55 replies to this topic

[cat-nips]

Hahaha.  That article's weak, and an attempt to use scare tactics weakly disguised as scientifc to influence you to purchase their remedy.  Just looked more closely and noticed he misspells Taurine incorrectly 3 times.  Urine analysis should be urinalysis.  This is supposed to be a semi medical article, after all.  I'm sure there are more typos and mistakes, but I'm not bothering to look past the ad for their "solution".

Edited by cat-nips, 14 December 2018 - 06:46 PM.

[John250]

That's what I thought as well. via fMRI, SPECT, maybe PET. Which is why the numbers in that article are strange and how would you be able to make a determination on that through urinalysis anyway? Would definitely be cool if you could though.

An organic acids test can help with some neurotransmitters by seeing your results of metabolites like:

Vanilmandelate
Homovanillate
5-Hydroxyindoleacetate
Kynurenate
Quinolinate
Picolinate

https://www.trueheal...= Organic acid

[MankindRising]

I don’t think it will be a problem for you as it’s not so much libido it’s more erection quality for men. Agmatine slightly increases testosterone so for women it should help much more for libido.

Agmatine acts on the brain too by opioid means (namely opioid potentation), what does this mean? Well a high opioid state signals sedation/satisfaction. Ask yourself when you are fully satisfied allready and pain free (both mental perception of harm/hurt and actually feeling less pain) do you still want sex as bad? the answer is simply no.

 

Also agmatine acts as a calcium channel blocker, if you look at sides from stuff such as gabapentin/pregabalin you will see some (minority of users) experiencing increased libido while the majority experiences a drop in libido. Pregabalin and other calcium channel blockers actually modulate mesolimbic/nac dopamine in variety of ways, some calcium blockers increase dopamine in certain areas, while decrease it in others.

While there is no way to predict the net result they clearly do have an influence. Also as calcium channel inhibition occurs while gabapentinoid concentrations are on a rising trend, calcium channels actually 'potentiate' during decreasing gabapentinoid concentrations. This most likely also explain side effects such as mania, calcium release forces neurotransmitter release (dopamine obviously included).

Edited by MankindRising, 14 December 2018 - 06:50 PM.

[cat-nips]

Yes, when I suddenly develop a means to be able to afford luxury items like tests of that price, I will possibly consider them. 

ManKind: I need to think about your last statement for a bit. More later. Signing off. 

[John250]

Agmatine acts on the brain too by opioid means (namely opioid potentation), what does this mean? Well a high opioid state signals sedation/satisfaction. Ask yourself when you are fully satisfied allready and pain free (both mental perception of harm/hurt and actually feeling less pain) do you still want sex as bad? the answer is simply no.

For me the Agmatine opioid mechanism is pretty weak. I tried taking it with Kratom and again with a Percocet and didn’t notice much at all. Opioids don’t effect my libido but they prolong ejaculation worse than anything(including Lexapro) I would think pornstars would use opiates as it makes you last forever but almost uncomfortably long.

[John250]

Yes, when I suddenly develop a means to be able to afford luxury items like tests of that price, I will possibly consider them.

ManKind: I need to think about your last statement for a bit. More later. Signing off.

You might be able to get your insurance to cover it. It’s absurd how expensive it is. I originally ordered it because I thought it was going to test neopterin/ biopterin but that was a separate $199 add on.

I also ordered Doctors Data Methylation Profile Plasma Test to check SamE levels but the kit came with blood tubes so I have to go in to get it tested.

[MichaelFocus22]

Cat-Nips what might be more beneficial is study people with ADHD who are super successful and see what techniques their using? I'm only modestly successful and I still feel  like an utter failure.  Most of the problems with nootropics, is that it's really hit or miss and they all build tolerance, so at best you might use a regimen 3 times  week for 10% the effectiveness of real psychostimulant treatment. I would study the techniques of real successful ADHD people and learn to use your disorder to your advantage, which is what almost  all disgustingly successful adhd people have done or just take medication. Everyday you wait, is more cumulative damnage that the ADHD tax puts upon you. Which ofcourse, you know but being unmedicated is dangerous to your potential unless your very disciplined and intentional. That's essentially what I'm doing is working to use ADD to my advantage. Learning and figuring ways out how to offsett the negatives. ADHD does allow you to consume huge quantities of information, it allows for novel idea creation, anti-status quo thinking, independence, desire for ambition and power, and desire to be in control. So these are my ADHD, tendencies and I have to learn how to channel it correctly.  The nice thing about it, is your a natural BORN leader once you regulate your executive deficits. No one can come up with as many ideas, strategies and new innovations at something. Especially if your very disciplined. Secondly, have you committed to something yet? Do you have a craft you can work on? If your very tangential with your interests you need to censor them and focus only on a few. Then you must externalize, externalize, externalize. Barkley implicates that self-motivation is meaningless without externalization. You could also get a nicotine vaporizer and smoke pure nicotine and that will increase your dopamine functioning and no one will stigmatize you or you can use a nicotine patch. Their's a reason why many people with ADHD, have a susceptibility towards smoking, is because the nicotine increases your dopamine and hence increases your focus. A vaporizer is nice because you get all the benefits of the nicotine without the horrid side effects of cigarettes. My roomate, has some form of ADHD apparently and he has found his own ADHD treatment and he doesn't even realize it. He smokes weed like no one's business and uses a nicotine vaporizer along with alchohol, which is also another way to increase dopamine. So if you want something that works, you can do CBD OIL for anxiety, pure vaporizer for nicotine and weed for slowing thoughts and anxiety. I myself refuse to use such, repulsive mechanisms of self-medication but it can WORK. My take.

Edited by DrewMichael21, 14 December 2018 - 07:48 PM.

[MankindRising]

For me the Agmatine opioid mechanism is pretty weak. I tried taking it with Kratom and again with a Percocet and didn’t notice much at all. Opioids don’t effect my libido but they prolong ejaculation worse than anything(including Lexapro) I would think pornstars would use opiates as it makes you last forever but almost uncomfortably long.

Yeah its an opioid potentiator mainly (so in conjunction opioid-ergic painkillers in theory you would need less) and from what I have read 3 out of 4 people do feel some effect, though admittedly people cant cut their dosages in half.

Memantine was a godsend for me for mood, I also respond very well to DXM. Theres something about nmda antagonists that makes high functioning autism types very prone to using/abusing them.

 

For that reason as named above I wouldnt dare touching PCP and the likes, Ill be hooked and in the gutter for sure.

 

Was diagnosed with Aspergers and ADHD-PI (glutamate subtype I believe I fit in, though I do have a DAT mutation aswell according to 23andme raw data) for all it matters.

 

Bloodwork is all 'ok-ish', kind of high-ish prolactin, T etc are all decent for my age I think.

 

https://ibb.co/fDwN5hW

https://ibb.co/tJsqZvt

 

Male, 35 yr old, 6ft3, body fat I try to keep around 14-15%, if I go under that I get too aggressive (in a way that I would associate with an increase in cortisol too much). Im also active on certain subreddits, as Im one of those weirdos who feels good the day after binge drinking and sleep deprivation.

 

Oh yeah forgot to add, I did use some dopaminergic agents in the past to see if they benefit me such as ritalin and cabergoline (back when I thought that dopamine was the cure for me), all they did for me drop my prolactin (make me aggressive aswell and emotional dysregulation and despite sending my T into 33nmol). As you can see (atleast in my personal experience) mood/wellbeing is a delicate balance, phytoestrogens (such as in tea and chocolate seem to help my emotions a lot).

Edited by MankindRising, 14 December 2018 - 08:27 PM.

[cat-nips]

Thanks for the response Mankind, I still need a better understanding of genetics to be able to relate it in any way. Ridiculously fascinating to me the different things one person responds to within the framework of psych disorders and various substances used to treat them and within the framework of what we know of neurotransmitter behavior. Psychopharmacology, neuroscience and genetics fields are intermingling now, and will hopefully create options for better treatment that is more individually tailored.

Not familiar with the opioids and their mechanism of action but your question - idk. The state that you speak of is irrelevant to libido, at least for me. It actually may enhance it sometimes, situation dependent. But my interest is piqued and it’s another rabbit hole for another day. Thanks for the introduction.

Drew: I agree. Thanks for the insight. ROTC would kill me and not from the physical activity - but from the shit I’d be forced to eat to get through it. If you can do it, you’ll come out way more disciplined at the end. It’s not for me though . Also share some similar interest in raising awareness, destigmatization, more support for neurodevelopmental and other psych disorders, and of course better treatment options. Too many sad stories and that all plays a part. It’s come far from when I was growing up but there’s apparently a lot of work still left to be done. For my daughters sake, who when I ask her to get me something that’s right in front of her, sometimes she looks as if she’s searching for an answer in her head rather than looking right in front of her. And for anyone else’s sake that is growing up with these confusing conditions and feel isolated and lost because of it.

[cat-nips]

@JB:  Your Agmatine experience is worth consideration especially if it's helpful in any way for anxiety or dealing with negative stim side effects.  I may inquire further on that later.  The laughter was over the article which you doubted anyway, and to me, on first glance, seemed questionable, but further review made laughable.  If it came across as any other way, that wasn't my intent.  

[John250]

Yeah its an opioid potentiator mainly (so in conjunction opioid-ergic painkillers in theory you would need less) and from what I have read 3 out of 4 people do feel some effect, though admittedly people cant cut their dosages in half.
Memantine was a godsend for me for mood, I also respond very well to DXM. Theres something about nmda antagonists that makes high functioning autism types very prone to using/abusing them.

For that reason as named above I wouldnt dare touching PCP and the likes, Ill be hooked and in the gutter for sure.

Was diagnosed with Aspergers and ADHD-PI (glutamate subtype I believe I fit in, though I do have a DAT mutation aswell according to 23andme raw data) for all it matters.

Bloodwork is all 'ok-ish', kind of high-ish prolactin, T etc are all decent for my age I think.

https://ibb.co/fDwN5hW
https://ibb.co/tJsqZvt

Male, 35 yr old, 6ft3, body fat I try to keep around 14-15%, if I go under that I get too aggressive (in a way that I would associate with an increase in cortisol too much). Im also active on certain subreddits, as Im one of those weirdos who feels good the day after binge drinking and sleep deprivation.

Oh yeah forgot to add, I did use some dopaminergic agents in the past to see if they benefit me such as ritalin and cabergoline (back when I thought that dopamine was the cure for me), all they did for me drop my prolactin (make me aggressive aswell and emotional dysregulation and despite sending my T into 33nmol). As you can see (atleast in my personal experience) mood/wellbeing is a delicate balance, phytoestrogens (such as in tea and chocolate seem to help my emotions a lot).

What’s odd is I can’t handle Memantine even at low dose is the increases my impulsiveness but DXM I’m fine with.

I think I have to give Agmatine(Agmapure) another shot and a higher dose I believe I only used 500 mg.

Your bloods look pretty normal except anti tsh antibody but I don’t know much about that. Your prolactin is fine.

[cat-nips]

I’ve heard of of Memantine being able to reverse tolerance in stim users. So much so that I read an anecdotal log on an adhd board a few years back, of a med student who managed to quit and then stay off with this treatment over a period of months. The log is no longer updated so I’m not sure what the final outcome was, if there was more.

Mechanism is NMDA antagonism which is relevant to Memantine, DXM, Agmatine, and magnesium in small amounts. I’m getting an understanding that Agmatine is slightly sedating and dissasociative? I also see it in Preworkout supplements probably for that blood flow aspect but not sure if I’m understanding whether it is neutral or sedative or disassociative, some combination thereof, or whether anything is potentiated by it.

[cat-nips]

I tried Agmatine during one period with Vyvanse but don’t remember much, except for vaguely thinking that it wasn’t great. I didn’t take notes and record anything back then though. I may need to revisit that again sometime soon.

I’m also ok with DXM in cough syrup occasionally. My psych refused to let me try Memantine.

Edited by cat-nips, 15 December 2018 - 12:30 AM.

[MankindRising]

What’s odd is I can’t handle Memantine even at low dose is the increases my impulsiveness but DXM I’m fine with.

I think I have to give Agmatine(Agmapure) another shot and a higher dose I believe I only used 500 mg.

Your bloods look pretty normal except anti tsh antibody but I don’t know much about that. Your prolactin is fine.

Yeah I was not even legally allowed to get some of the bloodwork test, but they gave me the paper where I could check with a pen what to draw. So hell I was why not (blame my adhd).

Eventually I got into a huge arguement with my psych when results came in (he obviously didnt agree with me on me getting the extra tests). Was like piss off and asked him if he was actually sincere about my health (I have talked to him before about autoimmunity playing a factor in my mental states, he seemed uninterested and kept avoiding the subject). I mean... like he would ever me let draw that specific marker (i knew it had to be drawn somehow as I suspected autoimmunity and my suspicion was confirmed as you see).

 

My regular doc (not the psych one) is now going to help me look into it and get more detailed blood drawn on it.

 

With regards to memantine: yeah its potent shit man, its highly anti-stress and pro-euphoric in me (despite it making me restless), also it screws with my memory to a certain degree. I remember first starting on it (5mg) looking at basic things like certain shapes of houses, cars and god knows what, everything looked and felt so special, other dopaminergic meds just didnt do that for me, it must be the combination of the nicotinic and nmda antagonism on top of the d2 agonism that does it.

 

Looking at your post history a bit: have you found any med yet that you reckon you might settle with for a longer period, you seem to switch meds a lot?

Edited by MankindRising, 15 December 2018 - 12:32 AM.

[MankindRising]

Thanks for the response Mankind, I still need a better understanding of genetics to be able to relate it in any way. Ridiculously fascinating to me the different things one person responds to within the framework of psych disorders and various substances used to treat them and within the framework of what we know of neurotransmitter behavior. Psychopharmacology, neuroscience and genetics fields are intermingling now, and will hopefully create options for better treatment that is more individually tailored.

You should do a 23andme (or other genetic service), it has helped me narrow down my problems tremendously.

 

Regarding memantine vs agmatine, on a scale of 0-10, memantine is probably a 9 for me, agmatine a 5.

Does your doc not trust you with meds due to past use/abuse? I managed to get my shrink to prescribe it to me off-label. Just print some pubmed papers showing its efficiency in adhd and hand it over to him as the extra push to confince him, thats what I did.

[cat-nips]

Lol. Find a better psych if you can. They all operate differently. In that situation I’d blame my ADHD over and over. Or just work with GP as you said.

As far as Memantine and psych: He pretty much let me have whatever I wanted and no abuse. But for some reason, he was adamant about the Memantine and kept telling me to forget about it and wouldn’t explain why. I’ll try the PubMed article thing eventually. That’s what the med student did to convince his psych to coadminister. Im in a new GP/patient relationship now with no psych and I don’t want to start it off by being contradictory.

Some studies do look promising though.

Edited by cat-nips, 15 December 2018 - 12:45 AM.

[John250]

I’ve heard of of Memantine being able to reverse tolerance in stim users. So much so that I read an anecdotal log on an adhd board a few years back, of a med student who managed to quit and then stay off with this treatment over a period of months. The log is no longer updated so I’m not sure what the final outcome was, if there was more.

Mechanism is NMDA antagonism which is relevant to Memantine, DXM, Agmatine, and magnesium in small amounts. I’m getting an understanding that Agmatine is slightly sedating and dissasociative? I also see it in Preworkout supplements probably for that blood flow aspect but not sure if I’m understanding whether it is neutral or sedative or disassociative, some combination thereof, or whether anything is potentiated by it.

Where did you see magnesium had to be in small amounts? I figured it had to be in pretty high amounts but maybe not. I may have to try Memantine again but start lower than 2.5 maybe like 1.25 then ramp up. I still have a lot of it I might as well.

Edited by John250, 15 December 2018 - 12:48 AM.

[John250]

Yeah I was not even legally allowed to get some of the bloodwork test, but they gave me the paper where I could check with a pen what to draw. So hell I was why not (blame my adhd).
Eventually I got into a huge arguement with my psych when results came in (he obviously didnt agree with me on me getting the extra tests). Was like piss off and asked him if he was actually sincere about my health (I have talked to him before about autoimmunity playing a factor in my mental states, he seemed uninterested and kept avoiding the subject). I mean... like he would ever me let draw that specific marker (i knew it had to be drawn somehow as I suspected autoimmunity and my suspicion was confirmed as you see).

My regular doc (not the psych one) is now going to help me look into it and get more detailed blood drawn on it.

With regards to memantine: yeah its potent shit man, its highly anti-stress and pro-euphoric in me (despite it making me restless), also it screws with my memory to a certain degree. I remember first starting on it (5mg) looking at basic things like certain shapes of houses, cars and god knows what, everything looked and felt so special, other dopaminergic meds just didnt do that for me, it must be the combination of the nicotinic and nmda antagonism on top of the d2 agonism that does it.

Looking at your post history a bit: have you found any med yet that you reckon you might settle with for a longer period, you seem to switch meds a lot?

The only thing I actually need I think is Lexapro. I’ve been on that the longest and I respond pretty well do it. Before I ever tried amphetamines I never needed them I just tried Adderall one day and then got hooked. As far as any true chemical imbalances if anything its serotonin related for me which is why Lexapro has seemed to work for me. I have Agomelatine That I’ve been waiting to try as it seems pretty interesting. Only thing is I haven’t tried that are on the list that I actually have ou that I’ve been waiting to try as it seems pretty interesting. Only thing is I haven’t tried that on the list that I actually have are Agomelatine and LDN.

[cat-nips]

I wasn’t clear. I meant Agmatine + Mag together might have NMDA antagonism in small amounts. Probably nothing compared to Memantine.

[cat-nips]

The only thing I actually need I think is Lexapro. I’ve been on that the longest and I respond pretty well do it. Before I ever tried amphetamines I never needed them I just tried Adderall one day and then got hooked. As far as any true chemical imbalances if anything its serotonin related for me which is why Lexapro has seemed to work for me. I have Agomelatine That I’ve been waiting to try as it seems pretty interesting. Only thing is I haven’t tried that are on the list that I actually have ou that I’ve been waiting to try as it seems pretty interesting. Only thing is I haven’t tried that on the list that I actually have are Agomelatine and LDN.

I’ve seen it. Looks promising. Still in Phase III. Here’s something from the UK.
https://discover.dc....in-major-review

[cat-nips]

Looking at your post history a bit: have you found any med yet that you reckon you might settle with for a longer period, you seem to switch meds a lot?

It does, doesn’t it? Lol. Just 30 years dealing with my own issues, most spent unmedicated and struggling to be more ‘normal’, fair amount of undergrad study in psychopharmacology, psychology, neuroscience and a ton of time spent in research or just discussing various substances with others and how it works for them, some family history of mood disorders and growing up therein which probably sent me down this whole path.

Largely unmedicated though for most of my life except for my ADHD treatment trials which started 6-7 years ago and that took some tinkering. Yeah I was a pain in the ass but he trusted me maybe because at the time I was studying Neuroscience and would try to discuss things with him.

SSRI trials done in my twenties rarely lasted more than a month at a time and there were a few of those trials associated with traumatic life events like death of parents, etc. Eventually I found something that worked well and stayed consistent for 4+ years, then I moved and quit for another year to try a ton of nootropics again, which brings me to now and I’m going back to what I know was good for me. 30-40mg Dexedrine ER, (15-20 BID) + various other nootropics to help mitigate side effects. I’m working on figuring out the various sides now.

Edited by cat-nips, 15 December 2018 - 01:33 AM.

[cat-nips]

Oh yeah forgot to add, I did use some dopaminergic agents in the past to see if they benefit me such as ritalin and cabergoline (back when I thought that dopamine was the cure for me), all they did for me drop my prolactin (make me aggressive aswell and emotional dysregulation and despite sending my T into 33nmol). As you can see (atleast in my personal experience) mood/wellbeing is a delicate balance, phytoestrogens (such as in tea and chocolate seem to help my emotions a lot).

 

I wasn't aware of that association with prolactin.   The unnatural aggression and dysregulation though is familiar, even as a female.  23andme is definitely something I'll eventually get to.  Thanks.

Edited by cat-nips, 15 December 2018 - 03:34 PM.

[cat-nips]

@ Drew:  All the methods you mentioned work in moderate capacity for me, but as you said, it's inconsistent or 10% of the effectiveness.  Except for the alcohol, which I never touch and I'm too brain damaged already to want to add to that confusion.  I don't really see alcohol as having any place in ADHD treatment period.  Unfortunate, because methods which work on those without PFC issues won't ever understand until the science and medicine comes out with data to clearly state the differences and possible treatments.  If the treatments were safer, then a lot of the stigmatization would go away.

 

I'm aware of Barkley and came across his work some years ago.  Thanks for reminding me.  I may have to revisit.  Good that you're starting to see the positives to offset the negatives. 

 

Cat-Nips what might be more beneficial is study people with ADHD who are super successful and see what techniques their using? I'm only modestly successful and I still feel  like an utter failure.  Most of the problems with nootropics, is that it's really hit or miss and they all build tolerance, so at best you might use a regimen 3 times  week for 10% the effectiveness of real psychostimulant treatment. I would study the techniques of real successful ADHD people and learn to use your disorder to your advantage, which is what almost  all disgustingly successful adhd people have done or just take medication. Everyday you wait, is more cumulative damnage that the ADHD tax puts upon you. Which ofcourse, you know but being unmedicated is dangerous to your potential unless your very disciplined and intentional. That's essentially what I'm doing is working to use ADD to my advantage. Learning and figuring ways out how to offsett the negatives. ADHD does allow you to consume huge quantities of information, it allows for novel idea creation, anti-status quo thinking, independence, desire for ambition and power, and desire to be in control. So these are my ADHD, tendencies and I have to learn how to channel it correctly.  The nice thing about it, is your a natural BORN leader once you regulate your executive deficits. No one can come up with as many ideas, strategies and new innovations at something. Especially if your very disciplined. Secondly, have you committed to something yet? Do you have a craft you can work on? If your very tangential with your interests you need to censor them and focus only on a few. Then you must externalize, externalize, externalize. Barkley implicates that self-motivation is meaningless without externalization. You could also get a nicotine vaporizer and smoke pure nicotine and that will increase your dopamine functioning and no one will stigmatize you or you can use a nicotine patch. Their's a reason why many people with ADHD, have a susceptibility towards smoking, is because the nicotine increases your dopamine and hence increases your focus. A vaporizer is nice because you get all the benefits of the nicotine without the horrid side effects of cigarettes. My roomate, has some form of ADHD apparently and he has found his own ADHD treatment and he doesn't even realize it. He smokes weed like no one's business and uses a nicotine vaporizer along with alchohol, which is also another way to increase dopamine. So if you want something that works, you can do CBD OIL for anxiety, pure vaporizer for nicotine and weed for slowing thoughts and anxiety. I myself refuse to use such, repulsive mechanisms of self-medication but it can WORK. My take.

 

Edited by cat-nips, 15 December 2018 - 03:43 PM.

[cat-nips]

Happy Holidays everyone.  I'm prepping for holidays and going away and probably won't be posting or updating anymore.  Wanted to thank everyone for being a part of this thread though, as it will be memorialized for me as another chapter of my life which is ending and changing.  2019 onwards!  

[cat-nips]

Correction: meant I won’t be updating or posting anymore ‘for a little while’ because I need to externalize to try to get through holiday plans . I’ll be back soon enough. I love the discussions, after all.

MKR: Oh and I saw the prolactin studies. Thanks for that info. It was helpful.

[cat-nips]

Also agmatine acts as a calcium channel blocker, if you look at sides from stuff such as gabapentin/pregabalin you will see some (minority of users) experiencing increased libido while the majority experiences a drop in libido. Pregabalin and other calcium channel blockers actually modulate mesolimbic/nac dopamine in variety of ways, some calcium blockers increase dopamine in certain areas, while decrease it in others.

While there is no way to predict the net result they clearly do have an influence. Also as calcium channel inhibition occurs while gabapentinoid concentrations are on a rising trend, calcium channels actually 'potentiate' during decreasing gabapentinoid concentrations. This most likely also explain side effects such as mania, calcium release forces neurotransmitter release (dopamine obviously included).

 

This definitely warrants further looking into for my own research.  Thanks for the nugget.