7 replies to this topic

[jacobjerondin]

Background, if this is too long for you skip down to the my plan section

Title says it all, unfortunately I've been taking antihistamines, mostly doxylamine succinate which I sometimes switch out for benadryl (diphenhydramine) to fall asleep, both in doses of like 12 - 25mg per night. I started doing this during phenibut withdrawal because it was really hard for me to fall asleep, and while it helped a lot at first, it's been two months now and they aren't working very well now. (I think I'm mostly recovered from the phenibut withdrawal now beyond maybe some weird PAWS.)

I realized that I was dependent on the antihistamines around a month ago and tried to taper down on them but even going slowly my sleep quality has become really bad, I keep waking up after like 5 or 6 hours of sleep if I take around 12mg or maybe 7 to 7.5 hours if I take 25mg.

I think I need to stop taking the antihistamines fully so that I can let my histaminergic system recover, that's what a couple of people have told me now. The thing is that I don't seem to be able to sleep at all without them. I'm already still dealing with some stress from the phenibut PAWS and the damage done to my HPTA axis (I think) and I have a lot of assignments to do for college right now so not sleeping much/at all for days to potentially a week or so isn't a great option for me.

I've tried a bunch of nootropics and herbs to help with sleep, but nothing really seems to be helping me fall asleep and stay asleep as long as I need to. The sleep deprivation is really making me feel out of it and shitty all the time, so I really need a good solution asap.

My plan for the etiz

I'm thinking about getting some etizolam to take so I can finally get some decent sleep. I'm planning to take low to normal doses, probably just 1-2 mg a night if not less, however much will let me sleep well for around 8 hours or so. I will just take it for a week and then taper down over maybe another week once my sleep has seemed to normalize. I know the dangers of taking benzos regularly and from previous experience know that I don't really enjoy them, I see them as more tools for uncomfortable situations. So the risk of addiction seems low to me, but I am worried about getting dependent on them for sleep.

How concerned should I be about dependence given the dosing protocol I'm planning? Will there be rebound insomnia even if I taper my dose? I have a really good scale and am prepared to dose volumetrically and very carefully.

Thanks in advance for any and all advice . I don't have much experience with benzos so any insight is appreciated.

[Moyshekapoyre]

Wow.. by now I'm guessing you are addicted to etizolam? Sorry nobody responded. There are a lot of better alternatives to benzos.

Palmitoylethanolamide dissolved in virgin red palm oil is great in general for anxiety, tho it won't put you to sleep. 

I find glycine (5g or so) is a very nice gentle push to sleep. 

L-THP is a much stronger option which is safe IF used at the proper dose (more than 40mg is too much for me). 

Progressive muscle relaxation and meditation are also great. Try sitting up (not lying down) and meditating (Ajahn Brahm on youtube has lots of good vids on meditation, and his voice also will put you to sleep). 

[jacobjerondin]

Wow.. by now I'm guessing you are addicted to etizolam? Sorry nobody responded. There are a lot of better alternatives to benzos.

Palmitoylethanolamide dissolved in virgin red palm oil is great in general for anxiety, tho it won't put you to sleep. 

I find glycine (5g or so) is a very nice gentle push to sleep. 

L-THP is a much stronger option which is safe IF used at the proper dose (more than 40mg is too much for me). 

Progressive muscle relaxation and meditation are also great. Try sitting up (not lying down) and meditating (Ajahn Brahm on youtube has lots of good vids on meditation, and his voice also will put you to sleep). 

 

Haha nope, don't worry man I'm not a dingus that just decides to do something reckless like starting to take etizolam for sleep without asking around a lot and doing my research. i never would've been addicted anyway imo, just dependent, as I don't really get addicted to drugs in my experience. However dependence on etiz still would've been pretty bad, thankfully I never ended up trying it after people telling me I'd get bad rebound insomnia after just a few days.

 

I actually take oleamide every night to sleep now and find that pretty sedating in a gentle way, like I don't even feel that tired on it but shortly after my head touches the pillow I fall into a deep sleep. It's a lot better than PEA for sleep from what I know. I really want to try glycine for sleep when I can altho I'm not sure if it would be helpful for me given that I've found that sarcosine is pretty stimulating and gives me insomnia these days.

 

A lot of people recommend l-thp but I think that's a truly terrible idea, it messes with blood sugar really badly like all antipsychotics leading to insulin resistance, weight gain, and potentially metabolic syndrome, plus there's always the possible of tardive dyskinesia down the road too.

 

Muscle relaxation and mediation are always solid but not nearly strong enough for me or anyone dealing with serious insomnia.

 

Anyway thanks so much for the help man, I'm actually one of your customers on a website you run (not sure if you want me to mention it or not) and we've texted before too so i really appreciate you being helpful as always!

[Moyshekapoyre]

Haha nope, don't worry man I'm not a dingus that just decides to do something reckless like starting to take etizolam for sleep without asking around a lot and doing my research. i never would've been addicted anyway imo, just dependent, as I don't really get addicted to drugs in my experience. However dependence on etiz still would've been pretty bad, thankfully I never ended up trying it after people telling me I'd get bad rebound insomnia after just a few days.

 

I actually take oleamide every night to sleep now and find that pretty sedating in a gentle way, like I don't even feel that tired on it but shortly after my head touches the pillow I fall into a deep sleep. It's a lot better than PEA for sleep from what I know. I really want to try glycine for sleep when I can altho I'm not sure if it would be helpful for me given that I've found that sarcosine is pretty stimulating and gives me insomnia these days.

 

A lot of people recommend l-thp but I think that's a truly terrible idea, it messes with blood sugar really badly like all antipsychotics leading to insulin resistance, weight gain, and potentially metabolic syndrome, plus there's always the possible of tardive dyskinesia down the road too.

 

Muscle relaxation and mediation are always solid but not nearly strong enough for me or anyone dealing with serious insomnia.

 

Anyway thanks so much for the help man, I'm actually one of your customers on a website you run (not sure if you want me to mention it or not) and we've texted before too so i really appreciate you being helpful as always!

 

Hey, haha, funny... I don't know what the terms of use on longecity are so I have no idea what's appropriate in that regard but anyway, I have tried oleamide--didn't do anything for me, but maybe my expectations were set too high at that time by THP's forcefulness. According to Amazon reviews, oleamide does work for some people for sure. 

 

THP is (from) a traditional chinese medicine, not like a modern antipsychotic drug tho it has some antipsychotic potential, and I have not read about it causing tardive dyskinesia or weight gain. Do you have sources for that? Overdose can cause extrapyramidal symptoms ... and death... but we're not talking about overdose. Here's a study which found a related compound to THP actually reduced tardive dyskinesia: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18220736 and here's one showing that yanhusuo alks are anti-diabetic: https://www.research...ion_in_ICR_mice

Edited by Moyshekapoyre, 28 December 2019 - 04:14 AM.

[jacobjerondin]

Hey, haha, funny... I don't know what the terms of use on longecity are so I have no idea what's appropriate in that regard but anyway, I have tried oleamide--didn't do anything for me, but maybe my expectations were set too high at that time by THP's forcefulness. According to Amazon reviews, oleamide does work for some people for sure. 

 

THP is (from) a traditional chinese medicine, not like a modern antipsychotic drug tho it has some antipsychotic potential, and I have not read about it causing tardive dyskinesia or weight gain. Do you have sources for that? Overdose can cause extrapyramidal symptoms ... and death... but we're not talking about overdose. Here's a study which found a related compound to THP actually reduced tardive dyskinesia: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18220736 and here's one showing that yanhusuo alks are anti-diabetic: https://www.research...ion_in_ICR_mice

 

I don't have any evidence on tardive dyskinesia and you might actually right about that altho tardive dyskinesia tends to develop slowly from what I understand from certain parts of the d2 receptor being upregulated too much (not a very technical explanation I know haha). And I don't think l-thp has been studied long term enough to know whether it would lead to TD or not over time but it would make sense that it could since it's a powerful D2 receptor antagonist like traditional APs. The overall alks of the plant may be anti-diabetic but again by virtue of being a D2 antagonist I believe that it would be pro-diabetic, based simply on studies like these: https://academic.oup.../4/1441/2456633. I can also say anecdotally that it seems to make me a lot hungrier when I take it and i'm pre-diabetic. Based on my experience with insulin resistance as a result of sleep deprivation, the feeling of hunger feels similar. Take that anecdote as you will. 

 

Be careful not to fall into the appeal to nature fallacy, just because it's a traditional herb not a modern pharmaceutical doesn't mean it's better. If it works the same way it should have the same side effects and risks, perhaps less noticeably because it's probably much less strong, but at equivalent doses the risks are probably also equivalent (when using isolated l-thp at least).

[Moyshekapoyre]

I am very careful of the appeal to nature fallacy.

 

Another fallacy tho which many people these days fall into is sort of the opposite, which is the appeal to science fallacy.

 

"WHAT?" You might be asking. Well, I'm probably not going to explain this in the best way, but here's how I understand it.

 

This fallacy states that anecdotal reports (which are the basis of traditional medicine like TCM) are worthless, and it's better to generalize findings such as "things which antagonize D2 receptors will do XYZ" to all things which "antagonize" those receptors. The reason that this seems to work in many cases is because modern drugs often do share many of the same side effects based on their classification. But, it often does not work to compare drugs to herbs using this model, because herbs may contain dozens or hundreds of drugs, and even if we isolate one, like THP, the way that it may antagonize certain D2 receptors may be very different from how modern antipsychotic meds do it.

 

We have to be honest and realize that our current understanding of the human body is still in its infancy. We are in kindergarten, and despite our beautiful scientific methods, we still know a lot less than traditional herbalists about how to cure many diseases (tho in some cases, we may be ahead of them, for sure, depending on the particular herbalist and the particular science-based-medicine practitioner etc).

 

Speaking of pre-diabetes, I also suffered from that a few years ago. I could not tolerate carbs anymore. I found a cure, tho, in chaga mushroom extract. I have no more blood sugar issues at all. And the cure was permanent. I don't take the chaga anymore. Beat that, modern medicine. hehe

[ibtisam_midlet]

You will not become dependent, but mild withdrawal my happen depends on your sleep situation now which is seems bad, it's better to take Quetiapine instead she will make you slept like a baby.

[Moyshekapoyre]

Um... Guest has no idea what she is talking about. You can very easily become dependent... depends on many factors, mental & physical. Don't play with fire. Quetiapine is also a terrible recommendation for sleep. There are so many things I would try before ever trying an antipsychotic med for sleep! Jesus! Glycine is a nice gentle one at 5g, then there's CBD weed like Suver Haze, corydalis yanhusuo or THP is super powerful but narrow therapeutic index, and let's not forget passion flower extract, and of course kava...