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Alternative methods to extend telomeres

telomeres nad nampt ampk resveratrol allicin methylene blue nmn sirtuins statin

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#481 naxleo

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 07:20 AM

I have not tried SAM-e. 

Some people do find it a helpful supplement. It would be interesting to find out its effects on epigenetic age as measured by methylation changes.

The deleterious changes I have highlighted with GDF11 and Oxytocin Receptor downregulation involve increased methylation.

Therefore I would recommend supplements that reduce methylation rather than add to it. 

 

Thanks.

 

 

Again on the role of SAM-e on methylation changes:

 

SAM-e is part of Turnbuckle's epigenetic age reversal protocol. If I understand it correctly, SAM-e is used to favor stem cell proliferation, not differentiation.

 

Which is the rationale for that?



#482 QuestforLife

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Posted 26 April 2021 - 10:58 AM

 

SAM-e is part of Turnbuckle's epigenetic age reversal protocol. If I understand it correctly, SAM-e is used to favor stem cell proliferation, not differentiation.

 

Which is the rationale for that?

 

You'd have to ask him.


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#483 Castiel

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Posted 27 April 2021 - 03:51 PM

Report on ascorbyl palmitate experiment.

 

It seemed promising as some research had postulated it as potential life extending compound, and it also inhibited hyaluronidase increasing hyaluronic acid.

 

Tried it for a few days, noticed notable worsening of skin quality after a few days on it, after suspending even for a day skin quality seemed to improve notably.     Not sure if it was this or something else, but the only change I did I think was add it and drop it.    We've all heard of membrane pacemaker, membrane peroxidation rate is extremely important, membrane oxidation leads to a strong cascade of subsequent free radical production, iirc.   Longer lived animals have more oxidation resistant membranes especially if they are longer lived than expected for their metabolic rate(oxidation theory, or free radical theory exceptions, long lived high metabolism species are explainable by differences in membrane peroxidation index between species).    I suspect that despite its promise, being a lipid soluble substance, although most is supposedly degraded into regular ascorbic acid, the oxidative damage it was said to do outweights its antioxidant benefits despite researchers stating otherwise, probably because being in lipids I'd assume the oxidative damage would affect the membranes.

 

Now trying asc2p.   Haven't noticed anything negative from asc2p so far.   Will try low dose for a while and see if it has any notable effect, the lowest effective dose the cheaper to add to regimen.   Then will increase dose and see if there's any difference.    Given that I've only found little research on asc2p, unless there's notable differences I'm not sure I'll add it to my regimen.

 

Also this person on youtube appears to say resveratrol + nmn reversed wife's menopause and allowed her to have normal periods again.   That + changes to aging and blood parameters suggests some level of rejuvenation.

 

NMN Resveratrol Trial 1 Year Result | NMN Reversed My Wife's Menopause??


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#484 QuestforLife

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Posted 28 April 2021 - 10:46 AM

Report on ascorbyl palmitate experiment.

 

It seemed promising as some research had postulated it as potential life extending compound, and it also inhibited hyaluronidase increasing hyaluronic acid.

 

Tried it for a few days, noticed notable worsening of skin quality after a few days on it, after suspending even for a day skin quality seemed to improve notably.     Not sure if it was this or something else, but the only change I did I think was add it and drop it.    We've all heard of membrane pacemaker, membrane peroxidation rate is extremely important, membrane oxidation leads to a strong cascade of subsequent free radical production, iirc.   Longer lived animals have more oxidation resistant membranes especially if they are longer lived than expected for their metabolic rate(oxidation theory, or free radical theory exceptions, long lived high metabolism species are explainable by differences in membrane peroxidation index between species).    I suspect that despite its promise, being a lipid soluble substance, although most is supposedly degraded into regular ascorbic acid, the oxidative damage it was said to do outweights its antioxidant benefits despite researchers stating otherwise, probably because being in lipids I'd assume the oxidative damage would affect the membranes.

 

Now trying asc2p.   Haven't noticed anything negative from asc2p so far.   Will try low dose for a while and see if it has any notable effect, the lowest effective dose the cheaper to add to regimen.   Then will increase dose and see if there's any difference.    Given that I've only found little research on asc2p, unless there's notable differences I'm not sure I'll add it to my regimen.

 

 

 

Thanks for the report. 

 

I've done an experiment combining Ester-C vitamin C (the one with the added citrus bioflavanoids in it) with an olive leaf extract, to see if the measurable amounts of Vitamin C in my urine increases (as I saw with high dose glycine).

 

  • A single 1g tablet first thing (~0800) yielded a vitamin C level in urine of 40-50mg/dl last thing (~2230). 
  • 1g tablet first thing and 1g tablet at midday yielded a vitamin C level in urine of ~100mg/dl (Max measurable) last thing.
  • I added 1 tab of Time Health's Olive leaf extract (Oleuropein 350mg,  Hydroxytyrosol 100mg) first thing with a single tablet of 1 g vitamin C (same one as used alone). Over 2 weeks of this dosing protocol and no improvement from 40-50mg/dl measured in urine without the olive leaf extract.

So in this combination at least, another powerful antioxidant has not caused Vitamin C levels in the urine to increase. 

I noticed no improvement or deterioration in skin quality.

 

I may repeat this experiment with asc2p when my current vitamin C runs out.  


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#485 QuestforLife

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Posted 28 April 2021 - 02:25 PM

Update! Summary of ‘Alternative Methods to Extend Telomeres’ Sept 2018 to April 2021
 

Early work on NAD+
https://www.longecit...es/#entry857309
https://www.longecit...e-2#entry868202
SIRT4
https://www.longecit...e-3#entry870174
Loss of NAD+ because of telomere shortening
https://www.longecit...-13#entry900015

 

Work on Statin-Sartan protocol
https://www.longecit...es/#entry862269
link between ROCK inhibitors and telomerase
https://www.longecit...es/#entry864097
possible link with senolytics
https://www.longecit...es/#entry864534
using ROCK and mTOR inhibitors to reprogram brain cancer cells into normal neurons
https://www.longecit...es/#entry865160
How ROCK inhibitors block differentiation
https://www.longecit...e-4#entry878635
Feedback on protocol
https://www.longecit...e-5#entry881808
Summary of ROCK inhibition action on cells
https://www.longecit...e-6#entry883118
Attempts to come up with alternatives to statin and sartans
https://www.longecit...e-7#entry884915
Diagram of interventions
https://www.longecit...e-8#entry885663
Paper linking up ROCK and ECM
https://www.longecit...e-8#entry885731
ROCK and tgf-b
https://www.longecit...e-8#entry886244
Mean and Max lifespan extension with a ROCK inhibitor
https://www.longecit...-10#entry896988
 

Work on telomerase activators and other important telomere papers
Royal Jelly
https://www.longecit...e-2#entry866228
Review of various activators
https://www.longecit...e-4#entry875566
Asiaticoside
https://www.longecit...e-5#entry880274
Some other telomeres studies
https://www.longecit...e-7#entry884556
Effect of antioxidant on telomere shortening in the bone marrow
https://www.longecit...e-8#entry885539
More on the same, later
https://www.longecit...-10#entry896907
Telomere activators and CV diseases
https://www.longecit...e-8#entry885582
Telomere shortening predicts species life span
https://www.longecit...e-9#entry893160
using TERC upregulation to increase telomere length in stem cell
https://www.longecit...-10#entry896804
Telomerase and Splicing Factor regulators
https://www.longecit...-11#entry899109
T cells taking telomere length from other cells
https://www.longecit...-11#entry899161
Do stem cell stimulants deplete the bone marrow pool?
https://www.longecit...-13#entry900006
Hyperbaric oxygen therapy
https://www.longecit...-13#entry900378
Discussion of Blasco paper on hyperlong telomere mice
https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=901986
Discussion of actual in vivo rate of telomere attrition
https://www.longecit...-14#entry902137
GDF11 lengthens telomeres in MSCs via TERC upregulation
https://www.longecit...-15#entry903694
Possible benefit of Klotho to telomeres
https://www.longecit...-15#entry903694
Nucleotides (specifically guanine) for elongation of telomeres: eat Anchovies and Herring!
https://www.longecit...-15#entry904277
Blasco and short telomeres in kidney disease plus possible connection of short telomeres and the cancer causing epithelial to mesenchymal transition
https://www.longecit...-15#entry904567
What is the most powerful telomerase activator and a comparison of methods of measurement
https://www.longecit...-15#entry905188
Melatonin is the best antioxidant for telomeres?
https://www.longecit...-16#entry905284
AKG and telomere length (in mice)
https://www.longecit...-16#entry905690
Discussion of a cell permeable, oxidation resistant form of Vit C and telomeres plus follow on discussion of ROS hormesis in some cell types
https://www.longecit...-16#entry905240
Various discussions on the bioavailability of Asiatic acid/asiaticoside (a purported telomerase activator) and why you may only want a very small dose
https://www.longecit...-14#entry903398

 

View of Aging
Importance of cell size
https://www.longecit...e-4#entry877909
The Selfish Cell lives longer
https://www.longecit...e-5#entry880039
https://www.longecit...e-5#entry880339
Telomeres are NOT passive in aging
https://www.longecit...e-6#entry883065
Discussion of telomeres and cancer
https://www.longecit...e-9#entry892745
Senescence and Cancer, again
https://www.longecit...-10#entry897658
Are methylation changes with age evidence of a program?
https://www.longecit...-12#entry899778
Comments on heterochronic parabiosis
https://www.longecit...-13#entry900319
More on Selfish Cell theory of aging (2021)
https://www.longecit...-14#entry902349
Age related methylation and the connection with the Selfish Cell Theory of Aging
https://www.longecit...-16#entry905284
Plus why aging is cancer
https://www.longecit...-16#entry905627

 

Skin aging
Stem cell competition – can you have too much symmetrical division?
https://www.longecit...e-4#entry879560

 

Results
Methylation results from Statin-Sartan protocol
https://www.longecit...e-3#entry873678
Telomere length improvements via Lifelength
https://www.longecit...e-6#entry883063
PhenoAge improvements
https://www.longecit...e-6#entry883130
Epitalon increases methylation age and discussion
https://www.longecit...e-8#entry892505
Further discussion
https://www.longecit...-11#entry899397
https://www.longecit...-11#entry899496
https://www.longecit...-12#entry899538
Plan to reduce both telomere and methylation age
https://www.longecit...e-9#entry895170
No improvement in methylation age from 3 months of AKG
https://www.longecit...-10#entry896760
Improvement in methylation age from 6 months of AKG
https://www.longecit...-13#entry899822
Further improvement in epigenetic age (-6.6 years)
https://www.longecit...-14#entry903105
Summary of GDF11 experience with biomarkers
https://www.longecit...-15#entry905149

 

Sundry
Fatty Acid Oxidation
https://www.longecit...-10#entry896447
Starvation and stem cell renewal
https://www.longecit...-13#entry899839
See other thread:
Feeding stem cells: the strange case of dietary restriction and alpha lipoic acid
https://www.longecit...id/#entry885897
Possible use of pioglitazone with telomerase activators to increase subcutaneous fat without bladder cancer risk
https://www.longecit...-14#entry902929
Resveratrol is weird.
https://www.longecit...-16#entry905283


Edited by QuestforLife, 28 April 2021 - 02:27 PM.

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#486 QuestforLife

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Posted 30 April 2021 - 01:42 PM

Age Related Methylation

 

As discussed more recently, reduced regulation of the GDF11 promoter by the demethylase TET2 [2] in mesenchymal (and neural) stem cells drives loss of GDF11 and the renewal capacity of these stem cells.

 

Recently I have been researching Oxytocin as another putative rejuvenation molecule and again found the same pattern regarding methylation changes. Keratinocytes (skin cells) in older women (but not men) suffer from methylation of the Oxytocin receptor. [3] 

 

Hot on the heels of reports into methylation disabling the promoters of the purported anti-aging signalling molecules GDF11 and Oxytocin, here is a report that highlights increased methylation of the Klotho  promoter in chronic kidney disease (CKD).

 

Hydrogen sulfide attenuates renal fibrosis by inducing TET-dependent DNA demethylation on Klotho promoter

DOI: 10.1096/fj.201902957RR

 

Klotho has renoprotective effect and its expression is commonly suppressed in CKD patients. We showed that chronic hypoxia in unilateral ureteral obstruction model mice is associated with renal Klotho promoter methylation and expression silencing. Administration of low-dose of sodium hydrosulfide (NaHS) effectively ameliorated renal tubulointerstitial fibrosis in the mouse model by demethylating Klotho promoter and restoring its expression.

 

In this study TET demethylase activity was reduced by the low oxygen and high ROS environment present in CKD. They ameliorated this via NaHS treatment.

 

I wonder if something similar might be behind the increased methylation of GDF11 and Oxytocin promoters.

 

Given GDF11 upregulates TET2 and AKG increases the activity of all the demethylases, I would expect both GDF11 and AKG to increase Klotho expression and may be synergistic with NaHS.


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#487 Castiel

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 04:33 PM

Report on asc2p.

 

Raised dose of asc2p to 500mg per day.   Next day, a few acne like red spots appeared on face.  Not sure if it's an immune reaction, an interaction with something, or what.   Dropped it for a few days, and red spots went away.  Lowered it back down to 250mg a day.   At 250mg a day seems to have not too noticeable effects, perhaps slight improvement in skin appearance.   Will try to remain in low dose for a while and see if I can notice anything.


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#488 QuestforLife

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 09:05 AM

Should we be taking Zinc for our telomeres?

 

Snappy title...Zinc sulfate contributes to promote telomere length extension via increasing telomerase gene expression, telomerase activity and change in the TERT gene promoter CpG island methylation status of human adipose-derived mesenchymal stem cells

 

https://doi.org/10.1...al.pone.0188052

 

 

In order to improve the effective application of
MSCs, these cells were treated with 1.5 × 10−8 and 2.99 × 10−10 M of ZnSO4 for 48 hours.
The results showed that the telomere length, the
hTERT gene expression, and the telomerase activity had significantly increased. In addition,
the percentage of senescent cells had significantly decreased and changes in the methyla-
tion status of the CpG islands in the hTERT promoter region under treatment with ZnSO4
were seen.

 

 

In this paper they looked at adipose derived mesenchymal stem cells in a petri dish and whether different doses of zinc sulphate helped with expanding such cells (as would be required for various cell therapies). They found a physiological dose* (~15nM) was best, slightly increasing telomerase expression and significantly increasing the telomere length of these stem cells when they were held in solution for 48 hours (Fig7).

 

I assume that this means the cells were grown to confluence and then had zinc sulphate added, but were not passaged. So effectively the cells 'had a break' from division whilst their telomeres recovered. I say this because as shown in Fig 5c, cells divided quicker with the optimal dose of zinc; I assume in these conditions telomeres would still have been shortening (but more cell produced overall for the same loss of telomere length).

 

Impressively however, zinc sulphate supplemented and passaged cells accumulated beta galactosidase (a marker of cellular senescence) at a much lower rate than control cells. This is probably the most impressive result in this paper (Fig 6). I wonder if this is simply an antioxidant action in high O2 conditions. It is a pity the study didn't passage cells to final arrest and see if zinc sulphate could extend the period the cells were viable for or increase the total number of divisions. Another question is what do cells do with zinc sulphate once they've got it; I assume they convert it to elemental Zinc?

 

In any case, Zinc sulphate is a cheap and easily available and it makes sense to supplement it.

 

*I found a paper on zinc levels on pregnant women that suggested 10nM was a low level that could be increased by ~2nM with 20mg zinc sulphate powder per day (https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/19810298/)

*Another study with patients on dialysis supplementing with 50mg of elemental Zinc (as zinc sulphate) per day improved their serum levels of zinc from 12nM (reckoned 'low') to ~15nM.
https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/12105816/

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#489 QuestforLife

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Posted 06 May 2021 - 09:18 AM

Polygenic basis and biomedical consequences of telomere length variation

 

https://doi.org/10.1....03.23.21253516

 

 

Here we characterize the genetic architecture of naturally-occurring variation in leucocyte telomere length (LTL) and identify causal links between LTL and biomedical phenotypes in 472,174 well-characterized participants in UK Biobank…Finally, we estimated that at age 40 years, people with >1-SD shorter compared to ≥1-SD longer LTL than the population mean had 2.5 years lower life expectancy.

 

Thanks to Phoebus for posting.

 

All the genetic contributions to LTL were extremely weak; even all summed together in the same direction they make <6% difference. They don’t actually tell you what that was measured to be in bases, but I assume individual variation in LTL is much larger than can be accounted for by these genes. Given the large sample size I think it is unlikely that there are very significant gene contributors yet to be discovered. We’re left with telomere length being mainly inherited and eroded from there, with minor contributions outside of big genetic errors (like with Dyskeratosis congenita, which is not addressed here).

 

They also looked at correlations between various biomarkers and LTL and they are all very unimpressive, with comparative observational studies always showing an even weaker correlation. The exception are correlations between various red and white blood cell parameters and LTL, with LTL possibly being an influence on the bias of differentiation, with more neutrophils and erythrocytes with longer telomeres, and  more lymphocytes and eosinophils with shorter telomeres. There might also be a link with the size of blood cells (corpuscular volume),with longer telomeres producing smaller cells.

 

They also look at the modification of risk factors for various diseases per extra standard deviation of LTL. Again, the genetic predictions are larger than that seen in observational studies. Some of the risk factors for organ cancers look alarming at first glance(over x2 per SD of longer LTL for Sarcoma, Thyroid and Kidney cancers, although considerably under 2 for the equivalent observational studies). But this doesn’t factor in the rarity of those cancers compared to the more common cancers whose risk doesn’t increase with LTL.

When they look at all cause mortality per SD of LTL there is a clear benefit for longer telomeres, with ~+2.5 years years of greater life expectancy for men and women with +1SD compared to -1SD, and this holds up from age 40 to 65 (when you’d expect people with longer telomeres to start to predominant and mess up the figures).

 

Most interestingly, the extra years of life from the 2SDs of LTL are broken down thus (for men; women are similar): 13% reduced cardiovascular disease, 5% reduced cancer deaths, remainder other causes.

 

Conclusion: In the context of the normal variation in LTL in a large sample size (~500k), longer telomeres are associated with longer life with reduced deaths from both cardiovascular causes AND cancer (albeit with an elevated risk factor of rare organ cancer).

 

My take has always been to maintain telomeres at a youthful level within the context of normal cell replacement; I see nothing in this paper to change that assessment.

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#490 QuestforLife

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Posted 08 May 2021 - 09:34 AM

Number and Replating Capacity of Endothelial Colony-Forming Cells are Telomere Length Dependent: Implication for Human Atherogenesis

doi: 10.1161/JAHA.120.020606

Background: Short leukocyte telomere length (TL) is associated with atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. Endothelial repair plays a key role in the development of atherosclerosis. The objective was to examine associations between TL and proliferative dynamics of endothelial colony-forming cells (ECFCs), which behave as progenitor cells displaying endothelial repair activity


This paper looks at leukocyte telomere length (LTL) as predictive in cardiovascular disease (CVD). They did this by not only measuring LTL but also the presence of Endothelial Colony Forming Cells (ECFC) and where present, their telomere length and their ability to form new endothelial lining (,which is the function of these progenitors).

They found that those patients in whose blood they could find no ECFCs had the shortest LTL. Patients who had ECFCs but without the ability to form colonies (make new endothelial lining) had an intermediate LTL, and the patients whose ECFCs could form colonies had the longest LTL. They also found that in this group, the telomere length of the ECFCs was (~1kb) longer than LTL but the two were strongly correlated (~0.8, p<0.00001).

This suggests to me that they are both inheriting their TL from the same upstream stem cell pool, or from separate pools that are losing TL at the same rate.

The results are in accord with other studies were longer LTL correlate with greater life expectancy and less cardiovascular disease (see last post).

Takeaway: this study adds further weight to the Janic et al study (10.1089/rej.2015.1722) where they reversed the early signs of CVD by increasing telomerase using a statin and a sartan. Therefore an intervention that increases LTL should also lengthen the TL of endothelial progenitor cells and allow them to form new endothelial lining.
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#491 Castiel

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 10:57 AM

Asc2p test update:

 

1 or 2 days did not seem to have much difference in skin appearance, but after a few more days it appears that at least some aspects are probably detrimental to skin quality.  Not sure why, but the effect seems similar to ascorbyl palmitate, slight appearance of wrinkles and some dryness of skin.   Seems to add several years to appearance.    Suspended the consumption of asc2p and after a few days things have reverted back.

 

Must say from the various tests upping the amount of plain ascorbic acid with a few bioflavonoids was probably the most impactful in terms of beneficial effect on skin appearance.   I increased my dosage from 3g, to 4.5-6.5g.   Used to take 1g of ascorbic acid in the morning with 500mg time release, and likewise in the evening.   Now am taking 1g of ascorbic acid every 4-6hours + 500mg of time release before bed time.   I noticed notable improvement from the increased vit c dosage.  I'm also taking collagen and bone broth, but whatever the vitamin c is doing appears to be impressive(as I was also taking collagen and bone broth at lower dose of vit c).

 

Heard a random comment that it is important to make sure vitamin c is not oxidized in supplement, if it is brown no good.   Sometimes the bottles are too old, were exposed to heat or come with improper seals and it comes oxidized out of the bottle.

 

I hear Linus Pauling was even taking 18g of vitamin C a day, not sure what his reasoning was.  To help with his illness, perhaps?



#492 QuestforLife

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 11:44 AM

Asc2p test update:

 

 

 

So to summarise, your skin looked worse on ascorbyl palmitate and Asc2p, but better on ascorbic acid (assume this is sodium ascorbate?) so you are now increasing its dosage?

 

I used to make my own liposomal vitamin C and it seemed to improve my skin. Here is a paper from Altrient showing benefits from their liposomal sachets on elasticity and wrinkles.

 

https://www.altrient...on-Consumer.pdf

 

It can be concluded that the use of the test article (Altrient C / LivOn Labs Liposomal Vitamin C) in either

dosage tested shows a statistically significant improvement to the level of skin viscoelasticity and a
statistically significant reduction in the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles. Following 16 weeks of regular
routine usage the results continued to show an improvement with a slower rate of improvement being
observed past 12 weeks of usage.


Edited by QuestforLife, 11 May 2021 - 11:45 AM.

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#493 Castiel

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 07:50 PM

So to summarise, your skin looked worse on ascorbyl palmitate and Asc2p, but better on ascorbic acid (assume this is sodium ascorbate?) so you are now increasing its dosage?

 

I used to make my own liposomal vitamin C and it seemed to improve my skin. Here is a paper from Altrient showing benefits from their liposomal sachets on elasticity and wrinkles.

 

https://www.altrient...on-Consumer.pdf

 

Well I'm taking the kirkland brand 1g vitamin c with bioflavonoids.   Very cheap.

 

I have very good eye sight and a harsh white light.   You have to be careful about skin appearance, under some lights you basically cannot see minor changes, but a strong harsh white light, as in a lab, shows skin in worse possible condition, with such you can tell any minor changes quite easy.

 

So far I'm pretty pleased with taking 1g every 4 to 6 hours.   Complete wrinkle removal, it seems.   Even been recently asked if I'm over 18 a few times, so stuff quite good.



#494 Castiel

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 10:37 PM

To go into more detail I upped the ascorbic acid intake last month.   Noticed good changes to skin, in addition to that I later added the ascorbyl palmitate in 500mg dose, and that seemed to have detrimental effect.   So dropped ascorbyl palmitate.   Skin improved after dropping ascorbyl palmitate.  After that tried asc2p for 1-2 days at 250mg, minor changes, so upped to 500mg asc2p got some acne like 3-4 red spots after doing that.   So stopped it and red spots cleared quite quickly.   Restarted asc2p at 250mg for several days and noticed appearance of wrinkles.   Dropped asc2p and skin appearance improved again.   As said throughout all of this I've been taking the ascorbic acid at 1g every 4-6 hours + 500mg time release at night.


Edited by Castiel, 11 May 2021 - 10:47 PM.


#495 Castiel

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 11:24 PM

Researched ascorbic acid and aging, as I suspected synthesis might decrease with aging as many other beneficial things also do.    It seems that is indeed the case, in many tissues there is an age related decline in vitamin c synthesis in some animals at least.  Vitamin C also appears to halt some accelerated aging conditions too.

 

 

 

AA levels rose in the liver, skin and skeletal muscles from 6 to 12 mo of age, but declined from 12 to 24 mo. In the cerebellum, cerebrum, small intestine, kidney and plasma, amounts of AA remained almost constant as the animals aged. Most notably, urinary AA decreased markedly until becoming almost undetectable at 24 and 30 mo of age. Collectively, these results, which compare changes in AA levels in specific physiologic targets throughout the aging process, strongly suggest that the AA synthesizing capacity declines over time to become a major factor in senescence-related diseases.
https://www.jstage.j...8/3/58_169/_pdf

 

Another interesting finding

 

 

New research suggests that treatments for disorders that cause accelerated aging, particularly Werner's syndrome, might come straight from the family medicine chest. In their study, a team of Canadian scientists shows that vitamin C stops and even reverses accelerated aging in a mouse model of Werner's syndrome, but the discovery may also be applicable to other progeroid syndromes.
https://www.scienced...00104101210.htm

 

Another unrelated thing to vitamin c but related to telomeres

 

Telomere shortening is one of the main causes of cellular senescence. Caffeine is a natural stimulant most commonly found in coffee and tea. In this study, caffeine was found to promote the expression of telomerase reverse transcriptase (TERT) at both mRNA and protein levels, and consequently extended the telomere length and prevented cellular senescence. Knockdown of TERT eliminated the effect of caffeine on telomere elongation. Moreover, animal studies indicated that caffeine promoted the expression of TERT and extended the telomere length in the thymus and spleen of mice treated with caffeine for a long period of eight months. In addition, caffeine restored the decline of organ index and improved the histological structural change of the thymus, spleen and liver of mice due to aging. These results suggest that caffeine promotes the expression of TERT to delay cellular senescence and aging, which help to understand the mechanism for the beneficial effects of caffeine containing foods on health.

 

https://pubs.rsc.org.../fo/d0fo03246h/


Edited by Castiel, 11 May 2021 - 11:59 PM.

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#496 Castiel

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 01:40 AM

 

A video commenting on telomeres and aging, shows a meta analysis suggest short telomeres in aging increase all cause mortality by 26%, iirc.

 

Also says that KDM(Klemera Doubal) biological age has stronger correlation with chronological age than telomeres, and KDM age is lowered when practicing Calorie Restriction.



#497 pamojja

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:28 PM

I hear Linus Pauling was even taking 18g of vitamin C a day, not sure what his reasoning was. To help with his illness, perhaps?


Read here in his own words: https://archive.org/...ge/n17/mode/2up
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#498 QuestforLife

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 01:58 PM

Another unrelated thing to vitamin c but related to telomeres

https://pubs.rsc.org.../fo/d0fo03246h/

 

The 'Caffeine promotes the expression of telomerase reverse transcriptase to regulate cellular senescence and aging' paper is intriguing, but published in an obscure journal I've been unable to get the full text (for free).

 

I was able to get hold of the figures however (attached).

 

Looking at Fig B, I'm not sure how realistic those caffeine serum levels are (maybe you could get to 0.5mM but I doubt much higher). Nevertheless the abstract does claim an in vivo benefit to mice on caffeine

 

 

 Telomere shortening is one of the main causes of cellular senescence. Caffeine is a natural stimulant most commonly found in coffee and tea. In this study, caffeine was found to promote the expression of telomerase reverse transcriptase (TERT) at both mRNA and protein levels, and consequently extended the telomere length and prevented cellular senescence. Knockdown of TERT eliminated the effect of caffeine on telomere elongation. Moreover, animal studies indicated that caffeine promoted the expression of TERT and extended the telomere length in the thymus and spleen of mice treated with caffeine for a long period of eight months. In addition, caffeine restored the decline of organ index and improved the histological structural change of the thymus, spleen and liver of mice due to aging. These results suggest that caffeine promotes the expression of TERT to delay cellular senescence and aging, which help to understand the mechanism for the beneficial effects of caffeine containing foods on health.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Caffeine Telomerase 2021.png

Edited by QuestforLife, 12 May 2021 - 02:00 PM.

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#499 Castiel

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 03:37 PM

Was watching another video from Michael Lustgarten Ph.d

 

What's interesting to note is the vitamin C blood level vs All Cause mortality chart.   The data only goes up to about 100 micromole/L plasma vitamin c level,  the higher the plasma C the lower the all cause mortality in a straight linear decrease.     Oral C in divided doses is said to be able to achieve 250 micromole blood levels, iirc.  That to me suggests if the chart can be extrapolated a notable decrease in all cause mortality might be possible with higher C intake.

 

The Science of Vitamin C Research on Optimizing Blood and Cellular Levels | WholeFoods Magazine


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#500 pamojja

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 03:57 PM

Oral C in divided doses is said to be able to achieve 250 micromole blood levels, iirc.  That to me suggests if the chart can be extrapolated a notable decrease in all cause mortality might be possible with higher C intake.

 
It gets better than that. Even above 500 µmol/L steady serum-levels could be reached with 20g oral ascorbic acid throughout the day only:
 

Journal of the New Zealand Medical Association, 23-August-2002, Vol 115 No 1160

Glycohaemoglobin and ascorbic acid

Copplestone et al1 (http://www.nzma.org....al/115-1157/25/) identified misleading glycohaemoglobin (GHb) results due to a haemoglobin variant (Hb D Punjab) and listed a number of other possible causes for such false results (ie, haemolytic anaemia, uraemia, lead poisoning, alcoholism, high-dose salicylates and hereditary persistence of foetal haemoglobin).

We have observed a significant "false" lowering of GHb in animals and humans supplementing ascorbic acid (AA) at multigram levels. Mice receiving ~7.5 mg/d (equivalent to > 10 g/day in a 70 kg human) exhibited no decrease in plasma glucose, but a 23% reduction in GHb.2 In humans, supplementation of AA for several months did not lower fasting plasma glucose.3,4 We studied 139 consecutive consenting non-diabetic patients in an oncology clinic. The patients had been encouraged as part of their treatment to supplement AA. Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake. Regression analysis of their GHb and plasma AA values showed a statistically significant inverse association (eg, each 30 µmol/L increase in plasma AA concentration resulted in a decrease of 0.1 in GHb).

(emphasis by me)

 

Also at such amounts I must assume there is absorption bypassing any transporters by difussion. Otherwise it would be unexplainable that a sneezing-fit from my seasonal rhinitis would stop within 5-10 minutes of taking a teaspoon of ascorbic acid in water. About the time the water takes for absorption in the blood-stream itself.

 

Attached File  Ascorbic acid, glycation, glycohemoglobin and aging.pdf   165.5KB   739 downloads


Edited by pamojja, 12 May 2021 - 04:09 PM.

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#501 Castiel

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 03:07 AM

 

Very interesting it seems C-reactive is strongly correlated with phenoage and grimage epigenetic age, think strongest correlation of any blood measurement.    Lower creactive correlates with lower epigenetic age.

 

I wonder, the other chart showed All Cause Mortality linearly decreases up to 100 micromole blood levels, which is as far as the chart measures.    It suggests if the linear decrease continues that even higher blood levels might further reduce all cause mortality.    Creactive appears connected to epigenetic age and higher all cause mortality.   I wonder if higher levels of vitamin C would result in lower levels of Creactive protein.

 

 

 

Among participants with CRP indicative of elevated cardiovascular risk (> or =1.0 mg/L), vitamin C reduced the median CRP by 25.3% vs placebo (p=0.02) (median reduction in the vitamin C group, 0.25 mg/L, 16.7%). These effects are similar to those of statins. The vitamin E effect was not significant. In summary, treatment with vitamin C but not vitamin E significantly reduced CRP among individuals with CRP > or =1.0 mg/L. Among the obese, 75% had CRP > or =1.0 mg/L. Research is needed to determine whether reducing this inflammatory biomarker with vitamin C could reduce diseases associated with obesity. But research on clinical benefits of antioxidants should limit participants to persons with elevations in the target biomarkers.
https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/18952164/

 

 

 

 In the experimental group, vitamin C significantly reduced the levels of high-sensitivity C-reactive protein (hs-CRP), interleukin 6 (IL-6), fasting blood glucose (FBG), and triglyceride (TG) after 8 weeks of treatment (overall: P<0.001); no changes appeared in total cholesterol (TC). In the control group, there were significant reductions in FBG and TG (P=0.001 and P=0.026, respectively), and no changes in hs-CRP, IL-6, or TC. On comparing the changes in the experimental group with those in the control group at the endpoint, vitamin C was found to have achieved clinical significance in treating effectiveness for reducing hs-CRP, IL-6, and FBG levels (P=0.01, P=0.001, and P<0.001, respectively), but no significant changes in TC or TG were found.
Conclusion: Vitamin C (500 mg twice daily) has potential effects in alleviating inflammatory status by reducing hs-CRP, IL-6, and FBG in hypertensive and/or diabetic obese patients.
https://www.dovepres...xt-article-DDDT

 

Two studies suggesting moderate vitamin C effectively reduces creactive protein strongest blood correlate with two epigenetic age clocks.    The question is would mega dose further reduce creactive protein? That video suggests the lower the C reactive the lower the ACM, and greater survival rate.

 

Interesting it also seems that vitamin c supplementation increases albumin with increasing amount in some animals.   Higher albumin associated with longevity too.

https://www.research..._fig1_281893103


Edited by Castiel, 13 May 2021 - 03:22 AM.

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#502 QuestforLife

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 08:01 AM

The 'Caffeine promotes the expression of telomerase reverse transcriptase to regulate cellular senescence and aging' paper is intriguing, but published in an obscure journal I've been unable to get the full text (for free).

 

I was able to get hold of the figures however (attached).

 

Looking at Fig B, I'm not sure how realistic those caffeine serum levels are (maybe you could get to 0.5mM but I doubt much higher). Nevertheless the abstract does claim an in vivo benefit to mice on caffeine

 

Dark chocolate with your coffee, anyone?

 

Caffeine’s activity is mediated through adenosine competition (the adenosine molecule on its own not the form linked to phosphates, as in AMP, ADP or ATP). Caffeine is a very similar molecule to adenosine and therefore has a high affinity for the adenosine receptor. This is why coffee is a stimulant – because it blocks the fatigue inducing effect of adenosine build-up. So far, nothing we don't know. But this is where it gets interesting: the enzyme adenosine deaminase (ADA) is required for proper telomerase activation in leukocytes, being part of the induction of their response to infection.

 

In this study, we show that the CD8+CD28+ T lymphocytes that are ADA+ have significantly greater telomerase activity than those that do not express ADA and that ADA is progressively lost as cultures progress to senescence. Because ADA converts adenosine to inosine, cells lacking this enzyme might be subject to prolonged exposure to adenosine, which has immunosuppressive effects. Indeed, we show that chronic exposure of CD8 T lymphocytes to exogenous adenosine accelerates the process of replicative senescence, causing a reduction in overall proliferative potential, reduced telomerase activity, and blunted IL-2 gene transcription. 

 

doi:10.4049/jimmunol.0903647

 

 

Does the above explain the recent report of caffeine activating telomerase? I think so.  Caffeine's presence may be fooling the adenosine receptor into upregulating ADA and causing greater telomerase activation (at least in immune cells; it's effects might be broader). Therefore caffeine may to some degree protect the immune system from aging.

 

Just to give you an idea of the extent of the problem with senescence in the immune system, check out the following paper.

 

 

Using a second-generation fluorogenic substrate for β-galactosidase and multi-parameter flow cytometry, we demonstrate here that peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) isolated from healthy humans increasingly display cells with high senescence-associated β-galactosidase (SA-βGal) activity with advancing donor age. The greatest age-associated increases were observed in CD8+ T-cell populations, in which the fraction of cells with high SA-βGal activity reached average levels of 64% in donors in their 60s. CD8+ T cells with high SA-βGal activity, but not those with low SA-βGal activity, were found to exhibit features of telomere dysfunction-induced senescence and p16-mediated senescence, were impaired in their ability to proliferate, developed in various T-cell differentiation states, and had a gene expression signature consistent with the senescence state previously observed in human fibroblasts. Based on these results, we propose that senescent CD8+ T cells with classical features of cellular senescence accumulate to levels that are significantly higher than previously reported.

 

DOI: 10.1111/acel.13344

 

 

I previously raised doubts about whether a level of 1mM + of caffeine could be achieved in the blood – even it is possible, it might not be safe – but are there any alternatives? Theobromine is a metabolite of caffeine, a much gentler stimulant, again being a very similar molecule (caffeine with one less methyl group) theobromine also has an affinity for the adenosine receptor, and it has a longer half life than caffeine. It is available as a supplement, but also present in significant amounts in cocoa.

 

If theobromine activates telomerase we might expect to see longer telomeres in those that eat chocolate compared to those that don't. Indeed, there is some evidence for this.

 

 

Among the 660 adolescents, 58% did not take any chocolate, 25% consumed <2 servings/week, and 17% consumed ≥2 servings/week. Compared to non-consumers, adolescents who consumed chocolate of ≥2 servings/week had 0.27 standard deviation (SD) longer LTL (p = 0.014).

 

https://doi.org/10.1...1390-019-0590-6

 

 

Dark chocolate with your coffee, anyone?


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#503 OlderThanThou2

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 12:59 PM

Mocha shown to be good for the aging brain:

 

 

When cocoa or chocolate is added to coffee it may be even more helpful. Italian researchers reported that older people consuming two or more cups of mocha coffee daily were less depressed and had better scores on cognitive function tests (Nutrients, Feb. 6, 2021). They note: "This is the first study focused on the association between a specific coffee preparation method (i.e. mocha) and cognitive impairment and late-life depression in a homogeneous population of non-demented elderly subjects with (subcortical ischemic vascular disease)."

 

 

The study doesn't talk about telomeres. But it seems there might be a synergistic effect between coffee and cocoa. Coffee taken alone might not improve MCI in elderly people beyond one cup/day, due to it contracting blood vessels, but adding cocoa might eventually counteract that:

 

 

 

A recent study in Italy has evaluated the association between modification or constant habits in coffee intake and the occurrence of MCI in a sample of elderly subjects followed-up for 3.5 years [86]. This study found that individuals who usually drink a moderate daily quantity of coffee (one–two cups) exhibited a lower rate of MCI compared to non-drinkers or occasional consumers. Those who increased coffee consumption (>one cup) shower a higher incidence rate of MCI than subjects with constant habits (up to +/− one cup) or those without consumption. Additionally, no significant association between higher quantity of coffee intake (>two cups) and the incidence of MCI compared with non-drinkers or occasional consumers was observed [86]. Conversely, heavy and prolonged coffee consumption is associated with the risk of WMLs in later life, likely through an increase in arterial stiffness, vascular resistance, and cerebral vasoconstriction. This may result in reduced cerebral blood flow and eventually lead to an increased rate and severity of vascular lesions [87].

 


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#504 aribadabar

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 05:30 PM

I previously raised doubts about whether a level of 1mM + of caffeine could be achieved in the blood – even it is possible, it might not be safe – but are there any alternatives? Theobromine is a metabolite of caffeine, a much gentler stimulant, again being a very similar molecule (caffeine with one less methyl group) theobromine also has an affinity for the adenosine receptor, and it has a longer half life than caffeine. It is available as a supplement, but also present in significant amounts in cocoa.

 

If theobromine activates telomerase we might expect to see longer telomeres in those that eat chocolate compared to those that don't. Indeed, there is some evidence for this.

 

Dark chocolate with your coffee, anyone?

 

 

Most cocoa sold to consumers is alkalized/dutched. Is theobromine preserved after alkalization?

By the same token, isn't (dark) chocolate made mostly by alkalized cocoa?


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#505 QuestforLife

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 07:35 PM

Most cocoa sold to consumers is alkalized/dutched. Is theobromine preserved after alkalization?
By the same token, isn't (dark) chocolate made mostly by alkalized cocoa?


I have no idea but in any case, dark chocolate is ~1% theobromine.

https://fdc.nal.usda...?component=1058

#506 aribadabar

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Posted 15 May 2021 - 01:12 AM

I have no idea but in any case, dark chocolate is ~1% theobromine.

https://fdc.nal.usda...?component=1058

 

 

Thanks - it seems alkalization , not only does not reduce, but actually ENHANCES, theobromine content by ~30% in cocoa powder  (142mg vs 117mg per 5.4g serving) ?

Does that make sense to you?

 


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#507 QuestforLife

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Posted 15 May 2021 - 07:49 AM

Thanks - it seems alkalization , not only does not reduce, but actually ENHANCES, theobromine content by ~30% in cocoa powder (142mg vs 117mg per 5.4g serving) ?
Does that make sense to you?


Yes, there's an increase of theobromine content from 2.1 to 2.6% with alkalization. It doesn't say but I'm assuming this must be 100% cocoa powder in both cases.

#508 ihatesnow

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Posted 15 May 2021 - 07:26 PM

https://finance.yaho...-090029066.html   



#509 Castiel

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 02:06 AM

Dark chocolate with your coffee, anyone?

 

Caffeine’s activity is mediated through adenosine competition (the adenosine molecule on its own not the form linked to phosphates, as in AMP, ADP or ATP). Caffeine is a very similar molecule to adenosine and therefore has a high affinity for the adenosine receptor. This is why coffee is a stimulant – because it blocks the fatigue inducing effect of adenosine build-up. So far, nothing we don't know. But this is where it gets interesting: the enzyme adenosine deaminase (ADA) is required for proper telomerase activation in leukocytes, being part of the induction of their response to infection.

 

 

 

Does the above explain the recent report of caffeine activating telomerase? I think so.  Caffeine's presence may be fooling the adenosine receptor into upregulating ADA and causing greater telomerase activation (at least in immune cells; it's effects might be broader). Therefore caffeine may to some degree protect the immune system from aging.

 

Just to give you an idea of the extent of the problem with senescence in the immune system, check out the following paper.

 

 

 

 

I previously raised doubts about whether a level of 1mM + of caffeine could be achieved in the blood – even it is possible, it might not be safe – but are there any alternatives? Theobromine is a metabolite of caffeine, a much gentler stimulant, again being a very similar molecule (caffeine with one less methyl group) theobromine also has an affinity for the adenosine receptor, and it has a longer half life than caffeine. It is available as a supplement, but also present in significant amounts in cocoa.

 

If theobromine activates telomerase we might expect to see longer telomeres in those that eat chocolate compared to those that don't. Indeed, there is some evidence for this.

 

 

 

 

Dark chocolate with your coffee, anyone?

 

Well, not sure if caffeine can reach such levels, safety might depend on caffeine metabolism that varies from person to person.    But usually it is said up to 8 cups of coffee a day do not usually have negative effects(care needs to be taken as coffee is said to inhibit absorption of certain things like some b vitamins), up to 6 cups seems to have lowering of mortality per additional cup.

 

https://www.hcplive....atment-outcomes

 

 

Drinking up to one cup of coffee per day was associated with a 27% reduction in all-cause mortality compared to no consumption, while drinking more than one cup per day was associated with a 44% reduction in all-cause mortality.

The findings suggest that only caffeinated coffee had a "protective effect" against all causes of mortality over the full 18-year period of the study.

The researchers concede that their results "may not seem fully innovative."

But they say theirs is the first study to evaluate the association between coffee consumption and all-cause, CVD, and cancer mortality in adults aged 20 years and older in a Mediterranean country, namely Spain. They say their findings are consistent with previous studies elsewhere in Europe, and in the United States and Asia.

 

https://www.dw.com/e...alth/a-57279206

 

As for chocolate care needs to be taken for heavy metals, hear highest flavanol vs lowest heavy metal used to be ghirardelli high purity.    A Theobromine extract could be used, but extract preparations aren't always accurate and could lead to issue(while few far more green tea extract adverse reactions than those from drinking green tea).    We'd need a properly standardized one, and optimal level would have to be researched.

 

We do know the oldest woman in the world, supposedly, supposedly ate like 2lb of chocolate a week.   And that was probably milk chocolate which has less theobromine.

 

I have been recently taking 6 cups of coffee + matcha + dark chocolate daily, divided throughout the day obviously or that'd give caffeine overdose.    Generally most caffeine I can handle in one sitting is around 600mg, but that already is a bit uncomfortable.   Try to keep it under 300mg in one sitting.

 

Dutch processing might raise theobromine a bit, but I hear it drastically reduces flavonols, so it's a double edged sword.    I think the ghirardelli is not Dutch processed, as it has high flavonol content.



#510 Castiel

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 03:30 AM

A single cup of coffee, which contains 100 mg of caffeine, brings caffeine blood levels up to about 5 or 6 mg/L. 

 

https://www.vox.com/...e-energy-drinks

 

An online calculator using the molar mass of caffeine gave me the following result that is 0.02575 Moles/L

 

 

 

I previously raised doubts about whether a level of 1mM + of caffeine could be achieved in the blood – even it is possible, it might not be safe – but are there any alternatives?

What is 1mM+?  Is it one millimole per Liter or is it per deciliter or is it something else?

 

edit:

Will say with all these telomerase boosting compounds, probably even olive oil given it is said to activate sirtuins, some say sirtuin 1 but have heard it might activate a few, I'm beginning to suspect something.   Would be good to know if it activates sirt 4.    The fact that asc2p, a strong antioxidant, reduces the rate of telomere shortening, and that shorter lived animals have higher rates of telomere loss, at least some do.   Rate of telomere shortening linked to lifespan.

 

Given the age related changes the body undergoes, I suspect that what is happening is a tug of war, oxidative stress is probably accelerating telomere loss with aging, and telomere lengthening compounds are partially countering that.    I suspect that a telomere lengthening multicompound strategy together with strong antioxidant regimen maybe stuff like amla and astaxanthin, might be able to win such war if it is indeed what is happening.

 

edit2:

 

Searching for stuff related to this found the following

 

Interestingly, the rate of loss of telomeric DNA is not constant but appears to depend on the length of telomere [17,18] and the level of oxidative stress [9].

 

and

 

 

Consistently, many studies have found that increased oxidative damage in cells is associated with aging [51–53]. Furthermore, genetic studies in worm, fly, and mouse have linked enhanced stress resistance or reduced free radical production with increased lifespan [27].Oct 2, 2011 https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3184498/

 

To me this suggests oxidative stress might increase with aging.
 


Edited by Castiel, 16 May 2021 - 03:56 AM.






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