37 replies to this topic

[Mind]

The LongeCity Aging Biomarker Study (LABS) continues this year. Results from last year can be found here. (Member area)

 

Grant money has been allocated to provide free testing to LongeCity members. There is enough funding to test everyone who participated last year, or even more, depending upon what tests are purchased.

 

myDNAge has agreed to provide a discount of their DNA methylation test for LongeCity members participating in the project in 2019.

 

It is unclear whether or not the other two testing providers from last year will offer discounts again this year (Teloyears, Osiris Green).

 

If anyone has a suggestion as to a low-cost biomarker test we could add this year, please comment in this thread. Low cost would be less than $300.

 

_________________________________________________________

 

At a minimum, we will continue the project in the same manner as last year because there is great value in measuring the same cohort for several years. However, we are always looking to improve. Last year, participants posted their rejuvenation efforts and test results in the LongeCity forum. This open reporting (in the member area) is a key aspect of the project. Sharing data is helpful to the community at large. However, a more structured database of the project data would be ideal. There has been some discussion about creating a user friendly data entry and storage platform. If anyone has an idea in this regard, please comment here. Using free software would be ideal, but there is grant money available to create something specific for this project.

Edited by Mind, 08 July 2019 - 08:59 AM.

[Bruce Klein]

Please see the overview draft doc for LABS here: 

 

https://docs.google....tXggnrh6_w/edit

 

 

Edited by Bruce Klein, 15 July 2019 - 03:53 PM.

[Mind]

One thing we would like is input upon is a potential moniker for the project. Acronyms for long term projects are quite valuable for marketing.

 

Last year, it was just called "Aging Biomarkers"

 

As you can see from the title of this thread, I have suggested "LongeCity Aging Biomarkers Study" or LABS. In order too make sure people don't get the "LABS" confused with the LongeCity Affiliate Labs, perhaps it could be called "LongeCity LABS" - where LABS stands for "Longitudinal Aging Biomarker Study".

 

 

[Bruce Klein]

Slight preference for LABS = LongeCity Aging Biomarker Study... for simplicity, 

however... LongeCity Longitudinal Aging Biomarker Study could work.  

[QuestforLife]

I would echo previous commenters that some standard blood works (that can incidentally be used to calculate PhenoAge), would be a good addition to the more direct methylation age.  

 

I'll aim to do both this year, in addition to Life Lenth's telomere test. 

[Bruce Klein]

Mind,

 

I agree with QuestforLife... PhenoAge is worthwhile.  Concerning Life Length's telomere test, not sure it's worth reimbursement as there are previously reported issues. Thus far, I've narrowed key biomarkers down based on possible effectiveness (with special attention to ongoing measure), reasonable cost and ease of attainment... to the following 5 in order of importance:

1. Epigenetic Age - by MyDNAge (Up to $300) 
2. Blood Panel Age - by Levine's PhenoAge (Blood Panel, Up to $200 - many may already have their blood #'s) 
3. Heart Health Age - by iHeart Pulse Oximeter & Aortic Stiffness test (Item cost: $150) 
4. Heart Health - Systolic/Diastolic and Pulse (Item cost: $50 - many may already have a blood pressure machine) 
5. Glucose - average morning measures (Item cost: $30) 

More on this w/in the Overview doc (which links to Questionnaire, with more info): 

https://docs.google....tXggnrh6_w/edit

[Droplet]

I am definitely up for doing a test again if Longecity can pay for it, I just need to be directed to whichever you think is best and most useful to our aims and research. I unfortunately cannot pay myself for one test or additional tests, as those tests are expensive and I am currently employed in a minimum wage job.

 

I would be really intrigued to see if there are any changes to my previous result, which was really good. Please be aware that unlike many members, I do not really have much scientific knowledge. I do however want to help out and don't mind giving samples for science and my own curiosity.

 

It would probably be really hard to do but its a shame that the samples cannot be passed from whichever company we go with back to a lab affiliated with Longecity for further investigations if this could even be useful. Would be an added motivation perhaps if people then got told if their specimens yielded anything interesting. I would consent to this and whether your results are good or bad, they potentially have lessons to teach us. What about trying to get some sort of reward for those partaking such as a discount on something or a small gift? I would do it for free but bribery always gets people on board.

Edited by Droplet, 15 July 2019 - 08:23 PM.

[Mind]

I am definitely up for doing a test again if Longecity can pay for it, I just need to be directed to whichever you think is best and most useful to our aims and research. I unfortunately cannot pay myself for one test or additional tests, as those tests are expensive and I am currently employed in a minimum wage job.

 

I would be really intrigued to see if there are any changes to my previous result, which was really good. Please be aware that unlike many members, I do not really have much scientific knowledge. I do however want to help out and don't mind giving samples for science and my own curiosity.

 

It would probably be really hard to do but its a shame that the samples cannot be passed from whichever company we go with back to a lab affiliated with Longecity for further investigations if this could even be useful. Would be an added motivation perhaps if people then got told if their specimens yielded anything interesting. I would consent to this and whether your results are good or bad, they potentially have lessons to teach us. What about trying to get some sort of reward for those partaking such as a discount on something or a small gift? I would do it for free but bribery always gets people on board.

 

This is structured as a member benefit. LongeCity will reimburse everyone up to a certain dollar amount, which will be at least $150, but probably more. This will cover at least one test.

[Mind]

Please see the overview draft doc for LABS here: 

 

https://docs.google....tXggnrh6_w/edit

 

This is pretty well-written. The one thing I would change at this point is the terminology stating "information will be shared publicly". Many people are very concerned about privacy and will not participate if their real name or other identifying information is displayed.

 

Last year, in order to provide a level of security and privacy, all results were reported in the member section of the forum. This does not guarantee information is completely secure, of course, but everyone who enters the members forum (Immortality Institute), is required to click on an agreement to NOT share information from the member forum.

 

So, I would suggest only anonymized charts/summaries be "publicly available". Maybe it could be written like this:

 

"Participants agree to share test results (or fill out the questionnaire for non-members) and their chronological age in the LABS Member forum at LongeCity. Anonymized group results and analysis will be shared publicly"

 

 Perhaps there could be a members questionnaire in the protected forum and a open questionnaire for other participants - just thinking out loud here. Would appreciate other opinions.

[Bruce Klein]

Thanks, Mind.

 

Tend to think most Members will be ok with linking their Username to their data. 

 

Nevertheless, it's an important point... I've added a Question to the Questionnaire: 

 

Public Data + Username (or Anonymous)?

 - Yes, my LongeCity username can be linked to my data publicly. 

 - No, please use an Anonymous # for my data publicly. 

 

I've updated the wording in the doc : 

• For the advancement of longevity science, all data will be made public with an Anonymous # for ID purposes. If you’d like to have your LongeCity username associated with your results, this can be included. 

...and have created a new Public Results s/s reflecting this change. 

Edited by Bruce Klein, 15 July 2019 - 10:36 PM.

[Droplet]

I'm okay with linking my username to results but I don't want my real name to be made public here. As long as I use a pseudonym, I'm happy to share data.

[Bruce Klein]

Thanks, Droplet... I've added your username to the public results list now: 

https://docs.google....wlZA/edit#gid=0

[bobolander]

Good morning Bruce - I see now why you didn't include Teloyears in the spreadsheet - too much scatter.  Last year my telomere length was 0.9 (age 66) this year's length 0.68 (age 77) That's a big difference in one year.  Also, please include my user name, which happens to be my real name.  The IHeart machine is on order.

[Bruce Klein]

Bob... awesome about the iHeart device and good morning to you as well. I've also dropped Aging.ai for similar reasons as telomeres.

 

Please keep in mind that we'll be in promo mode for LABS soon... likely sometime in August. Having your voice captured as an advocate in some way would be great... anything from a brief blurb to full interview would be quite helpful... as a sort of representative view from the LongeCity Member side of the initiative, and how this may benefit you and how you see the project importance.  

 

Anyway, something to ponder. 

 

[Bruce Klein]

Mind...  with good ideas from Bob,

I've narrowed necessary items to 2 with retail cost of around $500 total:

 

1. Epigenetic Age - via MyDNAge (up to $300) 

2. Blood Panel Age - via Levine's PhenoAge (Blood Panel, up to $200)  

  

For one more area...Lifestyle, I've updated the LABS Health Questions to extract an estimated biological age based on the lifestyle answers...

so LABS now has 3 Age Estimators ... all focused on different aspects.

 

LEF's Blood Panel provides HbA1C, a better measure of long-term glucose.

 

Updated info in overview and questionnaire:

https://docs.google....tXggnrh6_w/edit

 

 

 

 

Edited by Bruce Klein, 21 July 2019 - 09:14 PM.

[Bruce Klein]

Bob.. taking your suggestions to heart, and really focusing on making the s/s more easily understandable... I've updated things here:

https://docs.google....wlZA/edit#gid=0

 

Essentially...  3 Age Estimators are:

 

1. Epigenetic Age via MyDNAge

2. Blood Panel Age via PhenoAge

3. Lifestyle Age via LABS Q's

 

In order of perceived accuracy. And ongoing, we can compare these with other members. Some of the other measures (RFM, HbAic, Reaction time) are nice to have for comparison... but these age estimators are what could give a good measure over time. 

Edited by Bruce Klein, 21 July 2019 - 09:15 PM.

[Mind]

Great suggestions Bruce.

 

I contacted Kevin about OpenOme testing. The good news is that the basic test would be sub-$300. Not all of the metabolites tested have been associated with aging, but the data would be good well into the future. Need to do a phlebotomy.

 

Also, do you have a link where I can investigate "PhenoAge" iin more detail.

[Bruce Klein]

First two articles give a fairly good overview... 

 

Will be good to connect with Morgan and John for their guidance as well. 

 

Prof. Morgan Levine's LEAF interview:

https://www.leafscie...-morgan-levine/

 

John Cramer's post about the Levine PhenoAge calculcator: 

https://forum.age-re...-phenotypic-age

 

Levine's slides: 

https://gero.usc.edu...AA/1.Levine.pdf

 

Morgan Levine's PhenoAge publication:  

"An epigenetic biomarker of aging for lifespan and healthspan"

Aging (Albany NY). 2018 Apr; 10(4): 573–591. M. E. Levine, et al,

https://www.ncbi.nlm...cles/PMC5940111

 

John G. Cramer (Prof Emeritus, Univ. of Washington)

Original PhenoAge s/s creator:

https://en.wikipedia.../John_G._Cramer

 

 

Feb 2019, Josh Mitteldorf,  "Progress in Methylation-based Aging Clocks" 

https://joshmitteldo...d-aging-clocks 

Edited by Bruce Klein, 25 July 2019 - 01:00 AM.

[Bruce Klein]

For Kevin, if we had to make a decision about either / or... PhenoAge or OpenOme for this near-term testing... would certainly be open to going with OpenOme. Nice benefit of only needing a one-time blood draw for metabolites.

 

Adding more complexity to the equation... but worth noting: 

 

If going for a stripped down cost version test for PhenoAge, there are two LEF panels (CRP and CBC) that are total less than $100 that will secure all the data needed for the 9 markers ... which would shave another $100 or so off the earlier LEF  

 

CBC $35 - https://www.lifeexte...-CBC-Blood-Test 

CRP $42 - https://www.lifeexte...diac-Blood-Test

 

vs

 

Aging Panel $200 - https://www.lifeexte...8/INE801E/index

 

 

Anyway... Mind, lot of variables. 

 

At minimum.... MyDNAge seems essential. 

 

The others, I'm not so sure. 

 

However.... getting a comprehensive blood panel yearly seems pretty damn essential for any longevity + rejuvenation obsessive... and working to standardize this with LEF's impressive Age Reversal Network panel seems most logical. If we emphasis this, members will then have a standardized reference going forward that could be used to back-check with any future new aging studies. 

Edited by Bruce Klein, 25 July 2019 - 01:16 AM.

[serengetilion]

I wanted to participate in last year's but having my own money was the issue. It's a darn shame it always comes down to money. If one don't have it they can almost forget about doing anything. Just like Aubrey DeGrey and other's quest to prolong the lifespan of humans, it will only be available to the rich. Just saying.

[albedo]

Any consideration on running also aging.ai (v1.0 or 3.0)? I run a comparison on my data with Levine's Phenotypic Age. See also the LC thread on Biological Age, e.g. here

[Mind]

 

First two articles give a fairly good overview... 

 

Will be good to connect with Morgan and John for their guidance as well. 

 

Prof. Morgan Levine's LEAF interview:

https://www.leafscie...-morgan-levine/

 

John Cramer's post about the Levine PhenoAge calculcator: 

https://forum.age-re...-phenotypic-age

 

Levine's slides: 

https://gero.usc.edu...AA/1.Levine.pdf

 

Morgan Levine's PhenoAge publication:  

"An epigenetic biomarker of aging for lifespan and healthspan"

Aging (Albany NY). 2018 Apr; 10(4): 573–591. M. E. Levine, et al,

https://www.ncbi.nlm...cles/PMC5940111

 

John G. Cramer (Prof Emeritus, Univ. of Washington)

Original PhenoAge s/s creator:

https://en.wikipedia.../John_G._Cramer

 

 

Feb 2019, Josh Mitteldorf,  "Progress in Methylation-based Aging Clocks" 

https://joshmitteldo...d-aging-clocks 

 

 

Okay, so is the PhenoAge spreadsheet/calculator free? Is the only expense the LEF blood tests?

[Mind]

On tests:

 

Our participants will get a discount from myDNAge and Kevin's Openome.

 

I have not heard back from Teloyears yet.

 

LEF will not give an extra discount on their tests for our study participants but their blood tests are already discounted and well within the projects' financial ability to reimburse members.

[Bruce Klein]

Concerning Aging.ai... we did some experimentation and found wide variability. It may improve with time, but at current we're leaning towards narrowing down to other biomarkers. 

 

Concerning PhenoAge... for self experimentation non-profit work, making reference to the creators is a minimum. The s/s was created by John Cramer based on the work of Morgan Levine. I've reached out to both for consideration.

[albedo]

Concerning Aging.ai... we did some experimentation and found wide variability. It may improve with time, but at current we're leaning towards narrowing down to other biomarkers. 

 

Concerning PhenoAge... for self experimentation non-profit work, making reference to the creators is a minimum. The s/s was created by John Cramer based on the work of Morgan Levine. I've reached out to both for consideration.

Thank you. Agree. I do also find longitudinally along about 15 yeas a greater variability of Aging.ai v1 (and v3) when compared to Phenotypic Age.

[Bruce Klein]

Dr. Morgan Levine has replied and given consent to her work being implemented via this research project.

Edited by Bruce Klein, 14 August 2019 - 03:13 PM.

[Mind]

Dr. Morgan Levine has replied and given consent to her work being implemented via this research project.

 

What does this mean? How does it work?

 

Participants purchase the LEF blood tests. Then - does each person have to contact Dr. Levin in order to enter data into the PhenoAge calculator/spreadsheet? Or do they just send the data to Phenoage and their personnel will enter the data? Is the result (PhenoAge) then freely available to be posted in the LongeCity forum and into the BASE database?

Edited by Mind, 14 August 2019 - 06:15 PM.

[Bruce Klein]

The PhenoAge calculator is w/in the BASE questionnaire. 

 

Thus... 

 

1. Get LEF blood panel 

2. Complete BASE questionnaire (add LEF blood panel results) 

3. PhenoAge is automatically calculated 

 

Fairly simple ;-)

 

[albedo]

The PhenoAge calculator is w/in the BASE questionnaire. 

 

...

Just for clarity, assuming I recollect well at the moment (but can send links), the calculation should be called "Phenotypic Age" as per Dr Levine's publications. She uses PhenoAge for the "DNAm PhenoAge".

[Bruce Klein]

Ah, good point... I've updated to 'Phenotypic Age' within the draft documents. 

 

Yeah... so, to be clear... one will input their blood marker #'s w/in the s/s: 

 

https://docs.google....t#gid=702746468

 

Each participant will have their own s/s to complete (as they gather their data). 

Edited by Bruce Klein, 20 August 2019 - 03:01 PM.