28 replies to this topic

[GABAergic]

i always thought all fish oil is kind of the same with differences in EPA to DHA content and price for amount but it wasnt until i read this https://www.nutraing...study-concludes and then went to research on google and found out many similar articles with the same information. so it just so it happens we have been wasting our money on fish oil when in fact, the most researched and proven way to boost omega 3s in the brain is by using lysophospholipid form of EPA. wow

too bad in fact, its impossible to find any forms sold like this on the marker, except i found only one and its called Hepexa. not sure how good this one is, because im pretty sure nobody ever tried it to report as of yet...

[nickdino]

Can you post a link here to the hepexa? Google search gives me a tudca product.

[Shemp999]

Here's another form on the market:

 

https://vayadirect.com/home-r3/

[Daniel Cooper]

Do we know that "boosting omega-3 fatty acid levels in brain 100-fold" is in fact a good thing?

 

We already have people consuming fish oils in quantities significantly greater than what they'd consume if they ate a fish based diet for every meal.  

 

One thing I always look at with supplements like this is "what is the largest quantity of this compound that you can fine any population of humans consuming anywhere on the planet"?  How do these levels they are achieving in the brain compare with the greatest omega-3 levels you can find any population naturally achieving?

 

More is not always better.  Maybe it is, but someone needs to show that.

 

 

 

[GABAergic]

Can you post a link here to the hepexa? Google search gives me a tudca product.

 

oh cmon i just typed hepexa fish oil. http://hepaxa-usa.com/

Do we know that "boosting omega-3 fatty acid levels in brain 100-fold" is in fact a good thing?

 

We already have people consuming fish oils in quantities significantly greater than what they'd consume if they ate a fish based diet for every meal.  

 

One thing I always look at with supplements like this is "what is the largest quantity of this compound that you can fine any population of humans consuming anywhere on the planet"?  How do these levels they are achieving in the brain compare with the greatest omega-3 levels you can find any population naturally achieving?

 

More is not always better.  Maybe it is, but someone needs to show that.

 

there hasnt been shown any negative outcomes in people living in cold climates that eat only fish and no vegetables. like the innuit or siberians so i would assume you can consume a lot of fish oil with probably minimum negative effect
 

[Daniel Cooper]

oh cmon i just typed hepexa fish oil. http://hepaxa-usa.com/

 

there hasnt been shown any negative outcomes in people living in cold climates that eat only fish and no vegetables. like the innuit or siberians so i would assume you can consume a lot of fish oil with probably minimum negative effect
 

 

 

Yeah, but if that article is correct and regular fish oil has a much milder impact on omega-3s in the brain, then this stuff could easily boost omega-3s in the brain far beyond those levels.  Does anyone have any idea if that's a good idea.

 

We can do it.  The question is, is it a good idea?

[Kimer Med]

Do we know that "boosting omega-3 fatty acid levels in brain 100-fold" is in fact a good thing?

 

Omega-3s are very easily oxidized. I've heard about people taking high doses who actually end up doing quite poorly -- high levels of oxidized / peroxidized lipids in your cell membranes is a bad, bad idea.

[Daniel Cooper]

Omega-3s are very easily oxidized. I've heard about people taking high doses who actually end up doing quite poorly -- high levels of oxidized / peroxidized lipids in your cell membranes is a bad, bad idea.

 

 

These are exactly the sort of things I'm talking about.  Some research group comes up with a way to get a lot more omega-3s into the brain.  Sounds like far more than you'd ever encounter in any sort of natural diet.  Maybe that's a good thing, or maybe that's not a good thing.  I seriously doubt anyone has a clue at this point since it's probably so far off the page of what anyone has ever researched.

 

In fact, if you read that article the researchers are basically saying "this new compound is great because now we can study what really high doses of omega-3s in the brain do". 

 

This doesn't make me want to go out and try it at this point. 

[nickdino]

Yes Daniel Cooper, i agree with your point but i assume you can choose your dose, so i think the danger of overdosing can be controlled. My concern is how many drawbacks it has compared to regular fish oil

Edited by nickdino, 31 January 2019 - 09:45 AM.

[QuestforLife]

Omega-3s are very easily oxidized. I've heard about people taking high doses who actually end up doing quite poorly -- high levels of oxidized / peroxidized lipids in your cell membranes is a bad, bad idea.

 

From the link:

 

The firm said its omega 3 powder was formulated to resist the oxidatitive process that omega-3 oils are vulnerable to, remaining stable for atleast three years.

 

Plus you could also take it with a powerful antioxidant, say astaxanthin or maybe C60 fullerenes.

[GABAergic]

shoving uncommon things in your brain will make sense that it might turn bad. but omega 3s? cmon man, omega 3s are what your mother's breast milk gave you. from reports and lots of articles, kids IQ were much higher the longer they sucked on those mommy's tits consuming huge amounts of omega 3s. so it would seem to me at least, more omega 3s in the brain arent a bad thing. how can it be if its naturally occurring when you are fed as baby those same omega 3s and many reports saying it boosts IQ?? explain to me, please. ill use this as example. curcumin is also brain boosting, antioxidant and such, but it doesnt occur naturally in our diet as in sucking milk for life support as omega 3s are already within us. get my point? so boosting curcumin in the brain in high percent is probably very likely BAD! boosting omega 3s, probably not as detrimental although still questionable if enourmous amounts are going to work much better but perhaps less detrimental than anything unnatural for sure.

[Mind]

Do we know that "boosting omega-3 fatty acid levels in brain 100-fold" is in fact a good thing?

 

We already have people consuming fish oils in quantities significantly greater than what they'd consume if they ate a fish based diet for every meal.  

 

One thing I always look at with supplements like this is "what is the largest quantity of this compound that you can fine any population of humans consuming anywhere on the planet"?  How do these levels they are achieving in the brain compare with the greatest omega-3 levels you can find any population naturally achieving?

 

More is not always better.  Maybe it is, but someone needs to show that.

 

Having watched various supplement "hype cycles" through the years, I would venture to say that not only is "more not always better", MORE IS ALMOST ALWAYS WORSE.

 

The dose-response curve is something everyone should know well.

[motorcitykid]

In cases of traumatic brain injury, ultra high dose Omega-3's have shown to be curative.

 

20 Grams of Omega -3 per day credited with pulling a young boy out of a coma:

https://fox13now.com...c-brain-injury/

 

 

Will be interesting to see if dose-response curve applies to those individuals with relative healthy brains seeking a nootropic edge.

Edited by motorcitykid, 06 February 2019 - 04:53 AM.

[QuestforLife]

Doesn't krill oil have EPA in the aforementioned phospholid form?

 

http://staging.super...ipid-advantage/

 

 

 

Lysophosphatidylcholine is thought to impact the distribution of fatty acids to the body’s organs and tissues because of its role in lipoprotein assemblages, which serve as vehicles that transport fatty acids via blood serum. In certain animal models, after removing phosphatidylcholine from the diet, a significant reduction in the transport of fatty acids to tissues, accompanied by accumulation of fat in the liver, has been observed.

Edited by QuestforLife, 06 February 2019 - 09:03 AM.

[GABAergic]

i heard this a lot that omega 3s from krill are better absorbed and bioaccumilated, but all the krill products i have seen in general contain tiny amounts of both dha and epa. so if you go by this, those tiny amounts will absorb but so does fish oil's much higher percent of dha and epa will probably equal krill oil's content even if the absorption is reduced a lot. so in a way, its just what you prefer really or what you can afford. i would think krill oil containing much more epa and dha would have been novel though

[Kimer Med]

Here's a link to an article that lists 8 ways high-dose omega-3s can be damaging:

 

https://www.healthli...il-side-effects

 

Summary:

1. High blood sugar
2. Bleeding
3. Low blood pressure
4. Diarrhea
5. Acid reflux
6. Stroke
7. Vit A toxicity
8. Insomnia

It's a typical dose-response curve: too little is bad (and very common these days), but so is too much.

 

Peroxidized fats are especially harmful to human health, and one thing about omega-3s is that they are peroxidized very easily (one reason they should never be supplemented in capsule form).

 

[GABAergic]

what other form should they be supplemented? eating as whole fish? fish is amazingly toxic in the modern world and it contains all the toxins in the world dumped into the oceans and rivers, about 80,000 chemicals that have been analyzed so far including the usual regular pain in the ass heavy metals. fish oils is highly analyzed and processed for purity. do you think taking a possibly oxidized fish oil better overall for health than eating the world's toxins in a single fish to get just a gram of omegas?

[Kimer Med]

what other form should they be supplemented? eating as whole fish? fish is amazingly toxic in the modern world and it contains all the toxins in the world dumped into the oceans and rivers, about 80,000 chemicals that have been analyzed so far including the usual regular pain in the ass heavy metals. fish oils is highly analyzed and processed for purity. do you think taking a possibly oxidized fish oil better overall for health than eating the world's toxins in a single fish to get just a gram of omegas?

 

Some fish oils are very good -- tested and shown to be toxin-free. Carlson and Nordic Naturals are two brands that come to mind. You can also get omega-3 from Flax Oil.

 

FWIW, I never said not to supplement. My concerns are with over-supplementation, and with using versions that are easily peroxidized, such as in capsules.

 

Do I think taking a possible (per)oxidized fish oil is better for overall health than eating the world's toxins in a single fish? No, I don't. But both peroxide-free and toxin-free versions are available, so that's a false choice.

[GABAergic]

what other way to take fish oil but in capsules? i know carlson sells it as liquid drink too, especially cod liver oil. i think those are easier for peroxidation because they arent confined in a capsule with various mix of antioxidants to keep it stable

[Kimer Med]

what other way to take fish oil but in capsules? i know carlson sells it as liquid drink too, especially cod liver oil. i think those are easier for peroxidation because they arent confined in a capsule with various mix of antioxidants to keep it stable

 

The alternative to capsules is just the liquid. As you said, Carlson is an example. Their Cod Liver Oil actually contains Vit E as an antioxidant. There are a number of other brands, too, with slightly different formulations, such as Nordic Naturals Omega-3.

 

One issue with gelcaps is that they don't keep oxygen out. In the bottle, they are nearly entirely surrounded by air, so the exposed surface area is much higher than with a liquid. More exposure to air / oxygen means they oxidize faster. There was a study done about this a while back. Sorry, I don't have a link handy.

 

As an experiment, you can try biting into your caps, to taste the content. Peroxidized lipids don't have much of a taste until the concentration is quite high, so if the contents have even the slightest off / sour / bitter / fishy taste, it's a pretty good bet that they are heavily peroxidized.

 

Another issue with caps for me is that it's difficult to get a large enough dose. I know a lot of people use them, though. If they work for you, great! They're just not right for me.

[GABAergic]

i opened some of those capsules and slurped the liquid. tasted like fish, smelled like lemon because thats what they add to the smell, the nordic naturals ones. i didnt smell or taste anything faulty, i suppose its good then. they do put a lot of antioxidants though so it might be working.

[nickdino]

Wow! I didn't know that the softgels let oxygen pass trough to the fish-oil. Maybe that's why i've been feeling depressed on my stack? I've been using the following dailly for a short period:

1× lef super omega 3 with astaxanthin.
3× biotech d3-plus 2500 iu with k2 and magnesium.
2× biocell collagen type2 https://nl.iherb.com...-Capsules/72032

1 or 2× nutricost TUDCA

Sometimes: 1or2× magnesium-citrate 400mg, nac extended release 600mg, pycnogenol.

My skin improved noticeably, my stools got darker and i suffered indigestion, more energy but somehow unhinged and depressed. And then a few days ago i had painfull acid reflux and lots of gas so i quit taking anything but magnesium-citrate but i didn't stop the acid-reflux untill i jogged for 30 minutes.

Does anyone recognize what is causing my negative effects?

Edited by nickdino, 14 February 2019 - 09:14 AM.

[Kimer Med]

Wow! I didn't know that the softgels let oxygen pass trough to the fish-oil. Maybe that's why i've been feeling depressed on my stack? I've been using the following dailly for a short period:

1× lef super omega 3 with astaxanthin.
3× biotech d3-plus 2500 iu with k2 and magnesium.
2× biocell collagen type2 https://nl.iherb.com...-Capsules/72032

1 or 2× nutricost TUDCA

Sometimes: 1or2× magnesium-citrate 400mg, nac extended release 600mg, pycnogenol.

My skin improved noticeably, my stools got darker and i suffered indigestion, more energy but somehow unhinged and depressed. And then a few days ago i had painfull acid reflux and lots of gas so i quit taking anything but magnesium-citrate but i didn't stop the acid-reflux untill i jogged for 30 minutes.

Does anyone recognize what is causing my negative effects?

 

It's a little OT for this thread, but magnesium is a muscle relaxer. That includes the muscle in the sphincter at the base of your esophagus, above the stomach. In some people, that means magnesium can cause or aggravate acid reflux. You may be able to mitigate the effect by taking it with food.

 

Bad omega-3 oil can definitely have effects on the brain (causing indigestion is possible, too). My suggestion would be to switch to a high-quality brand that's liquid based, not in capsules. As I suggested above, you can also bite into the caps to get a sense of how bad they might be. High-quality oil should have almost no taste. If it tastes even slightly fishy or bitter or sour, it's probably peroxidized. Some people tolerate flax oil better than fish oil (also available in liquid form). TUDCA (which is a bile acid), NAC and pycnogenol can also cause stomach and brain issues in some people.

 

Astaxanthin and collagen both have good effects on skin in some people. However, I'm sensitive to both, and I know others who are, as well. LEF is generally a good brand, though. 

 

The D3 and K2 sound fine. Biotech is good.

 

You may want to back off of everything, and add them back in slowly, one at a time. I do that a few times a year with all of my supplements, adding them in at the rate of about 1 per week.

[GABAergic]

acenz, what supplement stack are you on currently

[Kimer Med]

acenz, what supplement stack are you on currently

 

Here's most of what I'm taking at the moment, not including a couple of prescription meds. I take most of them every day except Lithium, Boron and Zinc, and I rotate a few others that aren't on this list in-and-out on a quarterly basis or so.

 
This stack is focused on my particular health issues, though, and many are driven by / supported by lab tests -- so I couldn't recommend it as being good for anyone other than me. (I would have included brands, but I can't figure out how to paste a table from Excel so that it retains formatting).

Acetyl-L-Carnitine
Alpha Lipoic Acid
Benfotiamine
Biotin
Boron
Carnosine
Chromium
CoQ10
Curcumin
Digestive Enzymes
Fish Oil
Glucomannan
Lithium Orotate
Magnesium
Melatonin
Methyl-B12
Methylfolate
Multiple Mineral
Niacinamde Riboside
NMN
Plant Sterols
Resveratrol
Taurine
Vit A
Vit B Complex
Vit B2
Vit B5
Vit D3
Vit E
Vit K
Zinc

[GABAergic]

i see. thanks for this. the list is nothing out of the ordinary. i just wonder if you can ever figure out if any of them work better than others considering you combine all of them. thats a hassle considering at one point you might have to choose less and not more, presumably as that is in my case. having a huge lineup over long term with no benefits really put me down and confused as to which of all of those i was taking didnt actually work. i was happier when i didnt take a single one, but i was a kid, it was different :s

[Kimer Med]

i see. thanks for this. the list is nothing out of the ordinary. i just wonder if you can ever figure out if any of them work better than others considering you combine all of them. thats a hassle considering at one point you might have to choose less and not more, presumably as that is in my case. having a huge lineup over long term with no benefits really put me down and confused as to which of all of those i was taking didnt actually work. i was happier when i didnt take a single one, but i was a kid, it was different :s

 

I figure out if they work by doing a few things. First, a pretty wide range of "regular" blood tests and home monitoring of blood glucose and ketones, combined with roughly annual in-depth analysis for Organic Acids and blood minerals. My doc is very cooperative on that front.

 

Second, I stop all of them periodically, and start taking them again slowly, adding one related group back in at a time, once every 4 to 7 days.

 

The first helps me know if they are having the desired effect. The second helps me find supplements that don't agree with me in some way. I usually find one or two every cycle that I have to either drop or rotate out and replace with another brand / mix. My "ideal" supplement list is much longer, but unfortunately there's a lot I can't tolerate.

[GABAergic]

acenz, always interested in what you contribute here. can you add some more information like, which ones you actually found out, or thought werent doing its job and dumped them completely from the stack, like permanently? or is that not a possibility, perhaps just removed them temporary but planning on re-adding.

 

edit: btw you should try milk thistle from Indena formulated by jarrow formulas. its the only milk thistle i noticed doing something after eating food, similar to carnosine assuming thats how carnosine works for you too.

Edited by GABAergic, 16 February 2019 - 06:16 AM.

[Kimer Med]

Early-on, I found that Nutricology / Allergy Research Group and TwinLab didn't work for me and/or were contaminated with crap. I won't take them, ever. I also try to stay away from Blue Bonnet (see below).

 

My favorite brand is Thorne, with Jarrow and Biotivia close seconds. The next tier is Carlson, Nordic Naturals, Life Extension, Now Foods, Doctor's Best, Natural Vitality and KAL. Third tier is Healthy Origins and MRM.

 

I also like a handful of other, physician-oriented brands, but I don't use them much: Douglas Labs, for example. I'm currently taking B-minus by Seeking Health, but I will probably switch back to B-Right by Jarrow (just need to double-check that it doesn't include "standard" Folic Acid).

 

In the course of my supplementation, I found some minerals corrected levels very quickly, and others were extremely slow. IIRC, it took like two years for my Molybdenum to correct, for example (taking Thorne the whole time). I also go through periods of being extremely sensitive to B vitamins.

 

Resveratrol is one that I noticed a huge difference from one brand to another. I started taking it mainly for blood sugar control, in 2009. I started with the best brand I could find at the time: TransMax 500mg by Biotivia. Measuring my blood glucose (BG) with a meter multiple times a day, every day, I could see a big difference. When my supplier ran out once, I tried another brand (TransMax isn't cheap, so it was also a hopeful change on that front): Blue Bonnet. Same strength, but it had almost no effect on my BG. I switched back to TransMax as soon as I could, and the BG effect returned. Haven't looked elsewhere ever since.

 

I had a big learning curve on Vit E, too. I took Unique E for years -- which is great. But I eventually learned about the differences between alpha and gamma tocopherol, and the importance of tocotrienols, and switched that around. Currently taking Gamma E by Jarrow, while rotating in tocotrienols a few times a year.