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Alternative methods to extend telomeres

telomeres nad nampt ampk resveratrol allicin methylene blue nmn sirtuins statin

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#511 QuestforLife

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 07:45 AM

https://www.vox.com/...e-energy-drinks

An online calculator using the molar mass of caffeine gave me the following result that is 0.02575 Moles/L

What is 1mM+? Is it one millimole per Liter or is it per deciliter or is it something else?


You have calculated mM/L (0.025mM = 6mg/L /194mg/Mole).

I'd double that for a strong cup of coffee (like a 'grande' you'd buy). Then caffeine has a 5 hr half life. If you got another coffee after a few hours you'd have to to factor that in. Even more so if you do that repeatedly throughout the day. I'm still struggling to see someone achieve more than 0.2mM. I might get a bit more as I'm genetically a slow caffeine metaboliser but then again that's why I don't tend to have more than 3 cups/day!

It is tricky looking at ROS and telomere shortneing. There is some optimal level. The paper you post is a case in point, positing an advantage with ROS in a heterogeneous pool of cells (like we've seen in this thread with some cell types and hydrogen peroxide), because it selects for the less damage prone cells. There is also the added complication of taking anti oxidants decreasing endogenous production. Overall though, I'm still pro taking antioxidants of some form.
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#512 Castiel

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 10:40 AM

Personal Experiment update:

As you knew I was going to try Asc2p + high dose Resveratrol(700mg with olive oil) + gotu kola, at the same time I was doing this I was also doing 6.5g of vitamin c a day.

 

Even after discontinuing asc2p I still stayed with resveratrol and gotu kola.    Now I thought the vitamin C was what was behind the skin changes, as it seemed increasing dose had resulted in notable improvement within days.    But after dropping high dose resveratrol and gotu kola, reducing resveratrol to 100mg in olive oil, skin appearance worsened a bit.    Decided to try to add back some of the compounds alone to see if things improved back.   Added the gotu kola extract and things improved back by the next day.    Now the gotu kola extract I'm taking also has 100mg of pycnogenol.   So I think it could have been either the pycnogenol or the gotu kola.    

 

Need to try pycnogenol without gotu kola, and gotu kola without pycnogenol, to see which is contributing more.   Assuming its not a synergistic effect between the two.   Will also try amla another potent antioxidant, and see if it has similar effects, as amla is quite cheap(400+ half teaspoon doses for like $16).     Hope is not the gotu kola as that I think needs to be cycled.

 

That said while difference is minor, and all but undetectable in some mirrors, will say that personally under strong harsh light I think it is like 5-10 year difference in appearance, at least under strong harsh light on a good mirror.


Edited by Castiel, 16 May 2021 - 11:03 AM.


#513 Castiel

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 11:01 AM

You have calculated mM/L (0.025mM = 6mg/L /194mg/Mole).

I'd double that for a strong cup of coffee (like a 'grande' you'd buy). Then caffeine has a 5 hr half life. If you got another coffee after a few hours you'd have to to factor that in. Even more so if you do that repeatedly throughout the day. I'm still struggling to see someone achieve more than 0.2mM. I might get a bit more as I'm genetically a slow caffeine metaboliser but then again that's why I don't tend to have more than 3 cups/day!

It is tricky looking at ROS and telomere shortneing. There is some optimal level. The paper you post is a case in point, positing an advantage with ROS in a heterogeneous pool of cells (like we've seen in this thread with some cell types and hydrogen peroxide), because it selects for the less damage prone cells. There is also the added complication of taking anti oxidants decreasing endogenous production. Overall though, I'm still pro taking antioxidants of some form.

what does the small m in mM stand for?  because I'd think it stands for milli, if it was millimoles, than 0.025Moles is 25mM, no?.

 

Been several decades since I took a chemistry class.   Not sure could be mole/Liter is already in millimole units.   But one would hope it is not so misleading.  If you have 0.025Moles and you disolve that in one liter, shouldn't that be 25milliMoles dissolved in a liter?

 

As for ROS and telomeres, remember the membrane pacemaker theory of aging that explains lifespan differences between animals with similar high metabolism.   Membrane composition varies, and peroxidation index measures how easily membranes oxidate, animals with longer lifespan tend to have significantly more oxidation resistant membranes.  Also as said longer lived animals have notably shorter rate of telomere shortening.   Both might be related via oxidative stress.    Unlike cytosol oxidative damage, lipid damage has a pernicious effect where it has an exponentially magnifying effect of oxidative molecule production from what I've heard.  Basically oxidized membranes generate tons of reactive molecules in a cascade that has positive feedback cycles and magnifies into exponentially more damage, or so it went from what I recall.    In theory if you can protect the membranes you can drastically reduce oxidative damage far more than antioxidants at any other location.    There probably are age related changes in membrane composition that reduce membrane resistance to oxidation.

 

Rejuvenating gene expression, should restore membranes to more resistant state, also membrane targeting super antioxidants like astaxanthin might be of use.   I'm thinking high dose astaxanthin might show promise in theory, but not willing to test that out without seeing experiments on safety.(care needs to be taken like resveratrol and trans vs cis form, astaxanthin is a molecule with important impact to function from its shape, synthetic astaxanthin tends to lack the optimal shape present in natural astaxanthin).    Astaxanthin is said to potentially be nature's most powerful antioxidant, and it's shape allows it to perfectly embed in membranes spanning them from side to side.    

 

Given the importance of membranes to maximum lifespan, I think lipid soluble and membrane targeting antioxidants are of promise.   Astaxanthin said to be the most powerful, seems particularly promising.   But as said without experiments showing it safe at far higher doses, it is probably not recommendable to exceed recommended dosing.    That said AMLA is the food highest in antioxidants, I've not checked its antioxidant profile but there's a chance it has membrane targeting lipid soluble antioxidants too.


Edited by Castiel, 16 May 2021 - 11:05 AM.


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#514 Castiel

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 11:11 AM

 

Lipid peroxidation is initiated when a metabolism-derived free radical with an unpaired electron (R•) and enough energy attacks one of these bis-allylic hydrogens on a polyunsaturated lipid molecule (LH). It removes the hydrogen (and a single electron) from the fatty acid chain and leaves the carbon with an unpaired electron. Consequently, the polyunsaturated fatty acid chain thus attacked becomes itself a reactive molecule, a lipid C-centred radical (L•), which is capable of combining with an oxygen molecule to become a lipid peroxyl radical (LOO•). Lipid peroxyl radicals can become a lipid hydroperoxide (LOOH) by removing another bis-allylic hydrogen from another polyunsaturated fatty acid chain and, thus, in turn produce another lipid-centered C-radical (L•) which can continue the cycle of lipid peroxidation. In this way, ROS attack on a membrane lipid bilayer (that contains polyunsaturated fatty acids) differs from ROS attack on other cellular molecules such as proteins, carbohydrates and nucleic acids. Whereas ROS attack on these other types of molecules will damage the molecule and likely stop them from performing their function, ROS attack on membrane polyunsaturates will damage the molecule (by converting it to a lipid hydroperoxide) and will also produce another reactive molecule that will in turn continue the oxidative damage to other molecules. Lipid peroxidation is a self-propagating autocatalytic process that will continue to produce several potent ROS until terminated (by either antioxidants or the combining of two free radicals—“pair-bonding” is rather old—even unpaired electrons do it!). The products of lipid peroxidation, such as lipid hydroperoxides, can also undergo fragmentation to produce a broad range of reactive intermediates (called propagators) that can modify proteins and DNA to produce “advanced lipoxidation endproducts” (ALEs) that no longer perform their respective functions. For more details see Hulbert et al. (2007).

Membrane lipid peroxidation should not be perceived solely as a “damage to membranes” scenario but also as a significant endogenous source of damage to other cellular macromolecules, such as proteins and DNA (including mutations). In this way membrane fatty acid composition, and especially the relative abundance of the different polyunsaturated fatty acids in membrane lipids, can have significant effects on the oxidative damage to many and varied cellular macromolecules and, thus, to cellular function. This adds a sort of positive feedback loop to the standard scheme that normally constitutes the “oxidative stress” theory of aging, which has been labeled the “membrane pacemaker” modification to the oxidative stress schema and is diagrammatically described in Fig. 2.

 

Metabolism and longevity: Is there a role for membrane fatty acids? | Integrative and Comparative Biology | Oxford Academic (oup.com)


Edited by Castiel, 16 May 2021 - 11:12 AM.

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#515 QuestforLife

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 01:01 PM

what does the small m in mM stand for? because I'd think it stands for milli, if it was millimoles, than 0.025Moles is 25mM, no?.


Yes that's right. 0.001g=1mg. Dividing by the molecular weight - the weight of a standardized number of molecules of that chemical - permits a comparison of the concentrations of different chemicals.

I'm not sure what I think about ROS resistant membranes versus mitochondrial ROS production, but if for the time being we lump them together then clearly lab mice have high ROS and long telomeres and humans have low ROS and short telomeres. It's like they have a lifejacket full of air but with lots of punctures, whereas our lifejacket isn't very full but isn't losing much air.

Blasco actually showed that she could predict different species lifespan based on the rate of shortening, with mice losing telomeres 100x faster than humans.

Interestingly average lifespan for different species was at about 75% of the starting TL and max lifespan was at about 50% of the starting TL.

https://doi.org/10.1...pnas.1902452116

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#516 Castiel

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 03:28 PM

Yes that's right. 0.001g=1mg. Dividing by the molecular weight - the weight of a standardized number of molecules of that chemical - permits a comparison of the concentrations of different chemicals.

I'm not sure what I think about ROS resistant membranes versus mitochondrial ROS production, but if for the time being we lump them together then clearly lab mice have high ROS and long telomeres and humans have low ROS and short telomeres. It's like they have a lifejacket full of air but with lots of punctures, whereas our lifejacket isn't very full but isn't losing much air.

Blasco actually showed that she could predict different species lifespan based on the rate of shortening, with mice losing telomeres 100x faster than humans.

Interestingly average lifespan for different species was at about 75% of the starting TL and max lifespan was at about 50% of the starting TL.

https://doi.org/10.1...pnas.1902452116

 

The rumor is the human mitochondrial membranes are even more peroxidation resistant than usual.    Membrane composition can vary in many places including the mitochondria.   Make mitochondria membranes more oxidation resistant and what seems like the primary producer of reactive molecules the self perpetuating autocatalytic oxidative reaction cycle with lipids is avoided.


Edited by Castiel, 16 May 2021 - 03:31 PM.

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#517 QuestforLife

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 04:09 PM

The rumor is the human mitochondrial membranes are even more peroxidation resistant than usual. Membrane composition can vary in many places including the mitochondria. Make mitochondria membranes more oxidation resistant and what seems like the primary producer of reactive molecules the self perpetuating autocatalytic oxidative reaction cycle with lipids is avoided.

If that's true you might be able to improve the membrane's resistance to oxidation by avoiding all polyunsaturated fats. Mitochondrial membrane is mostly mono unsaturated, I believe. If you eat fully saturated, it will be converted as required to monounsaturated, as required.

In terms of antioxidants they have to be right where the ROS occurs to be of much use. Or atleast nearby in the membrane to stop a chain of destruction. That is probably why a resistant mitochondrial membrane or even better, just reducing ROS production, is a better option than more antioxidants.

But we are getting distracted. Mitochondria can be recycled and replaced. It is the nucleus that really needs to be protected from DNA damage. And the part of the DNA that is most sensitive to ROS is the telomeres.

Edited by QuestforLife, 16 May 2021 - 04:09 PM.


#518 Castiel

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 08:14 PM

If that's true you might be able to improve the membrane's resistance to oxidation by avoiding all polyunsaturated fats. Mitochondrial membrane is mostly mono unsaturated, I believe. If you eat fully saturated, it will be converted as required to monounsaturated, as required.

In terms of antioxidants they have to be right where the ROS occurs to be of much use. Or atleast nearby in the membrane to stop a chain of destruction. That is probably why a resistant mitochondrial membrane or even better, just reducing ROS production, is a better option than more antioxidants.

But we are getting distracted. Mitochondria can be recycled and replaced. It is the nucleus that really needs to be protected from DNA damage. And the part of the DNA that is most sensitive to ROS is the telomeres.

 

Not sure trying to change it with diet would be a good idea, membrane composition is carefully controlled.  Unless you had severe deficit, which could come with some side effects, you won't be able to budge it much.     In general the body will use the right amount of polyunsaturated and convert the rest to more stable versions, iirc.

 

As for Astaxanthin

 

 

• 8000 times more potent than Vitamin C • 800 times more potent than CoQ10 • 550 times more potent than Green Tea Catechins • 75 times more potent than Alpha Lipoic Acid (Nishida, et al, 2007) 550 times stronger than Vitamin E • 11 times stronger than beta-carotene • 2.75 times stronger than lutein (Shimidzu, et al, 1996)

 

 

“Mitochondria combine the production of energy with an efficient chain of reduction-oxidation (redox) reactions but also with the unavoidable production of reactive oxygen species. Oxidative stress leading to mitochondrial dysfunction is a critical factor in many diseases, such as cancer and neurodegeneration and lifestyle-related diseases. Effective antioxidants thus offer great therapeutic promise…Astaxanthin at nanomolar concentrations was effective in maintaining mitochondria in a reduced state. Additionally, Astaxanthin improved the ability of mitochondria to remain in a reduced state under oxidative challenge. Taken together, these results suggest that Astaxanthin is effective in improving mitochondrial function through retaining mitochondria in a reduced state” (Wolf, et al, 2009).

https://www.hpcimedi...Astaxanthin.pdf

 

As for reference on mitochondria membrane oxidation

 

 

Mitochondrial membrane peroxidizability index is inversely related to maximum life span in mammals

 

The oxidative stress theory of aging predicts a low degree of fatty acid unsaturation in tissues of longevous animals, because membrane lipids increase their sensitivity to oxidative damage as a function of their unsaturation. Accordingly, the fatty acids analyses of liver mitochondria from eight mammals, ranging in maximum life span from 3.5 to 46 years, show that the total number of double bonds and the peroxidizability index are negatively correlated with maximum life span (r = −0. 88, P < 0.003; r = −0.87, P < 0.004, respectively). This is not due to a low content of unsaturated fatty acids in longevous animals, but mainly to a redistribution between kinds of the polyunsaturated n–3 fatty acids series, shifting from the highly unsaturated docosahexaenoic acid (r = −0.89, P < 0.003) to the less unsaturated linolenic acid (r = 0.97, P < 0.0001). This redistribution pattern strongly suggests the presence of a constitutively low Δ6-desaturase activity in longevous animals (r = −0.96, P < 0.0001). Thus, it may be proposed that, during evolution, a low degree of fatty acid unsaturation in liver mitochondria may have been selected in longevous mammals in order to protect the tissues against oxidative damage, while maintaining an appropriate environment for membrane function.

 

 

 

This would also protect other molecules against lipid peroxidation-derived damage. In line with this, it has been previously described that liver mitochondria from humans (maximum life span: 122 years) and pigeons (maximum life span: 35 years) have a lower degree of fatty acid unsaturation and a lower sensitivity to lipid peroxidation that rat liver mitochondria (13). This fact also extends to total lipids of long-versus short-lived animal species (R. Pamplona and G. Barja, unpublished results). Finally, a negative correlation between sensitivity to lipid autoxidation and maximum life span in brain and kidney homogenates from different mammalian species has been described by other authors

https://www.scienced...022227520324974

 

 

I wouldn't worry much about diet polyunsaturates, just keeping the omega 3 o omega 6 ratio good is good.   What needs to be avoided is highly oxidized polyunsaturated fats, which I've heard have become ubiquitous in most USA restaurants due to a switch in fat from saturated to polyunsaturated which isn't as stable and bad things happen with their extended use in restaurant cooking.  As said careful control of membrane composition means it is not necessary to do much more than monitor omega 3 to omega 6 ratio, though extreme dietary change might be able to affect it somewhat.

 

As for dna and nucleus, recommend you check on the articles on membrane pacemaker theory of aging, once the autocatalytic chain oxidative chain reaction starts it is basically a positive feedback cycle that starts damaging everything else iirc I think the molecules start moving about and damaging all other components of the cell.    Would need to check what they were, but I think there may have been reactive compounds created that can move both through lipid and aqueous environments thus trespassing cellular barriers and propagating damage if not controlled.


Edited by Castiel, 16 May 2021 - 08:27 PM.


#519 Castiel

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 08:32 PM

Found you the relevant reference and the big problem with the oxidation of lipids.    Which is why I take both tocotrienols + astaxanthin to protect the membranes.

 

 

 

The hydroperoxides and endoperoxides, generated by lipid peroxidation, can undergo fragmentation to produce a broad range of reactive intermediates, such as alkanals, alkenals, hydroxyalkenals, glyoxal, and malondialdehyde (MDA; Ref. 95) (see Fig. 2). These carbonyl compounds (collectively described as “propagators” in Fig. 2) have unique properties contrasted with free radicals. For instance, compared with ROS or RNS, reactive aldehydes have a much longer half-life (i.e., minutes instead of the microseconds-nanoseconds characteristic of most free radicals). Furthermore, the noncharged structure of aldehydes allows them to migrate with relative ease through hydrophobic membranes and hydrophilic cytosolic media, thereby extending the migration distance far from the production site. On the basis of these features alone, these carbonyl compounds can be more destructive than free radicals and may have far-reaching damaging effects on target sites both within and outside membranes. These carbonyl compounds, and possibly their peroxide precursors, react with nucleophilic groups in proteins, resulting in their modification. The modification of amino acids in proteins by products of lipid peroxidation results in the chemical, nonenzymatic formation of a variety of adducts and cross-links collectively named advanced lipoxidation end products (ALEs; Ref. 353). These can be useful indicators of lipoxidative stress in vivo (Fig. 2).

Metabolism and longevity: Is there a role for membrane fatty acids?

Metabolism and longevity: Is there a role for membrane fatty acids? | Integrative and Comparative Biology | Oxford Academic (oup.com)

 

 

And from the other article mentioned previously

 

 

Lipid peroxidation-derived end products (“enals”) can also react at the exocyclic amino groups of deoxyguanosine, deoxyadenosine, and deoxycytosine to form various alkylated products (218). Some common enals that cause DNA damage (analogously to protein damage) are MDA, acrolein, and 4-hydroxynonenal, among others. The most common adducts arising from enals are exocyclic adducts such as etheno adducts, and malondialdehyde-deoxyguanosine (M1dG). These DNA damage markers are mutagenic and carcinogenic, with powerful effects on signal transduction pathways (217).

Life and Death: Metabolic Rate, Membrane Composition, and Life Span of Animals | Physiological Reviews (physiology.org)

 

As you can see these compounds can travel very far and damage all cellular components including DNA.

 

edit:  Both articles above are a very good read, and cover the nature of membrane peroxidation index, and the membrane pacemaker, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Of note is that A.Islandica, a species of which some groups appear to show negligible senescence also follows the trend of lower peroxidation index.   Though it seems it can't explain lifespan differences between different groups of A.Islandica.   Would need to look at study deeper to see what is happening, perhaps predators, fishermen, or something, haven't read study yet just abstract.

 

 

 

The bivalve Arctica islandica, the longest-lived non-colonial animal with a record lifespan of 507 years, possesses a lower mitochondrial peroxidation index (PI) and reduced H2O2 efflux linked to complexes I and III activities than related species. Taking advantage of the wide variation in maximum reported longevities (MRL) among 6 European populations (36–507 years), we examined whether these two mitochondrial properties could explain differences in longevity. We report no relationship between membrane PI and MRL in populations of A. islandica, as well as a lack of intraspecific relationship between ETS complex activities and MRL.

 

 

The strongest association between a physiological trait and divergences in species lifespan has so far been observed for membrane structure. The early evidence of a strong negative correlation between membrane PI and increasing maximum lifespan was reported in vertebrates, specifically in mammals and birds (Hulbert et al., 2007). Later, Munro and Blier (2012) took advantage of the extreme longevity of Arctica islandica (the ocean quahog) to corroborate the same association in five species of bivalves (Munro and Blier, 2012). Among these species, the ocean quahog A. islandica is the longest-lived non-colonial animal with a record lifespan of 507 years in the North Atlantic (Butler et al., 2013). Munro and Blier (2012) compared gill membrane lipid composition of A. islandica with four shorter-lived bivalve species from the shelf areas off the coasts of eastern Canada belonging to the same subclass (heterochonchia), with lifespans ranging from 28 to 106 years. Membrane PI decreased exponentially with increasing longevity, in part due to a lower DHA (docosahexaenoic acid, 22:6, n-3) content in mitochondrial membranes of longer-lived species. Other molecules protecting bivalve cellular membranes against ROS attack include plasmalogens [dimethylacetals (DMA) in their methylated form] and non-methylene interrupted fatty acids (NMI). Plasmalogens act as a ROS scavenger, whereas NMI reduce susceptibility to peroxidation (Engelmann, 2004Barnathan, 2009) while maintaining fluidity of the membrane. Although no consistent relationship was observed between NMI abundance and MRL, A. islandica had higher NMI and plasmalogen levels than the shortest-lived species Mya arenaria. The association previously observed in vertebrates therefore, appears to be conserved in a wide range of animal taxa and tighter, at least in bivalves, for mitochondria.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6676799/

 

edit2 :

Given Astaxanthin is the most powerful of all natural antioxidants and embeds in membranes, even protecting mitochondria, it suggests that if very high doses are tolerable assuming no toxicity it could have interesting effects.     We do know that some animals eat enough to basically change the color of their flesh.    But without research this is not something I would recommend.   I think researchers need to see if there is any toxicity or adverse effects at higher doses and what are the upper limits of possible astaxanthin intake in rodent studies.

 

If megadose didn't interfere with bodies free radical chemical signals, and somehow was safe and nontoxic(currently it is unknown), but in theory megadose could essentially halt lipid oxidation in its entirety.   But as said this would have to be tested, perhaps its toxic in megadose or has some severe adverse effect.   But if by some miracle it was safe, this could give negligible senescence membranes to other organisms.   But as said some carotenoids are toxic in high dose, so research is needed to assess safety and upper limit.


Edited by Castiel, 16 May 2021 - 09:14 PM.

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#520 Castiel

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 09:35 PM

Another link on melatonin as potential telomere lengthening compound.   Not sure if this one had been mentioned prior

 

 

 

Melatonin has already been identified as a major component in anti-aging as it promotes anti-inflammatory/antioxidant gene expression by stimulating transcription factor NrF2 and suppressing CBP/P300 HAT activity.5 Research has suggested that melatonin (converted from serotonin) may play a causal role in telomerase activity. A recent study indicated that although telomerase function was higher in young rats compared to older rats, both groups of rats had increased telomerase function with melatonin supplementation.1 Another study indicated that lifestyle changes-such as social support, diet, exercise and mind/body connection—increased telomerase activity in adults over a five year period compared to a control group. 4

the references of that link:

Akbulut, K. G., Gonul, B., &Akbulut, H. (2009). The role of melatonin on gastric mucosal cell proliferation and telomerase activity in aging. Journal of pineal research47(4), 308-312.

Lu, W., Zhang, Y., Liu, D., Songyang, Z., & Wan, M. (2012).Telomeres-structure, function, and regulation. Experimental Cell Research.

Miquel, J. (2009). An update of the oxidation-inflammation theory of aging: the involvement of the immune system in oxi-inflamm-aging. Current pharmaceutical design15(26), 3003-3026.

Ornish, D., Lin, J., Chan, J. M., Epel, E., Kemp, C., Weidner, G. & Blackburn, E. H. (2013). Effect of comprehensive lifestyle changes on telomerase activity and telomere length in men with biopsy-proven low-risk prostate cancer: 5-year follow-up of a descriptive pilot study. The lancet oncology14(11), 1112-1120.

 

https://sanescohealt...-to-slow-aging/

 

 

 

Results of a clinical trial showed that 3mg melatonin given orally each night at bedtime for 3 months to AMD patients reduced pathologic macular changes. I hypothesize that melatonin exerts additional benefit through down-regulating hTERT (catalytic subunit if telomerase) expression and stimulated telomerase activity in RPE, which subsequently helps to prevent or treat AMD.

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/20884126/

 

 


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#521 Castiel

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 11:23 PM

More info on astaxanthin

 

Natural Astaxanthin is: • 14X stronger than Vitamin E • 18X stronger than Pycnogenol® • 21X stronger than Synthetic Astaxanthin • 54X stronger than beta-carotene

 

Qualitative Differences Between Astaxanthin and Other Antioxidants: Astaxanthin is not only an incredibly powerful antioxidant, it is also a unique antioxidant in terms of how it works in our bodies. There are four distinct ways we can see these qualitative properties. While each of these independently would be a critical differentiator from other antioxidants in terms of health value and efficacy, the four of these taken together form a critical mass of evidence of Astaxanthin’s superior qualitative antioxidant properties. Each of these on its own is very impressive, and while hard to pick the most important or least, below we list these qualitative differences in the order of their relative importance in our opinion:

 

1. Spans the cell membrane to protect the entire cell: A general rule of antioxidants is: “Lipid soluble antioxidants protect the lipid (oil) soluble part of our cells, and water soluble antioxidants protect the water soluble part of our cells.” So when we ingest Vitamin C which is water soluble, its antioxidant properties are useful in one part of our cells, and when we ingest Vitamin E which is oil soluble, its antioxidant properties are useful in the remaining part of our cells. The shape of the Astaxanthin molecule allows it to span the cell membrane and have one end of the molecule in the lipid soluble part of the cell and the other end of the molecule in the water soluble part of the cell. This gives Astaxanthin the distinctive characteristic of being able to protect the entire cell. And Astaxanthin has been found capable of travelling throughout the entire body, into the bloodstream, muscle tissue, skin, as well as various critical organs (Capelli and Cysewski, 2014). This double feature of being able to get throughout the body and being able to protect the entire cell makes Astaxanthin a super-effective antioxidant and antiinflammatory for humans.

 

2. Never a Pro-Oxidant: A lot of very good antioxidants can, under certain conditions, turn into oxidants and start harming our cells. This is what happened in the famous “Finnish Smokers Study” on beta-carotene published in the prestigious “New England Journal of Medicine” in 1994. This study tested consumption of synthetic beta-carotene, which (like Synthetic Astaxanthin) is completely different from the natural form. Heavy smokers (who were smoking on average three packs of cigarettes each day) were supplemented with synthetic beta-carotene and found after time to have a slightly higher incidence of cancer. This was amazing to all involved since dozens of epidemiological studies as well as pre-clinical research showed that beta-carotene has cancer-preventative properties (Moorhead, et al, 2005). What was happening was that the beta-carotene was turning into a pro-oxidant in the smokers’ bodies because smoking depleted their Vitamin C levels. In the absence of Vitamin C, the beta-carotene molecules had no supporting antioxidants to pass off the supercharged free radicals caused by smoking, so they “changed teams” and became oxidants. This caused additional cellular damage, which in turn increased the incidence of cancer (Heinonen and Albanes, 1994). “Without Vitamin C, beta-carotene can catch the destructive energy of a free radical and itself become a damaging molecule. In this situation, beta-carotene has entered a ‘pro-oxidant’ state. If Vitamin C is available this pro-oxidant state will quickly be converted back to an antioxidant state without damage to cells” (Malila, et al, 2006; Capelli and Cysewski, 2014). Many other excellent antioxidants besides beta-carotene can become pro-oxidants under certain conditions. For example, well-known vitamin antioxidants such as Vitamins C & E, zinc, and even carotenoid antioxidants such as lycopene and zeaxanthin can all become pro-oxidants (Martin, et al, 1999). Fortunately, Astaxanthin can never become a pro-oxidant and cause damage to our cells (Beutner, et al, 2000).

 

3. Crosses the blood-brain barrier and blood-retinal barrier: A lot of very good antioxidants cannot help protect our eyes and brains. Even carotenoid antioxidants that are closely related to Astaxanthin such as beta-carotene and lycopene cannot get through these barriers that are present to protect our most vital organs from foreign matter and contaminants. Since our brains are the control center for everything we think and do, an antioxidant that cannot protect the brain seems to be of little value to us. Fortunately, Astaxanthin can get through the blood-brain barrier to protect our brains. When it reaches our brains, it can then travel through the blood-retinal barrier to help protect our eyes. Some of the earliest research on Astaxanthin back in the 1940’s and 1950’s showed Astaxanthin’s ability to get into the brains and eyes of rats (Grangaud, 1951; Massonet, 1958); meanwhile, many human clinical studies have been completed over the last several years to confirm Astaxanthin’s diverse health benefits for the eyes and brain (Capelli and Cysewski, 2014). And once present in the eyes and brain, it is not only Astaxanthin’s antioxidant activity that is working prophylactically, but also its broad spectrum anti-inflammatory properties are providing additional protection to these vital organs. This one-two punch against oxidation and inflammation is exactly what brains and eyes need to stay healthy and function well.

 

4. Bonds with muscle tissue: As we mentioned above, Astaxanthin can get throughout the entire body and into all the critical organs. It can also bond with muscle tissue to protect muscles from increased levels of oxidation and inflammation and keep the muscles functioning smoothly

https://www.hpcimedi...Astaxanthin.pdf


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#522 Castiel

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 11:53 PM

 

Astaxanthin is a promising compound for human health and nutrition applications, but more information and research is needed. Different producers recommend different astaxanthin dosage levels for various health conditions. Because there have not been enough studies to determine the ideal dose of astaxanthin, there are no standardized dosage recommendations. Doses of up to 50 mg/d of astaxanthin have been tolerated (the exact toxicity and upper limit is also not known).

Some studies have suggested the lowest “no observed adverse effect” level is 40 mg/kg bodyweight/d. An acceptable daily intake (ADI) is conventionally derived using a 100-fold safety factor applied to the lowest without observed adverse effects. This equates to an ADI intake of 0.4 mg/kg bodyweight/d for a person.

https://www.naturalp...en-long-studied

 

 

Researched a bit more and preliminary research seems promising, but further research is needed.  On optimal dose, benefits if any at higher dose, long term safety of significantly higher doses.



#523 QuestforLife

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Posted 17 May 2021 - 09:52 AM

Castiel, the study you reference on beta-carotene is a case in point why we need to be careful with antioxidants.

 

 

The effect of β-carotene on the mortality of male smokers is modified by smoking and by vitamins C and E: evidence against a uniform effect of nutrient

...harm from β-carotene was not uniform within the study population. Interactions between β-carotene and vitamins C and E were seen only within a subgroup of 7 % of the ATBC participants, and therefore should not be extrapolated to the general population. Heterogeneity of the β-carotene effect on mortality challenges the validity of previous meta-analyses that have pooled many diverse antioxidants for one single estimate of effect using the assumption that a single estimate equally applies to all antioxidants and all people.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC7082716/

 

 

For all we know astaxanthin, an amazing antioxidant by many measures, when raised to unusual levels in the body may also cause unwanted knock on effects on other antioxidant levels. For example, if we supplement astaxanthin do we also have to also supplement zeaxanthin to make sure the latter, which is most important in the eye, is not supplanted?

 

For these reasons I will keep a close watching brief on astaxanthin, but if I do use it, it will be in very low quantities until we know more. Similarly, I only take beta-carotene in food. 

 

As I wrote in a previous post, melatonin is likely the best antioxidant for telomeres, and I'm glad you mention it.

 

The website you mention has a very interesting reference on melatonin.

 

 

  The role of melatonin on gastric mucosal cell proliferation and telomerase activity in ageing

 

Melatonin significantly inhibited the gastric mucosal proliferation rate of both young and aged rats. Telomerase activity was significantly reduced in aged rats compared to young animals. Melatonin significantly increased the telomerase activity of both young and aged rats. The MDA levels of gastric mucosa in the aged rats were significantly higher than those of the younger rats. On the contrary, the GSH levels of gastric mucosa of the aged group were significantly lower than that of the young rats. While melatonin had no effect on GSH levels of either young or aged rats, it significantly decreased the MDA levels in aged animals. In conclusion, melatonin may delay the ageing of gastric mucosa by inhibiting the replicative cellular senescence via its stimulatory effect on telomerase activity and suppressive effect on cellular proliferation and lipid peroxidation.

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/19796046/

 

 

 

I've highlighted some interesting points:

 

  • Melatonin increased telomerase whilst decreasing proliferation (in gastric cells); this shows telomerase does not always result in more cell division - more likely it restores proper cell division rates
  • Melatonin decreased oxidative damage (more on this in my link above,) without increasing glutathione. This suggests you could also increase glutathione separately, if you wished.

I use an epitalon nasal spray first thing in the AM to increase melatonin (if it is required by my body). 

 

On the subject of glutathione, this is not new, but this study has gained more attention than previous ones:

 

 

Glycine and N-acetylcysteine (GlyNAC) supplementation in older adults improves glutathione deficiency, oxidative

stress, mitochondrial dysfunction, inflammation, insulin resistance, endothelial dysfunction, genotoxicity, muscle strength, and cognition: Results of a pilot clinical trial

 

This study found that compared to healthy young adults, older humans have severely elevated oxidative stress, glutathione deficiency, impaired mitochon-drial function, increased inflammation, insulin resistance and endothelial dys-function, and lower muscle strength and mental cognition. We tested and found that supplementing GlyNAC (combination of glycine and N-acetylcysteine) improved all these defects, and that stopping GlyNAC resulted in a loss of ben-efits. The results of this trial suggests that GlyNAC supplementation could be a simple, safe and effective nutritional strategy to boost cellular defenses to protect against oxidative stress, correct mitochondrial defects to improve energy avail-

ability, increase muscle strength and cognition, and thereby promote healthy aging in humans.

https://onlinelibrar...0.1002/ctm2.372

 

 

If you think you need it, take glycine and NAC and let them combine in the body to produce glutathione in the body, as required. This ties back in with what I said previously about high does glycine causing the Vitamin C in my urine to skyrocket (without supplementation). 

 

 


Edited by QuestforLife, 17 May 2021 - 09:55 AM.

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#524 Castiel

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Posted 17 May 2021 - 06:40 PM

Castiel, the study you reference on beta-carotene is a case in point why we need to be careful with antioxidants.

 

 

 

 

For all we know astaxanthin, an amazing antioxidant by many measures, when raised to unusual levels in the body may also cause unwanted knock on effects on other antioxidant levels. For example, if we supplement astaxanthin do we also have to also supplement zeaxanthin to make sure the latter, which is most important in the eye, is not supplanted?

 

For these reasons I will keep a close watching brief on astaxanthin, but if I do use it, it will be in very low quantities until we know more. Similarly, I only take beta-carotene in food. 

 

As I wrote in a previous post, melatonin is likely the best antioxidant for telomeres, and I'm glad you mention it.

 

The website you mention has a very interesting reference on melatonin.

 

 

 

 

 

I've highlighted some interesting points:

 

  • Melatonin increased telomerase whilst decreasing proliferation (in gastric cells); this shows telomerase does not always result in more cell division - more likely it restores proper cell division rates
  • Melatonin decreased oxidative damage (more on this in my link above,) without increasing glutathione. This suggests you could also increase glutathione separately, if you wished.

I use an epitalon nasal spray first thing in the AM to increase melatonin (if it is required by my body). 

 

On the subject of glutathione, this is not new, but this study has gained more attention than previous ones:

 

 

 

 

If you think you need it, take glycine and NAC and let them combine in the body to produce glutathione in the body, as required. This ties back in with what I said previously about high does glycine causing the Vitamin C in my urine to skyrocket (without supplementation). 

 

 

Another curious thing is that like resveratrol melatonin appears to have the opposite effect on cancer cells.  In cancer cells it inhibits telomerase

 

 

Melatonin treatment caused a significant reduction in the weight of tumors and reduced metastases when compared with the control group. As indicated by the Telomerase Repeats Amplification Protocol (TRAP) assay, a significant decrease in telomerase activity was observed in the group treated with melatonin.-https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/12932205/

 

Now what would be interesting to know is what is the optimal melatonin intake, it decreases with age.   Usually the recommendation is to take 300mcg to 500mcg, as that leads to natural levels.   But supplements also come in 3mg and 5mg and 10mg doses.    Would higher be better?  Not always, so I need to do some research to look at optimal dosage.

 

As for astaxanthin as you say it could have some adverse effects at very high doses.  More research is needed.  If you have time recommend you check out the two articles on lipid peroxidation and species lifespan, they make a very strong case for the importance of such.

 

Remember one of the ways the negligible senescence animals achieve significantly more resistant membranes is with membrane bound antioxidants, so this looks like a promising avenue of research.

 

edit:

BTW very excited by the finding that Creactive is strongest blood correlate to two of the top epigenetic clocks phenoage and grimage.   Very easy to get such tested, and do adjustments to manipulate it.    In theory if you can dramatically lower Creactive to near zero that could mean you're also achieving epigenetic rejuvenation, but that hypothesis needs to be tested.


Edited by Castiel, 17 May 2021 - 06:46 PM.

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#525 QuestforLife

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Posted 18 May 2021 - 09:43 AM



Another curious thing is that like resveratrol melatonin appears to have the opposite effect on cancer cells.  In cancer cells it inhibits telomerase

 

Now what would be interesting to know is what is the optimal melatonin intake, it decreases with age.   Usually the recommendation is to take 300mcg to 500mcg, as that leads to natural levels.   But supplements also come in 3mg and 5mg and 10mg doses.    Would higher be better?  Not always, so I need to do some research to look at optimal dosage....

 

 

 

Melatonin falls in the blood, but not much until your 60s,when the drop becomes dramatic.

 

 

AGING AND THE CIRCADIAN RHYTHM OF MELATONIN: A CROSS-SECTIONAL STUDY OF CHINESE SUBJECTS 30–110 YR OF AGE

 

http://dx.doi.org/10...1/CBI-120015958

 

In the present cross-sectional study, we documented serum melatonin concentrations at two time points, 02:00 and 08:00h, in 144 persons aged 30–110 yr and found a significant age-related decline. It began around the age of 60 and reached a very significantly lower level in subjects in their 70s and over 80 yr of age ðP , 0:01; when compared with age ,60 yr).

 

 

See Figure of melatonin levels attached.

 

 

... BTW very excited by the finding that Creactive is strongest blood correlate to two of the top epigenetic clocks phenoage and grimage.   Very easy to get such tested, and do adjustments to manipulate it.    In theory if you can dramatically lower Creactive to near zero that could mean you're also achieving epigenetic rejuvenation, but that hypothesis needs to be tested.

 

 

C-reactive protein is a reasonably weighted blood marker in the PhenoAge measure. I'm normally in the 0.8-1mg/L range.  According to the PhenoAge Calculator, I could improve my PhenoAge by 2.5 years if I got it down to 0.1mg/L. I am getting a full blood panel soon, so it will be interesting if AKG, which reduced my methyation age by over 6 years, has improved any of these blood markers. 

 

Incidentally Red Cell Distribution Width (RDW) has the greatest scope for improvement in the PhenoAge calculation, atleast based on me improving my current value. I could potentially gain over 5 years if I got that down to the minimum of its normal range.  

Attached Thumbnails

  • melatonin_pg per ml.png

Edited by QuestforLife, 18 May 2021 - 09:44 AM.

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#526 Castiel

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Posted 18 May 2021 - 12:39 PM

Melatonin falls in the blood, but not much until your 60s,when the drop becomes dramatic.

 

 

 

 

See Figure of melatonin levels attached.

 

 

 

 

C-reactive protein is a reasonably weighted blood marker in the PhenoAge measure. I'm normally in the 0.8-1mg/L range.  According to the PhenoAge Calculator, I could improve my PhenoAge by 2.5 years if I got it down to 0.1mg/L. I am getting a full blood panel soon, so it will be interesting if AKG, which reduced my methyation age by over 6 years, has improved any of these blood markers. 

 

Incidentally Red Cell Distribution Width (RDW) has the greatest scope for improvement in the PhenoAge calculation, atleast based on me improving my current value. I could potentially gain over 5 years if I got that down to the minimum of its normal range.  

 

Have you tried aging.ai online free aging clock?   Aging.ai 3.0 only requires basic blood work blood cell and cholesterol info,  it is good in that it doesn't take age as input.(had to use a few free online calculators to convert parameters into the correct units.)    Phenoage takes age as imput and max possible reduction is said to be 20 years.   That is if you're 80 it won't give an age lower than 60, if I'm not mistaken.   Aging.ai doesn't take age into account but is correlated with all cause mortality which I think increases with aging.    Given that you're not putting age into it there is no limit to how low your age can go, I would think, I mean you can be 90 but if you somehow had 26 year old blood parameters, it would predict age of 26.

 

For more powerful interventions, I think you need something like that.  In my opinion mortality which Gompertz law says increases exponentially with age, is a more relevant stat to track than chronological age.   If a group can achieve significant deviation from Gompertz law that likely means significant effect is being obtained in the aging process itself.


Edited by Castiel, 18 May 2021 - 12:40 PM.


#527 QuestforLife

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Posted 18 May 2021 - 02:06 PM

Have you tried aging.ai online free aging clock?   Aging.ai 3.0 only requires basic blood work blood cell and cholesterol info,  it is good in that it doesn't take age as input.(had to use a few free online calculators to convert parameters into the correct units.)    Phenoage takes age as imput and max possible reduction is said to be 20 years.  

 

 

If I moved every blood test in as far as possible in the right direction, then PhenoAge says I'm 9 (I'm 42)! So in my case I can move it 33 years. But I take your point, having chronological age as an input is not ideal. 

 

When I get my new blood test done, I also feed it into Aging.ai and report back what I get.



#528 Castiel

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Posted 18 May 2021 - 05:14 PM

If I moved every blood test in as far as possible in the right direction, then PhenoAge says I'm 9 (I'm 42)! So in my case I can move it 33 years. But I take your point, having chronological age as an input is not ideal. 

 

When I get my new blood test done, I also feed it into Aging.ai and report back what I get.

I think aging.ai lowest age might be 20 as that was supposedly lowest it was trained on.   Don't think it can give lower than that.

 

I think youtuber Michael Lustgarten Ph. D has shown his phenoage, and it is significantly lower than his actual age.   I think you said you shared your phenoage here at longecity, do you have a link to that post?

 

Hey if you still got those fictitious optimal blood values, you could try inputting them into aging.ai and see what lowest age they give.


Edited by Castiel, 18 May 2021 - 05:21 PM.


#529 Castiel

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Posted 19 May 2021 - 03:33 PM

Melatonin falls in the blood, but not much until your 60s,when the drop becomes dramatic.

 

 

 

 

See Figure of melatonin levels attached.

 

 

 

 

C-reactive protein is a reasonably weighted blood marker in the PhenoAge measure. I'm normally in the 0.8-1mg/L range.  According to the PhenoAge Calculator, I could improve my PhenoAge by 2.5 years if I got it down to 0.1mg/L. I am getting a full blood panel soon, so it will be interesting if AKG, which reduced my methyation age by over 6 years, has improved any of these blood markers. 

 

Incidentally Red Cell Distribution Width (RDW) has the greatest scope for improvement in the PhenoAge calculation, atleast based on me improving my current value. I could potentially gain over 5 years if I got that down to the minimum of its normal range.  

what unit is your melation graph?   And how does it compare to blood levels with supplemental melatonin?

 

 

 

Prior to three months of age there is little melatonin (MLT) secretion in humans. MLT production then commences, becomes circadian, and reaches its highest nocturnal blood levels between the ages of one to three years. During the remainder of childhood, nocturnal peak levels drop progressively by 80%. In adults, these levels show an additional drop of some 10%, mainly during senescence. 

https://www.scienced...531556598000540

 

interesting stat on death rate by age

https://www.statista...-sex-in-the-us/

 

Lowest death rate is at the age of 12, iirc.(think I heard Bill Sardi mention that but could be wrong.)   Wonder what the melatonin levels are at that age, and if that truly is lowest mortality age.    But it does seem children do have 500% higher melatonin than normal adults for a period of their lives.

 

edit quick research and found an interesting resource

https://www.benbest..../melatonin.html

edit 2

https://www.research..._fig1_264091265

 

Attached a graph from this source for melatonin supplementation vs blood levels.

Extrapolating Seems around 300mcg to 500mcg(depending on source of childhood levels) would yield blood levels similar to human's natural highest at age of lowest mortality.  Not sure if this is impacting mortality or not.

Attached Thumbnails

  • mela_age.jpg
  • peaks.jpg
  • Comparison-of-the-melatonin-plasma-concentration-pg-ml-after-oral-administration-of-1.png

Edited by Castiel, 19 May 2021 - 04:15 PM.

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#530 QuestforLife

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Posted 19 May 2021 - 04:41 PM

what unit is your melation graph? And how does it compare to blood levels with supplemental melatonin?


Attached a graph from this source for melatonin supplementation vs blood levels.
Extrapolating Seems around 300mcg to 500mcg(depending on source of childhood levels) would yield blood levels similar to human's natural highest at age of lowest mortality. Not sure if this is impacting mortality or not.


Same, pg/ml

The levels you are getting via supplementation seem insanely high. Unless you're having sleep issues I wouldn't want to mess with those kind of levels.
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#531 Castiel

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Posted 19 May 2021 - 05:56 PM

Same, pg/ml

The levels you are getting via supplementation seem insanely high. Unless you're having sleep issues I wouldn't want to mess with those kind of levels.

 

1mg powder seems to generate about 500 level.   That suggests that 500microgram or 300microgram might generate notably less, perhaps half or less of that.   Some sources say young humans have around 180 level, so it'd probably be a tiny bit higher than that. But I could be wrong, would need to investigate further to see.

 

Note sources vary some claim 180 is human peak, others claim it is around 130.   But in any case it has a very short half life and is rapidly cleared from the body.

 

Some highlights from some research on melatonin

 

A very large body of evidence indicates that melatonin is a major scavenger of both oxygen- and nitrogen-based reactive molecules (49–53), including ONOO−(54–56). Melatonin has scavenging actions at both physiologic and pharmacologic concentrations. Not only melatonin but also several of its metabolites can detoxify free radicals and their derivatives (57–59). Studies also reveal that melatonin eliminates the decomposition products of ONOO−, including OH•, NO2•, and the carbonate radical (CO3•−) in the presence of physiological carbon dioxide concentrations (60–62). Melatonin also supports several intracellular enzymatic antioxidant enzymes, including SOD and glutathione peroxidase (GSH-Px) (63,64). Moreover, melatonin induces the activity of γ-glutamylcysteine synthetase, thereby stimulating the production of another intracellular antioxidant, glutathione (GSH) (65). A number of studies have shown that melatonin is significantly better than the classic antioxidants in resisting free-radical–based molecular destruction. In these in vivo studies, melatonin was more effective than vitamin E (66–68), β-carotene (69), and vitamin C (69–71), and superior to garlic oil (72). Beneficial antioxidant effects of melatonin have been recently shown in clinical settings for several chronic diseases, including patients with rheumatoid arthritis (73), elderly patients with primary essential hypertension (74), and females with infertility (75).

 
Several antioxidants reportedly preserve the activities of SOD and/or GSH-Px. These effects are indirect, however, owing to their ability to scavenge free radicals and protect the protein from damage. Melatonin, on the other hand, possesses genomic actions and regulates the expression of several genes, including those for SOD and GSH-Px. Melatonin influences both antioxidant enzyme activity and cellular mRNA levels for these enzymes under physiological conditions and during elevated oxidative stress (63), possibly through epigenetic mechanisms (76–78). The occurrence of these two features in a single molecule is unique for an antioxidant, and both actions protect against pathologically-generated free radicals.
 
 
We recently reviewed the mechanisms by which melatonin improves mitochondrial respiration and increases ATP synthesis under physiological and poisonous conditions (80). Consequently, the antioxidant and free-radical–scavenging capacities of melatonin protect proteins of the [mitochondria] ETC[electron transport chain] and mtDNA from ROS/RNS-induced oxidative damage. This protective effect limits the loss of intramitochondrial GSH, improves ETC activity, and reduces mtDNA damage. Melatonin’s actions at the mtDNA level also increase the expression of complex IV and the activity of complex I and complex IV of the ETC (81).
Another advantage of melatonin over classical antioxidants is its lack of prooxidative actions. All classical antioxidants are potential electron donors and they exhibit both reduced and oxidized forms. Once they donate an electron to neutralize a free radical, they are transformed from a reduced to an oxidized state. Usually, the oxidized form will be regenerated to the reduced state through the mechanism known as redox reaction or recycling. In this pathway, the recycling of vitamin C or vitamin E occurs at the expense of GSH. In many cases, however, GSH is a better antioxidant than either vitamin C or vitamin E (103). Because these antioxidants are electron donors and exhibit redox reactions, their oxidized forms also can oxidize other molecules. Therefore, classical antioxidants are prooxidants. Melatonin sacrifices itself and does not participate in redox cycling after scavenging free radicals. As previously mentioned, melatonin not only does not consume cellular GSH, it also preserves or even increases the content of GSH in tissues. Thus, melatonin is classified as a suicidal or terminal antioxidant (104).
 

 

 

Melatonin or N-acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine is a highly conserved indoleamine molecule found in all microorganisms (Hardeland and Fuhrberg, 1996), plants and animals (Reiter et al., 2001; Tan et al., 2012). Originally identified in the bovine pineal gland (Lerner et al., 1958), melatonin is also produced by a wide range of tissues including the retina, thymus, spleen, heart, muscle, liver, stomach, pancreas, intestine, placenta, testis, ovaries, bone marrow, skin and hair follicle, cerebral cortex, and striatum (Stefulj et al., 2001; Venegas et al., 2012; Acuna-Castroviejo et al., 2014). The content of melatonin in these tissues varies and decreases with age to a similar extent as its pineal production (Sanchez-Hidalgo et al., 2009; Scholtens et al., 2016). 

Although the levels of melatonin in foods are much lower than those of melatonin given as a nutritional supplement, consumption of foods rich in melatonin significantly increases circulating melatonin levels in the range of the physiological concentrations (Maldonado et al., 2009; Johns et al., 2013; Sae-Teaw et al., 2013). However, little is known about the influence of the dietary melatonin intake on human health. In this review, evidence for cardiovascular health benefits of endogenous melatonin and melatonin supplementation as a pharmacological agent or from the diet is discussed.
A strong inverse relationship exists between endogenous melatonin levels and cardiovascular disease (Dominguez-Rodriguez et al., 2010). Epidemiological studies report that both nocturnal melatonin synthesis and circulating levels are reduced in patients with coronary heart disease (Brugger et al., 1995; Altun et al., 2002; Dominguez-Rodriguez et al., 2002), hypertension (Kozirog et al., 2011; Dominguez-Rodriguez et al., 2014), heart failure (Girotti et al., 2003; Dzida et al., 2013; Kimak et al., 2014; Dominguez-Rodriguez et al., 2016) and cardiovascular risk conditions such as diabetes (McMullan et al., 2013) and obesity (Mantele et al., 2012). Incidence for adverse cardiac events, including myocardial infarction (Dominguez-Rodriguez et al., 2002), sudden cardiac death (Muller et al., 1987) and cardiac arrhythmias (Siegel et al., 1992) increases in the early morning, when circulating melatonin levels are considerably lower (Altun et al., 2002). Similarly, low melatonin secretion levels are associated with a greater risk of incidence for myocardial infarction in women with increased body mass index (McMullan et al., 2017), supporting the crucial role of endogenous melatonin in cardiovascular pathologies.
 

 

Melatonin has also been shown to improve survival rates in patients with prostate and colorectal cancer. Studies have shown that men with primary localized malignant prostate tumors have extremely low levels of nocturnal melatonin that decrease with an increase in tumor growth. [46] Patients with unoperated colorectal carcinoma were found to have a significantly lower nocturnal plasma melatonin level compared to controls. [47] However, a second study conducted by Kvetnaia et al. found a higher nocturnal urinary metabolite 6-sulfatoxymelatonin (aMT6s) excretion in operated, untreated males. In one study of 54 patients with metastatic lung and colorectal tumors, the melatonin regimen resulted in stabilization of cancer and improved quality of life for roughly 40% of the recipients. [31, 48] As specified previously, the effects of melatonin supplementations can change according to the time of administration. Melatonin injections given in the morning have been found to stimulate cancer growth while injections in the evening contribute to tumor regression. Afternoon injections have no apparent effect. [31]...

Although melatonin has been successfully used in cancer and sleep disorder treatments, improper timing of use can result in negative outcomes. Melatonin injections in the morning can stimulate tumor growth; doses in the afternoon exhibit no effect, and doses in the evening have retarding effects. [31] Animal studies have shown that large doses of melatonin increased light-induced damage to retinal photoreceptors (ganglion cells, rods, and cones).
 

 

Melatonin doesn't last in the body for long. It has a half-life of 40 to 60 minutes. The half-life is the time it takes for the body to eliminate half a drug.Sep 11, 2019-healthline.com

 
attached another graph of melatonin release from another source, the following link:
 
Two animal studies showing benefits at both high and low dose, but some side effects at high dose.

 

 

From the age of 3 months until their natural death, female Swiss-derived SHR mice were given melatonin with their drinking water (2 or 20mg/l) for 5 consecutive days every month. Intact mice served as controls. There were 54 mice in each group. The results of this study show that the treatment of melatonin did not significantly influence food consumption, but its administration at lower doses did decrease the body weight of mice; it slowed down the age-related switching-off of estrous function; it did not influence the frequency of chromosome aberrations in bone marrow cells; it did not influence mean life span; and it increased life span of the last 10% of the survivors in comparison to controls. We also found that treatment with low dose melatonin (2mg/l) significantly decreased spontaneous tumor incidence (by 1,9-fold), mainly mammary carcinomas, in mice whereas higher doses (20mg/l) failed to influence tumor incidence as compared to controls. For this reason, we conclude that the effect of melatonin as a geroprotector is dose-dependent. https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/12670632/
 

 

From the age of 6 months until their natural deaths, female CBA mice were given melatonin with their drinking water (20 mg/l) for 5 consecutive days every month. Intact mice served as controls. The results of this study show that the consumption of melatonin did not significantly influence food consumption, but it did increase the body weight of older mice; it did not influence physical strength or the presence of fatigue; it decreased locomotor activity and body temperature; it inhibited free radical processes in serum, brain, and liver; it slowed down the age-related switching-off of estrous function; and it increased life span. However, we also found that treatment with the used dose of melatonin increased spontaneous tumor incidence in mice. For this reason, we concluded that it would be premature to recommend melatonin as a geroprotector for long-term use.

 

 

Yeah the attached graph doesn't look too pretty, and I don't think I'd want something with so many beneficial effects declining significantly in my body.   Assuming any truth to the graph

Attached Thumbnails

  • Melatonin-More-Than-A-Sleeping-Aid.png

Edited by Castiel, 19 May 2021 - 05:59 PM.

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#532 Castiel

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Posted 19 May 2021 - 06:36 PM

 

 

Rhesus monkeys subjected to Caloric Restriction with Adequate Nutrition show no decline of melatonin with age, not simply a delay in the decline of melatonin [JOURNAL OF CLINICAL ENDOCRINOLOGY & METABOLISM; Roth,GS; 86(7):3292-3295)].

MELATONIN (benbest.com)

 

Very interesting, if primates on CR experience no decline would that mean that a primate with CR would have 500% more melatonin throughout life than an adult primate? and 1000% higher than an old primate?(given 80% decline with age during adulthood and later 10% decline at more advanced ages)

 

Other interesting stuff from same link

 

Melatonin is a very powerful anti-oxidant. Unlike Vitamin C or glutathione, which are only active in aqueous (watery) phase and Vitamin E, which is only active in lipid (oily) phase, melatonin is effective in both aqueous and lipid phases. Unlike Vitamin E and Vitamin C, which cannot readily cross the blood-brain barrier, melatonin easily crosses the blood-brain barrier [EXPERIMENTAL BIOLOGY AND MEDICINE; Reiter, RJ; 230:104-117 (2005)]

Melatonin is twice as effective at protecting cell membranes from lipid peroxidation as Vitamin E [PHARMACOLOGY LETTERS; Pieri,C; 55(15):271-276 (1994)]. Melatonin is five times more effective than glutathione for neutralizing hydroxyl radicals — the free radicals normally responsible for more than half of all free radical damage in the body (causing lipid peroxidation, DNA damage and protein oxidation). Melatonin and adenosine may be particularly important in protecting brain cells because glutathione concentrations are not very high in the brain. Melatonin in combination with deprenyl significantly counteracts hydroxyl radical production associated with dopamine autoxidation in the brain, and the combination effect is significantly greater than the effect of either agent alone [JOURNAL OF PINEAL RESEARCH; Khaldy,H; 29(2):100-107 (2000)].

In one study, melatonin was more than 60 times more effective than Vitamin C or water-soluble Vitamin E in protecting DNA from DNA damage [ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH PERSPECTIVES; Qi, W; 108:399-402 (2000)]. Melatonin may bind to DNA, providing further protection beyond anti-oxidant activity.

Melatonin concentrations are particularly high in mitochondria and the cell nucleus. DNA in mitochondria are particularly vulnerable to damage because mitochondria have fewer DNA-repair enzymes than nuclear DNA and because mitochondrial DNA lack the protective histone proteins which nuclear DNA have. By its ability to penetrate readily into mitochondria, by directly protecting mitochondrial DNA and by inducing antioxidant enzymes in mitochondria, melatonin may greatly protect mitochondria. Melatonin demonstrably protects mitochondrial DNA from the damaging effects of ethyl alcohol binges in brain, heart and skeletal muscle, as well as in the liver [JOURNAL OF PHARMACOLOGY AND EXPERIMENTAL THERAPEUTICS; Mansouri,A; 298(2):737-743 (2001)]. Twenty-five years after proposing the free-radical theory of aging, Denham Harman proposed a mitochondrial free-radical theory of aging based on the observation that mitochondria are the source of most cellular free radicals [PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES (USA); Harman,D; 78(11):7124-7128 (1981)]. Fruit flies given melatonin increased maximum lifespan by one-third and median lifespan by one-eighth [EXPERIMENTAL GERONTOLOGY; Bonilla,E; 37:629-638 (2002)]. Along with its antioxidant actions, melatonin directly facilitates mitochondrial electron transport chain enzymes in the production of ATP [THE INTERNATIONIAL JOURNAL OF BIOCHEMISTRY & CELL BIOLOGY; Martin,M; 34(4):348-357 (2002)].

In addition to the hydroxyl & peroxyl radical, melatonin neutralizes superoxide, singlet oxygen, hydrogen peroxide and hypochlorous acid [ANNALS OF THE NEW YORK ACADEMY OF SCIENCES 959:238-250 (2002)]. Melatonin inhibits peroxynitrite formation by inhibition of the enzyme nitric oxide synthetase in some brain tissues [LIFE SCIENCES; Leon, J.; 75:765-790 (2004)]. Melatonin increases gene expression and activity of the anti-oxidant enzymes glutathione peroxidase, superoxide dismutase and catalase [JOURNAL OF PINEAL RESEARCH; Rodriguez,C; 36(1):1-9 (2004)]. The effect of glutathione peroxidase induction is considerable — a four-fold increase of the antioxidant enzyme in brain mitochondria and an eightfold increase in liver mitochondria with a 100 nanoMolar melatonin concentration [THE FASEB JOURNAL; Martin,M; 14(12):1677-1679 (2000)].

The chief metabolite of melatonin, 6-hydroxymelatonin (formed in the liver) has as much anti-oxidant activity as melatonin. In fact, the reaction products of melatonin with hydroxyl radical and hydrogen peroxide are themselves anti-oxidants [ACTA BIOCHEMICA POLONICA; Reiter,RJ; 54(1):1-9 (2007)]. Vitamin C can become a toxic pro-oxidant when exposed to free iron, and most anti-oxidants become weak free radicals after having neutralized a free radical. But melatonin's antioxidant action involves donation of two electrons, not one electron, thereby ensuring that melatonin does not become a free radical.

 

 

Melatonin reduces estradiol levels in the blood and inhibits aromatase expression in human breast cancer cells, both of which suggest that melatonin could be of of value in the prevention and treatment of breast cancer [JOURNAL OF PINEAL RESEARCH; Sanchez-Barcelo,EJ; 38(4):217-222 (2005)]. Because melatonin protects against the side effects of radiation, it could be a useful adjunct to radiotherapy in cancer treatment [JOURNAL OF RADIATION RESEARCH; Shirazi,A; 48(4):263-272 (2007)].

The most worrisome experiments involving melatonin are those that show increasing incidence of cancer in certain species of mice (usually female mice) that are given melatonin. Ironically, a study of this kind showed an overall 5.4% increase in mean lifespan and a 17% increase in maximum lifespan despite the increased incidence of tumors [JOURNALS OF GERONTOLOGY; Anisimov,VN; 56A:B311-B323 (2001)]. By contrast, melatonin in other strains of female mice has been shown to suppress tumors [JOURNAL OF PINEAL RESEARCH; Subramanian,A; 10(3):136-140 (1991) and BREAST CANCER RESEARCH AND TREATMENT; Rao,GN; 64(3):287-296 (2000)]. The anti-cancer effects of melatonin are also seen in rats [BREAST CANCER RESEARCH; Lenoir,V; 7(4):R470-R476 (2005)].

Studies of human cancer cells show that treatment with melatonin reduces their proliferation and metastatic capacity [ENDOCRINE-RELATED CANCER; Sanchez-Barcelo,EJ; 10(2):153-159 (2003) and JOURNAL OF PINEAL RESEARCH; Cos,S; 32(2):90-96 (2002)]. Melatonin has been shown to directly inhibit breast cancer cells by 75% — optimally at normal youthful body levels rather than higher doses [JOURNAL OF NEURAL TRANSMISSION; Blask, DE; 21:433-449 (1986)]. Melatonin is not mutagenic according to the Ames Test and, in fact, has been shown to reduce the mutagenicity of a number of chemicals [MUTATION RESEARCH; Musatov,SA; 417(2-3):75-84 (1998)].

A study of totally blind women (who would have less exposure to light and more exposure to melatonin) found them to have less than two-thirds the normal risk of breast cancer [BRITISH JOURNAL OF CANCER; Kliukiene,J; 84(3):397-399 (2001)]. Similar epidemiological studies on people with varying levels of light exposure provide further confirmation of the hypothesis that melatonin reduced cancer risk in humans. Other epidemiological studies have found no correlation between cancer and blood melatonin levels.

 

 

X. POSSIBLE NEGATIVE EFFECTS

For melatonin, more is not better. Blood concentrations which are ten times normal youthful levels can cleave heme molecules to liberate iron and induce oxidative stress [NEUROCHEMISTRY; Clapp-Lilly,KL; 12(6):1277-1280 (2001)]. Even higher levels of melatonin concentrations deplete reduced glutathione levels [LIFE SCIENCES; Osseni,RA; 502:127-131 (2001)].

Melatonin can counteract the effectiveness of steroid drugs, can worsen allergic responses and can worsen auto-immune disease. Melatonin readily crosses the placenta, but the effects of above-normal quantities on a developing fetus or a pregnant woman have not been thoroughly studied. Melatonin is freely available in the United States and has been safely used by large numbers of people, so there are few financial incentives for large controlled clinical trials. Adolescents should not take melatonin supplements because melatonin can interfere with the growth and development that occurs after puberty. Consultation with a physician may be advised before taking melatonin supplements.

(return to contents)

XI. DOSING

Although supplement doses a hundred times the typical 3 mg per day have proven to be safe, higher doses may be unnecessary or even harmful. Doses in the 1 mg to 5 mg range should be safe and sufficient insofare as these doses produce blood levels 10 to 100 times higher than the usual nighttime peaks [THE NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE; Brzezinski,A; 336(3):186-195 (1997)].

Night-time blood levels of melatonin peak at about 120 picograms per milliliter just before the age of puberty. By age 30 blood levels have fallen by half and by age 60 the levels of melatonin in the blood are usually about 5 picograms per milliliter or less. Melatonin supplementation is of much more value for older adults, because their natural production of melatonin is so low [EXPERIMENTAL GERONTOLOGY; Pandi-Perumal,SR; 40(12):911-925 (2005)].

Because melatonin can cause drowsiness and is not very effective when taken in daylight, one or two time-release capsules or tablets daily at bedtime is preferable. Dosages in excess of 3 to 6 mg (milligrams) should not be necessary, and often lower doses are preferred, and equally effective for induction of sleep (if not the other benefits).

 


Edited by Castiel, 19 May 2021 - 06:37 PM.

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#533 Castiel

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Posted 19 May 2021 - 07:05 PM

 

a good video on dosing and covers a few of the benefits.

 

Not sure about his product or brand, but you can get low dose melatonin from multiple reputable brands.

 

While he said at 50 or 60 nature ramped down melatonin to get rid of us.  From a programmed aging, slow death perspective, it wouldn't be surprising if its decay from puberty was part of the aging program designed to worsen our health and kill us.    Every 7-9 years mortality doubles in humans, and I presume this already seems to start from the age of puberty(12~) when some say mortality is at its lowest.



#534 Castiel

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Posted 20 May 2021 - 12:11 PM

note was watching a few dr. videos on youtubes and got 4 interesting findings.   One it is 100x more abundant in central nervous system tissue than in peripheral tissue.(note I speculate this may have some effect on neuronal longevity, the cells rumored to be biologically immortal despite being nondividing and having one of the highest metabolic rates in the body.).   Two supposedly it is 300 times more potent than glutathione, some say may be most powerful antioxidant, very ancient present in cells for more than 2 billion years.  Another estimate for half life in blood 15-30min.  It does not decrease endogenous pineal gland production nor peripheral tissue production.

 

Was investigating its antigrowth properties, as it is said to inhibit breast tissue growth.   So I wondered if it could help with the inevitable aging related prostate growth men experience.    Not sure if it does, but preliminary research on animals suggests it might.

 

 

 

 

Melatonin, secreted by the pineal gland at night, inhibits pubertal development of rats and presumably men. In addition, it may directly suppress prostate growth in the adult rat.-Putative Melatonin Receptors in Benign Human Prostate Tissue

 

 

How common is benign prostatic hyperplasia?

Benign prostatic hyperplasia is the most common prostate problem for men older than age 50. In 2010, as many as 14 million men in the United States had lower urinary tract symptoms suggestive of benign prostatic hyperplasia.1 Although benign prostatic hyperplasia rarely causes symptoms before age 40, the occurrence and symptoms increase with age. Benign prostatic hyperplasia affects about 50 percent of men between the ages of 51 and 60 and up to 90 percent of men older than 80.2

 

 

In fact I hypothesize that age related decline in melatonin production might be connected to this common adverse phenomenon of aging observed in men.


Edited by Castiel, 20 May 2021 - 12:59 PM.


#535 QuestforLife

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Posted 20 May 2021 - 01:37 PM

Have you tried aging.ai online free aging clock?   Aging.ai 3.0 only requires basic blood work blood cell and cholesterol info,  it is good in that it doesn't take age as input.(had to use a few free online calculators to convert parameters into the correct units.)    Phenoage takes age as imput and max possible reduction is said to be 20 years.   That is if you're 80 it won't give an age lower than 60, if I'm not mistaken.   Aging.ai doesn't take age into account but is correlated with all cause mortality which I think increases with aging.    Given that you're not putting age into it there is no limit to how low your age can go, I would think, I mean you can be 90 but if you somehow had 26 year old blood parameters, it would predict age of 26.

 

For more powerful interventions, I think you need something like that.  In my opinion mortality which Gompertz law says increases exponentially with age, is a more relevant stat to track than chronological age.   If a group can achieve significant deviation from Gompertz law that likely means significant effect is being obtained in the aging process itself.

 

Here are my 2019 PhenoAge results:

MortScore: 0.008

Phenotypic Age: 30.04
Est. DNAm Age: 29.84
Est D MScore: 0.008

https://www.longecit...fe/#entry883022

 

I just put the same blood values (plus the other requirements of Aging.AI 3.0) and my result is 23!

 

Not sure I believe either to be honest, given my chronological age of 42 (was 40 in 2019).

 

I'd say I'm probably at about 30 yo in energy levels and 35 yo in appearance (both on a good day!). 


Edited by QuestforLife, 20 May 2021 - 01:38 PM.

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#536 Castiel

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Posted 20 May 2021 - 03:49 PM

Here are my 2019 PhenoAge results:

MortScore: 0.008

Phenotypic Age: 30.04
Est. DNAm Age: 29.84
Est D MScore: 0.008

https://www.longecit...fe/#entry883022

 

I just put the same blood values (plus the other requirements of Aging.AI 3.0) and my result is 23!

 

Not sure I believe either to be honest, given my chronological age of 42 (was 40 in 2019).

 

I'd say I'm probably at about 30 yo in energy levels and 35 yo in appearance (both on a good day!). 

 

Thanks.

 

Can you try putting the theoretical optimal values you showed in an earlier post into aging.AI 3.0.    To see what it gives? 


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#537 Castiel

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Posted 20 May 2021 - 03:58 PM

BTW was researching some of the strongest advocates for melatonin in the past, and found the controversial Walter Pierpaoli.

 

His website has interesting info.

 

 

Melatonin, even if administered in huge doses of grams per day orally (in an old experiment it had been administered in humans up to 6.6 grams per day for 35 days!), did not cause any immediate nor tardy damage or side effects. Any other true hormone, except for DEA (dehydroepiandrosterone, DHEA) would certainly have produced death or serious and irreparable damages, as it would be the case with cortisone and thyroxine. Therefore, contrarily to the «real» hormones, with melatonin no toxic side effects are observed at all. Moreover, 1500 women in Holland have been treated for years with daily doses of 300 mg without any damage!

https://culturapierp...atonin/?lang=en

 

That said in the past, iirc, I've heard at 50-100mg it might induce seizures in some people, or so some sources claimed.   But not sure if the claim of seizures is accurate given the above information from Walter.

 

 

Here's some of his research and claims from an old washington post article arguing against melatonin

 

 

A landmark experiment by Pierpaoli in 1990 showed that when young mice and old mice surgically swapped pineal glands, the older mice looked and acted young and the young mice rapidly showed signs of advanced age. Another experiment showed that melatonin supplements increased their life span. Thus, Pierpaoli concluded, he had found the aging clock.

 

 

Still, authors Pierpaoli, Regelson and Bock describe melatonin as the grand orchestra conductor in a symphony of vastly complex chemical communications that make up human life. They cite evidence that the pineal gland, once thought to be a vestigial organ like the appendix, with no known function, may actually be a central force interconnecting many of the body's systems -- endocrine, immune, neurological.

https://www.washingt...7-e678f1368c0c/

 

 


Edited by Castiel, 20 May 2021 - 04:11 PM.


#538 QuestforLife

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Posted 20 May 2021 - 04:26 PM

Thanks.

Can you try putting the theoretical optimal values you showed in an earlier post into aging.AI 3.0. To see what it gives?


I'd have to put in the 9 values of phenoAge (maxed out to the 'optimal' values) with the other 24 values required by Aging.AI 3.0 (for which I have no optimal values) as per my results in 2019. I doubt the aging.AI results would equally reduce my age by another 21 years (from 30 to 9), because of the weight given to the other 24 factors. In fact we don't even know that phenoAge and Aging.AI agree on the 'direction' of pro or anti aging blood values, i.e. in phenoAge only Albumin and Lymphocyte % want to increase, everything else wants to reduce. We don't know if that is the same with Aging.Ai, though it wouldn't be hard to work out by putting in some mock values.

Anyway I'll try tomorrow.
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#539 Castiel

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Posted 20 May 2021 - 04:42 PM

Was researching some of Pierpaoli's claims of melatonin safety, couldn't find the 300mg 1500 women for years in holland, but did find 75mg 1400 women for 4 years study no side effects despite such high dose for such a long time.

 

 

Notably, no side effects were reported in a report of a phase 2 clinical trial in which 1400 women were treated with 75 mg of melatonin nightly for 4 years.

https://www.medscape...rticle/472385_8


Edited by Castiel, 20 May 2021 - 04:42 PM.

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#540 QuestforLife

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Posted 21 May 2021 - 12:41 PM

Anyway I'll try tomorrow.

 

It turns out there are only 4 overlapping values between PhenoAge and Age.AI 3.0: albumin, creatinine, Glucose and MCV. The other 5 values from PhenoAge (excl. chronological Age), namely C-reactive protein, Lymphocyte %, RDW, ALP and WBC are not included in Age.AI 3.0.

 

I adjusted my actual 2019 blood values for the 4 overlapping blood tests to the 'optimum' values, which in the case of PhenoAge reduced my 'real' result from 30 to 9yo. The result on Age.AI 3.0 was less dramatic, down from the 'real' result of 23 to 20. The PhenoAge delta of real to optimal was 21 years improvement, but the Age.AI 3.0 delta was only 3 years of improvement, albeit from a much lower base.

 

Atleast we know that both PhenoAge and Aging.AI 3.0 moved in the same direction (reduced biological age) with the 'optimal' blood marker values.

 

At this point I'd probably put more weight on the PhenoAge method, due to its more realistic result being closer to my chronological age (42yo) and cell based aging test results (telomeres 38.2yo, 2019; methylation 37.7yo, 2021), although its dependence on less variables might make it vulnerable to more wild swings.

 

I'd still place more weight on measurement of cell based aging using methylation markers or telomeres than a blood test estimate. 

 

And I'd put real biomarker results (BP, HRV, Pulse, Reaction Time, etc) above the results from a cell age based estimate.

 

That is just my opinion at the moment, but all feedback is good in our quest for more (healthy) life.


Edited by QuestforLife, 21 May 2021 - 12:43 PM.

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