217 replies to this topic

[xEva]

hi Wizard I confess I only skimmed the thread, so forgive me if I misunderstood something. But it occurred to me that you exaggerate the importance of "Heat Shock Protein", which, I believe, was named so only because it was observed in action for the first time after a culture was subjected to excess heat. I think this is one of many repair mechanisms that become activated in various conditions when cell proteins sustain damage (and not necessarily just because of heat).

 

re your idea that you could add 2-3 decades to the human lifespan, I doubt it. I think a species lifespan is predetermined by their genome and no activities like fasting or sauna can change that. I think the keys to aging lie in the milieu, i.e. some thus far unidentified signaling molecules in plasma that actively hinder a cell's ability to repair the damage it sustains, and so it starts to accumulate. (And I wonder if one  can sweat those pesky signaling molecules out-?). It's true that fasting and sauna upregulate cellular repairs and so will likely add some healthy years to a life (but decades? it'd be good but I don't think so). 

 

And Nate still wonders where the benefits of sauna lie. Consider this: people would not subject themselves to what may look like abuse, unless it made them feel euphoric afterwards.The traditional once a week banya or sauna induces euphoria that may last several days. That's why you'd wanna do it again, not because some study said it may be good for you. So, the question to ask about this or that method, but how does it make you feel?

 

Edited by xEva, 28 November 2018 - 11:16 PM.

[Nate-2004]

How am I wondering where the benefits of sauna lie? There's a slew of links to those benefits all throughout this thread.

 

https://commons.nmu....&context=theses

https://jamanetwork....8926.1516577841

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19014914

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5003801/

https://www.biorxiv....18/02/12/264044

https://www.nature.c...cles/emm2017299

http://jcs.biologist...pdf?with-ds=yes

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30273616

 

 

 

Many people will do anything to stay young and healthy. We're doing it. 

Edited by Nate-2004, 29 November 2018 - 06:11 AM.

[HighDesertWizard]

Hi xEva... I appreciate that you share your thoughts. I agree with things you say often. I disagree with you sometimes also. But focusing on the disagreement in posts can make for defensiveness and a reluctance to enage in discussion. I'm wrong all the time including already in this thread in 2 ways that I intend to correct but haven't gotten around to yet. I've got no ego need to be correct 100% of the time nor criticize you because you're not 100% all the time.

 

 

It was an offhand comment you made, xEva, that triggered a first thought in me that the "Heat Shock Benefit" trigger might be "Increase / time" related...

 

For triggering that insight in me, I'll always be grateful... Even if it's wrong...

 

And, by the way, give me a break, everyone else, think about it -->> Didn't Evolution HAVE TO take "Temp Increase / Time" seriously? 

 

Thank you, xEva, for triggering the insight...

 

I wish more readers of this thread would share the random thoughts they have so I'd be triggered like that more often.

 

---->>>> Think about it... Didn't Evolution HAVE TO take "Temp Increase / Time" seriously? 

 

 

And, BTW, this is among the new... "We're on the hunt for a study showing that..." .... "Temp Increase / Time" is important...

 

Try to keep up...

 

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 29 November 2018 - 06:19 AM.

[HighDesertWizard]

How am I wondering where the benefits of sauna lie? There's a slew of links to those benefits all throughout this thread.

 

Many people will do anything to stay young and healthy. We're doing it. 

 

Nate... It's clear from your posts that you're not wondering about the benefits of Sauna. I am impressed by your posts.

 

It's unfortunate that xEva has not read or misunderstood and/or mischaracterized the knowledge clearly shown in your posts.

[QuestforLife]

I have an observation to add.

 

I had a very hot, protracted bath two days in a row following on from one heavy (deadlift) weightlifting session, which occurred on the first day.

 

My recovery from weights was noticeably WORSE than I would usually expect. Muscle pain and inflammation was prolonged.

 

This suggests to me that HEAT is (as you'd expect) inflammatory. Cold would be the reverse, leading to faster recovery from exercise (i.e. benefits of ice baths). Also fits in with the link you posted a while up thread Wizard, where weights and rest gave better gains (but less heat shock activation) than weights and sauna.  Also fits with how anti inflammatories or anti oxidants help recovery from exercise (like an ice bath) but in some cases may reduce the benefits of adaptation.

 

Somewhat tangential perhaps, but might add a piece to the puzzle.

 

 

Edited by QuestforLife, 29 November 2018 - 09:37 AM.

[xEva]

I have an observation to add.

 

I had a very hot, protracted bath two days in a row following on from one heavy (deadlift) weightlifting session, which occurred on the first day.

 

My recovery from weights was noticeably WORSE than I would usually expect. Muscle pain and inflammation was prolonged.

 

This suggests to me that HEAT is (as you'd expect) inflammatory. Cold would be the reverse, leading to faster recovery from exercise (i.e. benefits of ice baths). Also fits in with the link you posted a while up thread Wizard, where weights and rest gave better gains (but less heat shock activation) than weights and sauna.  Also fits with how anti inflammatories or anti oxidants help recovery from exercise (like an ice bath) but in some cases may reduce the benefits of adaptation.

 

Somewhat tangential perhaps, but might add a piece to the puzzle.

 

sorry for your troubles, but let me guess: you did not finish your hot bath sessions with a cool shower, did you?

 

There seem too many misunderstandings in this thread. My argument with Nate was about how such "heat adaptation" sessions should be done, with me saying that they should end with cold and Nate saying no, this will negate the benefits.

 

As a support Nate offers the links that list the benefits of sauna (-?) But where did you see sauna finished without cold? Only because Rhoda does not talk about it -- maybe she simply does not know? Maybe this 'seemingly irrelevant part' was omitted from the studies? Look up their methods section, maybe it is mentioned in there. And Nate, seems you are not too keen on Russian experience. Fine, please find me a Finn who does not cool off after sauna.

 

 

 

Also, Quest@ hot bath is not the same as sauna.I think this could be because the sweating part is impaired in the bath -- meaning, even if it gets engaged in there, it cannot cool off the body. Sweating is a very important part of sauna, imo. 

[MikeDC]

It is not surprising that Heat shock protein’s beneficial effects are mediated with increased NAD+. Fasting and exercise also increase NAD+.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ock factor nad

[xEva]

Wizard, you sound offended -- I don't know how it happened and in what you found offense, I assure you this was not my intention, so please accept my apologies for inadvertently saying something I should not have.

 

About your thread, I noticed that the heading keeps on changing and now it is "An Ancient "Heat Shock" and OSKM Related Epigenetic Turn Initiates an Aging Process in Humans that can be Modulated". No comment on  "OSKM Related Epigenetic" but re heat shock protein, which was shown to be downregulated in C. elegans a few hours after it reached sexual maturity, that's the seminal study that showed that aging is part of the developmental program, just like growth and sexual maturation are -- in other words, that aging and the ensuing death are programmed.

 

So in this thread you're saying that you can modulate the program via upregulating the repairs through therapies like "heat adaptation"? I agree that whatever upregulates the repairs will slow down the programmed decline, but I disagree that the changes will be significant. I base my opinion on observation of a vast empirical evidence of use of fasting by all peoples throughout history and "heat adaptations"  traditions prevalent among people living in cold climates. Yes, these are very useful practices that have been found to promote health and longevity -- but never to a significant degree.

 

To this you seem to be saying that the ancients did not have science and, therefore, their traditions should not be trusted, coz they could have gotten some crucial details wrong -- and thus you're keen on finding a truly scientific method that will negate the aging program. Did I understand you right? 

 

If so, this is a common sentiment, especially among young people. Each generation goes through it and, more often than not, some succeed. I wish you good luck in your endeavor.

 

 

My take on aging is much different from yours. I think the jamming of the inherent repair mechanisms is accomplished via some paracrine signals that, in humans, originate in the brain (likely, in the part of hypothalamus that keeps track of time). These mysterious paracrine signals are the integral part of the cellular environment, the milieu that determines how a cell behaves (this is supported by heterochronic parabiosis studies, especially the ones that showed that old tissues, when transplanted into a young host, revert to a younger phenotype). So naturally I believe that  rejuvenation can be accomplished via identification of these signals and then finding ways of eliminating their impact.

 

Again, please accept my sincere apologies for saying whatever it was that offended you. Peace?

 

Edited by xEva, 29 November 2018 - 03:04 PM.

[Nate-2004]

A related article mentioning heat shock as a possible target for improving muscle function decline in astronauts.

 

https://www.telegrap...ageing-process/

 

 

A team from Liverpool will also be sending tubes of human muscles grown from stem cells to the ISS to see if ‘heat shock’ proteins could stop the inevitable decline of muscles.

In the cells of older people muscles fail to get stronger even when they exercise, which researchers think could be because of inflammation in the body. The ‘heat shock’ proteins may help to dampen down the impact, researchers believe.

 

P.S. Thermometer arrives Mon, will know if my temp goes up in the sauna on Tues.

Edited by Nate-2004, 30 November 2018 - 10:19 PM.

[HighDesertWizard]

I have an observation to add.

 

I had a very hot, protracted bath two days in a row following on from one heavy (deadlift) weightlifting session, which occurred on the first day.

 

My recovery from weights was noticeably WORSE than I would usually expect. Muscle pain and inflammation was prolonged.

 

This suggests to me that HEAT is (as you'd expect) inflammatory. Cold would be the reverse, leading to faster recovery from exercise (i.e. benefits of ice baths). Also fits in with the link you posted a while up thread Wizard, where weights and rest gave better gains (but less heat shock activation) than weights and sauna.  Also fits with how anti inflammatories or anti oxidants help recovery from exercise (like an ice bath) but in some cases may reduce the benefits of adaptation.

 

Somewhat tangential perhaps, but might add a piece to the puzzle.

 

Thanks for the experience share, QuestforLife. Accumulating dozens of different experiences could be very helpful. 

 

I'm not familiar with the literature about "Heat Shock" in detail (yet). But my take from the dozens of hours of browsing I've put in so far is that it is both inflammatory and anti-inflammatory. Posting the image below again is a reminder to myself as much as to anyone that this is true. No time for an evidence list at this moment.

 

 

 

2012, Opposing roles for heat and heat shock proteins in macrophage functions during inflammation: a function of cell activation state?

 

This pic posted in the opening post is worth considering again...

 

 

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 01 December 2018 - 05:58 PM.

[HighDesertWizard]

It is not surprising that Heat shock protein’s beneficial effects are mediated with increased NAD+. Fasting and exercise also increase NAD+.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ock factor nad

 

Mike... Yep... I like the diagram in the full text of that study link.

 

2017, The heat shock factor HSF1 juggles protein quality control and metabolic regulation

 

Transcriptional regulators often act as central hubs to integrate multiple nutrient and stress signals. In this issue, Qiao et al. (2017. J. Cell Biol. https://doi.org/10.1083/ jcb.201607091) demonstrate how heat shock factor 1 (HSF1) uncouples metabolic control from proteostatic regulation and unveils HSF1 as a critical transcriptional regulator of NAD+ metabolism.

 

 

 

 

 

A link to the impact of exercise was posted up thread. There are many links describing the relationship of calorie restriction to heat shock protein expression too. Here's one of them...

 

Effect of caloric restriction on the expression of heat shock protein 70 and the activation of heat shock transcription factor 1

 

The regulation of heat shock protein 70 (hsp70) expression is an excellent example of a cellular mechanism that has evolved to protect all living organisms from various types of physiological stresses; therefore, the reported age-related alterations in the ability of cells to express hsp70 in response to stress could seriously compromise the ability of a senescent organism in respond to changes in its environment. Because caloric restriction (CR) is the only experimental manipulation known to retard aging and increase the survival of rodents, it was of interest to analyze the effect of CR on the age-related alteration in the induction of hsp70 expression in rat hepatocytes. The effect of CR on the nuclear transcription of hsp70 gene in rat hepatocytes in response to various levels of heat shock was determined, and it was found that the age-related decline in the transcription of hsp70 at all temperatures studied was reversed by CR. Because the heat shock transcription factor (HSF) mediates the heat-induced transcription of hsp70, the effect of CR on the induction of HSF binding activity by heat shock was studied and found to arise from HSF1, which has been shown to be involved in the induction of HSF binding activity in other cell types. The age-related decrease in the induction of HSF1 binding activity in rat hepatocytes was reversed by CR, and did not appear to be due to an accumulation of inhibitory molecules with age. Interestingly, the level of HSF1 protein was significantly higher in hepatocytes isolated from old rats fed ad libitum compared to hepatocytes obtained from rats fed the CR diet even though the levels of HSF1 binding activity were lower for hepatocytes isolated from the old rats fed ad libitum. The levels of the mRNA transcript for HSF1 was not significantly altered by age or CR. Thus, the changes in HSF1 binding activity with age and CR do not arise from changes in the level of HSF1 protein available for activation.

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 01 December 2018 - 11:36 PM.

[HighDesertWizard]

sorry for your troubles, but let me guess: you did not finish your hot bath sessions with a cool shower, did you?

 

There seem too many misunderstandings in this thread. My argument with Nate was about how such "heat adaptation" sessions should be done, with me saying that they should end with cold and Nate saying no, this will negate the benefits.

 

As a support Nate offers the links that list the benefits of sauna (-?) But where did you see sauna finished without cold? Only because Rhoda does not talk about it -- maybe she simply does not know? Maybe this 'seemingly irrelevant part' was omitted from the studies? Look up their methods section, maybe it is mentioned in there. And Nate, seems you are not too keen on Russian experience. Fine, please find me a Finn who does not cool off after sauna.

 

 

 

Also, Quest@ hot bath is not the same as sauna.I think this could be because the sweating part is impaired in the bath -- meaning, even if it gets engaged in there, it cannot cool off the body. Sweating is a very important part of sauna, imo. 

 

Hi xEva...

 

I've looked and cannot find a study that definitively speaks to the questions you raise. The best of them merely says this...

 

1989, Sauna, shower, and ice water immersion. Physiological responses to brief exposures to heat, cool, and cold. Part II. Circulation

 

Nine men were subjected to four temperature exposures: (A) sauna and head-out ice water immersion; (B) sauna and 15 degrees C shower; © sauna and room temperature; (D) head-out ice water immersion and room temperature. Exposures were repeated and ended with a 30-minute recovery. Heart rates were recorded continuously and blood pressures were determined six times during each experiment. Rate pressure products and indications of cardiac stroke work were calculated from the data. The results demonstrated decreased total peripheral resistance (TPR) to the blood flow in response to the heat of the sauna ©, with concurrent increase in cardiac oxygen demand and negligible increase in the stroke work. Cold exposures (D) increased the TPR. Cold did not increase the cardiac oxygen demand but increased the stroke work. The alternation of heat and cold (A) or cool (B) presented the most intensive strain on the heart.

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 02 December 2018 - 12:14 AM.

[HighDesertWizard]

Wizard, you sound offended -- I don't know how it happened and in what you found offense, I assure you this was not my intention, so please accept my apologies for inadvertently saying something I should not have.

Again, please accept my sincere apologies for saying whatever it was that offended you. Peace?

Hi xEva... No need to apologize. I wasn't offended at all. I've been busy at work and was tired when I wrote the note you responded to. And I left out a few positive sentences about your contributions at LongeCity. I appreciate your directness even if I disagree sometimes.

[1} About your thread, I noticed that the heading keeps on changing and now it is "An Ancient "Heat Shock" and OSKM Related Epigenetic Turn Initiates an Aging Process in Humans that can be Modulated". No comment on "OSKM Related Epigenetic" but re heat shock protein, which was shown to be downregulated in C. elegans a few hours after it reached sexual maturity, that's the seminal study that showed that aging is part of the developmental program, just like growth and sexual maturation are -- in other words, that aging and the ensuing death are programmed.

[2] So in this thread you're saying that you can modulate the program via upregulating the repairs through therapies like "heat adaptation"? [3] I agree that whatever upregulates the repairs will slow down the programmed decline, but I disagree that the changes will be significant. I base my opinion on observation of a vast empirical evidence of use of fasting by all peoples throughout history and "heat adaptations" traditions prevalent among people living in cold climates. Yes, these are very useful practices that have been found to promote health and longevity -- but never to a significant degree.

[4] To this you seem to be saying that the ancients did not have science and, therefore, their traditions should not be trusted, coz they could have gotten some crucial details wrong -- and thus you're keen on finding a truly scientific method that will negate the aging program. Did I understand you right?

[1] Yes. Somewhere up thread, I stated that I'd be changing the thread title to be as specific and bold a statement as possible that I feel is consistent with the literature. Sometime in 2019, I may change the abbreviation "OSKM" to "(N)OSKM" because, in fact, both NF-kB Activation and Inhibition have been shown as required for iPSC reprogramming.

[2] I believe the damage theory of aging has been decisively falsified by the fact of the existence of The Inflammatory Reflex and the fact that TIR's existence means that The Cytokine Theory of Disease has been validated. But I'm not fond of the phrase "programmed aging".

I strongly believe that the use of abstracted labels like "programmed aging" that can slow my open-minded thinking about evidence. Notice that I didn't say that the Cytokine Theory of Disease has been "proved". I wrote that it had been "validated" by the fact of the existence of TIR. And, in that, I'm merely quoting Kevin Tracey here.

[3] re: "never to a significant degree..." I've posted the diagram below a couple times upthread, but I've never posted it with dotted lines drawn in illustrating the survival probability benefit achieved in the WILD-TYPE HUMANS who spent more time triggering heat shock protein 70 than others. I emphasize the words WILD TYPE to differentiate the people in the study from who we are. And who are we?

We are people who are informed about that study and can act to more aggressively discover and then trigger the mechanism they triggered.

Do you really believe a 15-year survival probability benefit is not significant? (Note: I'm not talking about maximum lifespan.)

[4] Nope. That's not what I'm saying.

Actually, I've recently attributed non-trivial insight to the ancients at LongeCity regarding means for achieving greater health and longevity, including how to do that via triggering a mechanism in the hypothalamus.

I believe ancient traditions had insight into many significant techniques for increasing health and longevity, including the triggering of the "Heat Shock" response. The advantage science and technology provide us is that we can attempt to increase, to Optimize, the benefit of ancient techniques in ways they could not.

 

My take on aging is much different from yours. I think the jamming of the inherent repair mechanisms is accomplished via some paracrine signals that, in humans, originate in the brain (likely, in the part of hypothalamus that keeps track of time). These mysterious paracrine signals are the integral part of the cellular environment, the milieu that determines how a cell behaves (this is supported by heterochronic parabiosis studies, especially the ones that showed that old tissues, when transplanted into a young host, revert to a younger phenotype). So naturally I believe that rejuvenation can be accomplished via identification of these signals and then finding ways of eliminating their impact.

We agree that aging factors in the blood are critical for understanding aging.

But I think we know a lot about what these aging factors in the blood are and even how to aggressively go after them. An even bolder claim...

--> We know a lot about what these aging factors in the blood are and even how to aggressively go after them in The Way evolution has established that we go after them.

THAT is precisely what the science of The Inflammatory Reflex is about...

 

Cheers!

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 02 December 2018 - 03:10 AM.

[Nate-2004]

Back to inducing heat shock and this post may be premature but it's a part of my experimentation with sauna use and optimizing its effect on what we're trying to accomplish here. So I got my thermometer this morning but it's not in my gym bag yet, I'll be throwing it in there when I get home. We shall know for sure tomorrow assuming all goes as planned.

 

All that said, I have been wondering, since the studies have only ever been on Finnish style saunas of the kind my gym has as opposed to infrared, whether infrared accomplishes the exact same thing or not. If so what type of infrared? NIR, Far, Mid?

 

I've been wanting to have a sauna at home, having one at home would let me cancel my gym membership and just begin working out after I get home from work instead of trying to frantically squeeze it into my lunch break. Logistically it would be way easier and less pressure than having to cool off quick and get back to the office on time so I'm not sweating in my work clothes. Lot of issues with where work is, where home is, where the gym is, etc. Obviously it's far cheaper to build an infrared sauna at home than it is to build a finnish sauna. You can use a large grow tent, NIR lights and a far infrared carbon heater.  Is 20 mins in a homemade sauna the same positive effect as 20 mins in a Finnish style sauna?  Is increased internal body temp going to be the answer to that question?

Edited by Nate-2004, 03 December 2018 - 09:26 PM.

[HighDesertWizard]

Back to inducing heat shock and this post may be premature but it's a part of my experimentation with sauna use and optimizing its effect on what we're trying to accomplish here. So I got my thermometer this morning but it's not in my gym bag yet, I'll be throwing it in there when I get home. We shall know for sure tomorrow assuming all goes as planned.

 

All that said, I have been wondering, since the studies have only ever been on Finnish style saunas of the kind my gym has as opposed to infrared, whether infrared accomplishes the exact same thing or not. If so what type of infrared? NIR, Far, Mid?

 

I've been wanting to have a sauna at home, having one at home would let me cancel my gym membership and just begin working out after I get home from work instead of trying to frantically squeeze it into my lunch break. Logistically it would be way easier and less pressure than having to cool off quick and get back to the office on time so I'm not sweating in my work clothes. Lot of issues with where work is, where home is, where the gym is, etc. Obviously it's far cheaper to build an infrared sauna at home than it is to build a finnish sauna. You can use a large grow tent, NIR lights and a far infrared carbon heater.  Is 20 mins in a homemade sauna the same positive effect as 20 mins in a Finnish style sauna?  Is increased internal body temp going to be the answer to that question?

 

It's great, Nate, that you are close to systematically increasing heat shock protein expression in your self in a way shown to increase survival probability!

 

I've made progress too. Old dogs have trouble learning new tricks and my father felt uncomfortable using the PEMF mat. So I've taken it over and I'm happy with it. It feels great to lay on it while it's hot and some sweat is triggered.

 

I've been experimenting with various ways to increase my temperature quickly while laying on the mat. I have some temperature data but I hesitate to share until I've done everything I can to get it higher faster, and I know I can.

 

I'm also seriously thinking about purchasing one of Robert Dennis' micropulse.com spot-PEMF devices. Selfhacked.com's Joe Cohen finds great benefit in using it.

 

---

 

I take the point you make in your last paragraph. The point is to find an approach to triggering the "Heat Shock" response in a way that is as convenient and consistent with the flow of one's life as possible.

 

About the larger question of whether increased Heat Shock Protein (70), per se, is the key independent variable to focus on...

 

- > I now more strongly believe that it is and I'm prepared to provide an explanation, based in evidence, that this is the case. But several of the most potent arguments of that explanation are based in details about The Inflammatory Reflex.

 

One last point... The mere application of heat in various random ways is not especially likely to yield survival probability benefit. There are conditions and thresholds that require attention to achieve benefit and I've now got a short list of what those are. I'm finding that some details to be depicted in The Inflammatory Reflex slides I'll be generating for the next week are extremely helpful for clarifying and understanding the nature of these "Heat Shock" conditions and thresholds. 

 

Cheers!

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 04 December 2018 - 03:03 AM.

[Nate-2004]

So, unfortunately today when I got out of the sauna, I forgot to put the thermometer I brought to the gym in my mouth, went straight to the shower for 5 mins and came out to finish cooling off and realized I'd forgotten. I took my temperature by mouth anyway just to see if I still had a raised temp and no, weirdly it was 98.0F. Perhaps I'd waited too long or perhaps I'd already drunk cold water and that affected it. I don't know. I'll definitely remember tomorrow to take it right after leaving the sauna. The problem with taking it in the sauna is that the thermometer would be affected by the air temp inside.  I also don't know if my mouth will reflect the correct internal temp and attempting to do it rectally at a gym may result in some social issues. Plus I've never done it that way before. Arm pit may also reflect inaccurate results if my skin is just hot from the sauna.

 

Trying again tomorrow.

[Nate-2004]

Update: 

 

So this is weird and confounding. Today I get out of the sauna, go straight to the locker and put the thermometer in my mouth. The first recorded temp I get is 103.5F.  Not 30 seconds later I take it a second time and get a perfect 98.6, the third, same, different orifice. Is it possible for an internal temp to cool off that fast or was the first reading bad? 

[HighDesertWizard]

Update: 

 

So this is weird and confounding. Today I get out of the sauna, go straight to the locker and put the thermometer in my mouth. The first recorded temp I get is 103.5F.  Not 30 seconds later I take it a second time and get a perfect 98.6, the third, same, different orifice. Is it possible for an internal temp to cool off that fast or was the first reading bad? 

 

Great news that you had a chance to test. I have no idea what the data "ought" to look like.

 

How long were you in the Sauna?

 

We need you, me, and many others to do the same kind of testing. I'll do some Saunas too but I haven't yet so I don't know what the answer is to the following question.

 

-- > Is it possible to take your temperature several times while in the sauna?

[Nate-2004]

1. I was in the usual 20 mins or so.

2. No because the temp inside the sauna will affect the thermometer itself, more confounding factors.

3. The temp I get from mouth or rectal or armpit areas may just be superficial heat affected by the sauna and not true internal body temp.

4. I'm betting the only way to truly measure it would be to stick a long probe up my ass deep inside my intestine while I try to sit there in the sauna, with the cable going to somewhere outside the sauna measuring temp. That's gonna be um... very difficult.

[HighDesertWizard]

1. I was in the usual 20 mins or so.

2. No because the temp inside the sauna will affect the thermometer itself, more confounding factors.

3. The temp I get from mouth or rectal or armpit areas may just be superficial heat affected by the sauna and not true internal body temp.

4. I'm betting the only way to truly measure it would be to stick a long probe up my ass deep inside my intestine while I try to sit there in the sauna, with the cable going to somewhere outside the sauna measuring temp. That's gonna be um... very difficult.

 

LOL... Yep... Ok... it would be useful to know the temperature before you entered so the sauna impact on temperature can be measured. See study below.

 

The best explanation is always the one that can explain all the data until some or all of it is demonstrated to be incorrect. I'd bet that your data is accurate, which, by the way, isn't inconsistent with the study result below...

 

Human thermoregulation in sauna

Finnish sauna is heated by the radiation energy of an electrical or wood burning stove resulting in high air temperature, 80-100 degrees C, and low air humidity levels, 50-60 g/kg of air. Sauna bathing is divided into several 5-20 min sessions and between the sessions several minutes are spent at normal room temperature. Finnish sauna presents a heat load of 300-600 W/m2 of skin surface area. This increases mean skin temperature to 40-41 degrees C, causes strong heat sensations and starts thermoregulatory mechanisms. Evaporative heat transfer by sweating is the only effective channel dissipating heat from the body in sauna. Sweating is usually 0.6-1 kg/h and represents a heat loss of about 200 W/m2. The body cannot compensate for the heat load of sauna and the temperature of viscera begins to increase. A 30-minute stay in a sauna with a temperature of 80 degrees C increases rectal temperature by about 0.9 degrees C in adults whereas in children less intensive sauna (10 min at 70 degrees C) increases rectal temperature by 1.5 degrees C. The subjective feelings after Finnish sauna are usually described in positive terms such as "calm" and "pleasant".

[HighDesertWizard]

I'm feeling good about my general strategy for 2019...

• I've got a 2nd MyDNAge test kit and a 1st LifeLength Telomere Length test kit that I'll do at the same time by year-end.
• I'll record my data and other people's data in the Longecity.org Biomarker test program.
• I've got my major "Heat Shock" device in place (the PEMF mat), though, at some point, I will purchase this I.C.E.S. device at Micro-Pulse.com. I trust Joe Cohen at SelfHacked.com and he's extremely positive about the Micro-Pulse devices.
• I plan to write an email to the testing companies to ask for a break on price for several months for up to a year and more frequent testing.

Once that practical activity is close to done, I'll shift back to getting a handle on the larger science question the opening post discussed.

 

I hope I'll get help via posting here.

 

Actually... I've already begun that process... We can absolutely track with scientific advance and figure this out...

 

That's why I'm here...

 

 

Getting a handle on all this is a serious multi-year, multi-person project. A serious effort to get a handle on it requires a map of the process. Multiple levels and types of abstraction would be required to correctly and adequately depict the process. The image below is how today I envision the high-level process. I'm certain it's fundamentally flawed. But creating successive drafts that trigger Investigation, Criticism, and Enhancement is the only way to make progress.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 06 December 2018 - 03:28 PM.

[Nate-2004]

LOL... Yep... Ok... it would be useful to know the temperature before you entered so the sauna impact on temperature can be measured. See study below.

 

The best explanation is always the one that can explain all the data until some or all of it is demonstrated to be incorrect. I'd bet that your data is accurate, which, by the way, isn't inconsistent with the study result below...

 

Human thermoregulation in sauna

Finnish sauna is heated by the radiation energy of an electrical or wood burning stove resulting in high air temperature, 80-100 degrees C, and low air humidity levels, 50-60 g/kg of air. Sauna bathing is divided into several 5-20 min sessions and between the sessions several minutes are spent at normal room temperature. Finnish sauna presents a heat load of 300-600 W/m2 of skin surface area. This increases mean skin temperature to 40-41 degrees C, causes strong heat sensations and starts thermoregulatory mechanisms. Evaporative heat transfer by sweating is the only effective channel dissipating heat from the body in sauna. Sweating is usually 0.6-1 kg/h and represents a heat loss of about 200 W/m2. The body cannot compensate for the heat load of sauna and the temperature of viscera begins to increase. A 30-minute stay in a sauna with a temperature of 80 degrees C increases rectal temperature by about 0.9 degrees C in adults whereas in children less intensive sauna (10 min at 70 degrees C) increases rectal temperature by 1.5 degrees C. The subjective feelings after Finnish sauna are usually described in positive terms such as "calm" and "pleasant".

 

I will try again tomorrow! Without a probe though I worry it's all just inaccurate.  Strangely I run cold, most times I measure my temp it's on the low end, 97 in many cases. It's one reason why I'm interested in the cold thermogenesis. 

Edited by Nate-2004, 06 December 2018 - 05:45 PM.

[sthira]

Strangely I run cold, most times I measure my temp it's on the low end, 97 in many cases...

Same here. This may be of interest:

"Normal body temperature is 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit, right? Not so. There is no baseline for humans, and even if there was, it would be closer to 97.7 °F. Temperature also varies across the day, peaking in late afternoon and bottoming out in early morning..."

https://www.scientif...less-than-98-6/

Normal Oral, Rectal, Tympanic and Axillary Body Temperature in Adult Men and Women: A Systematic Literature Review,” by Märtha Sundlevander et al., in Scandinavian Journal of Caring Sciences, Vol. 16, No. 2; June 2002

A Critical Appraisal of 98.6 °F, the Upper Limit of the Normal Body Temperature, and Other Legacies of Carl Reinhold August Wunderlich,” by Philip A. Mackowiak et al., in JAMA, Vol. 268, No. 12; September 23–30, 1992

"Using Smartphone Crowdsourcing to Redefine Normal and Febrile Temperatures in Adults: Results from the Feverprints Study,” by Jonathan S. Hausmann et al., in Journal of General Internal Medicine. Published online August 13, 2018

[Nate-2004]

Same here. This may be of interest:

"Normal body temperature is 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit, right? Not so. There is no baseline for humans, and even if there was, it would be closer to 97.7 °F. Temperature also varies across the day, peaking in late afternoon and bottoming out in early morning..."

https://www.scientif...less-than-98-6/

Normal Oral, Rectal, Tympanic and Axillary Body Temperature in Adult Men and Women: A Systematic Literature Review,” by Märtha Sundlevander et al., in Scandinavian Journal of Caring Sciences, Vol. 16, No. 2; June 2002

A Critical Appraisal of 98.6 °F, the Upper Limit of the Normal Body Temperature, and Other Legacies of Carl Reinhold August Wunderlich,” by Philip A. Mackowiak et al., in JAMA, Vol. 268, No. 12; September 23–30, 1992

"Using Smartphone Crowdsourcing to Redefine Normal and Febrile Temperatures in Adults: Results from the Feverprints Study,” by Jonathan S. Hausmann et al., in Journal of General Internal Medicine. Published online August 13, 2018

 

All the more reason to take my temp before I get into the sauna and again after. Unfortunately today the sauna was broken :(

[HighDesertWizard]

I'm within a couple tenths of a degree Fahrenheit I can come to maxing out the increase to be achieved in 30 minutes by merely laying on my back on the PEMF heated mat after preheating close to its max temp (70^o C). I've pasted in a pic of the mat I'm using at the bottom of this post.

 

That's not to say a greater increase cannot be achieved. For example, In the data shown below, I didn't turn the PEMF function on until about 15 minutes into it. Perhaps having it on from the beginning would shoot the temp higher, or not. I'll find out.

 

I think getting it significantly higher in 30 minutes will require additional hacks applied at the same time. I know a couple that will probably work to get it 1 to 2 degrees higher within 30 minutes. I'll post once I get them implemented, sometime in 2019.

 

I've created a spreadsheet to record my temperature adventures around this. Here's a screenshot of the first entry.

 

 

 

 

Here's one pic of the 76" x 32" PEMF mat I purchased at eBay at this link. There are more pics at the link. "Used" mat is a synonym for Open Box mat. I saved several hundreds of dollars buying it "open box" and if I didn't know it was used, I wouldn't know that it was. I'm happy that I did.

 

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 09 December 2018 - 12:57 AM.

[Nate-2004]

Looking forward to your reports on the mat. I can't afford that right now in light of other expenses on my list.

 

As for my ongoing temperature experiment, today I measured again but again, forgot to measure prior to entering the sauna. I may take my temp several times throughout the day over the course of days as a baseline, not just at the gym. Today I got out of the sauna and it registered 99.9 F, but it took a couple tries due to errors on the device.

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 10 December 2018 - 09:16 PM.

[xEva]

I'm within a couple tenths of a degree Fahrenheit I can come to maxing out the increase to be achieved in 30 minutes by merely laying on my back on the PEMF heated mat after preheating close to its max temp (70^o C). I've pasted in a pic of the mat I'm using at the bottom of this post.

 

That's not to say a greater increase cannot be achieved. For example, In the data shown below, I didn't turn the PEMF function on until about 15 minutes into it. Perhaps having it on from the beginning would shoot the temp higher, or not. I'll find out.

 

I think getting it significantly higher in 30 minutes will require additional hacks applied at the same time. I know a couple that will probably work to get it 1 to 2 degrees higher within 30 minutes. I'll post once I get them implemented, sometime in 2019.

 

I've created a spreadsheet to record my temperature adventures around this. Here's a screenshot of the first entry.

 

 

 

 

Here's one pic of the 76" x 32" PEMF mat I purchased at eBay at this link. There are more pics at the link. "Used" mat is a synonym for Open Box mat. I saved several hundreds of dollars buying it "open box" and if I didn't know it was used, I wouldn't know that it was. I'm happy that I did.

 

 

 Wizard, does it induce sweating when you lie on it?

 

[HighDesertWizard]

Looking forward to your reports on the mat. I can't afford that right now in light of other expenses on my list.

 

As for my ongoing temperature experiment, today I measured again but again, forgot to measure prior to entering the sauna. I may take my temp several times throughout the day over the course of days as a baseline, not just at the gym. Today I got out of the sauna and it registered 99.9 F, but it took a couple tries due to errors on the device.

 

 

 Wizard, does it induce sweating when you lie on it?

 

 

I did another session on the mat closely replicating the temperature dynamics shown in that spreadsheet above.

 

-- > The net discovery, then, is that

• I can get my temp up 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit on the mat in 30 minutes if I let it warm close to its max temp before I lay on it.
   
• I do begin to sweat just a bit with that temperature increase, but not as much as likely needed to induce maximum benefit.

Some--not-demonstrated-as fact--beliefs that have and are drivning my action around this...

• There is a minimum temperature increase required from "Baseline" to induce maximum "Heat Shock" benefit
  • My hunch is that the temperature requirement is more about the increase-amount over "Baseline" rather than an absolute temperature. But this belief might be wrong.
• There is a maximum temperature increase or temperature-increase duration dose that is counter-productive during a single session.
  • The anecdotal experience QuestforLife shared upthread is an example of this suspected truth.
  • Thanks for doing the experiment and sharing your experience, QuestforLife!
• For a few reasons, I'm trying to trigger the temperature increase in a specific short length of time, 30 minutes.
  • This is an arbitrary-not-supported-by-specific-study-evidence hunch / goal.
• I need to get my temperature higher to induce the maximum benefit.
  • Inducing that maximum benefit will require a hack or two more on top of laying on the mat.
  • Hacks I've demonstrated in myself to work are about limiting heat loss while trying to increase temperature
• It's best to try to replicate the temperature increase dynamics of Sauna.
  • That's why anecdotal temperature increase data is important.
• The goal: Trigger a core body temperature increase of 3 degrees Fahrenheit.
  • I think it can be done. I've done it once.
  • I know the hack I'll try next to raise my temperature even more in 30 minutes

 

Why my focus on a mat and PEMF?

• I'm prioritizing the approaches that make consistent and easy daily access and habitual use possible and probable.

 

For reasons based in evidence, I believe

• The survival probability benefit shown in studies is due to
  • triggering the "Heat Shock" response and not to sweat, per se
    • sweat does de-tox, but detox, per se, is not sufficient to trigger the dramatic increase in survival probability shown in studies
• What's the evidence?
  • "... the Cytokine Theory of Disease has been validated".
    • so says Kevin Tracey, the premier scientist of The Inflammatory Reflex, in Approaching the Next Revolution? Evolutionary Integration of Neural and Immune Pathogen Sensing and Response
       
    • Memorize the following quote to fix in your mind, one of the top 5 facts all Longevity Science Enthusiasts ought to know...
      • "The cytokine theory of disease was validated in mammals, including humans, within a few years after early direct evidence became available that tumor necrosis factor (TNF) is a necessary and sufficient mediator of acute septic shock during infection"
    • that means NF-kB Inflammatory Cytokine Expression must be central to any explanation
  • "Heat Shock" can and does inhibit NF-kB Inflammatory Cytokine Expression

• An explanation of sweat being the necessary and sufficient condition for achieving the survival probability benefit we're talking about doesn't take into account the Cytokine Theory of Disease.
  • so I don't buy it

Cheers!

 

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 12 December 2018 - 02:33 PM.

[xEva]

Thanks Wizard that's very informative.

I don't know what's the most important aspect of sauna, but I'm certain you cannot extract/separate sweating from it. If you get your body hot enough, it will happen.

 

But I'm sure you're gonna try. Find some sweat inhibitors?

am curious to read about your experiences

[Nate-2004]

Another update on internal temp.

 

Baseline resting temp averages around 97F, post sauna temp averages 100F. This is not by armpit or mouth LOL