46 replies to this topic

[dosquito]

I just want to caution you guys about the dangers of excess collagen. Do some research. It’s not a joke.

[Phoebus]

I just want to caution you guys about the dangers of excess collagen. Do some research. It’s not a joke.

 

 

such as...? 

 

got any more info on that? 

[dosquito]

all sorts of fibrotic disorders involve collagen. There’s some speculation that it’s involved in peyronies, for example. just google dangers of excess collagen.

[OP2040]

I think what dosquito is referring to is that collagen deposition is a hallmark of fibrotic diseases in general.  As part of the inflammatory process that gets out of control as we age, or that cannot be healed in a timely manner, the body's backup plan is often to deposit excess collagen in the ECM, presumably in an attempt to stabilize the area.  Since we have lost the regenerative capacity at that point, instead of stabilizing, the collagen deposition along with fibrotic disease continues.

 

Like so many similar debates on this forum, it is all speculation though.  It is similar to the debate about cholesterol.  We know that cholesterol is not the disease itself, it is only when cholesterol is oxidized and foam cells form, etc that it becomes a problem.  But most people, including the establishment, have dropped the idea that eating cholesterol directly results in plaque formation, there is no evidence for that at all.  It should be the same with collagen.  Unless you currently have a fibrotic disease state in your body, then eating collagen should not cause any problems, and you will get the benefits.

 

What's missing in all these discussions is that diseases are processes, not 1:1 things.  The key with collagen is that we need to know how to make sure it is doing it's job in initiating a regenerative process, and not collagen deposition.  I would say that if you are under 60 and have  no serious inflammatory conditions, then you are probably safe.  But inflammation is key here.  And technically speaking, I personally think macrophage polarization to M2 is the key to whether these things will work or not.

[nickdino]

Phoebus, which specific products do you recommend and/or use yourself?
I've noticed that i would be using a lot less of biocell or uc2 than what i'm using now which is one scoop of neocell 1&3. By the way, i like to mix it in a glass of my selfmade milk-kefir, is that (dis)advantageous?

a lot of this research is surprisingly new, one of the studies I linked here just came out this month.

Its odd that collagen hasn't been studied that much, but it hasn't

Biocell is my go to brand. It is low molecular weight collagen, making it easier to absorb





interesting, got any articles to link?

[nickdino]

I have been taking biocell collagen, 5 - 10 g/day, for about 4 weeks now.

It has very noticable affects on joint pain and a pleasantly surprising benefical effect on my face skin. Less wrinkles, and firmer tighter skin. Biocell is type II only.

I would like to a see a study that compare placebo vs CI vs CII vs CIII and see which collagen type is most effective in various conditions. I have looked by cant find such a study.

Yes exactly, its easy for a company to prove that collagen does SOMEthing but is it better than regular?

[OP2040]

I was thinking of making a face mask recipe for my girlfriend.  She is always asking me for advice on things she finds online (e.g. Amazon).   When I look at some of these formulations it's like they kind of have a clue but then just start adding in random things, or missing very important potential ingredients.  So here is the start of the mask I would like to make, and I'd love to hear your opinions on it, and what might be added or take away to make it better.

 

1.  Obviously Collagen - I may add in extra glycine since I have it and since glycine is proven to be anti-aging, not just good for skin)

2.  Olive Oil  - We all know about the benefits of olive oil, but this will also be used to make it into a paste

3.  Hyalauronic acid - This one requires some extra considerations.  It is very, very important for skin regeneration.  But it is also important as a delivery mechanism.  The delivery depends on the molecular weight.  I think it needs to be a low molecular weight to be able to penetrate.  Like all potentially regenerative therapies, it can exacerbate cancer in a damaged environment.  The inclusion of the other factors listed here should help with that, although the etiology of skin cancer is almost alwasy due to sun damage so I'm not overly concerned.

4. Curcumin - this is probably the most broad-based anti-inflammatories since it acts on so many different pathways (COX, LOX, etc., etc.)  The assumption here is that one of the reasons regeneration doesn't happen with age is the increasingly overactive inflammatory balance.  Take periodontal disease for example.  It has been shown that the immune system reaction is one of the main causes of damage, and also creates the environment for the bacteria to further damage tissue.  Eliminating these inflammatory immune over-reactions is a necessary condition for regeneration IMHO.

 

There you have it, fairly simple.  What am I missing?  Also, delivery is hugely important, and another reason I don't trust cosmetic formulations.  Most of them don't have any ingredient that would lead me to believe the substance will get delivered to where it is needed.  Would love to hear your opinions on delivery mechanisms as well.  I have considered derma-rollers or microneedling as it should have the added benefit of of inducing all the repair signaling necessary for regeneration.  Have at it... 

 

Edited by OP2040, 12 November 2018 - 10:58 PM.

[osris]

So how many grams of collagen should we take for skin benefits - 1 gram (as the quoted study above suggests) or 6 grams? Collagen isn’t cheap so obviously if 1 gram will confer skin benefits then why take 6 grams?

Edited by osris, 11 December 2018 - 01:53 PM.

[xEva]

Aren't all these studies financed by the makers of the collagen supps? Or is there an 'independent' study?

[KBAnthis]

In my own trials with collagen I have noticed a few things that benefited me. I have tried Fortigel - 500 grams in 10 gram doses, and also for about 3 years now I have taken Custom Collagen at the rate of about 10 grams or so a day. Sometimes I do take more, like an extra 5 grams or even a total of 20 grams throughout the day but it is rare. Be warned collagen can cause constipation. Be sure to get plenty of fiber. I eat black lentils daily which is a good source of fiber. Black beans woulod be a good source also. Both these contain anthocyanidins which have great benefits. I injured my knee by driving to much when I was a taxi driver, and wore heavy large boots in the winter. Being a very tall and large person I didn't fit into the car ideally so it complicated my positioning on operating the pedals. After injuring my knee from to much stress on the joint I rested for about 2 years. I had trouble with it the entire time and have had problems with it occasionally. Collagen and at least 2 grams of vitamin c a day has helped. I tried hyaluronic acid and it helped but I enjoy pine bark extract more. When I tried them together I had way to much synovial fluid , my hands were swollen and it was rather comical. I wasn't in pain when I walked though. I now prefer pine bark extract and collagen with vitamin C. I take the pine bark and vitamin c together and the collagen I will do separate and sometimes add to coffee. It is very good tasting in coffee. I heard somewhere collagen increase NGF by 20% and I apologize for no reference.

The foritgel was expensive. They have studies and it was I think 2000 Dalton range of type 1 and 3 collagen from bovine skin. The custom collagen is 2-4000 Dalton range and is similar to Gelita Bioactive collagen peptides in Dalton weight. I enjoy the custom collagen since it is grass fed. Gelita is not as popular in the USA and I thought they were aimed to towards the European market if I recall correctly. I thought the cows came from Germany but I could be wrong. Either way the 2-4000 Dalton range is good for bones, tendons, joints, ligaments, skin, body toning. I may benefit from taking more than 10 grams a day and I might start again after I order more next month, if I can increase my fiber, which I may not be able to. I will have to experiment.  It has helped rebuild my knee and hip. The big things are mineral intake adequacy and zero unhealthy fats. JUST REALLY ZERO. Trans0fats block blood flow to the areas and are the main culprit to all blood flow injuries in the USA, that and combined with inadequate mineral and vitamin consumption with lack of antioxidants and green leafy vegetables, at least that is my opinion on the subject. 

My scientific opinion is that it is a great addition to a fiber rich, healthy, plant-based diet.  But make sure to get plenty of cod liver / fish oil , and beef liver for vitamin a and b-12, plus small amounts of butter helps. I do no more than a tablespoon a day. As I stand here typing at my make shift standing desk I am pain free, and am happy about that. I have several devastating injuries.  I do not take any medications.  They are not healed like it didn't happen but it has really improved my quality of life. 

I would love to see a lot of research on the matter, specifically put together in a video format as it gets rather strenuous rolling through pubmed studies. 

[Adaptogen]

Is there any consensus as to efficacy of UC-2 vs biocell for joint health? I assume both are a good bit more effective that simply using hydrolyzed collagen powder. I've seen mixed doses for biocell, usually in the 2 gram range, which makes it a good bit more expensive than the 40mg one per day UC-2 usually calls for.

[Rocket]

Nandrolone is a favorite collagen enhancer of mine. Excellent for joint issues. I have definitely healed some injuries with its usage.

 

[Malf]

Why not just drink fresh made bone broth soup?

[jroseland]

Why not just drink fresh made bone broth soup?

I heard this addressed in a podcast. Bone broth is very popular, healthy, and tasty but it's not a suitable replacement for Hydrolyzed Collagen for two reasons...

1. Bone broth is derived from whole animal parts and unfortunately few animals are free of toxins (lead, mercury, antibiotics, etc). This doesn't necessarily make bone broth unhealthy, but it's far from being a pure source of Collagen.
2. The gelatin in the broth is broken down in digestion, these collagen molecules are too large to be absorbed and utilized.

[Gal220]

such as...? 

 

got any more info on that? 

 

From thehealthbeat.com

 

The most commonly reported side effects of collagen supplements are hypercalcemia- too much calcium in the body (this occurs primarily with marine sources, however), constipation, bone pain, abnormal heart rhythms and allergic reactions in some since animal collagen is not exactly the same as human collagen.

 

Im taking the all in one ancient nutrition one, i got a good deal online for it though. 

 

I been taking it a while now, no adverse effecst that i can tell. Seems to help with gray hair as well.

[Astera]

A nice science-based podcast on collagen and a summary of the clinical evidence for health benefits on skin and joint health here - quite surprising how positive the evidence is!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Astera, 14 March 2021 - 07:28 AM.

[ironfistx]

Let's have more of this conversation.

 

Let me share my experiences with collagen.

 

I have a lot to add since my other threads years ago.

 

Where to begin.

 

I have been a fan of Neocell collagen for years but the recent few batches I've gotten have smelled like chlorine, really strongly.  They were one of only 3 brands that tested free of heavy metals in 2020.

 

With NeoCell, I notice my skin becomes rather soft, especially on my lower back and forehead.  This was not an expected benefit, and it happens whenever I start using it again.

 

My biggest question with NeoCell is, they seem to have 3 different versions (sizes) of "Super Collagen."  One is 7oz, one is 14oz, and one is 21.2oz.  The 7 and 14 are red jars, the 21.2 is blue.  The only different at first seems to be the serving size.  The two red bottles are 10g and the blue is 20g.  But upon further inspection, something doesn't appear normal.  The sodium in each is 50mg.  How could doubling the serving size be the same amount of sodium?  Furthermore, the prices are weird.  The 14oz is NORMALLY 2x the price of the 7oz, which sounds good.  But the big container is much cheaper.

 

For example.

 

7oz is usually $14.

 

14oz is usually $26.

 

21oz is usually $28.

 

That makes no sense.  AND, the reviews online say that the blue one has no benefits compared to the red ones.  But, messaging the company received a response saying they are the same.

 

Anyway... other than the recently nasty chlorine smell (blue), I have no other real comments.  It still makes my skin super soft.  Like super soft.  Seems consistent.

 

Now let's talk about Great Lakes.  I used their collagen for years.  It decreased the discomfort in my elbow (I have Grade 2 chondral fissuring).  Then, they changed their formula.  It was a different color, didn't mix well, and didn't limit pain.  I made a thread here with pictures. https://www.longecit...lakes-collagen/

 

I stopped completely using Great Lakes collagen years ago.

 

Ok, now let's talk about Gelita.  Gelita is the German company that makes Verisol, Tendoforte, Fortigel and others.  After more than 10 years I finally found a place to get Fortigel in the US with no added bulk.  I have been messaging everyone, including Gelita asking if I could buy it from them, for over a decade.  There are a few companies selling it in the US, but usually it's blended with other things I do not want, including artificial sweeteners.

 

I have to import it from Canada, and shipping is expensive.  The brand is Canprev, there are two stores online that mail to the US for reasonable shipping.  I'll post if you can't find them.

 

Verisol is available in the US from Lindberg and Costco.  I order from these.

 

Verisol is for skin.  Truthfully, there are studies saying it reduces wrinkle depth at 2.5g per day and even more at 5g per day.  This is a really low dose.  I have taken Verisol for years.  I do not notice anything but assume it works.  It does not make my skin feel different, unlike NeoCell.

 

I also take Fortigel and Tendoforte.  Fortigel is for joints, Tendoforte is for tendons.  The weight is different.  3kDA for Fortigel and 2kDA for Tendoforte.  I am unsure if this makes a difference.

 

Gelita also makes other collagens, for muscle, bone, etc.  This makes no sense.  I specifically thought collagen DID NOT HELP MUSCLE because it was an incomplete protein, so how do they make a collagen for muscle?

 

Alright, now let's talk Type 2 collagen.

 

NeoCell makes a Type 2 collagen, Joint Complex, that is 2g per serving.  It also has a little glucosamine and chondroitin in it (old label, not listed on the new label) and 60mg hyaluronic acid.

 

BioCell makes a Type 2 collagen that is 1g per serving and has 100mg approximately of glucosamine and chondroitin, and 95mg hyaluronic acid.

 

I am unsure which is better or if there is a difference.

 

 

 

I have been taking biocell collagen, 5 - 10 g/day, for about 4 weeks now. 

 

It has very noticable affects on joint pain and a pleasantly surprising benefical effect on my face skin. Less wrinkles, and firmer tighter skin. Biocell is type II only. 

 

I would like to a see a study that compare placebo vs CI vs CII vs CIII and see which collagen type is most effective in various conditions. I have looked by cant find such a study. 

 

Question.  When you say 5-10g a day of biocell, do you mean 10-20 caplets a day?  Because 1g is 2 capsules.

 

 

I recently read that glucosamine stops the regeneration of cartilage.  This may be counterproductive.  Supposedly it stops the degradation of cartilage, but also restricts the rebuilding.  I made another thread about this.

Edited by ironfistx, 23 September 2024 - 03:04 AM.