19 replies to this topic

[John250]

Currently I take around 60-80mg amphetamines per day and 10mg Lexapro at night. I’m an ultra metabolizer of both.
rs483069 CA
AA = CYP1A2*1F
rs36017 CG
rs10521329 AC
rs3785155 AG
CYP2D6 rs16947 AG
DBG rs1611115 CT
rs2266782 FMO3 AA

It seems like supplementing with a little bit of lithium Orotate at night may help me. What first dosage would you suggest? Maybe 5 mg? Also would that small of a dose have any risk of serotonin syndrome because of the 10 mg Lexapro? Any benefits or negatives from users experience? Thank you

[maxwatt]

Good luck with that. Why are you taking amphetamines?  For focus and wakefullness, modafinil may work better with fewer side effects.

The smallest lithium orotate pill I found is 50 mg.  I take one a week, as local water and food sources are deficient.  I think weekly dosing would be adequate, it's a cofactor and not eliminated that quickly.

Before 1950, the soft drink 7-up contained 5 to 8 mg of lithium orotate per bottle.   Sounds like a plan.  At that dose, may function as a mood-enhancer.

 

Using escitalopram (lexopro) together with lithium can increase the risk of an irregular heart rhythm that may be serious and potentially life-threatening, although it is a relatively rare side effect.  As you may know.

 

Be careful.  You might want to discontinue lexapro and phase in lithium?  Hope you're working with a doctor you trust on that.

 

Melatonin at 300 MICROgrams at bedtime should help with sleep if that's the issue. 

[John250]

Good luck with that. Why are you taking amphetamines? For focus and wakefullness, modafinil may work better with fewer side effects.
The smallest lithium orotate pill I found is 50 mg. I take one a week, as local water and food sources are deficient. I think weekly dosing would be adequate, it's a cofactor and not eliminated that quickly.
Before 1950, the soft drink 7-up contained 5 to 8 mg of lithium orotate per bottle. Sounds like a plan. At that dose, may function as a mood-enhancer.

Using

escitalopram (lexopro) together

with

lithium can

increase the risk of an irregular heart rhythm that may be serious and potentially life-threatening, although it is a relatively rare side effect. As you may know.

Be careful. You might want to discontinue lexapro and phase in lithium? Hope you're working with a doctor you trust on that.

Melatonin at 300 MICROgrams at bedtime should help with sleep if that's the issue.

Lots of 5mg options:
Pure Encapsulations
KAL
Vital Nutrients
Swanson

There’s even 2.5mg pills:
https://www.amazon.c...ull-spons&psc=1

[airplanepeanuts]

In my understanding lithium orotate in the usual supplement dosage does not produce the side effects and interactions that prescription lithium does.

[shp5]

5mg ororate gives me a good push into sleep after 30-45 minutes. but this effect wears off after a week or so, so you might want to cycle it.

Edited by shp5, 24 February 2019 - 10:03 PM.

[graatch]

Why are you taking amphetamines?  For focus and wakefullness, modafinil may work better with fewer side effects.

 

I can't help but laugh a bit at comments like this.

[CWF1986]

It did help me fall asleep easier.  It also made it more difficult to get out of bed in the morning and it flattened my mood and over-mellowed me out.  Even at just the 5mg.

[cuprous]

I've been taking half a lithium orotate pill twice a day for about 5mg elemental lithium for about 10 days now.  Only time will tell but I'm finding the effects so far to be excellent.  Had recently been dealing with some depressive waves that at times made functioning difficult.  Have a history of anxiety and panic disorder.  So far my mood has been consistent and energetic.  Ability to focus for sustained periods of time seems to be increased.  Typing rate and accuracy might even have been improved as well.

It's not a cure-all by any means but it feels like I'm finally getting a missing nutrient.  I know that's kind of wishy-washy but it's how it feels.  There are lots of interesting studies on pubmed showing lithium causing increased brain matter.  And epidemiological studies showing lower violence and suicide in areas with more lithium in the drinking water.

[coinperson]

I started taking 6mg elemental Lithium tied to 180mg lithium orotate since January.  Really made a difference in my daily brain focus.  I would not go back.   My whole life I have had social anxiety, but it is all but gone now (very freeing).  I would never go back.

I posted somewhere else, but my wife is bi-polar and schizophrenic, and she does not take any prescription meds.  She is well balanced and takes the same.

This plus C60 EVOO has been the pinnacle of my energy and focus in my life. 

You can get it cheaper, but i get mine here: https://www.globalhe...eurofuzion.html
I like that it is tied with other herbs.  The same site sells straight lithium orotate is you wish.  I found that the 6mg 2 times a day was too much for me, once a day is great.

[GABAergic]

coinperson, the supplement you posted contains so many other things how do you know its the lithium doing anything at all? why not just buy plain lithium orotate and test it? and what does 6mg out of 180 lithium orotate mean?

 

i might try it again. i used it before to stop drugs and alcohol as i heard it might help. but actually it made me feel like im on some SSRI. meaning, it made me numb and not able to experience pleasure. im pretty sure it does the same for everyone as it is said to prevent suicide. best suicide prevention usually is making you not give a shit or experience any feelings so you dont go crazy. so i think all of you might experience this indifference on it but arent sure exactly.

 

Edited by GABAergic, 15 March 2019 - 02:48 AM.

[GABAergic]

i was searching for some sources with quality and good reviews and found this; https://www.amazon.c...83&s=hpc&sr=1-4

 

thats perfect score! and its lithium citrate!? ive never heard of lithium citrate. maybe its not the brand, its the actual content which is a form i have not read about before. did anyone ever try or even heard of lithium citrate? could it be the best version?

[coinperson]

coinperson, the supplement you posted contains so many other things how do you know its the lithium doing anything at all? why not just buy plain lithium orotate and test it? and what does 6mg out of 180 lithium orotate mean?

 

i might try it again. i used it before to stop drugs and alcohol as i heard it might help. but actually it made me feel like im on some SSRI. meaning, it made me numb and not able to experience pleasure. im pretty sure it does the same for everyone as it is said to prevent suicide. best suicide prevention usually is making you not give a shit or experience any feelings so you dont go crazy. so i think all of you might experience this indifference on it but arent sure exactly.

GABAergic, fair question.  #1 I started by only taking Lithium Orotate, but then migrated to the Neurofuzion cause I like the other supplements that are in there.  #2 I have been taking all of the other supplements that is in there separately , and never had the awesomeness that is the focus I have today. 

Like I stated in my original post, you can get straight Lithium Orotate from the same place, it is here https://www.globalhe...um-orotate.html

 

All sources of Lithium have elemental Lithium.  Lithium is then combined or extracted with something to make bio available. Lithium is impossible to absorb without being bound to another substance, also known as a "mineral transporter."  You actually do the same thing with calcium (calcium carbonate vs calcium orotate) http://zeusonmedicin...el-approach.pdf | https://www.consumer...ithium/PREVIEW/  | https://oawhealth.co...act-or-fiction/

So now the question is, what is the best transporter and how much lithium do you get and how much transporter do you need.  This is where you get the %elemental lithium vs %Transporter.  From my research, you have:

Lithium Carbonate 18.8% elemental lithium
Lithium Citrate 16% elemental lithium
Lithium Aspartate 4.8% elemental lithium
Lithium Orotate 3.83% elemental lithium

 

https://psycheducati...ithium-orotate/

 

Just because carbonate has more lithium in it, does not mean you absorb it or make it is better! https://efsa.onlinel....efsa.2009.1187

 

Not a lot of studies done on absorption of orotates in lithium, but calcium has shown: https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/2273192 | https://hsionline.co...um-supplements/

Calcium Carbonate 31% absorption
Calcium Citrate 39% absorption
Calcium Aspartate 85% absorption
Calcium Orotate 95% absorption

Similar studies have been done on zinc, magnesium, and potassium (cabonate vs citrate vs orotate)

The crazy thing is what happens with all that unabsorbed stuff?   in calcium, It stays in your arteries and hardens them which leads to heart attacks and strokes. https://www.hopkinsm...amage_the_heart

It has been shown that orotates cross the blood brain barrier.  "Another form of lithium, called lithium orotate, is preferred because the orotate ion crosses the blood-brain barrier easily. Therefore, lithium orotate can be used in much lower servings (e.g. 5 mg) with remarkable results and no side effects." -Shaheen Lakhan, M.D. "Nutritional Therapies for Mental Disorders"

 

i was searching for some sources with quality and good reviews and found this; https://www.amazon.c...83&s=hpc&sr=1-4

 

thats perfect score! and its lithium citrate!? ive never heard of lithium citrate. maybe its not the brand, its the actual content which is a form i have not read about before. did anyone ever try or even heard of lithium citrate? could it be the best version?

Again, absorption in citrate is not even close to orotate among other things...

Edited by coinperson, 15 March 2019 - 11:15 AM.

[GABAergic]

yes, thanks. interesting. im going through those links but it starts to bother me reading orotic acid can be mutagenic and has caused various problems for animals. even if lithium orotate is better absorbed at just 5 mg, it still very low in elemental lithium 3.83%. it will mean that someone taking it for bipolar disorder would need to consume a lot more pills and thus a lot more orotic acid which doesnt seem to have very safe profile. IF lithium orotate was better absorbed and tolerated in fact, physicians would prescribe it instead of carbonate, no? not sure the reason why carbonate is prescription and orotate isnt. this has nothing to do with a patent since that have expired in the 80s from what i know. nobody holds a grip on lithium at this point. anyway just curious about this...

[GABAergic]

ok so i want to update on this. i finished lithium orotate 60 caps about 2 months ago. few weeks ago i checked my lithium levels with my doctor after i told him i was taking lithium orotate for a month prior and i wanted to see if im not in the toxic levels at this point. it was shocking to discover, i had no detectable lithium in me! now thats a huge shock! i finished, if not all 60 caps at least 50 of them at 1mg LI orotate. what does that mean?? is lithium orotate even absorbable? my doc says i would need up to 500mg of lithium for beneficial effect so 1mg is nothing. OR as he put it, supplements can be fake. could it be that the lithium orotate out there being sold as fake?? what else can explain this...

[pamojja]

 what does that mean?? is lithium orotate even absorbable?

 

We absorb all differently. Personally got in average 2.4 mg of lithium per day for the last 10 years (at times up to 5 mg/d). My whole blood lithium results:
 

2012: 0.05 (after first 3 years of supplementing)

2015: 0.06

2018: 0.11

 

Normal range is 0.01 - 0.05 mg/l.

[GABAergic]

mine says normal range is 0.6 to 1.2 mmol/L

mine is undetectable. so what, i should be taking it for 5 years for normal result? lol thats crazy. why not just switch to high dose pharm lithium.

[Daniel Cooper]

Go look at the side effects of high dose lithium (100's to 1000's of mg) as is prescribed for bipolar disorder.  They are not insignificant.  You must do periodic labs to ensure you aren't causing kidney or thyroid damage.

 

5mg lithium orotate is a light dose.  It's actually the magnitude of dose you might consume naturally if you lived in an area where lithium is more abundant in the water and soil (areas btw which have been shown to have lower rates of various mental disorders).

 

At that low level of consumption you're going to have to take it for awhile to have a measurable accumulation, but this is just the sort of level of consumption that we believe to be safe long term with minimal side effects while providing some benefit.

 

 

 

[GABAergic]

i agree with what you are saying but i dont like the idea of popping lithium pills for years to get any detectable levels when i need them the most like right now with my mood destabilization state. i was suicidal just week ago and was in the mental institution for a week before they kicked me out cuz my insurance wouldnt cover it lol

so anyway, i was thinking with all the bad side effects and all, maybe take reliable strong lithium for a while and stop and take breaks in between but have the best high dose possible to know for sure im getting this in me as soon as possible. i cannot wait years and just take small mgs of questionable supplements sold online. thats my other issue with lithium orotate, its not controlled and im not even sure if its the actual ingredient inside. my bottle was stinking of rice filler. it does mention rice in the ingredients, but i wouldnt think its that much rice, whole capsule smelled of it and tasted of it too. see my problem with supplements? thats why i think its good to go for approved controlled drug instead

[Daniel Cooper]

Ah, I didn't realize your situation.

 

You really shouldn't try to treat this yourself.  For the dosage of lithium carbonate you likely need (if lithium is in fact what you need), you'll need blood labs to ensure you're not damaging your kidneys or thyroid.  

 

Don't try to DIY this one.  Lithium can work miracles on a bipolar patient, but you need someone that can navigate the side effects.

 

 

 

[GABAergic]

yeah i probably need special lab tests for this. basic blood work doesnt show detectable levels with supplementation and from what i read, even the higher dose lithium doesnt show until its too high and dangerous. it seems its harder to detect in blood, but its presence in the organs is much higher and this is how it can cause damage without even realizing it based on simple blood work. after researching this, im a bit reluctant to go for it. might as well stick to the supplement? im just worried the supplements i used in the past do not actually contain any lithium or less than stated on label. perhaps i need a special lithium test to find out if they work or not? mind me asking, which supps have you tried and believe to be working best?? ive tried maybe two or so, with the KAL brand being most recent. if you check reviews on amazon, people complain of it smelling real bad and being of poor quality. i just dont like the idea of wasting money trying various supplements to find out which might work :/