16 replies to this topic

[smithx]

After having taken repeated courses of ciprofloxacin and other quinolones over the years (not recently), my connective tissue is quite weakened.

 

One of my ligaments was completely severed in a very low impact situation that the orthopedists all said was very unusual: they usually only see that degree of injury in car accidents. Lately I've noticed other connective tissue is easily damaged and am worrying that more of these severe injuries are likely.

 

It would be very helpful if people here have some suggestions for any supplements which could restore at least some of the strength of my weakened connective tissue. I am hoping for suggestions based on published studies, not conjecture.

 

The damage caused by quinolones seems to be related to magnesium and calcium depletion within connective tissue, and also may kill chondrocytes (see https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2921747/ ).

 

I do supplement with magnesium citrate and vitamins D and K and take collagen (and NMN and other things, for that matter), but wonder if there's anything else I could be doing to either strengthen or at least reduce the chance of further weakening.

 

Thanks for any and all well-researched suggestions!

 

[RichardAlan]

Sorry I cannot answer the op but I have a slightly related question.  If not Cipro, then does anyone know a good alternative antibiotic for UTIs . 

[smithx]

Safest may be Monurol, which is fosfomycin tromethamine. Usually  taken as a single dose. It has a long half life and lasts 3 days in the body. But not all UTIs will respond to it.

 

 

Sorry I cannot answer the op but I have a slightly related question.  If not Cipro, then does anyone know a good alternative antibiotic for UTIs . 

 

[Daniel Cooper]

Spitballing - BPC-157?

 

 

 

[Phoebus]

Type 1 collagen, lots of it. At least 10 grams/day 

 

 

 

Histologically, tendons consist of dense regular connective tissue fascicles encased in dense irregular connective tissue sheaths. Normal healthy tendons are composed mostly of parallelarrays of collagen fibers closely packed together. They are anchored to bone by Sharpey's fibres. The dry mass of normal tendons, which makes up about 30% of their total mass, is composed of about 86% collagen, 2% elastin, 1–5% proteoglycans, and 0.2% inorganic components such as copper, manganese, and calcium.^[1][2] The collagen portion is made up of 97–98% type I collagen, with small amounts of other types of collagen. These include type II collagen in the cartilaginous zones, type III collagen in the reticulin fibres of the vascular walls, type IX collagen, type IV collagen in the basement membranes of the capillaries, type V collagen in the vascular walls, and type X collagen in the mineralized fibrocartilage near the interface with the bone.^[1][3]

 

my thread on it. What type of collagen are you taking and how much? 

 

https://www.longecit...ce-of-collagen/

 

for the minerals Cu, Mn, Ca, etc eat lots and lots and lots of leafy greens. 

Edited by Phoebus, 29 April 2019 - 02:28 PM.

[Phoebus]

This looks like a great review of various tendon repair methods 

 

https://www.hand.the...0113-1/abstract

 

to get the full study you can ask here 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Scholar/

 

topical hyaluronic acid works well in dogs 

 

https://www.scienced...363502389800851

Edited by Phoebus, 29 April 2019 - 02:36 PM.

[smithx]

Thanks Phoebus.

 

Do you have any references indicating that type 1 collagen is helpful and that 10gm/day is a good dose?

 

Type 1 collagen, lots of it. At least 10 grams/day 

 

 

my thread on it. What type of collagen are you taking and how much? 

 

https://www.longecit...ce-of-collagen/

 

for the minerals Cu, Mn, Ca, etc eat lots and lots and lots of leafy greens. 

 

[smithx]

Those studies concern surgical repair of tendons. I am looking for methods of strengthening all my tendons and ligaments to correct the weakening caused by these drugs.

 

That way, I hope to avoid surgery!

 

 

This looks like a great review of various tendon repair methods 

 

https://www.hand.the...0113-1/abstract

 

to get the full study you can ask here 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Scholar/

 

topical hyaluronic acid works well in dogs 

 

https://www.scienced...363502389800851

 

[Rocket]

Nandrolone deconate works wonderfully! Even as a low as 100mg/week. I speak from experience of damaged shoulders. Nadrolone + GHPR2 + BPC157 or HGH in place of GHRP2 is the holy grail of tendon healing,

 

 

[Phoebus]

Thanks Phoebus.

 

Do you have any references indicating that type 1 collagen is helpful and that 10gm/day is a good dose?

 

yes click on the longecity thread I linked 

[smithx]

Thanks Rocket.

 

Can you link to any studies which support the use of any of these compounds for connective tissue healing or strengthening?

 

It would also be helpful to know more about your experience.

 

 

Nandrolone deconate works wonderfully! Even as a low as 100mg/week. I speak from experience of damaged shoulders. Nadrolone + GHPR2 + BPC157 or HGH in place of GHRP2 is the holy grail of tendon healing,

 

[Benko]

You might check into Gotu kola.

It is recommended to speed wound healing (which worked for me—gum graft healed much faster than expected) and might help heal damaged ligaments faster than usual. No idea if that would do what you want.

Edited by Benko, 30 April 2019 - 11:56 PM.

[drgs]

Copper, Vitamin B5, collagen supplements, which you are already taking, cissus quadrangularis, heteropterys aphrodisiaca, eccentric strength training

 

http://www.ergo-log....n-athletes.html

http://www.ergo-log....b5-tendons.html

https://www.ergo-log...hrodisiaca.html

[Astroid]

Well, my friend.. You are in Luck.

 

It just so happened I tore both bicep tendons 10 years ago dead-lifting 500 lbs ! 

I sort of jerked it .. instead of lifting. 

 

After 3 years, the Andrews Sports Institute did not have an answer.

I was bummed out.. in pain.. I wore knee straps around it to do work.

Could not put my left arm straight at night sleeping.. without pain. 

 

Then.. a smart friend who worked in the Nuclear and Chemical Industry told me..

 

"Tendons, Ligaments and Nerves are the slowest things to heal in the body."

He fell on a motorcycle and ripped his once and used ... 

 

  "Systemic Enzymes"  he recommended Vitalzym, used in Europe as a pain killer. 

 

  So I bought them off Amazon.. 

  Recommended dosage was 3 small bee waxed pills/day.

  After 10 days I did not see any results.. 

  So I increased the dosage to 6 @ 3-4x/day.

  I healed Both Biceps 90% in 90 days !

 

  * * *

 

  Having some knee issues.. I later came across..

 

  Gallium Nitrate dot com .. used by $ $ $ Million Race Horses.. for their Knees..

    

  Specifically.. it reduces inflammation, thus pain.. but mainly it helps horses Ligaments.. ABSORB Nutrition.

 

  * * *

 

  Finally... 

 

  Ozone Therapy.. also known as Prolotherapy.. injections..

  With Stem Cells and Growth Hormones.. 

  will even regrow knee cartridge.  

  Stem Cells will regrow anything. 

 

  I have had it done to my left shoulder, elbow, lower back and neck (because of an auto accident),

  And have had each knee injected 4 times.. as a preventative measure.. to improve the cartridge..

  We also injected around the knee while doing this. 

  Since I weight lifted so much.  

 

 Ozone Therapy.. causes Inflammation.. to speed the healing.

 So.. you can not be on anti-inflammatory supplements while doing this. 

  

  

[Matt]

Sorry I cannot answer the op but I have a slightly related question.  If not Cipro, then does anyone know a good alternative antibiotic for UTIs . 

 

Trimethoprim or Doxycycline work pretty well for uncomplicated and complicated UTI. 

 

Alternatively, if it's just a simple bladder infection caused by E coli, you can try D Mannose. It's not an antibiotic, but e coli attach to the sugar and then exit the bladder. Some studies show that it's more effective than prophylactic antibiotics 

 

I used to have CBP from a UTI that didn't get treated. I managed to cure it in 2012 by using Doxycycline + Quercetin + Allicin + Beta Glucan. Half of the issue though was muscle tension which was triggered by the initial infection. I won't go into that unless someone wants to know... but muscle tension can give very similar symptoms to an infection.

 

D-mannose powder for prophylaxis of recurrent urinary tract infections in women: a randomized clinical trial.

"Overall 98 patients (31.8%) had recurrent UTI: 15 (14.6) in the D-mannose group, 21 (20.4) in Nitrofurantoin group, and 62 (60.8) in no prophylaxis group, with the rate significantly higher in no prophylaxis group compared to active groups (P < 0.001). Patients in D-mannose group and Nitrofurantoin group had a significantly lower risk of recurrent UTI episode during prophylactic therapy compared to patients in no prophylaxis group (RR 0.239 and 0.335, P < 0.0001)."

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/23633128

 

D-mannose: a promising support for acute urinary tract infections in women. A pilot study.

Mean UTISA scores recorded after completing the treatment, compared with baseline scores, showed a significant improvement of the majority of symptoms (p < 0.05). D-mannose seemed to have had a significant positive effect on UTIs' resolution and QoL improvement (p = 0.0001). As prophylactic agent administered for 6 months, it showed promising results (4.5% vs. 33.3% recurrences in treated and untreated patients respectively).

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27424995

Edited by Matt, 03 August 2019 - 09:43 PM.

[Matt]

After having taken repeated courses of ciprofloxacin and other quinolones over the years (not recently), my connective tissue is quite weakened.

 

One of my ligaments was completely severed in a very low impact situation that the orthopedists all said was very unusual: they usually only see that degree of injury in car accidents. Lately I've noticed other connective tissue is easily damaged and am worrying that more of these severe injuries are likely.

 

It would be very helpful if people here have some suggestions for any supplements which could restore at least some of the strength of my weakened connective tissue. I am hoping for suggestions based on published studies, not conjecture.

 

 

I experienced the same thing and it lasted for about two years. It took me a long time to recover from bilateral achilles tendinitis which appeared a within hours of taking Cipro. I also noticed that I would keep getting muscle, tendon and ligament injuries even just doing normal activities or exercise that I had no problems with before.

 

One of the things that helped me was Yoga, but I had to be really careful. I messed up a few times by pushing too much and then re-injured myself. Ultimately though, once I knew my limits, it was steady progress from there. The only way to get out of the cycle was to strengthen my tendons like stair lift exercises.

 

The good news is, this was in 2007... and now I have none of these problems. I don't get injured even with doing intense exercise. 

 

I did take a lot of supplements to help me recover http://www.crvitalit...m-cipro-floxed/

 

This is the thread that I posted shortly after taking Cipro

https://www.longecit...ience-very-bad/

 

 

The damage caused by quinolones seems to be related to magnesium and calcium depletion within connective tissue, and also may kill chondrocytes (see https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2921747/ ).

 

 

It was interesting that I had issues with low magnesium in the past (2005) where I suffered palpitations and twitching for months. It resolved after taking magnesium from the store. I might have stopped magnesium at the time... but now I take magnesium citrate every day.

 

Some people suggested that being on a pretty strict CR diet also might've made me more susceptible. There's a lot of transcriptional changes in the muscle, tendons, etc that could be an issue.

 

Personally, I will never touch a quinolone antibiotic ever again. It was HELL. lol

[timedilation]

Nandrolone deconate works wonderfully! Even as a low as 100mg/week. I speak from experience of damaged shoulders. Nadrolone + GHPR2 + BPC157 or HGH in place of GHRP2 is the holy grail of tendon healing,

 

Is there any reason you prefer GHRP2 over other secretagogues like GHRP6, Mod-GRF-1, Ipamorelin, etc.?