43 replies to this topic

[syr_]

I recently bought a Continuous Glucose Monitor.  (Dexcom G6). 

Could have just tested HbA1c, it correlates with the avg glucose of the last 15 days.

[johnhemming]

I accept that an alternative to knowing my blood glucose every 5 minutes including when I am asleep for a period of 10 days is to have an average figure for that period.  However, I cannot understand why it would be preferable.

 

I am currently doing a test by dropping Berberine on a daily basis.  It may be that i will see a change in my blood sugar levels as a consequence.  That I would not be able to see with just one HbA1c figure.

 

I may try having Berberine for a period of 2 days then stopping it and doing this for a whlie to see if there is a reliable difference from Berberine.

 

At the moment dropping Berberine has been associated with a small reduction in blood glucose, but that could be either a trend error on the monitor or linked to the fact I had covid last week and my metabolism is shifting back to normal.

[sensei]

It's an MAOI. While reversible this could pose problems in people taking dopaminergic drugs.

These drugs include anti-depressants, mood stabilizers, aantipsychotics, all amphetamines and others.

Berberine Selectively Inhibits Human Monoamine Oxidase B: Kinetics And Mechanism Of Inhibition.

https://www.thieme-c...offsetWidth=360

[johnhemming]

deleted

Edited by johnhemming, 04 February 2022 - 05:57 PM.

[johnhemming]

 

As a result of a question asked in another forum I have done some comparisons to see if there was any obvious results from taking Berberine.  That gives the above image.

I have six days of data that is comparable. The first two days I took 1 capsule of Berberine at 8.30am, the second two days I took none and the third two days I took 2 capsules of Berberine at 8.30am.

I have not included the other days of the session because I only calibrated the CGM part way through and it was adjusted by about 2 mmol/l. That makes those readings not comparable.   I did not calibrate the CGM during this period because I am not sure that calibration is that consistent and hence I preferred to have comparable relatively data rather than data that  might have been more reliable on an absolute basis.

If anything the blood sugar was lower on days I didn't take Berberine, but I have not tried to control that many variables and I would say that the results were not conclusive.  My breakfast is consistent and my lunch is also consistent.  At times I walk rapidly to my office which takes the blood sugar temporarily down.  I am drinking alcohol most nights, varying amounts.  My dinner varies, but I avoid high GI foods and don't eat a lot of carbs.  I normally go to sleep between 9 and 10pm.

The precision of the CGM is 0.1 mmol/l and I do have a CSV file of the results.  I am quite irritated by the difficulty of making Excel behave for charts so I am thinking of writing  a java program to report on heart rate and blood sugar as well as other things.  However, I know that will take me a few hours so I have not done it yet.

I have now ended this CGM session.  I will do another session of 10 days in the future, but not immediately as I want to think carefully about how best to structure the session in terms of foods/supplements etc.

I must admit that I find the data quite interesting.  All I have had previously is random blood sugar tests (the most recent of which was 3.5 mmol/l and an HbA1c which was 30 mmol/mol.  Those were May last year, but are not inconsistent with these results.

Edited by johnhemming, 04 February 2022 - 05:58 PM.

[syr_]

I accept that an alternative to knowing my blood glucose every 5 minutes including when I am asleep for a period of 10 days is to have an average figure for that period.  However, I cannot understand why it would be preferable.

 

I am currently doing a test by dropping Berberine on a daily basis.  It may be that i will see a change in my blood sugar levels as a consequence.  That I would not be able to see with just one HbA1c figure.

 

I just meant that it would have been cheaper and less burdensome for you. But IF you are past the borderline level, you do need to test both.

Edited by syr_, 05 February 2022 - 04:51 PM.

[johnhemming]

 But you are past the borderline level, you do need to test both.

 

My understanding of the figures is that I am neither diabetic nor pre-diabetic, but I still think it is worth knowing how my body responds to glucose in some detail.  I am currently planning a next session of CGM where I will plan particular meals to see what the glucose profile is.  I am particularly pleased with the profile of my lunch which is a soup mixture including chia seeds.  That seems to have no real impact on my blood glucose which seems particularly good.  I will probably try a different CGM system to find out the best options.

[syr_]

Oh so it's just prevention. Well, I dont think I would pin my fingers 3 times a day or put a fixed device in my body unless I were already prediabetic and at high risk.

My endo didn't even prescribed a HbA1c test to me, after seeing 106 and then 100 fasting glucose. But i'll keep checking it every 3 months or so to see if it keeps improving with the supplements I'm taking. I obviously want to go back to 85-90 I had in my twenties.

 

I can't stand berberine bitterness so I never took it -for better or worse- after I tried once

The stuff I'm considering in random order is an apple extract (of a local variety which has show also benefits for hair, called AnnurComplex), bitter melon extract, Fisetin, with a better diet of course.

Have you tried any of this? Also, what about R-ALA?

[johnhemming]

Oh so it's just prevention. Well, I dont think I would pin my fingers 3 times a day or put a fixed device in my body unless I were already prediabetic and at high risk.

 

It isn't prevention.  I was interested to know my glucose blood sugar during the day.  

 

https://www.buckinst...elated-disease/

 

There is a lot of research that points to the effect of glucose on broader health.  I am very happy to know more about how it affects me personally.  There is a cost, but health has to have some value.  There is a bit of effort, but realistically no substantial pain (doing the calibration took a few finger sticks because I needed to learn how to do it, but they don't hurt that much).

[ta5]

Another possible downside to Berberine: Leaky gut.

 

Physiol Rep. 2022 Apr;10(7):e15237.

Concerted action of berberine in the porcine intestinal epithelial model IPEC-J2: Effects on tight junctions and apoptosis

Valeria Cornelius, Linda Droessler, Elisa Boehm, Salah Amasheh 

The plant alkaloid berberine has been shown to have many beneficial effects on human health. This has led to its use as a treatment for various cancer types, obesity, and diabetes. Moreover, a described barrier-strengthening effect in human cancer cell lines indicates that it might be useful for the treatment of inflammatory bowel disease. Detailed information regarding its effects on intestinal epithelium remains limited. In our current study, we describe the impact of berberine on a non-transformed porcine small intestinal epithelial cell model, IPEC-J2. Incubation of IPEC-J2 monolayers with berberine revealed dose- and time-dependent effects on barrier properties. A viability assay confirmed the specific effect of berberine on the apoptotic pathway, paralleled by the internalization of the sealing tight-junction (TJ) proteins claudin-1, claudin-3, and occludin within 6 h. Hence, the barrier function of the cells was reduced, as shown by the reduced transepithelial electrical resistance and the increased [3 H]-D-Mannitol flux. A decrease of claudin-1, claudin-3, and occludin expression was also observed after 24 h, whereas ZO-1 expression was not significantly changed. These data indicate an early effect on both cell viability and barrier integrity, followed by a general effect on TJ architecture. The intracellular co-localization of claudin-1 and occludin or claudin-3 and occludin points to an initial induction of apoptosis accompanied by the internalization of sealing TJ proteins. Although barrier strengthening has been reported in cancerogenic epithelial models, our results show a barrier-weakening action, which represents a new aspect of the effect of berberine on epithelia. These results agree with the known toxic potential of plant alkaloids in general and show that berberine is also capable of exerting adverse effects in the intestinal epithelium.

Keywords: IPEC-J2; apoptosis; barrier function; berberine; claudins; tight junction.

PMID 35384371

[Benko]

 

Another possible downside to Berberine: Leaky gut.

 

Physiol Rep. 2022 Apr;10(7):e15237.

Concerted action of berberine in the porcine intestinal epithelial model IPEC-J2: Effects on tight junctions and apoptosis

 

 

 

"in the porcine intestinal epithelial model"

 

​When deciding whether any experimental results apply to us, experiments with human subjects are the most relevant, animals less relevant (and results in rats are notorious for not panning out in humans) and in vitro/cell culture/cell models, good luck.  For fun google adverse effects in various supplements e.g. vit c and you'll find adverse found on experiments  in cell culture.

Edited by Benko, 09 April 2022 - 01:47 AM.

[CynthesisToday]

And then there are these studies:

 

https://sci-hub.se/h...ote.2009.02.005 "The effect of berberine in vitro on tight junctions in human Caco-2 intestinal

epithelial cells" (2009) From abstract: "These findings showed the first time that berberine could reduce epithelial gut permeability, and might help explain the possible mechanisms of anti-diarrhea activity of berberine."

 

https://doi.org/10.1...al.pone.0061944 "Amelioration of IFN-γ and TNF-α-Induced Intestinal Epithelial Barrier Dysfunction by Berberine via Suppression of MLCK-MLC Phosphorylation Signaling Pathway" From the abstract: "Taken together, it is suggested that berberine attenuates IFN-γ and TNF-α-induced intestinal epithelial barrier dysfunction by inhibiting the signaling pathway of MLCK-dependent MLC phosphorylation mediated by HIF-1α." and the introductory text: "Berberine is one of the main constituents of Coptidis rhizome that has widely been used as a traditional drug to treat gastrointestinal disorders such as gastroenteritis and diarrhea for thousands of years in China. Berberine has so far been viewed as a drug with pleiotropic biochemical and pharmacological effects, including anti-inflammatory, anti-bacterial, anti-parasitic, anti-oxidatic, an- ti-apoptotic, and anti-tumor actions [20–25]."

 

I am about to start Berberine for gut problems so needed to check this. I'm going with the use in humans for gut problems "for thousands of years in China" efficacy and the studies on mechanisms for why it seems to help as in studies above. 

 

Thanks for the porcine study if only to trigger a deeper search. Many more studies on positive effect berberine on endothelial and epithelial cell tight junctions that the above evident in the search results.

[ta5]

The full text of the study I linked to references both studies above from Gu and Cao, and list other studies showing a barrier-strengthening effect. The study was basically to understand better how it worked.

A barrier-strengthening effect of berberine has been demonstrated in experiments on cultures of human intestinal epithelial cells....

 

​Therefore, berberine is a promising candidate as a treatment against intestinal diseases that are accompanied by inflammation e.g. inflammatory bowel diseases....

 

Our aim, in this study, was to analyze the effect of berberine on the barrier function of the porcine small intestinal cell line IPEC-J2.... Moreover, as the human and porcine intestine have many anatomical and physiological similarities, and as both species are omnivorous, the porcine intestine and the IPEC-J2 cell line represent a useful model for the human intestine in health and disease and with regard to susceptibility to affecting agents (Nossol et al., 2015; Zakrzewski et al., 2013). In this study, we aimed to analyze the effect of berberine on the barrier function of the porcine small intestinal, non-transformed cell line IPEC-J2 and our hypothesis was that this could be characterized in detail reflecting intestinal epithelial physiology.

 

But, the results were unexpected.

 

In contrast to the previously reported barrier-strengthening effect of berberine in Caco-2 and HT29/B6 cells (Amasheh et al., 2010; Gu et al., 2009), we observed a decrease of the TEER in IPEC-J2 cells after 6 h of incubation with 200 µM of berberine.

 

The authors suggest trying lower concentrations of berberine.

 

Although the susceptibility of IPEC-J2 cells to various agents can be compared with that of human models (Gunzel & Yu, 2013; Schierack et al., 2006), a higher sensitivity of IPEC J2 cells for berberine compared with cancerogenic epithelial cell models such as Caco-2 or HT29/B6 cannot be completely ruled out. Therefore, in future approaches, experiments should be extended to even lower concentrations of berberine. For the time being, however, a beneficial effect cannot be concluded for porcine jejunal cells. Further research is needed to clarify and establish the signaling of apoptosis induction by berberine in IPEC-J2 cells and intestinal tissue in more detail.

 

[CynthesisToday]

Another possible mechanism for efficacy of berberine is modification of the intestinal lumenal environment (increase A. muciniphila) and epithelial cell type (increase # of goblet cells):

 

https://doi.org/10.1...pha.2021.111595 " Berberine, a potential prebiotic to indirectly promote Akkermansia growth through stimulating gut mucin secretion" (2021) In mice.

 

"In this work, we demonstrated that BBR is a potent prebiotic of A. muciniphila. It can stimulate A. muciniphila growth in a dose- and time-dependent manner in vivo but not in vitro. Our results further revealed that the A. muciniphila-enhancing action of BBR may be achieved by stimulating mucin production in host intestine, although it needs further verification in Muc2-/- mice. We also found that BBR could increase the fecal contents of polyamines which have been reported to be able to promote goblet cells proliferation and differentiation and thus may increase mucin production."