54 replies to this topic

[caliban]

Can someone please help clear this up for me?

We all keep hearing that skipping breakfast is a bad thing.

The usual reasons given are:

-1- “You’ll be less hungry later” – I find that whether or not I eat breakfast has very little noticeable influence on my appetite during the day. I don’t do CR, but obviously I’m worried that forcing myself to eat breakfast increases my calorie intake unnecessarily.

-2- “It gives you energy to start the day” – Actually, it makes me feel hungry if its just a bite or makes me feel full if it’s a lot. But I don’t notice improvements in concentration or ‘energy’ - caffeine helps with that .

-3- “It boosts your metabolism” - Here is where I need help. Can you explain to me how that works and why that is a good thing? There seems to be a circadian element there, or is this just handwaving?

I don't really care about children and adolescents (where most of the data seems to be on), and I'm very suspicious that the data on skipping mixes in socioeconomic factors without proper differentiation.


References:

• The Effect of Breakfast Type on Total Daily Energy Intake and Body Mass Index: Results from the Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III)
• Time-of-day-dependent dietary fat consumption influences multiple cardiometabolic syndrome parameters in mice (International Journal of Obesity 34 (11), pp. 1589-1598)
• An examination of the relationship between breakfast, weight and shape (British Journal of Nursing 19 (18), pp. 1155-1159)
• Breakfast size is related to body mass index for men, but not women (Nutrition Research; Volume 30, Issue 4, April 2010, Pages 240-245)
• Circadian timing of food intake contributes to weight gain (Obesity, 17 (11), pp. 2100-2102.)

[Skötkonung]

I think you should eat when you are hungry, providing you have decent leptin sensitivity.

[leha]

I agree. Most of the stuff I have seen about the importance of breakfast never cited any serious research, and I was left feeling it was simply "traditional wisdom," which could be entirely cultural. A lot of the beliefs we have held and cherished and sworn by over time have proved to serve more cultural than physical purposes. A good example is the rain dance, which for many traditional villages was allegedly supposed to make it rain, but which from the outside looking in served the purpose of bringing people together during a tough time. I suspect the notion of breakfast being the most important meal of the day has more to do with the cultural need to share a meal and plan the day than with improving metabolism.

Plus, everyone's body is different. Until someone comes up with hard evidence for the importance of breakfast, I say eat when you feel hungry.

[motif]

I never hungry or rather I'd say never have appetite to eat in the morning but
I learned when I eat just a little bit like a raw egg or slice or ham it helps
with bowel movements a lot. So I'd say take a bite in the morning just to boost digestion system.
Glass of water helps too.

[TheFountain]

I often cannot begin my day metabolically without some energy-intake. That means breakfast, or whatever you call it. I just so happen to be hungry after not eating for 12 or so hours. I don't think it has anything to do with 'breakfast' per se. Plus energy intake makes working out a teensy weensy bit easier.

Edited by TheFountain, 02 December 2010 - 01:19 PM.

[distinct]

I haven't eaten breakfast on the weekdays in over 10 years and have in fact noticed that the further I push my first meal ahead, the more energetic I am during the day and the easier it is to keep my body fat within an acceptable range provided I keep calories the same. If I "miss" meals and thus eat too little calories, I feel mentally sluggish the next morning and need to eat earlier. On weekends I tend to do a lot of walking around and lunch is usually not available or it's hard to find something decent to eat, so I have breakfast.

[Marios Kyriazis]

My general theory is 'avoid routine, have an irregular lifestyle, don't be monotonous or mediocre'. An element of irregularity in everything, (including skipping meals, eating at irregular times and ever-changing the quality and quality of foodstuffs) increases neural, nutritional and other inputs which have a positive effect on health and reduce age-realetd changes.
See this for general details: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15929717

[motif]

My general theory is 'avoid routine, have an irregular lifestyle, don't be monotonous or mediocre'. An element of irregularity in everything, (including skipping meals, eating at irregular times and ever-changing the quality and quality of foodstuffs) increases neural, nutritional and other inputs which have a positive effect on health and reduce age-realetd changes.
See this for general details: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15929717

I like the idea! except maybe of skipping heart bits or breaths...

[kenj]

If I understand it correctly, we have the opportunity to 'ride the cortisol wave', which is high in the morning when we wake up. So, we can convert amino acids into glucose, for energy. I'm not too sure how much caffeine interferes with that process, but I always have some source of caffeine around morning workouts, with a tiny bit of carb, to stimulate insulin (but not spike it!) and avoid nausea during an exercise.
I'm not restricting my calories after the book, but I'm definitely aware of NOT over-consuming, and IME you can adapt to having a low-caloric environment in the morning w/o binging at night. A saved calorie is a saved breath of Life.. 8-). AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.
If we discuss Xtreme longevity, I don't think it's a good idea to "boost your metabolism", like; let's fire up the engine, and crank out some free radicals, make some steam with thoz' protiiins or ~1500 calorie plates!!

Sure if you're lightheaded, weak, and grumpy, have some food in the morning, but IME you can feel fine, give it some time, on an empty stomach...
(Speaking of longevity, the optimal thing AFAIK/IMO would be to eat 3 or 4 meals during the waking hours, on the clock, with a fixed amount of calories, - 1st meal doesn't have to be as soon as you open your eyes, but not many can do that (or are interestet in such a regime).)

[AstralStorm]

Caffeine slightly changes that process into more fat burning (releses fatty acids into the blood, mimicking norepinephrine).
Now the next issue is that you can have a hypoglycemic break if you don't eat your breakfast and do something strenuous - those catabolic mechanisms don't work that fast (esp. protein) and glycogen stores are depleted.
Of course there should be no issues provided your previous meal(s) were large enough to cover it and hard enough to digest.

[Marios Kyriazis]

My general theory is 'avoid routine, have an irregular lifestyle, don't be monotonous or mediocre'. An element of irregularity in everything, (including skipping meals, eating at irregular times and ever-changing the quality and quality of foodstuffs) increases neural, nutritional and other inputs which have a positive effect on health and reduce age-realetd changes.
See this for general details: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15929717

I like the idea! except maybe of skipping heart bits or breaths...

I don't know... It has been shown that young people have a healthy heart rate variability (i.e. their heart is not beating 100% regularly), allowing them to cope with any quick/sudden needs, whereas older people loose this variability and their heart beat becomes more monotonous, and less able to cope with any sudden problems. And the holding of the breath is a notorious way for achieving immortality according to Taoist monks...

[AstralStorm]

I like the idea! except maybe of skipping heart bits or breaths...

I don't know... It has been shown that young people have a healthy heart rate variability (i.e. their heart is not beating 100% regularly), allowing them to cope with any quick/sudden needs, whereas older people loose this variability and their heart beat becomes more monotonous, and less able to cope with any sudden problems. And the holding of the breath is a notorious way for achieving immortality according to Taoist monks...

Yes, immortality after being dead. Great idea.
About heart rate variability - the variability doesn't include skipped beats. That happening too often is sign of a medical condition, usually hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

[TheFountain]

If I understand it correctly, we have the opportunity to 'ride the cortisol wave', which is high in the morning when we wake up. So, we can convert amino acids into glucose, for energy. I'm not too sure how much caffeine interferes with that process, but I always have some source of caffeine around morning workouts, with a tiny bit of carb, to stimulate insulin (but not spike it!) and avoid nausea during an exercise.
I'm not restricting my calories after the book, but I'm definitely aware of NOT over-consuming, and IME you can adapt to having a low-caloric environment in the morning w/o binging at night. A saved calorie is a saved breath of Life.. 8-). AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.
If we discuss Xtreme longevity, I don't think it's a good idea to "boost your metabolism", like; let's fire up the engine, and crank out some free radicals, make some steam with thoz' protiiins or ~1500 calorie plates!!

Sure if you're lightheaded, weak, and grumpy, have some food in the morning, but IME you can feel fine, give it some time, on an empty stomach...
(Speaking of longevity, the optimal thing AFAIK/IMO would be to eat 3 or 4 meals during the waking hours, on the clock, with a fixed amount of calories, - 1st meal doesn't have to be as soon as you open your eyes, but not many can do that (or are interestet in such a regime).)

My understanding is that basal metabolic rate declines as we age (which, btw, is a risk factor for fat gain and subsequent age-related decline). And here is a glimpse into the reasons why. It is quite a linear phenomenon, if you let it be.

Quote:

'Here's where things get a bit more interesting. The researchers went a step further and compared a smaller group of older and younger subjects doing the SAME amount of exercise and/or eating the SAME number of calories.

In contrast to the main group, there was very little difference in adjusted resting metabolic rate in the subgroup of older and younger men matched for calorie intake (71.8 versus 73.8 calories per hour) and exercise volume (73.2 versus 70.4 calories per hour).



In summary, the age-related decline in metabolic rate, even when muscle mass is taken into account, is because of two reasons.

Firstly, there's a strong link between exercise volume and your metabolic rate. In other words, the more exercise you do, the higher your metabolic rate. The fact that people tend to exercise less as they age is partly responsible for the drop in metabolic rate.

Second, metabolic rate is also linked to total calorie intake. This means that the more you eat, the higher your metabolic rate. A reduced metabolic rate in older physically active men is also down to the fact they eat less than their younger counterparts.'

So 'slowing down' with age is definitely related to BMR, does this mean that CR results in more rapid age development in certain aspects?

Edited by TheFountain, 03 December 2010 - 06:34 PM.

[e Volution]

Skipping breakfeast, or rephrased, not eating when advised to by a top down culturally imposed meme, I have never felt better. Much higher and more consistent energy levels throughout the day. I attribute much of this also on adopting a lower-carb diet however, as I have no hunger whatsoever upon waking now. Intermittent Fasting also played into this by switching around how I view energy intake and expenditure in my body. Instead of seeing food as energy (as western culture and education espouse), I see my body as the source of energy, and food simply replenishes these energy stores. A simple switch but (for me) with some profound consequences; you don't eat before exercising you eat after (fasted workouts), you skip breakfast when your not hungry (food is no longer seen as energy to "sustain" you through the day), and you skip a meal or meals when convenient without giving it much thought.

[AstralStorm]

Placebo effect tends to work quite well on "energy levels" and other self-rated values. Go measure something real.

The hypoglycemia might be a problem if your diet is fairly low in calories, like CR, regardless of carbohydrate content.

Also, body needs time to fully adapt to ketosis and other catabolism byproducts though, so a low-carbohydrate diet might have a headstart here - you wouldn't notice any issue because you're ketotic most of the time already. Unfortunately, nobody really knows whether ketosis for extended periods of time is good or bad for you.

[j03]

When you wake up you're coming out of an 8 hour fast (assuming you sleep that long and don't use casein before bed) if you're a bodybuilder or worried about maintaining mass, etc. you would want to get protein and carbs in you as quickly as possibly. That's one reason off the top of my head.

Anecdotally, I find I become fatigued and hypoglycemic/jittery if I don't eat breakfast, so it's important for me to get some carbs in.

[Luna]

I usually feel more energetic if I skip breakfast, I also tend to have less thoughts about eating later the day if I do, as if eating opens up for more.

[motif]

I usually feel more energetic if I skip breakfast, I also tend to have less thoughts about eating later the day if I do, as if eating opens up for more.

I skipped once all three meals for 3 weeks and still felt great
drinking only carrot juice and water and sunning. I can say eating is overrated...

[Luna]

I usually feel more energetic if I skip breakfast, I also tend to have less thoughts about eating later the day if I do, as if eating opens up for more.

I skipped once all three meals for 3 weeks and still felt great
drinking only carrot juice and water and sunning. I can say eating is overrated...

yep, I usually feel great when I fast too and the longer I do it it seems like the more and more the good feeling increases.

[Ace of Zardoz]

If you dont exercise, its more of a personal choice really as whether to eat breakfast or not.

Personally I do much better with regular small meals spaced throughout the day as hungry, though I do require a decent breakfast. When one exercises, especially intensely it is always a good idea to eat breakfast and regularly to fuel your workouts. If you exercise on an empty stomach you wont have the energy needed to perform your best or have great endurance or etc.

I havent seen any real studies on this topic either. I always feel that people should listen to their bodies and do whatever it is that is best for their bodies and what makes them feel best.

[motif]

I havent seen any real studies on this topic either. I always feel that people should listen to their bodies and do whatever it is that is best for their bodies and what makes them feel best.

what study? why all of the sudden we need study on everything why not to listen your instinct, and your body not mention common sense?

[Ace of Zardoz]

I havent seen any real studies on this topic either. I always feel that people should listen to their bodies and do whatever it is that is best for their bodies and what makes them feel best.

what study? why all of the sudden we need study on everything why not to listen your instinct, and your body not mention common sense?

Studies generally verify whether or not something is effective or not and/or harmful or not. Studies are useful for many purposes.

Apparently you didnt fully read what I said as I said:

I always feel that people should listen to their bodies and do whatever it is that is best for their bodies and what makes them feel best.

[motif]

Apparently you didnt fully read what I said as I said:

I always feel that people should listen to their bodies and do whatever it is that is best for their bodies and what makes them feel best.

I read, and I concur with that part. I was just digressing about the "studies" which theses days are so biased and unreliable that almost useless.

[xEva]

I think people who usually skip breakfast have higher fasting glucose than those who need to eat in the morning. I am a no breakfast type and my fasting glucose was in the 90s when I started to check it. So, of course, why would anyone want to eat, if their glucose level is already comfortably high?

I disagree with those who believe that one needs to eat before exercising. I never did, and have always been very sporty. Eating takes away energy (unless you eat like a birdie). The fuller is my stomach, the duller I feel, in all respects, from mental to physical. My fasting days is when I accomplish the most in a best mood and highest levels of energy. e Volution said it best:

Instead of seeing food as energy.., I see my body as the source of energy, and food simply replenishes these energy stores.

It takes energy to replenish those stores. So, eating days are also lazy days for me. But even on eating days I skip breakfast. I just don't feel hungry in the morning.

[Ace of Zardoz]

I think people who usually skip breakfast have higher fasting glucose than those who need to eat in the morning. I am a no breakfast type and my fasting glucose was in the 90s when I started to check it. So, of course, why would anyone want to eat, if their glucose level is already comfortably high?

I disagree with those who believe that one needs to eat before exercising. I never did, and have always been very sporty. Eating takes away energy (unless you eat like a birdie). The fuller is my stomach, the duller I feel, in all respects, from mental to physical. My fasting days is when I accomplish the most in a best mood and highest levels of energy. e Volution said it best:

Instead of seeing food as energy.., I see my body as the source of energy, and food simply replenishes these energy stores.

It takes energy to replenish those stores. So, eating days are also lazy days for me. But even on eating days I skip breakfast. I just don't feel hungry in the morning.

Depends on the exercise. Aerobics are easy to perform on an empty stomach. Even weight lifting can be done on an empty stomach but with more difficulty. Bottom line is though, you wont perform your best (especially lifting weights) if your glycogen stores arent optimal and youre trying to do very intense work on an empty stomach.

Being sporty and doing heavy muscular work or long distance runs are very different so it really depends on what youre doing for exercise as to whether or not you notice a difference.

No one should be eating enough to feel a difference in their alertness of performance. That is too much. Ideally humans are grazers designed to eat lightly and frequently throughout the day such as 6 small meals in a day for example. We share a very high percentage of our DNA with chimpanzees due to interbreeding way back on the evolutionary ladder. We share a lot of traits and habits and expressions with chimpanzees. Chimpanzees our closest cousins are grazers and dont eat big meals and that should be a clue to how we were designed to operate. I dont know of a single primate for that matter that sits down and consumes a heavy meal. It would be an evolutionary disadvantage as a species anyways.

[xEva]

Aerobics are easy to perform on an empty stomach. Even weight lifting can be done on an empty stomach but with more difficulty. Bottom line is though, you wont perform your best (especially lifting weights) if your glycogen stores arent optimal and youre trying to do very intense work on an empty stomach.

-???
Indeed, if you want to perform your best, your stomach must be empty. The state of your stomach and your glycogen stores have nothing to do with each other. How long your glycogen stores last depends on how well your body also utilizes other sources of energy, like fat and protein, not just glycogen.

Being sporty and doing heavy muscular work or long distance runs are very different so it really depends on what youre doing for exercise as to whether or not you notice a difference.

In school I was a champion sprinter and high-jumper. Nowadays, when I exercise, I run some and pump iron some, always finishing with yoga and sauna. I can't imagine eating beforehand, nor for couple of hours after. The mere idea is nauseating to me... sorry...

No one should be eating enough to feel a difference in their alertness of performance. That is too much.

Of course not. I don't think we are talking about the same things here though.

If you ever experience high performance on absolutely empty stomach (that's at the very least 2 hrs past a very-very light meal -- I would never dream of exercising against this rule) you will know what to compare your regular performance with. The fact is that, in order to assimilate food, your body needs to divert some of its resources from your current physical performance. There is no going around it. If you absolutely must eat just before you exercise, I dare say that your metabolism is not trained in utilizing energies available to you. And indeed, why should it be trained in such things, if you've never done it...

[Ace of Zardoz]

It sounded like you meant something different before. I get what you are saying now. Although personally I dont do well with skipping breakfast and then trying to do intense weight routines or exercise in general. I suppose its a matter of personal performance and one's body and how it works best.

I personally eat every few hours and I do agree with the 2 hour rule whole heartedly. All my meals are quite light personally. So I agree with what youre saying.

[AstralStorm]

About that "grazing" thing - we don't have enough evidence, but it is likely.
The more proper reference would be a more carnivorous monkey I think. Oh, and of course thinking requires more energy, preferably constantly,
so I suspect humans do have better glycogen stores than most other animals.
Any information on that?

[TheFountain]

Aerobics are easy to perform on an empty stomach. Even weight lifting can be done on an empty stomach but with more difficulty. Bottom line is though, you wont perform your best (especially lifting weights) if your glycogen stores arent optimal and youre trying to do very intense work on an empty stomach.

-???
Indeed, if you want to perform your best, your stomach must be empty. The state of your stomach and your glycogen stores have nothing to do with each other. How long your glycogen stores last depends on how well your body also utilizes other sources of energy, like fat and protein, not just glycogen.

Being sporty and doing heavy muscular work or long distance runs are very different so it really depends on what youre doing for exercise as to whether or not you notice a difference.

In school I was a champion sprinter and high-jumper. Nowadays, when I exercise, I run some and pump iron some, always finishing with yoga and sauna. I can't imagine eating beforehand, nor for couple of hours after. The mere idea is nauseating to me... sorry...

No one should be eating enough to feel a difference in their alertness of performance. That is too much.

Of course not. I don't think we are talking about the same things here though.

If you ever experience high performance on absolutely empty stomach (that's at the very least 2 hrs past a very-very light meal -- I would never dream of exercising against this rule) you will know what to compare your regular performance with. The fact is that, in order to assimilate food, your body needs to divert some of its resources from your current physical performance. There is no going around it. If you absolutely must eat just before you exercise, I dare say that your metabolism is not trained in utilizing energies available to you. And indeed, why should it be trained in such things, if you've never done it...

I think this last point is arrogant presumption.

Some people just have different basal metabolic rates, dependent on various things, including ones size or build. Some people need to eat before work outs, some do not. Let's not make some wildly assertive absolute statements about this just because X=Y for us. None of us know every minute detail of human physiology nor the variances between differing biological environments. So let's cut out the arrogant talk please.

Edited by TheFountain, 13 December 2010 - 06:55 AM.

[AstralStorm]

As far as I do remember, the recommendation not to skip breakfast was made after studying behavior of people not eating them,
which usually was eating junk foods. Now, I need to find the source for that...