22 replies to this topic

[OP2040]

Hi all,

 

There has been a lot of interest in substances that reverse atherosclerosis.  It seems the list of such substances grows by the day.  I have grown convinced that a dysfunctional or misfiring immune system is at the center of both atherosclerosis and hypertension. It has been known for decades that hypertension can be avoided or reversed by inhibiting the immune system.  It is also known that things like inflammation (CRP) and Immune reaction (WBC count) can be better actual predictors of risk than cholesterol, for example.

 

Anyway, there are couple intriguing studies that show the substance 2-HOBA (2-Hydroxybenzylamine) can prevent or reverse these conditions much further upstream and therefore better.  The first study shows that it prevents or reverses hypertension in mice given angiotensin.  Another, older study shows that it can prevent Alzheimer's, which we are now finding is also driven to disease state by immune dysfunction.

 

http://www.sciencema...at-hypertension

 

https://www.research..._in_hApoE4_Mice

 

I do not think this is the silver bullet by any means.  But it does target probably the main cause of immune over-reaction, called isoketals (oxidized lipids),  Until we can get restoration of the immune system or true age reversal, this is a great targeted approach for the biggest killers out there.

 

The best part is that it is nothing more than a derivative of Buckwheat, and therefore relatively cheap.  By all means start chowing down on Buckwheat, couldn't hurt.  But I took the liberty of getting a quote from a Chinese company.   There is none of the usual B.S. as with the more synthesized chemicals.  I got an actual quick response and a quote for $500/KG.  Since this acts to inactivate isoketals, it probably won't need to be taken constantly, but periodically.  And I don't think anyone needs a Kilo of this right away, I personally would like to get 200G of that, meaning I need 4 other interested people.  I haven't run the HED on the mouse studies just yet but will do so as soon as I see some interest.

 

 

[OP2040]

There is actually already a clinical trial for 2-HOBA for the prevention of Alzheimer's

https://iadrp.nia.ni...uation-humans-0

 

if you want to wait until 2082 when the clinical trial is complete and this natural derivative is locked down in patent disputes, by all means.

 

We can add life extension in worms to the list:

http://news.vumc.org...-worm-lifespan/

Yes, salicylamine is another name for it.

 

Given all this, the price and the obvious safety profile, the question is really more like why isn't everyone already taking this?

 

[Daniel Cooper]

Great topic.

 

Since this is a compound found naturally in buckwheat seeds (in what sorts of quantities I don't know) it should be possible to market this as a natural supplement (even if synthetically derived).  Perhaps we could develop some interest from one of the specialty supplement makers (RevGenetics perhaps).

 

I would be interested in 200g if we can get it tested and verified for purity.

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 01 October 2018 - 10:01 PM.

[OP2040]

Great idea Daniel. I know nothing about the supplement industry. I wonder if it would be possible for us to brand and market it, make some money from it.

I’ve never gotten anything tested, but assuming you just take a sample and send it to some service, it sounds fine, assuming it’s not too expensive.

Interestingly, when you search Salacylimide on Amazon, it comes up as an ingredient for some old timey pain relievers. I’m sure even if I could explain the difference between salacylamine and
-mide, there’s nothing out there showing that the latter would have the same effects. Still, would be great to be able to go straight to Amazon to target this pathway.

Anyone else interested, this is low hanging fruit!!

[Daniel Cooper]

2-Hydroxybenzylamine and Salicylamide (which indeed is an old time pain reliever related to aspirin) are similar but not quite the same.
 
 
 
2-Hydroxybenzylamine

 

Salicylamide

 

Note the double bond oxygen hanging off the amine group on the salicylamide.  I have no idea of the importance or unimpotance of that difference.  Salicylamide should be cheap and readily available, but it is not quite the same as 2-Hydroxybenzylamine.

 

 

 

[OP2040]

Though it was studied somewhat, there is very little new research on salicylamide. However, there are no less than 3 anti-hypertensives derived from the molecule. I don’t want to derail the thread, but it could have similar effects, not studied because it’s already on the market.

Back to 2-hoba...

[OP2040]

To confuse matters, the quote I got is for Salicylaldehyde, which also seems to be yet another name for 2-hoba.  I am actually ready to order if we can work something out.  I will even take the remainder if we can't find anyone else.  I guess we just need to get past these few hurdles:

1. Find out if this substance is the same as the ones in the studies (I'm quite sure it is, but..)

2. Find a way to test once it is shipped

3. Payment and delivery, preferably I would like to have it delivered directly to both of us separately rather than having to reship.

 

I don't want to be pushy, but I will probably push forward with it alone if it takes too long.  That being said, I think there would be later rounds that people can join as well.

[Daniel Cooper]

Once again, very similar but not quite the same molecule as 2-HOBA.  Compare to above.  Salicylamide is actually closer, since this of course isn't an amide.

 

 

Salicylaldehyde

 

[OP2040]

Yes, it looks like I need to do another search on Alibaba.

 

There is one still available @ $1/Gram.  I just sent an inquiry, and also asked if there are any price breaks fro bulk orders.

Edited by OP2040, 02 October 2018 - 03:37 PM.

[OP2040]

Compare that with a typical American firm for which the quote is about almost $200/G.

[micro2000]

Interesting find. Salicylamine should have good bioavailability, unlike many nutraceuticals. Seems to share a mechanism of action with pyridoxamine.

[OP2040]

Still waiting on the quotes.  It is holiday week in China, and the one contact said they will get back to me after that. 

[OP2040]

Interesting find. Salicylamine should have good bioavailability, unlike many nutraceuticals. Seems to share a mechanism of action with pyridoxamine.

 

While I am waiting, I decided to read up on Pyridoxamine.  I probably shouldn't have, as all it did was make me angry.  This is a hugely valuable supplement that could help a lot of people, and it's stuck in patent limbo hell.  More proof that the system is broken and the anti-aging community needs to be a political movement, not just a scientific one.

 

I still like salicylamine's potential more than anything else I've found related to isoketal scavenging.  Working with the Chinese companies is proving to be better in some respects (pricing/availability) and worse in others (less competent).  I hope that lack of competence does not reflect in the actual product quality that is eventually purchased. 

[OP2040]

OK guys, I finally got a price.  Unfortunately, it is still pretty expensive @ 140/G, but still worth trying IMO.  I was told there are price breaks for larger quantities, so I'm requesting those quotes as well.  I guess if it's still expensive, I am now interested to know if this would work intermittently.  In other words, if it scavenges isoketals, how long can it be expected before they build up again.  These are open scientific questions and the study I was citing does not continue for long enough to see if the effect has any staying power.  I guess it would depend on whether the cause of the isoketal formation in the first place is still active.  Another open question.  But even unanswered, I am still up for a round just to see what happens.

[John250]

2-Hydroxybenzylamine and Salicylamide (which indeed is an old time pain reliever related to aspirin) are similar but not quite the same.



2-Hydroxybenzylamine


Salicylamide


Note the double bond oxygen hanging off the amine group on the salicylamide. I have no idea of the importance or unimpotance of that difference. Salicylamide should be cheap and readily available, but it is not quite the same as 2-Hydroxybenzylamine.

Would this be it?

https://racehorsemed...njection-100ml/

[Daniel Cooper]

Would this be it?

https://racehorsemed...njection-100ml/

 

 

Alas no.  Salicylamide will be closer since amides and amines only differ by that one double bond oxygen.  Saliclamide may very well have similar properties to 2-HOBA since they are so close chemically, but without someone testing that we would never know.

 

BTW - If I'm not mistaken a true alternate name for 2-HOBA would be salicylamine (amine not amide).  I had an undergrad chemistry degree long long ago.  It's a bit rusty but looking at this stuff is bringing bits of it back.

 

Sodium Salicylate 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 10 October 2018 - 06:44 PM.

[OP2040]

ok, guys,

This is make or break time.  The latest quote is $3500/kg or 3.50/G.  Still very expensive, but not out of the realm of possibility for experimenting.  I believe that is with a price break built in, which means to get the cost savings we are in group buy territory here.  I wouldn't blame anyone for bowing out due to price, but I'd probably be in for 200G worth.  Considering how enthusiastic I am, it probably means we will have to split this thing six ways to Sunday to get the order done.  Let me know what y'all think...

[OP2040]

No interest?

I guess I'll file this one away on the wish list.

[Benko]

Did you find a way to get it tested to find out a. If you are getting what you ordered and b. What contaminants you are getting? Finding out what process they are using might be helpful (probably more to Daniel cooper than I) with knowing what kinds of contaminants to expect.

What is the minimum you would need to order and what sort of dosages were you planning to take?

Thanks

[OP2040]

I've decided that it was silly to go down the salacylamine route as it's much harder to find.  Pyradoxamine is cheap and easily available on alibaba, listed as

Pure Vitamin B6 Pyridoxamine dihydrochloride.  $50-200.Kilo

 

 

I would prefer to find a US source, but it looks like they have it pretty much locked down.  Let me know what you guys think.

 

 

[Ovidus]

I've decided that it was silly to go down the salacylamine route as it's much harder to find.  Pyradoxamine is cheap and easily available on alibaba, listed as

Pure Vitamin B6 Pyridoxamine dihydrochloride.  $50-200.Kilo

 

 

I would prefer to find a US source, but it looks like they have it pretty much locked down.  Let me know what you guys think.

 

Thanks so much for all the work and the effort

How much of it would one need to consumer and shall it be taken continuously or is intermittent use probably sufficient?

[OP2040]

I don't think I would take it continuously just due to cost and annoyance of having to go through alibaba.  I would try intermittently, the idea being that perhaps there is a vicious cycle of immune response to these reactive species that can be broken.  I have no reason to believe that it will work, but it would also be interesting to see if it worked just for time of use.  That would mean that we found the right target.  And once you find the right target for something, there's always more than one way to intervene.

 

Anyway, I got the quote back from alibaba.  It is a little more expensive than I quoted.  Basically $150@1kg and 256@2kg.  I might do the 1KG, but I'm not sure about a group buy.  I have no experience and don't want to re-ship.  Let me know what you guys think.

[OP2040]

Well, I guess if you wait long enough everything comes to pass.  This is actually in the supplement chain now, with tartary buckwheat growers specifically for that purpose.  It's not ideal as this is the only current supplier I could find.

 

https://bigboldhealt...htb-rejuvenate/

 

As you can see, it's super-expensive.  It also contains a bunch of other stuff that I don't need, don't want or already use.  I have no idea why supplement companies do this, I wager it's so that can claim some sort of value-added and charge exorbitant prices.  Finally, there is the issue of it not being standardized, so we really have no idea how much 2-hydroxybanylamine is in there.

 

Nevertheless, I did bite the bullet and purchased one bottle to do a trial of it for a couple months.  The way I see it is if I see any results at all, then at least I know it works in theory and could pursue it more aggressively.

 

We never really had a discussion of what this stuff would be good for.  Well, if we put in terms of aging it would target the advanced glycation end-product/RAGE/inflammation aspect of aging,  Specifically, it is a scavenger of reactive carbonyls.  Reactive carbonyls are the results of excess ROS/etc. that modify proteins to become highly reactive.  So it would also be part of the "proteostasis" aging pathway.  These reactive modified proteins cause all sorts of inflammatory issues and result in AGE's being formed in the ECM.  So it's a great target for any inflammatory aging disease, hypertension in particular.

 

I wouldn't say it gets to the exact root cause, but pretty darn close, and a good choice while we wait for crosslink breakers or Thioredoxin/TXnip pathway interventions.

 

If this works the way I'm hoping, I really want to pursue Daniels idea of creating our own supplement by whatever means available.