167 replies to this topic

[Biologist]

One aspect that concerns me a bit: 2250 mg glucosamine sulfate daily for 3 months caused 34% increase in Intraocular Pressure in 66 years old (less in 57 year olds, so might only be a concern for older people). This could over time contribute to glaucoma as it is a significant risk factor. 

2017 Effect of glucosamine on intraocular pressure: a randomized clinical trial https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5350357/

Edited by Biologist, 30 June 2019 - 08:18 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Re post #91

 

The 34.1% in the article (cited as 34% in post #91) refers to the percentage of the glucosamine (treatment) group that had a clinically significant increase in IOP,--not that the IOP increased by about 34% (post #91). Also, 12.5% of the placebo group had a clinically significant increase in IOP.

 

In addition, one can use their favorite reference source to see that the data given in the article showed that no one in the study, glucosamine (treatment) or placebo, measured outside of the bounds of "normal" IOP during the course of the study. People are different and can tolerate various levels of IOP.

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 01 July 2019 - 12:06 AM.

[Guest]

I have no knowledge of the glaucoma literature. Judging from a casual glance, IOP appears to be the major modifiable factor contributing to the disease. But:

 

 

1. It's not the major factor in general. Non-modifiable factors are the major drivers. E.g. ethnic background and family history is a strong predictor:

 

"Racial differences in the cause-specific prevalence of blindness in east Baltimore."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/1922252

 

Quote: "Primary open-angle glaucoma accounted for 19 percent of all blindness among blacks; it was six times as frequent among blacks as among whites and began 10 years earlier, on average."

 

 

2. Other factors are contributing to IOP-increase, not just glucosamine (e.g. age, alcohol, diabetes, caffeine, blood pressure).

 

 

If you are in an at risk cohort (e.g. African ancestry or with a family history of Glaucoma) it might be advisable to be cautious - provided you're cautious about caffeine/alcohol/blood pressure as well (otherwise the additional risk is diminishing compared to your life-style baseline risk).

[Izan]

What a great thread OP!

[Guest]

According to a relatively recent paper, some of the action of Glucosamine appear to be driven by protecting the integrity of Mitochondria:

 

“Glucosamine inhibits IL-1β expression by preserving mitochondrial integrity and disrupting assembly of the NLRP3 inflammasome” (2019)

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6447579/

 

 

This is of course compatible with the previous assertion, based on circumstantial evidence:

 

- glucosamine induced autophagic vesicles have a larger volume than in fasting-induced autophagy (so either more, or larger cell components get recycled)

 

- glucosamine has a strong anti-cancer effect – according to the (not yet fully accepted) Warburg effect most cancers are partially driven by mutant mitochondria (either causal for DNA mutations, or as a necessary condition for cancer progression after DNA damage occurred)

 

 

This alone wouldn’t necessarily be suprising – it’s simple Mitophagy. However, the authors note some very peculiar mitochondrial effects of glucosamine, that almost sound contradictory to previous research.

 

According to the mice-lifespan study in 2014, it was theorized, that GS causes its effect through “mitohormesis” - meaning it increases mitochondrial reactive oxygen species (ROS) production, due to some kind of shift away from glucose metabolism. As a response, shortly afterwards the cell activates stress-response mechanisms that are pro-life extension in the long run.

 

 

This current study instead performs in-vitro experiments indicating, that GS reduces ROS-production in mitochondria. Now this is not the first study, that ascribes an anti-oxidant mechanism to GS; see this study in mice:

“Glucosamine attenuates cigarette smoke-induced lung inflammation by inhibiting ROS-sensitive inflammatory signaling.” (2014)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24486342

 

The authors acknowledge, that the reduction in ROS may be due to increased autophagy. Though in this study they also try to demonstrate the biochemical basis for a none-AP effect. Quote:

“Interestingly, GlcN alone increased the DiOC2(3) staining compared to the control cells, indicating that GlcN increased mitochondrial function (Fig. 3C). Furthermore, ATP treatment induced mitochondrial ROS production (Fig. 3D), leading to NLRP3 inflammasome assembly24. We found that ATP-mediated mitochondrial ROS production was reduced by GlcN treatment in J774 A.1 macrophages (Fig. 3D). These results demonstrated that GlcN inhibited NLRP3 inflammasome activation by reducing mitochondrial integrity loss.”

 

Note: GS is not neutralising ROS. It prevents ROS-production in the first place. I personally wouldn’t be sure, if that still isn’t AP-mediated. But the exposure time of just 4 hours to ROS/inflammation causing agents, and the reduction in inflammatory molecule-levels by 50%-70% due to GS in that time span, would indicate a really rapid AP-turnover of mitochondria – if AP is the driving factor. I’m not an AP-expert. So: is the recycling of the majority of a cells mitochondria in just 4 hours plausible?

 

If not the authors might be correct in concluding an additional ROS-reducing effect of GS. And that is at least superficially at odds with the assumption of “mitohormesis” in the 2014 mice-lifespan-study (i.e. increased ROS-production).

Though I find the idea of the life-span study, that the life-extension effect might be due to mimicing a low-carb-diet not very convincing on other grounds. If that is true, a true low-carb/keto-diet should exert similar cellular responses as GS. But injecting mice with the people-equivalent of 3 g of GS leads to a much stronger AP-response than even prolonged fasting (in turn presumily even more AP-inducing than a keto-diet).

 

my conclusion:

 

a) either GS is causing really strong mitophagy (like: really, really)

 

b) and/or it’s effects definitely are not based on mimicking a keto-diet

 

All this of course demonstrates, that even small changes in molecules can have drastical functional differences. GS is almost identical to glucose, execpt for one amino-group. It’s a really simple bio-molecule (much simpler than rapamycin). Though it seems to be a strong AP-promoter and strongly preventing (accumulation of) damaged mitochondria. As a consequence it’s the probably best cancer-prevention supplement for which there is evidence available in mice and men (albeit no RCT in humans, but cohort studies).

[YOLF]

To offer more food for thought, another comment to bio-availability:

 

there are 2 studies done for bio-availability of Glucosamine (GS) in humans; the more important one being:

 

"Glucosamine oral bioavailability and plasma pharmacokinetics after increasing doses of crystalline glucosamine sulfate in man": https://www.oarsijou...0193-7/fulltext

 

 

Their main findings:

 

- GS got an elimination half-life of about 15 hours in humans

 

- an oral doses up to 1,5 gram in on sitting is readily absorbed and increases plasma concentration of GS proportionally compared to 0,75 gram

 

- oral intake of 3 gram of GS in one sitting did result in a less than proportional increase in plasma levels

 

 

This indicates, that you might want to spread out taking a GS intake of 3 gram or more per day - i.e. a little in the morning and a little in the evening - to get the most out of it.

 

 

 

To make you scratch your head a little more, let's have a look at the actual GS-uptake mechanism. This picture illustrates the structure of glucosamine to the left and glucose to the right. Both are simple molecules - the only difference being the exchange of on hydroxy-group by one amino-group:

 

 

 

 

Glucosamine in principle utilities the same cellular transporters as glucose. But there is one strange difference: GLUT2 - a glucose transporter that is especially prevalent in the nutrient absorbing small intestines and does not require insulin to be activated - is highly sensitive to glucosamine:

 

"GLUT2 is a high affinity glucosamine transporter"

https://www.scienced...014579302030582

 

According to above study this glucose transporter actually is 21-fold as sensitive to glucosamine as it is for glucose itself - meaning glucose requires a 21-fold concentration in the medium to be transported at the same rate as is glucosamine. The liver got an elevated concentration for GLUT2 as well. This combination could be the explanation for the good bio-availability of oral glucosamine in blood plasma.

 

 

As mentioned before, in one mice study, administering the human equivalent of 3 gram glucosamine per day resulted in more active autophagy than caloric restriction. The results looked like this:

 

 

yellow - glucosamine

white - controls

red - caloric restriction

grey - a different mouse strain as further controls

 

 

Although GS and glucose are structurally almost identical, the effects are very markedly different. The controls got glucose as part of their lab diet (as did the treatment groups). Starving the mice on a water-only fast (and consequently no glucose) did increase AP. But using a rather small dose of GS in addition to a normal glucose intake resulted in a considerably stronger AP.

 

It appears, that GS got an effect on AP that goes beyond competing against glucose. So it could be more to GS than just mimicking a reduced carb diet.

 

 

 

Glucosamine:

 

- much safer than metformin

 

- better life extension effects in mice than metformin

 

- life-extension in a prospective cohort study in healthy humans - 22% reduced all-cause mortality rate in on analysis of the VITAL-data (or even up to 49% reduced all-cause mortality rate if you believe the analysis of only the participants that did no use NSAID... but I personally think that's just a statistical fluke)

 

- and the cancer-studies concluded, that there is a dose-depended effect - the more you take, the better the benefits... and GS is very safe

 

- potentially better AP than caloric restriction using a rather small dose... 

 

 

Give me a reason, why anyone is taking metformin for purely life-extension purposes - but not glucosamine. Or Vitamin K2 (it's got less evidence than GS going for it). Or a dozend other less impressive supplements, that even deliver less impressive safety-records.

 

According to wiki:

 

 

in the fed-state, GLUT2 is up-regulated at the brush border membrane, enhancing the capacity of glucose transport

 

The brush border membrane produces terminal carb digestions, also per wiki's page on that. Brush cells are present in the small intestine, the large, and in kidney. Invokana removes glucose through urine/kidneys, so perhaps glucosamine would be like taking metformin along with invokana? Might be a good lead if someone has time.

[GABAergic]

whats invokana?

[Izan]

@ Guest: How long should you take 3 grams of glucosamine? 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, a few days?

[YOLF]

whats invokana?

https://en.wikipedia...i/Canagliflozin

[Izan]

Is there a danger of getting diabetis? And How long should you take 3 grams of glucosamine? 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, a few days?

 

 

Thanks.

[YOLF]

Another poster presented a compelling argument against glucosamine causing diabetes and it sounded good to me. I arrived at the same conclusion from a similar but distinct angle too. I'm fairly confident that he's correct.

[aribadabar]

There are practically millions of people taking glucosamine daily for years for the joint benefits. If that were true, they would have been all diabetics by now.

[BieraK]

This study says that Glucosamine say this:

 

When compared with placebo, glucosamine did not cause insulin resistance or endothelial dysfunction in lean subjects or significantly worsen these findings in obese subjects. The half-life of plasma glucosamine after oral dosing was ∼150 min, with no significant changes in steady-state glucosamine levels detectable after 6 weeks of therapy. We conclude that oral glucosamine at standard doses for 6 weeks does not cause or significantly worsen insulin resistance or endothelial dysfunction in lean or obese subjects.

https://diabetes.dia...tent/55/11/3142

 

 

This study says two important things

1) Glucosamine is safe for healthy and obese individuals, glucosamine does not cause insulin resistance

2) Glucosamine HCL half life is about 2 hours not 15 hours as stated before

 

The study showing Glucosamine half life of 15 hours used Glucosamine Sulfate, this study used HCL form. If we want to boost autophagy with Glucosamine HCL we need to take every two hours?

[YOLF]

I'm of the mind that sometimes shorter half lives are better because they are more volatile. In the case of AP, what it could mean is more AP faster vs sustained AP.

 

Why not take Glucosamine HCl first and then take the sulfate form 2-4 hours later for lasting effects?

[YOLF]

Me:

Another poster presented a compelling argument against glucosamine causing diabetes and it sounded good to me. I arrived at the same conclusion from a similar but distinct angle too. I'm fairly confident that he's correct.

(reference requests)

 

...

 

The study you are citing is an in-vitro study! You are looking at cells and cells cultures in a petri dish. That is not necessarily how the substances is affecting the tissue in a living organism, where numerous metabolic tissue responses are active and metabolic feedback-loops that interact with other organs and hormones. In-vitro can be useful to understand the mechanism behind an established in-vivo (meaning in a living organism) effect.

 

And we already have plenty of in-vivo data in animals and humans - manifesting itself as numerous extensive RCTs for side effects including effects on glucose metabolism and pancreatic tissue. The very study I was alluding in my posts about no side-effects has an entire section about potential effects on glucose regulation. There are none. As is supported by more recent analysis of in-vivo data:

 

"A comprehensive review of oral glucosamine use and effects on glucose metabolism in normal and diabetic individuals"

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3042150/

 

There are extensive cohort studies in living humans that demonstrate substantial long-term benefits. And a life-extension study in mice demonstrating substantial effects in already old mice.

 

Please folks:

 

it's good to be sceptical. But use common sense. If you want to disprove dozends of RCTs and extensive prospective cohort studies DO NOT use anecdotal evidence and in-vitro studies. Use RCTs or cohort studies that demonstrate negative effects. In-vitro data or anecdotal data alone is almost useless.

 

Another poster presented a compelling argument against glucosamine causing diabetes and it sounded good to me. I arrived at the same conclusion from a similar but distinct angle too. I'm fairly confident that he's correct.

 

[BieraK]

I'm of the mind that sometimes shorter half lives are better because they are more volatile. In the case of AP, what it could mean is more AP faster vs sustained AP.

 

Why not take Glucosamine HCl first and then take the sulfate form 2-4 hours later for lasting effects?

I did a 36 hour fasting experiment with glucosamine.
Short half life of HCL is uncomfortable, you need to redose every hour to feel the effects and is impossible to dose while you are sleeping. My objetive was trying to get the effects of 5 days fasting just by doing two days

Autophagy needs to be sustained like autophagy from fasting, or at least to have 8/12 hours a day of autophagy to get better effects.

I like the effects of glucosamine, but the short half-life of HCL makes it not suitable for boosting autophagy to an extent similar or even better compared to fasting as the studies posted in this thread. 

 

Perhaps you could use both depending of the occasion, HCL for preventing glucose metabolism from breakfast.... but again, if you take just before of your meal you will need to redose because some macronutrients take more time to metabolize like protein. 

And Sulfate perhaps is better for using it two days in a week, like the 5:2 diet, so you could have two days of low to zero calories with massive boost of autophagy by taking 1,5 grams of Sulfate every 8 hours and using HCL in between.
 

But from a first impression Glucosamine looks interesting, it feels clearer compared to Metformin and gives you an subjetive or psychological effect similar of what you get when you are in fasting mode, but again, the effect fades so quick.

 

For example, last night I managed to make 3 sets of 90 squats, in a typical day it is impossible to me to make something similar, however under the Glucosamine effects was so easy, and I know from personal experience that fasting could enhance a lot your exercise capacity and resistance, and this glucosamine effect felt so equal if not better compared to fasting induced exercise resistance. For me working out during fasting is the easiest and safer way of increasing muscle mass, and I'm not talking about muscle growth that dissapears after a cut, I mean long-term muscle that you gain after exercise while fasting. I know this sounds counter intuitive, but the truth is that fasting boost HGH to a superhuman extent and at the same time autophagy primes stem cells for proliferation and differentiation when you re-feed. 

 

The same goes for skin, last night my skin looked younger, the same thing happens with fasting after the 2 or 3 days. However when I wake up today was so difficult to get out of bed I was exhausted like in a sugar crash, such don't thing happens with fasting. The same happened yesterday, but just after a glass of water with glucosamine I was with energy again. All I ate in this 36 hours was an avocado an little bit of oatmeal

These thing mades me conclude that for glucosamine you need a sustained effect in your body if you want to replicate fasting effects.

So an ideal scenario for using Glucosamine HCL:
-07:00 AM after 8 hours of sleeping 1500 mg GlcN

-07:15 Breakfast

-08:00 1000 mg GlcN

-09:00 1000 mg GlcN

 

So you could make your body believe you are in a low carb diet

Edited by BieraK, 18 July 2019 - 07:22 PM.

[BieraK]

Another typical effect I get from fasting mimicking diet cycles, reduced blood pressure.

Weekend my BP was 106/80

 

Today after refeeding phase 97/65, this low BP was after a meal!

 

Thinking a  bit more about GlcN HCL, I think this supplement could enhance a lot a everyday fasting schedule like the 16/8, and due to the short half life it looks perfect for workout days. 16/8 fasting schedule is used in the leangains protocol. So you don't eat nothing for 8 hours after you wake up, just 1000/1500 mg Glucosamine every hour or every two hours. 

 

Edited by BieraK, 18 July 2019 - 07:33 PM.

[YOLF]

I did a 36 hour fasting experiment with glucosamine.
Short half life of HCL is uncomfortable, you need to redose every hour to feel the effects and is impossible to dose while you are sleeping. My objetive was trying to get the effects of 5 days fasting just by doing two days

Autophagy needs to be sustained like autophagy from fasting, or at least to have 8/12 hours a day of autophagy to get better effects.

I like the effects of glucosamine, but the short half-life of HCL makes it not suitable for boosting autophagy to an extent similar or even better compared to fasting as the studies posted in this thread. 

 

Perhaps you could use both depending of the occasion, HCL for preventing glucose metabolism from breakfast.... but again, if you take just before of your meal you will need to redose because some macronutrients take more time to metabolize like protein. 

And Sulfate perhaps is better for using it two days in a week, like the 5:2 diet, so you could have two days of low to zero calories with massive boost of autophagy by taking 1,5 grams of Sulfate every 8 hours and using HCL in between.
 

But from a first impression Glucosamine looks interesting, it feels clearer compared to Metformin and gives you an subjetive or psychological effect similar of what you get when you are in fasting mode, but again, the effect fades so quick.

 

For example, last night I managed to make 3 sets of 90 squats, in a typical day it is impossible to me to make something similar, however under the Glucosamine effects was so easy, and I know from personal experience that fasting could enhance a lot your exercise capacity and resistance, and this glucosamine effect felt so equal if not better compared to fasting induced exercise resistance. For me working out during fasting is the easiest and safer way of increasing muscle mass, and I'm not talking about muscle growth that dissapears after a cut, I mean long-term muscle that you gain after exercise while fasting. I know this sounds counter intuitive, but the truth is that fasting boost HGH to a superhuman extent and at the same time autophagy primes stem cells for proliferation and differentiation when you re-feed. 

 

The same goes for skin, last night my skin looked younger, the same thing happens with fasting after the 2 or 3 days. However when I wake up today was so difficult to get out of bed I was exhausted like in a sugar crash, such don't thing happens with fasting. The same happened yesterday, but just after a glass of water with glucosamine I was with energy again. All I ate in this 36 hours was an avocado an little bit of oatmeal

These thing mades me conclude that for glucosamine you need a sustained effect in your body if you want to replicate fasting effects.

So an ideal scenario for using Glucosamine HCL:
-07:00 AM after 8 hours of sleeping 1500 mg GlcN

-07:15 Breakfast

-08:00 1000 mg GlcN

-09:00 1000 mg GlcN

 

So you could make your body believe you are in a low carb diet

 So you think your blood sugar is spiking when it wears off? I don't think the out competition of glucose is all that worrisome with the GLUT2 explanation. But if you're worried about it, why not take some extra fiber at night with some choline (ime it prevents headaches from taking excess fiber without a meal).

 

I think you may have something unique going on here... I always wake up looking more attractive after some glucosamine... I'm always difficult to wake, but the cosmetic effects don't fade (fast?). I'm also taking lots of other things sporadically which fit in well with glucosamine AP, but I don't have time to explain it.

[BieraK]

 So you think your blood sugar is spiking when it wears off? I don't think the out competition of glucose is all that worrisome with the GLUT2 explanation. But if you're worried about it, why not take some extra fiber at night with some choline (ime it prevents headaches from taking excess fiber without a meal).

 

I think you may have something unique going on here... I always wake up looking more attractive after some glucosamine... I'm always difficult to wake, but the cosmetic effects don't fade (fast?). I'm also taking lots of other things sporadically which fit in well with glucosamine AP, but I don't have time to explain it.

 

I think is difficult for me to wake up because a drop in blood sugar. Something similar happens to me when I take Na-r-ALA or Jiaogulan with my Niacin flush before sleep. 

I think it has to do because you are feeling a heavy drop in blood sugar but your body still is not adapted to the low blood sugar as happens in fasting.

 

That's why just taking another dose of Glucosamine HCL, water and a bit of salt erases all the drowsiness. Glucosamines activates the fasting machinery needed for feeling ok with low levels of blood sugar, AMPK for example and perhaps some other things that I still don't know enough. 

 

Fasting effects is a progressive process you don't wake up feeling great after 24 hours of just water and electrolytes, if you do it in the slow way (without doing exercise, without taking supplements and so on) you will feel great for the third or fourth day when your glycogen level are zero and your brain is using ketones, before such thing you look ugly and feel weak. The second fasting day is the worse in my experience, but the 3, 4, 5 are just "magic".

 

But again, the more you extend your fast, the greater the autophagy. 

 

And fasting has obvious effects on skin quality, and yes you could look younger or healthier.

I will restart my glucosamine experiment in two days.

 

And now I will do a lot of exercise as for today I still feel muscle aches due to the 250 squat I did xD

 

But well, apparently nobody is arguing against my reading of 120 min glucosamine half-life vs 15 hours glucosamine sulfate, So I will order sulfate form for my experiments. 

[William Sterog]

I get crazily hungry and dizzy with Glucosamine + Chondroitin. I am very slim, but this effects scare me a lot, so I don't take it anymore.

[aribadabar]

I get crazily hungry and dizzy with Glucosamine + Chondroitin. I am very slim, but this effects scare me a lot, so I don't take it anymore.

 

That sounds like a big drop of blood sugar to very low levels (sub 4.0 mmol/l). Have you measured it using glucometer during those episodes?

[YOLF]

Anyone tried adding low dose metformin?

[BieraK]

Anyone tried adding low dose metformin

I have used Jiaogulan with Glucosamine.

Nothing bad to report, perhaps enhanced ampk signalling. 

 

I think Berberine could be a better option. 

[YOLF]

Berberine is a powerful ABX that doesn't get into the blood stream. I've used it a few times for various infections or as a prophylaxis for gut infection for celiac related issues, but I've always had to take high dose mega strain probiotics in high doses afterward to get my gut back to normal from mass die off of my microbiome. Berberine looks good on paper... but it's not all that good in practice. 

 

However, some good things can be understood from it. One is that you can circulate the cytoplasm of your dieing microbiome and get some of it into your blood stream where it can fight infections other than gut, so continuous dosing with probiotics can make it useful for fighting random infections using the self defense mechanisms of your microbiome at their expense. As a monotherapy for infections I've seen it work wonders on day one and then lead to a subsequent rebound in the infection where I would have been more susceptible to the ravages of the infection for loss of my microbiome.

 

Maple syrup believe it or not will do similar as it's phenols will make your microbiome leak into your gut where some of the stuff in their cytoplasm will be useful for your body, particularly enzymes? Maple will of course spare more of your microbiome 

 

It would take me hours to cite sources, so do your own homework and don't ask

[GABAergic]

will, you are the only guy with such side effect from glucosamine. you are an old man though, i think its a good thing it makes you want to eat a lot. when people get old, i was reading this, they start to forget eating and drinking enough fluids causing them stress and disease. so why not try to overcome this minor problem and see how it makes you feel long term? how is it a problem if you are hungry from it? i dont see it as a serious side effect at all. maybe you should tests to see if you are diebetic or not, old man

I get crazily hungry and dizzy with Glucosamine + Chondroitin. I am very slim, but this effects scare me a lot, so I don't take it anymore.

 

[William Sterog]

That sounds like a big drop of blood sugar to very low levels (sub 4.0 mmol/l). Have you measured it using glucometer during those episodes?

I have not, but I maybe should be buying one in order to experiment a little with it. I was on a keto diet, so that is possibly playing a huge role. I may try it again in the context of a higher carbohydrate intake, but I got pretty scared last time: chest pain, difficulty breathing, extreme dizziness, anxiety... It does indeed seem to lower sugar levels for me, but, again, I have been in keto for years.

By the way. I am not diabetic, and I am 26 yo.

Edited by William Sterog, 25 July 2019 - 06:57 AM.

[QuestforLife]

I have not, but I maybe should be buying one in order to experiment a little with it. I was on a keto diet, so that is possibly playing a huge role. I may try it again in the context of a higher carbohydrate intake, but I got pretty scared last time: chest pain, difficulty breathing, extreme dizziness, anxiety... It does indeed seem to lower sugar levels for me, but, again, I have been in keto for years.

By the way. I am not diabetic, and I am 26 yo.

Why would you take glucosamine on keto? That's just nuts...so the tiny bit of sugar your body makes for the brain is being outcompeted by glucosamine. Not a smart move.

[William Sterog]

Why would you take glucosamine on keto? That's just nuts...so the tiny bit of sugar your body makes for the brain is being outcompeted by glucosamine. Not a smart move.

Well, I didn't find any information advising against it at the time. Now I feel that it may be pretty dangerous, giving how bad I felt. So I don't recommend it.

[Oakman]

Berberine is a powerful ABX that doesn't get into the blood stream. I've used it a few times for various infections or as a prophylaxis for gut infection for celiac related issues, but I've always had to take high dose mega strain probiotics in high doses afterward to get my gut back to normal from mass die off of my microbiome. Berberine looks good on paper... but it's not all that good in practice. 

 

However, some good things can be understood from it. One is that you can circulate the cytoplasm of your dieing microbiome and get some of it into your blood stream where it can fight infections other than gut, so continuous dosing with probiotics can make it useful for fighting random infections using the self defense mechanisms of your microbiome at their expense. As a monotherapy for infections I've seen it work wonders on day one and then lead to a subsequent rebound in the infection where I would have been more susceptible to the ravages of the infection for loss of my microbiome.

 

Maple syrup believe it or not will do similar as it's phenols will make your microbiome leak into your gut where some of the stuff in their cytoplasm will be useful for your body, particularly enzymes? Maple will of course spare more of your microbiome 

 

It would take me hours to cite sources, so do your own homework and don't ask

 

Don't you have the effect of Berberine backwards? It's good for your microbiome....

 

Berberine and the Microbiome

In Dr. Di Pierro’s review, he shows that berberine’s health benefits in weight loss, insulin resistance and inflammation may largely be the result of modulating the gut flora (microbiome). At first glance, some are confused by the many benefits due to the fact that there is a low percentage of berberine absorbed in our bodies. The answer to this is berberine uses the microbiome!

One of the biggest changes seen in the microbiome with berberine supplementation is that the quantity of the beneficial bacteria Akkermansia muciniphila in the gut increases. This bacteria plays a critical role in gut health because it is a key factor responsible for mucin thickness. Mucin lines the gut, protecting the intestines from damage.

 

https://enzymedica.c...s-super-booster

[YOLF]

Don't you have the effect of Berberine backwards? It's good for your microbiome....

 

Berberine and the Microbiome

In Dr. Di Pierro’s review, he shows that berberine’s health benefits in weight loss, insulin resistance and inflammation may largely be the result of modulating the gut flora (microbiome). At first glance, some are confused by the many benefits due to the fact that there is a low percentage of berberine absorbed in our bodies. The answer to this is berberine uses the microbiome!

One of the biggest changes seen in the microbiome with berberine supplementation is that the quantity of the beneficial bacteria Akkermansia muciniphila in the gut increases. This bacteria plays a critical role in gut health because it is a key factor responsible for mucin thickness. Mucin lines the gut, protecting the intestines from damage.

 

https://enzymedica.c...s-super-booster

Akkermansia muciniphila might be good for alot of things, but so are alot of others that berberine kills off.

 

I suppose what it comes down to is that if I was looking at someone with IBD, I'd find the source of it no matter how complicated or impossible that looks to be (it would be more a matter of accepting a complicated and boring diet). But I suppose IBD is a more convenient and popular diagnosis. So our difference of perspective results in a difference of opinion.