413 replies to this topic

[docmaas]

Cost depends of expenses of mfgr  which differ radically due to a lot of factors.  Trodusquemine has a couple of different synthesization paths one of which appears to be quite difficult and time consuming.  The other seems simpler but is still complex.  It would definitely be cheaper to produce in a country with fewer regulations like China than it is in countries with considerably more like the US.  Labor is more here than in China as well.  I might purchase from a lab in China if I were convinced it is reliable but I don't know of one.  

 

No-one wants to incur the overhead of making something they can't subsequently control the availability of at least long enough to recover their costs and make some profit.  A new molecule can be patented and thus protected but new molecules are very expensive to find and manufacture.  A naturally existing molecule cannot be protected so a large company hoping to develop clinical application market will not invest in something they cannot keep control of.  They may try to find an analog, and some may well be doing so now but that is long process of discovery followed by extensive testing and multiple levels of trials to get it to market and then it will be a prescription drug.

 

Not sure why a supplement company has not picked this up like Berberine was picked up by multiple companies but I suspect it has to do with a large enough marketplace to support the manufacturing costs and so far that marketplace doesn't exist.  

 

I'd like to find a way to pursue Claramine though.  It's available for purchase but untested on other than mice with no safety profile established.  It's a simple salt of trodusquemine but I have no idea if that salt could have an adverse impact or if that can predicted.  It probably needs to be tested and longer term toxicology tests take time and a lab.

 

I don't claim to be an expert but these are my thoughts.

 

Mike

 

 

I wish someone could explain to me the economics of why it costs so much to produce these substances.  Is it something that can be overcome, or is it still inherent in the production process?  It can't be entirely the latter because the Chinese companies have no problem getting the prices down by orders of magnitude. 

 

Not to go off topic, but I'm looking into 2-HOBA for the same reason as this thread was started, targeting atherosclerosis.  It is not a direct comparison because this is just a derivative of Buckwheat, and not a synthesized molecule.  However, once again American companies are selling it at literally 100X the cost of Chinese companies.  That is insane.  China is a fairly wealthy country now, so it can't all be down to labor costs or even quality controls.  Anyone interested in that purchase, feel free to PM me.  Though it is much cheaper, it is still in the range where a group buy could be beneficial. 

 

[OP2040]

Thanks Mike, a couple things come to mind though, please don’t take them the wrong way.

First, the implication of your explanation is that there should be many unexploited natural molecules out there, but we are flying blind because we don’t have lots of studies or trials to confirm. To me, there has to be some market mechanism that can put these into consumer hands. I have to assume it had way more to do with the regulations that actually create markets. And those can certainly be tweaked to creat a whole new market.

That brings up my second point. I have a hard time thinking of a bigger market than something that reverses atherosclerosis. The market is literally every single person on earth that lives past ~30

I’m no commie, nor am I a free-market libertarian. Markets are created to meet human needs and wants, and pharmaceutical markets are failing miserably in that respect. In fact, everything from pill to doctors office looks like something out the 19th. century. Case in point is the

The best illustration of this is here:
https://www.investor...pbbpppviep-win/

This is the only drug I can think of that I would call an actual cure, and the market is so broken that the company that created it is not benefiting properly, while the patients that deskerately need it are vastly underserved.
Sorry for that mess, posting from a phone...

[The Capybara]

Is a near term group buy not in the cards?

If so, I'd like to try sourcing this one, if everyone is good with that?

I am getting 10g of piperlongumine extracted. I realize that this isn't a piperlongumine thread, but if anyone's interested.

[mikey]

Is a near term group buy not in the cards?

If so, I'd like to try sourcing this one, if everyone is good with that?

I am getting 10g of piperlongumine extracted. I realize that this isn't a piperlongumine thread, but if anyone's interested.

 

You're free to try, but I checked with something like 10 companies and all of them charged about the same extremely high price for TD.

 

https://www.medcheme...m/MSI-1436.html

 

As I said before, TD is currently being investigated for several pathologies, including diabetes. 

 

Once TD goes through enough studies and so it becomes obvious that it will become a prescription drug then large-scale production of TD should begin and the raw material cost will come down - even before it is turned into a prescription drug, I believe.

 

As I said, I checked every possible source, but you can do the same if you wish. We are apparently still some time away from its cost coming down.

And when it does I will be eager to obtain some.

[docmaas]

You're free to try, but I checked with something like 10 companies and all of them charged about the same extremely high price for TD.

 

https://www.medcheme...m/MSI-1436.html

 

As I said before, TD is currently being investigated for several pathologies, including diabetes.

 

Once TD goes through enough studies and so it becomes obvious that it will become a prescription drug then large-scale production of TD should begin and the raw material cost will come down - even before it is turned into a prescription drug, I believe.

 

As I said, I checked every possible source, but you can do the same if you wish. We are apparently still some time away from its cost coming down.

And when it does I will be eager to obtain some.

 

I don't think it can be patented as it is a naturally occurring molecule.  That would leave application patents that from what I understand are inherently weak or perhaps mfg/synthesis method patents like Chromadex appears to have locked up for Niagen.  Not sure if a natural occurring supplement can be made available only by prescription or not.  

 

My guess is that large companies may be looking for analogs that will provide the desired charcteristic(s) with as few negatives side effects as possible so that they can patent and protect their investment.  

 

I'm curious about the claramine molecule.  It was found to be very similar in effect to TD for diabetes but the plaque removal was uncovered a couple of years later and as far as I know claramine was never tested for that effect.  Moreover, there seems to be no toxicological information.  

 

I'd love to see TD made available though.

 

Mike

[mikey]

I don't think it can be patented as it is a naturally occurring molecule.  That would leave application patents that from what I understand are inherently weak or perhaps mfg/synthesis method patents like Chromadex appears to have locked up for Niagen.  Not sure if a natural occurring supplement can be made available only by prescription or not.  

 

My guess is that large companies may be looking for analogs that will provide the desired charcteristic(s) with as few negatives side effects as possible so that they can patent and protect their investment.  

 

I'm curious about the claramine molecule.  It was found to be very similar in effect to TD for diabetes but the plaque removal was uncovered a couple of years later and as far as I know claramine was never tested for that effect.  Moreover, there seems to be no toxicological information.  

 

I'd love to see TD made available though.

 

Mike

 

I haven't searched but can't they do a use patent, for diabetes, for obesity, etc... Unless someone else has already done each use patent. But drug companies buy use patents and make a lot of money for the use.

[Rocket]

Bump

Lets keep this alive.

[able]

I didn't notice this thread earlier.  Sounds like massive potential benefit, and am also curious how it is not exploited yet.

 

I'm a little fuzzy on the FDA rules. As I understand,  It is naturally occurring, so can't be patented.  That dissuades Pharma companies somewhat.

 

It isn't found in normal food sources, so cant be sold as a dietary supplement, right?  Otherwise supplement makers would jump on it.

 

I'm up for a group buy, if anyone organizes it, but I didn't notice if  any costs were quoted here.  

[mikey]

I didn't notice this thread earlier.  Sounds like massive potential benefit, and am also curious how it is not exploited yet.

 

I'm a little fuzzy on the FDA rules. As I understand,  It is naturally occurring, so can't be patented.  That dissuades Pharma companies somewhat.

 

It isn't found in normal food sources, so cant be sold as a dietary supplement, right?  Otherwise supplement makers would jump on it.

 

I'm up for a group buy, if anyone organizes it, but I didn't notice if  any costs were quoted here.  

 

TD appears to have numerous potential benefits for regenerative/repair purposes. It could be sold as a dietary supplement, from what I gather. However, we still must find a company that has the firepower to bring the cost down and market it.

 

You're right about it not being patentable. I didn't know that it couldn't receive a use patent.

A variation of a naturally occurring substance may be patentable if an inventor is able to demonstrate substantial advantages of using the variant.
https://ocr.yale.edu...rring-substance

 

Variant? Well, we can hope. 

 

In a single-payer (not profit-driven) medical system the benefits for TD would logically cause it to be studied and made into a beneficial drug, for many purposes.

I wonder that another country that is single-payer, like Cuba, would find this interesting. In Cuba drugs that cost over a hundred dollars here can cost 25 cents.

We need to find a way to connect with a single-payer medical system and "sell" them on the benefits of TD. Some idea like that perhaps.

 

As to cost, if we did a group buy with a high quantity it would still cost something like $7,700 per dose. (I don't remember the details, just the summary.)

 

However, if one dose reversed atherosclerosis in mice and it would work in humans I would spend that much money on it to have clean new arteries. 

I remain committed to a group buy, but it's going to require a lot of people that can and will spend that kind of money OR somehow getting a country, like Cuba, to want to produce it for the good of the population.

Perhaps this is an avenue that will bear fruit.

[RWhigham]

Stearic Acid

There are many PTP1B inhibitors as I suggested in post 122.  Add stearic acid to the list:

[Ref} Stearic acid serves as a potent inhibitor of protein tyrosine phosphatase 1B.

 

[Several times a week, I take 12 g of stearic acid after lunch followed 3 hr later by 3 mg of C60 in EVOO to increase my stem cell pool. (Turnbuckle hypothesis) - see bottom half of this post for how I prepare the stearic acid, See this post for the Turnbuckle protocol. Taken after lunch I feel fine and always feel great the next day, but taken in the morning on an empty stomach I feel terrible later, depleted of energy and starving]

 

Trodusquemine review

In this study Pharmacological inhibition of protein tyrosine phosphatase 1B protects against atherosclerotic plaque formation in the LDLR-/- mouse model of atherosclerosis at the University of Aberdeen 8 wk old LDL-receptor deficient (LDLR -/-) mice put on a high fat diet (HFD) for 12 wks (causing plaques) had their plaque removed by doses of TD.  It was previously known that PTP1B deficient mice did not develop plaque. So they wanted to see the effects of the PTP1B inhibitor on mice with plaque. Trodusquemine was chosen as a strong PTP1B inhibitor.

• "To determine if global PTP1B inhibitors would attenuate plaque formation, we used the LDLR−/− mouse model of atherosclerosis. We assessed whether a single dose and/or chronic PTP1B inhibition could slow or reverse atherosclerotic plaque formation in mice fed on HFD."
• "The PTP1B inhibitor trodusquemine was selected as this drug has been reported to be more specific than previously synthesized compounds, since it binds and inhibits allosterically rather than at the catalytic domain which is highly conserved between other tyrosine phosphatase family members".
• "single dose and chronic trodusquemine treatment resulted in attenuated plaque formation, as indicated by a decrease in total plaque area" 

 Plaque.jpg   11.45KB   0 downloads

 

A PTP1B inhibitor stack

• Stearic acid - 12 g
• Red Sage Root Powder 1 cap 500 mg - Salvia Miltiorrhiza root
• Curcumin 1 cap 400 mg - LEF BCM
• Mega Green Tea Ext (leaf) 1 cap 725 mg, 45% EGCG - LEF
• Magnolia Extract 1 cap 200 mg  - 90% "Honokiol & Magnolol"  
• AMP-K Stimulator 1 cap 225 mg - Gynostemma Pentaphyllum Extract (leaf)
• Berberine Hcl 1 cap 400 mg
• Quercetin (EMIQ) 1 cap 50 mg - 40x bioavailability
• Ursolic Acid - Urso-X 1 cap 300 mg, 25% ursolic ac - from Rosemary extract

Trodusquemine Not Available

Since it appears trodusquemine is not available, I am posting a possible alternative. Some of the above stack may risk toxicity, but Stearic acid is quite safe at 20 g or more at a time.  Unlike other fatty acids, stearic acid lowers LDL (as does trodusquemine). Caveat: Kokum butter contains a lot of oleic acid too - Stearic acid 55-65%  Oleic acid 30-44%  Linoleic acid 0-8%

Edited by RWhigham, 15 October 2018 - 09:57 PM.

[RWhigham]

Continuation of preceding post about Stearic acid as a PTP!B inhibitor - Caution, that which is known commercially as "Stearic Acid" is a eutectic mix of approximately 49% stearic acid, 51% palmitic acid, and a tiny amount of oleic acid. The oleic acid content has been removed by pressing. "Triple pressed" simply means the oleic acid content has been reduced to negligible. The palmitic acid content is very undesirable and in my opinion would far outweigh any benefit from the stearic acid content. Solvents can be used to separate palmitic acid and stearic acid. "Stearic Acid XX" contains approximately XX% stearic acid. Commercial "Stearic Acid" and "Stearic Acid 50" are identical. I have not been able to find a food grade "Stearic Acid 95" that I can buy (to be low enough in palmitic acid and safe to consume). The only example I know of is Sigma-Aldrich W303518 which is only available to a qualified research lab, so I use Kokum butter. Fatty acids from Kokum butter as from all natural sources are in the form of poorly absorbed triglycerides. I break down the triglycerides into free fatty acids before consumption as show in  this previously mentioned post.

Edited by RWhigham, 15 October 2018 - 11:03 PM.

[Rocket]

Inflammation and senescence is what causes heart disease. Considering that if one were to use stearic acid (commercially available) in the above protocol, it would be for a limited time and not for life. I would not worry one bit about consuming palmitic acid for a limited amount of time... Especially if the protocol worked as fast as the trodusquemine. It takes a lifetime of abusing ones body to build up plaque, and it doesn't happen in a week of consuming stearic acid even if stearic acid was dangerous which I don't believe it is.

[smithx]

I consume stearic and palmitic acid all the time... in the form of chocolate:

Typical Fatty acid composition (%)     Fatty acid Percentage 
Arachidic acid (C20:0)                  1.0% 
Linoleic acid (C18:2)                   3.2% 
Oleic acid (C18:1)                     34.5% 
Palmitic acid (C16:0)                  26.0% 
Palmitoleic acid (C16:1)                0.3% 
Stearic acid (C18:0)                   34.5% 
Other Fatty Acids                       0.5%

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Cocoa_butter

 

Is there evidence that the palmitic acid content is dangerous or unhealthful?

 

Edited by smithx, 16 October 2018 - 03:37 AM.

[RWhigham]

I said the palmitic acid is very undesirable because it raises serum LDL. PTP1B agonists raise serum LDL. PTP1B inhibitors reduce serum LDL. Since palmitic and stearic acid have opposite effects on serum LDL, I fear they may have opposite affects on PTP1B and on plaque.  Also, since plaque develops while consuming food stuffs containing a mixture of both these fatty acids, it seems improbable to me that a mixture of both would reduce plaque. 

 

The PTP1B inhibitor trodusquemine definitely reduced plaque in LDLR-/- mice. Stearic acid by itself is reported to be a strong inhibitor of PTP1B. Since we can safely consume relatively enormous quantities of stearic acid, it seems plausible to me that stearic acid could inhibit PTP1B enough to reduce plaque.

 

The Kokum butter that seems to work well for my stem cell experiment is about 60% stearic acid and 30% oleic acid. The mono-unsaturated fat that is closest to stearic acid (C18:0) is oleic acid (C18:1). I think the oleic acid does not interferes with the PTP1B inhibition by stearic acid.

Edited by RWhigham, 16 October 2018 - 09:45 AM.

[Alpharius]

Hmm if those interventions indeed dissolve plaques, isnt there a danger in case of stronger plaques for thrombosis or worse? Just curious if there is any research or information on this. My father got diagnosed with plaques in his coronary blood vessels and will need an operation probably. Wondering if Trodesquemine would be worth a try or too dangerous. Appreciate any kind of info.

Edited by Alpharius, 16 October 2018 - 05:35 PM.

[Alpharius]

Is there still interest in this substance? I am in talks with TeamTLR and maybe they would consider to purchase/synthesize it, if enough interest is there.

I am still not convinced that this is orally available, as in one publication they have synthesized an orally available derivate of Trodesquemine.
DPM-1001
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29217773

 

Maybe we should go for that one instead? But the problem is we dont have any kind of safety studies done on DPM-1001, while on TRU there are 3 clinical studies already done and a dose range established.

Those are results of the diabetic study, where they gave either 3, 6 or 10 mg/m2 every 72h all together 8 times, so they have been indeed succesful:
https://professional...abetic-subjects

If we assume that a 60 kg heavy human has an m2 area of 1.60 m2, ( https://www.ncbi.nlm...P-7-27-g002.jpg ) then someone with around 80kg is maybe near to 1.80 m2 body area. so it means for a men one could multiply the dosage above with x1.5 up to x2. That means a maximum amount of TRU would be 20 mg needed for 1 application. In mice trials they gave 1 mg solved in 1 ml water over 10 minutes and so 10 mg. Means one would need to apply a 10-20 ml NaCl solution with TRU either 1 mg/ml or 2 mg.

So for lets say 10 higher dose applications one would need 200 mg of TRU. Not more. A group buy would so not need to buy huge quantities for each person, as already smaller amounts would be completely enough.

In this terminated trial, which never started, they wanted even to try a 96 mg/m2 dosage for breast cancer patients:
https://clinicaltria...MSI-1436&rank=1

Edited by Alpharius, 20 October 2018 - 10:25 AM.

[docmaas]

The full paper is available here:  https://www.research...models/download

 

 

Is there still interest in this substance? I am in talks with TeamTLR and maybe they would consider to purchase/synthesize it, if enough interest is there.

I am still not convinced that this is orally available, as in one publication they have synthesized an orally available derivate of Trodesquemine.
DPM-1001
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29217773

 

Maybe we should go for that one instead? But the problem is we dont have any kind of safety studies done on DPM-1001, while on TRU there are 3 clinical studies already done and a dose range established.

Those are results of the diabetic study, where they gave either 3, 6 or 10 mg/m2 every 72h all together 8 times, so they have been indeed succesful:
https://professional...abetic-subjects

If we assume that a 60 kg heavy human has an m2 area of 1.60 m2, ( https://www.ncbi.nlm...P-7-27-g002.jpg ) then someone with around 80kg is maybe near to 1.80 m2 body area. so it means for a men one could multiply the dosage above with x1.5 up to x2. That means a maximum amount of TRU would be 20 mg needed for 1 application. In mice trials they gave 1 mg solved in 1 ml water over 10 minutes and so 10 mg. Means one would need to apply a 10-20 ml NaCl solution with TRU either 1 mg/ml or 2 mg.

So for lets say 10 higher dose applications one would need 200 mg of TRU. Not more. A group buy would so not need to buy huge quantities for each person, as already smaller amounts would be completely enough.

In this terminated trial, which never started, they wanted even to try a 96 mg/m2 dosage for breast cancer patients:
https://clinicaltria...MSI-1436&rank=1

 

[Vermonter]

Interested in group buy. Would take a full gm if cost 5000.00 or less.

[mikey]

The full paper is available here: https://www.research...models/download

[mikey]

Note the breast cancer study was IV drip over two hours. At my weight,about 200 lbs at the high dose I would need 775 mg or so. This would cost over $7,000 for one dose. I would do it if others would, because it is the only substance that cleared atherosclerosis in mice in one exposure. While there have been suggestions for potential alternatives none of them have the background that TD has, so while I’m interested in hearing about them only TD has my full interest. I wonder that TLR could make it for an affordable cost.

[mikey]

The full paper is available here:  https://www.research...models/download

 

You are correct in that TD requires IV administration, to the best of my knowledge. At my body weight, the calculation for a single EFFECTIVE dose of TD to (theoretically) fully resolve atherosclerosis (as it did in mice) is about 750 mg, which would have to be delivered as an IV drip.

 

If DPM1001 will provide the same beneficial effect for CVD and it was considerably more affordable I would work to support a group buy.

 

As you said, we do not have published data that equals what is available for TD.

 

I will get lab prices for DPM1001 if I know what dose might be effective and how many people would want to be involved in a group buy, so that I am able to provide an amount to request of the manufacturing labs.

Whether we do decide to buy it or not, pricing it would shed some light on whether it makes sense to experiment with DPM1001 in lieu of being able to afford TD at this time.

I won't jump the gun and just do it without more data, specifically on safety. However, if it does prove to be safe and effective as if it was fully active as an oral version of TD it is worth taking some time and considering all aspects of a purchase.

More information, please, if you have it.

[The Capybara]

The least expensive pricing on high purity trodusquemine I could find from a legitimate lab was $15k per gram with a lead time of a month or two.

This is the most expensive compound I have yet to price in a decade. It was tough to find an above board lab that would even consider the synthesis.

[zorba990]

Seems like a good candidate for a liposome....

[The Capybara]

Why do you say that?

Do we know how well it's absorbed and distributed throughout the body?

Do we know the solubility?

[Alpharius]

Note the breast cancer study was IV drip over two hours. At my weight,about 200 lbs at the high dose I would need 775 mg or so. This would cost over $7,000 for one dose. I would do it if others would, because it is the only substance that cleared atherosclerosis in mice in one exposure. While there have been suggestions for potential alternatives none of them have the background that TD has, so while I’m interested in hearing about them only TD has my full interest. I wonder that TLR could make it for an affordable cost.

I wouldnt take the breast cancer study as an example for the dosage range, which is very high, maybe more the ones with diabetics, where TD achieved improvements of blood sugar values (short and long term values) and has been used in a way lower dosage. Like I calculated, even for 10 applications, one would not need more then 200 mg using the upper dosage used in the diabetics study. Lets assume we do even twice as much per dosage then the highest dose in the diabetics trials, one could limit the amount of applications to 5 times and still 200 mg would be enough. Considering, that even one therapy with TD could be enough to clean our blood vessels, it would be a price worth paying.

TLR has suggested that those of us who are interested in TD should come together and first also calculate how much per person one would need, and then approximately calculate the total amount we would be interested in. Using TLR for that would make it easier, so nobody of us would need to collect money or distribute the TD. 

I have so far ordered twice from TLR, Dasa and Rapamycin, used the Rapa and it feels (side effects) like the original Rapa tablets did. Also they respond to questions or orders very fast and are themself interested in this stuff. 

I cant imagine DPM-1001 would be cheaper, as it is a derivate, and also we dont have any clinical trials confirming the safety with it.

[Valijon]

Correct me if Im wrong but isnt EDTA a potent destroyer of artherioscleotic plaque?

[mikey]

Correct me if Im wrong but isnt EDTA a potent destroyer of artherioscleotic plaque?

 

Supposedly, according to true experts, such as Gary Gordon, MD, EDTA works for this.

 

However, my local doctor, Dr. Chun, whom I know to be completely transparent told me that it didn't work for plaque.

 

Therefore, I am skeptical.

I wouldnt take the breast cancer study as an example for the dosage range, which is very high, maybe more the ones with diabetics, where TD achieved improvements of blood sugar values (short and long term values) and has been used in a way lower dosage. Like I calculated, even for 10 applications, one would not need more then 200 mg using the upper dosage used in the diabetics study. Lets assume we do even twice as much per dosage then the highest dose in the diabetics trials, one could limit the amount of applications to 5 times and still 200 mg would be enough. Considering, that even one therapy with TD could be enough to clean our blood vessels, it would be a price worth paying.

TLR has suggested that those of us who are interested in TD should come together and first also calculate how much per person one would need, and then approximately calculate the total amount we would be interested in. Using TLR for that would make it easier, so nobody of us would need to collect money or distribute the TD. 

I have so far ordered twice from TLR, Dasa and Rapamycin, used the Rapa and it feels (side effects) like the original Rapa tablets did. Also they respond to questions or orders very fast and are themself interested in this stuff. 

I cant imagine DPM-1001 would be cheaper, as it is a derivate, and also we dont have any clinical trials confirming the safety with it.

 

Good work. I am interested, especially if I won't have to pay for and use 750 mg.

[Alpharius]

Interested in group buy. Would take a full gm if cost 5000.00 or less.

I cant guarantee we will get a full gram at this price, but as I described already, probably that much wont be needed in order to clear your blood vessels from plaque. 1 g would be enough for several people and applications. 

So how much interest is here? I would def. buy in here, lets say I would add 5000 USD for sure. 
If there is enough interest I would point the TLR guys to this thread and let them make a suggestion. 

[Vermonter]

I cant guarantee we will get a full gram at this price, but as I described already, probably that much wont be needed in order to clear your blood vessels from plaque. 1 g would be enough for several people and applications. 

So how much interest is here? I would def. buy in here, lets say I would add 5000 USD for sure. 
If there is enough interest I would point the TLR guys to this thread and let them make a suggestion. 

 

There are likely significant other benefits related to the compound, which has potential multisystem regenerative capabilities. Those would require more that a single dose. I encourage people to read the early investigational animal studies by Zasloff.

 

Claramine is very similar, and supposedly easier to manufacture - I posted on this earlier. I expect zero toxicity for these compounds, provided they are essentially pure, endotoxin removed, and filtered.

 

I would be good with Claramine as well.

[docmaas]

There are likely significant other benefits related to the compound, which has potential multisystem regenerative capabilities. Those would require more that a single dose. I encourage people to read the early investigational animal studies by Zasloff.

 

Claramine is very similar, and supposedly easier to manufacture - I posted on this earlier. I expect zero toxicity for these compounds, provided they are essentially pure, endotoxin removed, and filtered.

 

I would be good with Claramine as well.

 

What are your expectations concerning claramine toxicity based on?  I'm hopeful that this is true but have no idea how to estimate or reason out an answer.  I'm wondering if there are for fee labs around set up to do tests.

 

Mike