413 replies to this topic

[ryukenden]

While we're waiting for TD to be available and cheap there is always the Linus Pauling protocol. Mega-doses of Vit-C and Lysine smaller doses of D3, K2. Anecdotally, after a year of supplementing this, many experimenters saw their arteries get clear.

Who did take those combination? Can you post th thread if it’s from this forum?

[Quattro64]

Not this forum, It is out on the Google machine "Linus Pauling + Vitaman C + Heart disease"

[Quattro64]

the actual pauling protocol for heart disease is:

 

5grams Vit-C3

3-4gram Lysine

2-3gram Proline

smaller doses of

tocotrienol vitamin E

Vitamin K2

 

per day

 

 

 

[pamojja]

At the time of Pauling's recommendations, tocotrienols or vitamin K2 wasn't even available. Why spreading so obvious ignorant lies?

 

These were Linus Pauling's recommendations just to maintain good health in his '86 book:

 

 

How to Live Longer and Feel Better

• Take vitamin C every day, 6 grams to 18 g (6000 to 18,000 milligrams), or more. Do not miss a single day.
• Take vitamin E every day, 400 IU, 800 IU, or 1600 IU.
• Take one or two Super-B tablets every day, to provide good amounts of the B-vitamins.
• Take 25,000 IU vitamin A tablet every day.
• Take a mineral supplement every day, such as one tablet of the Bronson vitamin-mineral formula, which provides 100 mg of calcium, 18 mg of iron, 0.15 mg of iodine, 1 mg of copper, 25 mg of magnesium, 3 mg of manganese, 15 mg of zinc, 0.015 mg of molybdenum, 0.015 mg of chromium, and 0.015 mg of selenium.
• Keep your intake of ordinary sugar (sucrose, raw sugar, brown sugar, honey) to 50 pounds per year, which is half the present U.S. average. Do not add sugar to tea or coffee. Do not eat high-sugar foods. Avoid sweet desserts. Do not drink soft drink.
• Except for avoiding sugar, eat what you like - but not too much of any one food. Eggs and meat are good foods. Also you should eat some vegetables and fruits. Do not eat so much food as to become obese.
• Drink plenty of water every day.
• Keep active; take some exercise. Do not at any time exert yourself physically to an extent far beyond what you are accustomed to.
• Drink alcoholic beverages only in moderation.
• Do not smoke cigarettes.
• Avoid stress. Work at a job that you like. Be happy with your family.

PS: can't help but add another Linus advise here: 'always listen to advise, but never believe blindly'

 

This is one patent filed in 1990:

 

Prevention and treatment of occlusive cardiovascular disease with ascorbate and substances that inhibit the binding of lipoprotein (A)

[Quattro64]

Other Doctors came later, added the other supplements, Dr. Rath notably worked with Pauling prior to his death in 1994.

[pamojja]

Other Doctors came later, added the other supplements, Dr. Rath notably worked with Pauling prior to his death in 1994.

 

If Linus Pauling recommended already much more comprehensive supplementation for maintaining good health only, anything less isn't Paulings protocol against CVD. At the https://vitamincfoundation.com/forum/, I saw many turning up disappointed, because they found it didn't worked. On being ask it always turned out they mistook Rath's later devised Mini-protocol.

 

However, even that is still much more comprehensive, just has mini-doses and other ingredients compared to Paulings original recommendations. However what you consider above Pauling's protocol is really an insult to Linus Pauling. For which I only can think of one reason, the continued discredit to this man even many years after his death.

 

These later Doctors who came later, but only subtracted (except items which weren't available at the time) - you should be able to give their names. Please do, so that such irresponsible charlatans can be identified.
 

[Quattro64]

Well TD will hopefully be here soon. It will hopefully work well in humans and wont cost too much. I'd much rather inject myself once with TD and have it not only clear my arteries but rejuvenate my heart and arteries/veins, overnight. For those out there that know they have blockage now they could try Pauling/Rath CVD protocol IF they want, it isn't that expensive.

 

I do think that the Pauling idea on CVD is interesting, that Humans(and other primates) had a common ancestor 50Mil years ago that had a gene damaged or modified that destroyed our ability to produce our own endogenous Vit C. And that our bodies basically use cholesterol to try and repair our Scurvyied arteries, which are starved for Vit C and the collagen it would allow us to produce. Along with, ironically, Guinea Pigs(and other primates) Humans are the only mammals that can't produce their own Vit C, so we have heart disease. There are anecdotal cases of Humans having their arterial blocks cleared with Pauling's protocol. His early studies with Guinea Pigs also showed similar protections from heart disease.

 

Eventually I think CRISPR tech will emerge, initially as a cosmetic intervention, to cure wrinkles. By modifying our gene so that we can produce Vit C/Collagen again. This will of course also cure our heart disease.

[Daniel Cooper]

Guys,

 

TRL still has an offer on the table to make 2 grams of Claramine  for $8,100.  

 

Is there any interest in this?  Last call.

 

 

 

[ZCKZ]

I’m still interested

[jond071112]

I am still interested.

[Rocket]

Sure I am in

[smithx]

The protein tyrosine phosphatase 1B inhibitor MSI-1436 stimulates regeneration of heart and multiple other tissues
https://www.nature.c...1536-017-0008-1

MSI-1436 Is Trodusquemine

[trying2survive]

I'm interested in the group buy...

[smithx]

Although Claramine is similar to Trodusquemine, what evidence do we have about its level of protein tyrosine phosphatase 1B inhibition and the specificity of that inhibition (which is apparently why Trodusquemine works).

 

 

 

[mikey]

Although Claramine is similar to Trodusquemine, what evidence do we have about its level of protein tyrosine phosphatase 1B inhibition and the specificity of that inhibition (which is apparently why Trodusquemine works).

 

If Trodusquemine works. Did anyone work out why one exposure cleared plaque in mouse arteries, while multiple doses didn't'?

[smithx]

I am not confident that a single dose of Trodusquemine (let alone Claramine) will actually clear arteries. As I stated in a previous posting, it looks like the results in that study may be artifacts of too-small a sample size.

 

Also, the researchers who say that Trodusquemine causes restoration of heart and other tissue damage are talking about weeks or months of injections, not single doses.

 

So the quantities being considered seem quite unlikely to have the desired effects.

 

On the other hand, if I was dying of arterial blockages I'd pay anything for a chance at recovery, and would want to try this.

 

 

If Trodusquemine works. Did anyone work out why one exposure cleared plaque in mouse arteries, while multiple doses didn't'?

 

Edited by smithx, 03 April 2019 - 07:39 PM.

[ryukenden]

Interested. Count me in if possible to post it to uk.

Trodusquemine Only.

Edited by ryukenden, 03 April 2019 - 09:31 PM.

[Rocket]

If Trodusquemine works. Did anyone work out why one exposure cleared plaque in mouse arteries, while multiple doses didn't'?

The way I read and interpret is that one dose did not totally wipe out all arteriosclerosis. One dose probably removed some severe plaques, but subsequent doses did nothing for clearing out the passages of everything.

The story doesn't quite jive with itself if taken literally.

Maybe it only removes newly formed plaques that haven't quite "set" and fully finished forming.

[mikey]

Ok with maybes. But what do we “know” and what is the cost? Retired seniors count our pennies and only maybe 0.1 percent can afford to gamble when the word “maybe” is used. I’ve been a longtime avid and humble fan of trodusquemine’s potential since the beginning of interest in it when it cost $10,000 + a day. I’m still waiting, wishing and hoping to make my arteries great again. Please, anyone, provide some certainty and, once again, the cost. Personally, I’d spend a lot for the blood pressure of a teen-ager. Thank you all for any solid answers.

[smithx]

None of those ideas are supported by the data.

 

What they reported was that one dose cleaned out the arteries and multiple doses were worse.

 

 

The way I read and interpret is that one dose did not totally wipe out all arteriosclerosis. One dose probably removed some severe plaques, but subsequent doses did nothing for clearing out the passages of everything.

The story doesn't quite jive with itself if taken literally.

Maybe it only removes newly formed plaques that haven't quite "set" and fully finished forming.

 

[ryukenden]

None of those ideas are supported by the data.

What they reported was that one dose cleaned out the arteries and multiple doses were worse.

Where can I read about the data? Can you please let me know the link?

[Rocket]

None of those ideas are supported by the data.

 

What they reported was that one dose cleaned out the arteries and multiple doses were worse.

 

How can multiple doses be worse than a single dose? That's the same as saying that one dose "cures" atherosclerosis and multiple doses caused atherosclerosis.

[smithx]

Yes, that's exactly my point. It doesn't make any sense. But that's what the research paper which is the basis for everyone wanting to get this drug is saying. Their data shows that 1 dose worked wonders but more doses were much worse.

 

This means that all the results are suspect and are probably due to too-small a sample size.

 

See my post about this here: https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=868255

 

 

How can multiple doses be worse than a single dose? That's the same as saying that one dose "cures" atherosclerosis and multiple doses caused atherosclerosis.

 

Edited by smithx, 04 April 2019 - 07:18 PM.

[Rocket]

Yes, that's exactly my point. It doesn't make any sense. But that's what the research paper which is the basis for everyone wanting to get this drug is saying. Their data shows that 1 dose worked wonders but more doses were much worse.

This means that all the results are suspect and are probably due to too-small a sample size.

See my post about this here: https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=868255

Its almost as if the paper were written by this doctor...

Attached Files

•  latest.jpeg   27.35KB   0 downloads

[jond071112]

The protein tyrosine phosphatase 1B inhibitor MSI-1436 stimulates regeneration of heart and multiple other tissues
https://www.nature.c...1536-017-0008-1

MSI-1436 Is Trodusquemine

 

https://scientificam...her-body-parts/

[mikey]

Yes, that's exactly my point. It doesn't make any sense. But that's what the research paper which is the basis for everyone wanting to get this drug is saying. Their data shows that 1 dose worked wonders but more doses were much worse.

 

This means that all the results are suspect and are probably due to too-small a sample size.

 

See my post about this here: https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=868255

 

Could it be that there is a U-shaped dose-response curve, as there is with the majority of essential nutrients?

 

For instance, iron intake consistently below the RDAs and above the Tolerable Upper Limits forms a U-shaped, dose-dependent risk/benefit/risk curve. Please see attachment.    Iron - RDAs and ULs .pdf   135.21KB   2 downloads

Edited by mikey, 16 July 2019 - 02:39 AM.

[smithx]

Slightly off topic, but perhaps a good (inexpensive and easily available) substitute for Trodusquemine is palmitoleic acid, which reduced arterial plaque by 45% in 12 weeks in a rat model. See:

 

https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=876590

 

 

 

Edited by smithx, 16 July 2019 - 09:54 PM.

[mikey]

If Linus Pauling recommended already much more comprehensive supplementation for maintaining good health only, anything less isn't Paulings protocol against CVD. At the https://vitamincfoundation.com/forum/, I saw many turning up disappointed, because they found it didn't worked. On being ask it always turned out they mistook Rath's later devised Mini-protocol.

 

However, even that is still much more comprehensive, just has mini-doses and other ingredients compared to Paulings original recommendations. However what you consider above Pauling's protocol is really an insult to Linus Pauling. For which I only can think of one reason, the continued discredit to this man even many years after his death.

 

These later Doctors who came later, but only subtracted (except items which weren't available at the time) - you should be able to give their names. Please do, so that such irresponsible charlatans can be identified.
 

 

I was around for it. My biochemist father enjoyed a visit with "the Pope," Dr. Pauling.

 

I saw Rath as a self-aggrandizing chap, not someone to follow.

 

I can assume that if Pauling lived today he would be considering the biochemistry that has been updated. He died at 93, which was a considerable age at the time.

 

Unfortunately, after his passing, The Linus Pauling Institute began to "water-down" what Pauling himself applied. LPI has become conventional, where Dr. Pauling was anything but. 

 

He won two Nobel prizes and was pointed out at one conference by Albert Einstein, who said, "Now there's a true genius." 

 

Yes, this all is off-topic. A group buy of trodusquemine has fallen due to its extreme cost/unavailability. This forum has become more focused on reversing plaque, so perhaps a moderator should change the name, although I will miss a focus on trodusquemine

For all to consider, I am investigating the microbiome, because a somewhat credible source said that two residents of the human microbiome can produce a significant amount of trodusquemine. This is an area to explore.

I will comment on misunderstandings about vitamin K in another post.

Kind regards.

Edited by mikey, 22 July 2019 - 09:47 PM.

[mikey]

Slightly off topic, but perhaps a good (inexpensive and easily available) substitute for Trodusquemine is palmitoleic acid, which reduced arterial plaque by 45% in 12 weeks in a rat model. See:

 

https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=876590

 

12 weeks in a rat equals something like 40 years to a human. Omega-7, palmitoleic acid, is a supplement I'll continue to take every day for this reason. Consistency is king.

 

Also, note that vitamin K2 (MK4) was shown to reverse arterial plaque in rats by 37% in 6 weeks, which is like 20 years to a human.

 

IMPORTANT: MK4 lasts in the human body for about 8 hours and requires dosing at 15 mg three times a day. MK7 is a better option.

MK7 is detected in the human body for three days and requires dosing at 180-360 mcg day, but shows no toxic dose, so I take a 300-500 mcg a day. I occasionally include MK4, knowing that it has value for a short time.

 

I remember reading a comparative study that showed no difference in tissue-specific effects for MK4 and MK7. If I had more time I would locate it and post the hyperlink because I continue to see MK4 being promoted, when it is a less desirable meniquinone than MK7. 

[Daniel Cooper]

12 weeks in a rat equals something like 40 years to a human. Omega-7, palmitoleic acid, is a supplement I'll continue to take every day for this reason. Consistency is king.

 

Also, note that vitamin K2 (MK4) was shown to reverse arterial plaque in rats by 37% in 6 weeks, which is like 20 years to a human.

 

IMPORTANT: MK4 lasts in the human body for about 8 hours and requires dosing at 15 mg three times a day. MK7 is a better option.

MK7 is detected in the human body for three days and requires dosing at 180-360 mcg day, but shows no toxic dose, so I take a 300-500 mcg a day. I occasionally include MK4, knowing that it has value for a short time.

 

I remember reading a comparative study that showed no difference in tissue-specific effects for MK4 and MK7. If I had more time I would locate it and post the hyperlink because I continue to see MK4 being promoted, when it is a less desirable meniquinone than MK7. 

 

 

The problem with these rat studies is that rats seem very much not prone to getting atherosclerosis.  You have to genetically design them to get it or you have to feed them very high fat diets that they almost never consume naturally.

 

Given that rats really "don't want to have atherosclerosis", it seems that most interventions work pretty well in reversing it in them.  Many of these interventions don't seem to pan out in humans unfortunately.

 

Are there any human studies that show a good effect in humans for vitamin K (mk4 or mk7) halting or reversing atherosclerosis?  I looked several years ago and the only thing I could find were rat studies and human population studies (which aren't great at teasing out cause and effect - too many confounding factors).

 

I know there was that human study underway at the University of Maastricht.  It should have completed a year or two ago but I haven't seen anything published (though I haven't looked in awhile).  I did converse with one of the authors but he wouldn't talk about any of the findings.

 

This is really off topic for this thread btw.  We have a thread on reversing arterial plaque.  It was started by a really swell guy if I recall  .

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 23 July 2019 - 02:37 PM.