21 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

Aren't you guys mega-dosing K2 scared of blood clot formation? 

 

I mean, does it raise the risks if you're going above, say, 90 mcgs daily?

 

I am sure everyone wants to know. 

 

 

[TheFountain]

I appreciate the ill informed vote but inform me with an explanation.

[pamojja]

I appreciate the ill informed vote but inform me with an explanation.

 

I wasn't the one who voted, but I agree I find it difficult to convince you to actually read and understand for yourself:

 

http://www.k-vitamin...p?page=Clotting

 

I don't mean taking the opinion of this article for granded, but by verifying the studies he referenced yourself.
 

[WillNitschke]

How do you define 'mega dose' ?

Is that meant to be anything above 90mcg (of MK-7 presumably) ?

There is no known toxicity level for Vitamin K, so exactly what non-existent information are you scared of?

I have observed that doctors generally advise against supplementing with K2 if you're on blood thinners, for what strikes me as obvious reasons.

[ironfistx]

Can you tell us each version of K2 you're referring to?  When I take mega doses of MK-4 I get nosebleeds.  Blood clots?

[APBT]

 

SOURCE:  https://www.lifeexte...tamin-K/Page-01

 

By Lisa Stanton

Recent studies have expanded our understanding of vitamin K.

We’ve long known it to be essential for bone density along with heart health.^1-3

One study found that people aged 55 and older with the highest intake of vitamin K had a 57% lower rate of death from coronary heart disease over 10 years—and a 26% lower rate of death from any cause.⁴

A 2017 study showed that people with the highest intake of vitamin K had a 22% lower rate of bone fractures.⁵

More ways have been discovered to optimize vitamin K’s benefits.

This has enabled researchers to create a more biologically-active vitamin K formula.

Vitamin K in Food

 

Scientists have identified different forms and amounts of vitamin K that are found in foods.

This work provides crucial insights into the types of vitamin K we should be consuming.

It also reveals limitations in relying on food to supply the types and levels of vitamin K associated with peak bone and cardiovascular health.

Forms of Vitamin K

Vitamin K in food comes in two general forms:

1. Vitamin K1 (or phylloquinone), found primarily in leafy green vegetables.
2. Vitamin K2, found in natto or fermented soy, and in animal products such as eggs, meat, milk, and cheese.⁶

Vitamin K2 has several subtypes denoted by a number, such as MK-4, MK-6, and MK-7.

MK stands for menaquinones, which are forms of vitamin K that vary in their organic structure.

One epidemiological study showed that some forms of menaquinone, such as MK-7 and MK-9, appear to be most powerful in preventing coronary heart disease.⁷

MK7 is a long-acting form of vitamin K that has been available as a dietary supplement for many years. MK-9 has only recently become available in supplement form.

Limits to Dietary Intake of Vitamin K

Studies show that there are problems in relying on diet to supply all these forms of vitamin K.

Vitamin K1 in foods has low bioavailability.⁸ This means that even if you eat a large amount of leafy green vegetables, you may not absorb adequate amounts of vitamin K1.

Vitamin K2 is found in highest concentrations in many foods that people try to limit, such as foods high in saturated fat.⁹ One would have to consume massive amounts of cheese to achieve the optimal K2 levels that are supported by human clinical trials. And low-fat versions of these foods often have much less vitamin K2 content, or even none at all.⁹

Supplementation is a more efficient and practical way of increasing vitamin K intake. But what are the optimal doses of the various types of vitamin K that we should be consuming daily?

WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW

Broad-Spectrum Vitamin K

• Vitamin K is an essential vitamin found in two general forms, K1 and K2.
• Research has revealed that vitamin K is important not only for blood clotting but also for bone and cardiovascular health.
• Research has also helped clarify the ideal doses of vitamin K1 and K2 needed to optimize bone and heart health.
• Due to poor bioavailability and high fat content of foods containing the most vitamin K, obtaining adequate vitamin K in the diet is problematic.

New Studies, New Dosing

Several recent clinical trials in humans have demonstrated that adequate vitamin K supplementation can have a significant impact on bone and cardiovascular health.

Vitamin K1 Dosing

A one-year, randomized, controlled trial evaluated vitamin K1 supplementation in adults with calcification in their aortic valve, one of four valves that regulate blood flow through the heart.¹⁰Degenerative heart valve disease such as this can lead to impaired heart function and heart failure if it progresses.¹¹

Subjects received either 2,000 mcg of vitamin K1 daily or a placebo. Those who received vitamin K1 benefited from a reduction in the progression of aortic valve calcification, based on both imaging and biochemical markers. Disease progression was cut by more than half by vitamin K1 supplementation.¹⁰

It’s a remarkable result. One would have to eat almost 14 cups of spinach a day to achieve this level of vitamin K1 intake.¹²

Aortic stenosis is a narrowing of the heart’s aortic valve. Some people have this problem due to a congenital defect (i.e. bicuspid valve), but most develop it as a result of aging, with calcification and/or fibrotic scarring of the valve.

Age-related aortic stenosis usually starts in the sixth decade of life, and early treatment can reduce the risk of progression of the narrowing, which can lead to heart failure if left untreated.

The only definitive treatment is surgery, either valve repair or valve replacement. An exciting new approach called transcatheter aortic valve replacement (TAVR) can allow valve replacement without the need for open-heart surgery. However, TAVR may pose a greater risk of stroke in some patients.

Vitamin K2 Dosing: MK-4

Research has helped establish dosing levels that maximize the benefits of the MK-4 form of vitamin K2 on bone health.

Two recent trials used a dose of 1,500 mcg of MK-4 per day in healthy, postmenopausal women, and compared them to a group receiving a placebo.^13,14 Postmenopausal women are at high risk for developing loss of bone density, osteoporosis, and subsequent risk for bone fractures.¹⁵

Both studies demonstrated a significant improvement in bone density in the group receiving vitamin K2. They had higher levels of the active form of osteocalcin, indicating more new bone formation.^13,14

In one of the studies, subjects receiving MK-4 also had a stabilization of their forearm bone mineral density, while those in the placebo group continued to show progressive loss of bone density over the year of the study.¹⁴

Vitamin K2 Dosing: MK-7

Another group of researchers followed 244 healthy postmenopausal women for three years and examined the effects of the MK-7 form of vitamin K2 on both bone and cardiovascular health. The results of their findings were published in two separate publications.^16,17

Participants took either 180 mcg of MK-7 daily or a placebo. Again, researchers found improvements in markers of both bone and blood vessel health in the supplemented group.^16,17

Additionally, the ratio of inactive to active osteocalcin improved by 58%. (Only active osteocalcin helps to synthesize bone.) Furthermore, bone mineral content, bone mineral density, and bone strength were all significantly improved in the group taking MK-7.¹⁷

In terms of blood vessel health, vitamin K2 supplementation helped to preserve the flexibility of arteries by reducing arterial stiffness. While those receiving a placebo had worsening arterial stiffness, those taking vitamin K not only preserved arterial flexibility, but decreased stiffness by about 6%.¹⁶

Those individuals with more advanced arterial stiffness at the start of the study improved the most.¹⁶This indicates that vitamin K not only preserves blood vessel health, it also appears to be able to help reverse existing blood vessel disease.

VITAMIN K AND CLOTTING: WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW

Although vitamin K is critical to the normal process of blood clotting, supplementation with vitamin K is not associated with any increased risk of abnormal, harmful clotting, such as that associated with heart attack and stroke.

Even studies with very high doses of vitamin K have demonstrated its safety, without any adverse events.^10,22,23

But there is one extremely important caveat to consider when starting a vitamin K supplement.

Powerful anticoagulant medications such as warfarin (brand name Coumadin®) and other related drugs act by blocking vitamin-K-dependent pathways, decreasing the ability of the body to produce several important blood clotting factors. These drugs are used in patients who are at high risk of dangerous, abnormal clotting. For example, they may be used in patients being treated for atrial fibrillation, heart valve disease, deep vein thrombosis, and/or pulmonary embolism.

Vitamin K acts as an antagonist to the anti-clotting effect of warfarin and similar drugs. Therefore, taking higher levels of vitamin K can interfere with the desired clinical effect and increase the chance of clotting in these patients.

Patients taking warfarin (Coumadin®) or related medications should consult their prescribing doctor before taking any vitamin K supplement.

But vitamin K does not in any way interact with newer/novel, oral anticoagulants like Xarelto® (rivaroxaban), Pradaxa® (dabigatran), or Eliquis® (apixaban). These newer, oral anticoagulants work by inhibiting venous clotting through thrombin or Factor Xa, independent of vitamin K. Vitamin K supplementation can be used safely with these drugs since there is no potential for interaction. In addition, there are available antidotes to bleeding with the newer drugs. Dangerous or life-threatening bleeding with Pradaxa® can be reversed by Praxbind® (idarucizumab). Recently (May, 2018), Andexxa® (andexanet alfa) was approved to reverse life-threatening bleeding with Xarelto® and Eliquis®.

Novel Vitamin K2 Subtypes

Food sources of vitamin K2 provide an assortment of other MK forms as well, including MK-6 and MK-9. Although clinical trials have not yet been performed for most of these forms, observational studies suggest many benefits.

For example, a study followed a group of more than 16,000 individuals to evaluate the impact of intake of specific vitamin K forms on risk of coronary heart disease.⁷ It found that those who consumed higherlevels of vitamin K reduced their risk of heart disease. Much of this effect could be attributed to the longer MK forms, such as MK-7 and MK-9.

The study also found that the risk of coronary heart disease was reduced by 9% for every additional 10 mcg of vitamin K2 consumed per day in individuals aged 49 to 70.⁷

Vitamin K’s Role in Bones and Blood Vessels

 

The effect of vitamin K on the production of blood clotting factors crucial for normal clotting has been well understood. But research has just recently revealed its impact on bones and blood vessels.

Several proteins have been discovered in both bone and blood vessels that are vitamin K-dependent. This means that they require adequate levels of vitamin K to function.^2,3

Vitamin K is essential for producing active osteocalcin, a bone hormone involved in new bone formation and often used as a biochemical marker of overall skeletal health.

Vitamin K supports the deposition of calcium in bone.

In blood vessels vitamin K has the opposite effect of helping to prevent excess calcium deposition. Calcification in arteries is common in older age and is associated with arterial stiffening, atherosclerotic plaque, and increased risk for heart and kidney 
disease.³

Vitamin K and Cardiovascular Disease

 

Several other studies have shown benefits of vitamin K for cardiovascular health.^2-4,7,18

A study of vitamin K intake in 564 postmenopausal women found that higher vitamin K2 levels were associated with protection from coronary artery calcification.¹⁸ Those with the highest intake had a 20% lower rate of calcification than those with the lowest intake.

And in a study that followed 4,807 adults aged 55 and older, for up to 10 years,⁴ several negative cardiovascular outcomes were shown to be less common in those subjects with the highest intake of vitamin K2, compared to those with the lowest intake.

The rate of new diagnoses of coronary heart disease during follow-up was 41% lower in those with the highest intake of vitamin K2. Most dramatically, death due to coronary heart disease was 57% lower in those with the highest intake, and death by any cause was 26% lower.⁴

Reduced Fracture Risk

Several other studies have found that various forms of vitamin K supplementation improve the osteocalcin status of participants, an important marker of new bone formation and overall bone health.^{13,14,17,19-22}

But it is important to ask whether the rate of bone fractures is reduced with increased vitamin K dietary intake.

A study published in the journal Medicine in 2017 investigated just that question.⁵ Researchers performed an extensive meta-analysis, pooling data from close to 81,000 individuals. Overall, they found there was a 22% lower rate of fractures in those individuals with the highest intake of vitamin K, confirming a protective effect of vitamin K against fractures.

In addition, the scientists found a dose-response relationship, with a 3% lower rate of fracture for every 50 mcg of vitamin K consumed per day.⁵

Summary

Vitamin K is an essential nutrient that is being recognized for more health benefits than just aiding blood clotting.

Scientific research demonstrates that adequate intake of vitamin K is crucial for optimal bone, heart valve, and blood vessel health.

New studies reveal the importance of new forms of vitamin K that are associated with reduced risk of age-related outcomes.

Using this knowledge, scientists have created a broad-spectrum vitamin K formula, with beneficial MK-6 and MK-9 compounds, along with K1, MK-4, and MK-7.

 

 

[Malf]

Can you tell us each version of K2 you're referring to?  When I take mega doses of MK-4 I get nosebleeds.  Blood clots?

 

That sounds scary that you got nosebleeds.

 

I keep hearing people saying take D3 with K2 but then others said that D3 that are oil based are safe, the reason that they suggested taking K2 with D vitamins before is because they were tablet form and contained calclum

 

So what is the suggesting now, just take D3 by itsself or still take K2, Im scared of the blood clotting

[Gal220]

You absolutely want to take D3 with K2 if you want calcium in your bones instead of your arteries.

 

 

Sinatra, an online cardiologist on K2

 

"Vitamin K-2 helps the liver produce clotting factors that remain inactive until called upon – so it won’t promote unnecessary or excess blood clotting"

 

 

Chris Masterjohn on K2

 

"Based on the current state of that research, I recommend 100-200 μg per day of vitamin K2 for healthy adults. Although most of the benefit probably comes from the first 100 μg, 200 μg is harmless and may provide additional benefit"

 

 

There are issues with warfarin

 

"If you are being treated with warfarin to avoid potential blood clots, this can not be combined with vitamin K2 unless the doctor does the extra work of including that in his calculations of the INR."

[Oakman]

Aren't you guys mega-dosing K2 scared of blood clot formation? 

 

I mean, does it raise the risks if you're going above, say, 90 mcgs daily?

 

I am sure everyone wants to know. 

 

No not really. Why? Because I take many other supplements that are anti-clotting. My theory is that Vit K simply helps balance out these other factors.

 

The formulation I use is called Vitamin K, Triple Play. And I take D3 along with that.

 

K1 100 mcg (phytonadione)

K2 400 mcg (menatetrenone MK-4)

K2 50 mcg (menaquinone MK-7)

 

I've taken it a long time about a year, so no observable ill effects. My theory seems to be a workable one.

[pamojja]

I've taken it a long time about a year, so no observable ill effects. My theory seems to be a workable one.

 

Same here. Not one nose-bleed or abnormal clotting - or any other side-effect - from taking the following in average for the last 12 year. Along with all cofactors and monitoring blood-work:

 

 

K1 4.7 mg (phytonadione)

K2 17 mg (menatetrenone MK-4)

K2 0.5 mg (menaquinone MK-7)

A large collection of research about K-vitamins and clotting: https://www.k-vitami...p?page=Clotting

[protoject]

No not really. Why? Because I take many other supplements that are anti-clotting. My theory is that Vit K simply helps balance out these other factors.

 

The formulation I use is called Vitamin K, Triple Play. And I take D3 along with that.

 

K1 100 mcg (phytonadione)

K2 400 mcg (menatetrenone MK-4)

K2 50 mcg (menaquinone MK-7)

 

I've taken it a long time about a year, so no observable ill effects. My theory seems to be a workable one.

 Wow nice, seems balanced. Almost wish I got that instead of what I have now.

 

You absolutely want to take D3 with K2 if you want calcium in your bones instead of your arteries.

 

 

Sinatra, an online cardiologist on K2

 

"Vitamin K-2 helps the liver produce clotting factors that remain inactive until called upon – so it won’t promote unnecessary or excess blood clotting"

 

 

Chris Masterjohn on K2

 

"Based on the current state of that research, I recommend 100-200 μg per day of vitamin K2 for healthy adults. Although most of the benefit probably comes from the first 100 μg, 200 μg is harmless and may provide additional benefit"

 

 

There are issues with warfarin

 

"If you are being treated with warfarin to avoid potential blood clots, this can not be combined with vitamin K2 unless the doctor does the extra work of including that in his calculations of the INR."

I'm wondering if taking a "megadose" of vitamin K2 will be retained by my body. Like, I heard mk4 had a more immediate effect and mk7 was more long term. 
In reality I can feel MK4 working very well  [especially in conjuncton w good vit d levels over time] and MK7 is not something I really care about.
But I got these 15 mg K2 MK4 pills, and I'm thinking: yes, I do want a high dose, but will my body save any of this "excess" for future purposes? or is it getting rid of the rest of the dose and not getting use out of it? I'd rather have a steady supply constantly going in me rather than it running out when my body needs it. Sorry if I'm not making sense lol I am high as fuck right now.  Basically my main point is that I hope that the 15 mg dose is giving me really good mileage.  [mk4]

[TheFountain]

No not really. Why? Because I take many other supplements that are anti-clotting. My theory is that Vit K simply helps balance out these other factors.

 

The formulation I use is called Vitamin K, Triple Play. And I take D3 along with that.

 

K1 100 mcg (phytonadione)

K2 400 mcg (menatetrenone MK-4)

K2 50 mcg (menaquinone MK-7)

 

I've taken it a long time about a year, so no observable ill effects. My theory seems to be a workable one.

 

Not bad but this is a better supplement, containing 2000 mcgs of K2 split between 1500 mcgs of Mk4, 181 mcgs of MK7, 11 Mcgs of mk6 and 43 mcgs of mk9!

 

On top of that you get a 2 Mg dose of K1 just for fun.

 

I know of no other supplement that has all that K packaged into a tight liquid gel formula for this price point. And all those different forms of K2!

 

https://www.amazon.c...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Oakman]

Not bad but this is a better supplement, containing 2000 mcgs of K2 split between 1500 mcgs of Mk4, 181 mcgs of MK7, 11 Mcgs of mk6 and 43 mcgs of mk9!

 

On top of that you get a 2 Mg dose of K1 just for fun.

 

I know of no other supplement that has all that K packaged into a tight liquid gel formula for this price point. And all those different forms of K2!

 

https://www.amazon.c...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Yes, this is higher dose if you want that, but Triple Play is $0.11/cap where LE's is $0.60/cap. Yikes!

[Gal220]

@TheFountain , take a look at LEFs health booster if you also take lutein/ zeaxanthin(eye support), and gamma E.  Nice combo pill.

 

I do like the triple play price though, might have to rethink things.  Is Bronson a good brand?

[TheFountain]

Yes, this is higher dose if you want that, but Triple Play is $0.11/cap where LE's is $0.60/cap. Yikes!

 

Yea but, Quality over quantity my friend. 

[Gal220]

There is a possible issue with mk-7. CIS vs Trans, something to be aware of - link 1 , link 2

[pamojja]

Yes, this is higher dose if you want that, but Triple Play is $0.11/cap where LE's is $0.60/cap. Yikes!

 

Yea but, Quality over quantity my friend. 

 

Well, at in average 9 times the dose of the individual Ks, LEFs has more quantity too.
 

But still not compared to KocentratedK, which at $0.75 per cap provides even 37 times the same K vitamins.

Edited by pamojja, 25 September 2020 - 08:08 AM.

[Oakman]

Posted Yesterday, 04:55 PM

Oakman, on 24 Sept 2020 - 4:03 PM, said:

Yes, this is higher dose if you want that, but Triple Play is $0.11/cap where LE's is $0.60/cap. Yikes!

 

Yea but, Quality over quantity my friend. 

 

Yes, agree absolutely...but a brand name, even LEF, doesn't always get you quality. Since cis & trans components are not typically spec'ed, it's a crap shoot mostly. Fortunately they supposedly have made sure it is now all trans, but it is a cautionary tail for sure.

 

https://omegavia.com...-k2-supplement/

 

Life Extension Super K Elite

 

For several years, I took and recommended Life Extension’s Super K formula. It has both MK-4 + MK-7 and the price is right. Not surprisingly, it was and still is the most popular K2 supplement in America. But then I sent Life Extension Super K formula to the lab in Norway can measure both cis and trans isomers of MK-7. I was not pleased with the result. Only about a quarter of the MK-7 was in the preferred trans form. The label says 200 mcg of MK-7. Only 54.8 mcg of that is trans MK-7. That meant I’d have to take four pills to get 200 mcg of MK-7 and that would give me way too much K1. What if the lab in Norway was wrong? Just to be sure, I sent another Life Extension K2 bottle to Eurofins Lab here in California. The result was almost identical – this time, they found 53.5 mcg of trans MK-7 per pill, about a quarter of what is declared on the label.

Edited by Oakman, 25 September 2020 - 01:57 PM.

[Gal220]

Not sure when, but LEF claims there MK-7 is only trans now and specifies it on the label.  However Im not convinced its all that vital over MK-4

 

 

This article takes the opposing view from myself, but not convincingly

If cheese and natto are really the only natural sources of it, how essential can it be?

[TheFountain]

Well, at in average 9 times the dose of the individual Ks, LEFs has more quantity too.
 

But still not compared to KocentratedK, which at $0.75 per cap provides even 37 times the same K vitamins.

 

You are missing the different chains of MK7 the supplement I posted has, and also, the form it has taken. It's liquid gel bro. Way more absorbable than the powdered capsule form. 

Edited by TheFountain, 30 September 2020 - 04:25 AM.

[TheFountain]

 

Posted Yesterday, 04:55 PM

Oakman, on 24 Sept 2020 - 4:03 PM, said:

 

 

Yes, agree absolutely...but a brand name, even LEF, doesn't always get you quality. Since cis & trans components are not typically spec'ed, it's a crap shoot mostly. Fortunately they supposedly have made sure it is now all trans, but it is a cautionary tail for sure.

 

https://omegavia.com...-k2-supplement/

 

Life Extension Super K Elite

 

For several years, I took and recommended Life Extension’s Super K formula. It has both MK-4 + MK-7 and the price is right. Not surprisingly, it was and still is the most popular K2 supplement in America. But then I sent Life Extension Super K formula to the lab in Norway can measure both cis and trans isomers of MK-7. I was not pleased with the result. Only about a quarter of the MK-7 was in the preferred trans form. The label says 200 mcg of MK-7. Only 54.8 mcg of that is trans MK-7. That meant I’d have to take four pills to get 200 mcg of MK-7 and that would give me way too much K1. What if the lab in Norway was wrong? Just to be sure, I sent another Life Extension K2 bottle to Eurofins Lab here in California. The result was almost identical – this time, they found 53.5 mcg of trans MK-7 per pill, about a quarter of what is declared on the label.

 

 

Might it have something to do with an inundation or lack thereof, of the different chemical chain variables of MK7? Which the supplement I posted addresses by having all 3 forms in addition to mK4 AND K1? 

[pamojja]

You are missing the different chains of MK7 the supplement I posted has, and also, the form it has taken. It's liquid gel bro. Way more absorbable than the powdered capsule form. 

 

Only has additional 11mcg of K2-mk6 and 43mcg of K2-9, which are such low amounts easily to get from food (cheeses). Additionally these different forms can be converted between each in the body. And there aren't any pappers about any advantages on supplementing mk6 and mk9 additional to mk7 yet. K-vitamins are best aborbed with fatty meals. So not really missing anything here.

 

Anyway, my only vitamin K1 blood-test (after 48 hours of no intake, and before starting to supplement KoncentratedK) showed 9.9 µg/l, normal would be 0.22-2.28! But my ubiome also showed only 35% than usual in vitamin K1 to K2 metabolising gut bacteria in my case.
 

 Screenshot_2020-09-30 Why You Need Vitamin K2 and How To Get It by Chris Masterjohn.png   561.73KB   0 downloads

Edited by pamojja, 30 September 2020 - 08:40 AM.