression but I'd say that by itself it probably relieves 60ish percent of excessive anxiety.  Hence why I take ash, 5mg lithium orotate (microdose), and carry aniracetam with me so I have something to take on the fly if anxiety gets real bad.  I don't take the ani regularly because it snuffs motivation in combination with the other things I take.  I take these supps instead of the escitalopram with nortriptyline because the sides are so much more manageable.  

 

However, I do have to deal with orthostatic hypotension and an elevated pulse rate.  But I'd much rather deal with those.  The sides during titration are very rough compared to escitalopram but for me they were more than worth it to put up with.  Sides during titration that went away for me personally include lights looking blurry at night, insatiable appetite, daytime sedation, mild constipation, and I was less resilient against the hot humid Houston days in the summer regarding how long/much work I could do before succumbing to heat exhaustion.